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unknown camera, no lens

Created by okynek on 11/6/2007 11:27:39 AM
Last Edited by Luiz Paracampo on 11/5/2017 1:49:13 PM  
Located in
Still Cameras > Other Cameras

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Vladislav Kern
Vlad

USA
3976 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Nov 06 2007 :  1:46:33 PM  Show Profile  Visit Vlad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
That's an interesting piece.. What indication does it have that it was Soviet manufacture? Any writing anywhere?

Vlad.
okynek
759 Posts
Posted - Nov 06 2007 :  2:35:41 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Except that shatter is Moment and story from seller, camera has no indication about it origin. Camera only has few numbers pouched inside, presumably serial number.
The seller story such: in 90-th they bought military warehouse in Moldavia (as I remember). Warehouse was full of old military close. No weapons or other equipment. Only old military uniforms, buckles, shoes(sapogi), coats, heats, etc. On one of the shelves they found 7 cameras as shown. Probably because warehouse belong to Air force they tell me that this cameras from Russian bombers. They move all what they found to US and merely put all on eBay. I lost track of this seller. He probably still selling old military gear from USSR: “pilotki”, “gimnosterki”, “sheneli”... No more cameras.
But camera most defiantly Russian. But the way it made and tons of grease("solidol":) I found inside.
I’m only not sure that camera was used on airplane. It was so dirty and it is very heavy - probably 5 kg(10 lb). Better suited for a tank. I was asked on few forums about this camera. Have no replays. May be someone here can put a light?
I have question to the experts who may read this post: why this camera designed only for round pictures? And why it has red glass permanently installed behind the shatter?
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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
1741 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Nov 06 2007 :  3:27:39 PM  Show Profile  Visit Luiz Paracampo's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Okynek
Welcome to our group! This camera is really unknown to me! Very interesting. Moment shutter and red filter. The red filter means that this camera was designed for red and infra-red photography spectrum. - Pehaps a life surveying camera meant to discover hidden people or special vegetals. This same technique is still used by police to denote cocaine or merijuana fields. These emits particular infra red wave lengths and it is always used through flight research method, so this stresses the camera possibilities to be used on planes. Acording to the pictures I did see no film advance control so this probably should be coupled in an external motor drive for cadence serial pictures.
LP
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okynek
759 Posts
Posted - Nov 06 2007 :  4:32:25 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yes, you right, on the front of the camera special coupling for electric drive or handle. I made primitive handle for this coupling. So when you move handle down it advance the film, and on the way back it cocked the shatter and fire. Shatter is modified a little to fire right after it cocked. On the bottom of the camera special gear to change shatter speed. And on the side is frame counter, up to 50 frames. Mechanically camera pretty simple, it literally has 10 gears and pulleys. Probably to be easy to serve on the field. Round pictures maybe for fisheye lense. It all I can say.
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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
1741 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Nov 06 2007 :  7:35:30 PM  Show Profile  Visit Luiz Paracampo's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Round picture cameras not necessary for fish eye.
Ophtalmologig cameras, Microscope cameras, Powerfull telephoto for observation, Astronomic cameras, Endoscopic cameras for medical and metallurgical research, also used to take round pictures. When kodak put in the market its first camera, it also took round pictures, so the photogapher had no needs to exact frame the picture. Our eyes also have a round field of vision.
LP
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okynek
759 Posts
Posted - Nov 06 2007 :  9:32:34 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It’s so true. But it put me back on squire one in my investigation. Actually on squire two, because now we know that camera was used for infra red photography.
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
3976 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Nov 07 2007 :  3:30:58 PM  Show Profile  Visit Vlad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
This isn't the camera is it? Shape looks similar



Photo courtesy of Georgiy Abramov (www.photohistory.ru), page http://www.photohistory.ru/AirCameras.html
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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
1741 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Nov 07 2007 :  4:01:53 PM  Show Profile  Visit Luiz Paracampo's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Vlad
At first my congratulations for your "Sherlock" abilities. I believe you are very close to the truth. But....
The camera shown in your picture is a MAFA 13 from the middle of the '30 years- GOMZ production with center lens shutter. The camera of Okinek is clearly much more modern. "MOMENT" shutters begun to be made only after 1950 by KMZ. KMZ might probably be the maker of the "Okinek camera". I can't see the attachment (four screws), the counter and the two levers, but GOMZ produced in the pre-war period a very similar shutter to MOMENT I can't remember the name now.
The "Okinek camera" might be a more modern but similar production.
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
3976 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Nov 07 2007 :  4:08:09 PM  Show Profile  Visit Vlad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Thanks Luiz! I always love when you congratulate me ! Are you thinking of the GOMZ shutter on Fotokors?

Yes you are right if it is a moment shutter, but this may be a new model of this GOI camera... just a thought...

Vlad
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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
1741 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Nov 07 2007 :  4:19:03 PM  Show Profile  Visit Luiz Paracampo's Homepage  Reply with Quote
No! It is a shutter from 1 to 250 exactly the same manner of Moment. Both derived from The Rim-set Compur. I must re-read my Spravochnik Fotoliubiteliya....
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okynek
759 Posts
Posted - Nov 08 2007 :  10:18:37 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have many more pictures of the internal parts of the camera if anybody interesting. I made them when I did complete overhaul of the camera.
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
3976 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Nov 08 2007 :  10:21:03 AM  Show Profile  Visit Vlad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Post them if you can! I'm very intrigued about this camera!

But can you resize them to 800x600 first? Thanks!

Vlad.
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okynek
759 Posts
Posted - Nov 08 2007 :  11:06:45 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Vlad I'm not sure how to post pictures? How to put pictures inside the message? Or should I put them somewhere else and provide link?
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
3976 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Nov 08 2007 :  11:12:36 AM  Show Profile  Visit Vlad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Just edit your catalog entry that your posted for this camera and upload more images there.

So click on this:

http://www.ussrphoto.com/Wiki/default.asp?WikiCatID=19&ParentID=1&ContentID=387&Item=unknown+camera%2C+no+lens

Then Click on Edit this Entry on the top right

Thanks,

Vlad
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okynek
759 Posts
Posted - Nov 08 2007 :  11:19:17 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I can do this. Only one objection, are you sure Wiki catalog should have pictures of all this gears and internal parts and insides of the camera?
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
3976 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Nov 08 2007 :  11:22:23 AM  Show Profile  Visit Vlad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I got one answer for that Okynek - HECK YEAH! The more details we have about the camera in catalog the better!!!

Thanks,
Vlad
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okynek
759 Posts
Posted - Nov 08 2007 :  4:21:47 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I put more pictures. Just for you
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
3976 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Nov 08 2007 :  4:35:45 PM  Show Profile  Visit Vlad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Wow! Very nice thank you! It IS a very simple camera mechanically, but I am amazed how mechanically complex the moment shutter is! I've never seen it disassembled.
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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
1741 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Nov 08 2007 :  6:40:08 PM  Show Profile  Visit Luiz Paracampo's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Moment 24-S denotes production pf 1958/1959
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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
1741 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Nov 08 2007 :  6:46:14 PM  Show Profile  Visit Luiz Paracampo's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Now it is clear why round pictures. The shutter stays in the path of light rays coming from the lens so this limit the coverage. The red filter in inbuilt in the shutter.
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okynek
759 Posts
Posted - Nov 08 2007 :  10:58:25 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Two other cameras what I poses have Moment 1 shatter. Other then this they are the same. Red filter go when lens should be on Moskva camera.
This camera definitely just a piece of the bigger system. I believe camera was interchangeable. After all film exposed you put new camera in and old go to the lab for processing and reloading. Kind like one-time cameras for military
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okynek
759 Posts
Posted - Dec 08 2007 :  4:19:56 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I just putting this thread on the top because we have many new members now and maybe someone will open lid of the mystery of this camera? I actually surprise that this camera can not be found anywhere in books or on the Net. When I bought it, I was sure that many cameras like this laying around; probably because I got 3 of them so easy.
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1008 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Dec 08 2007 :  4:42:34 PM  Show Profile  Visit nightphoto's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Probably the red filter is for use with infra-red film, often used for surveillance or damage assessment photographs from heavy planes such as bombers. These kind of photographs are also often seen in round format for some reason.

A camera like this, even if heavy, is no problem for a bomber that carries many tons of bombs. Even some cameras made for fighters are quite heavy. I have seen other cameras like this and similar and they have been always identified as military use, for aero-photography.


Regards, Bill


Edited by - nightphoto on Dec 08 2007 4:44:17 PM
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mike
sovietcam
Switzerland
105 Posts
Posted - Dec 08 2007 :  6:06:28 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
okynek

how big is the length, the width and the height for the camera?
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okynek
759 Posts
Posted - Dec 08 2007 :  6:10:30 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It’s not a big camera. Little bit bigger and wider then Zenit E, let say.
I will make exact measurements if necessary.
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mike
sovietcam
Switzerland
105 Posts
Posted - Dec 08 2007 :  6:13:24 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
thanks

will see in my books for aerial cameras!
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mike
sovietcam
Switzerland
105 Posts
Posted - Dec 08 2007 :  6:22:09 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
and bill

a question for you!
all my aerial cameras have cassettes, give it others?
i find the camera is to little for a bomber ( when i see my farm-2 from a tu-16)!

regards, mike
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1008 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Dec 08 2007 :  7:44:38 PM  Show Profile  Visit nightphoto's Homepage  Reply with Quote

I don't really know, but the camera looks to be Military in some way. Maybe for a tank or smaller plane where 50 photos is enough and the camera is easily accessible to remove the film? These are only guesses on my part, from others I have seen like this one. There is even a similar camera in Princelle (page 203) but it seems to take a cassette and Princelle does not seem to know the exact use. Also, the other similar camera that I have seen did look like they took a cassette, so not exactly the same as this one.
I only said that the weight was nothing for a bomber because Okynek said, in his description of the camera in the WIKI that it seemed to heavy for an airplane to him.
The round film format is unusual and to me points to a type of photograph where the overall scene is not important, only the subject that is in the middle (like an aircraft or submarine sight with cross hairs). Also I would be pretty sure that the red filter is for infra-red photography, so that may be some clue.

Regards, Bill

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okynek
759 Posts
Posted - Dec 08 2007 :  10:01:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree with Bill about red filter for infrared photography. I also agreed that it can be used with periscope or shooting scope to verify target destroyed. I also think that this camera can be used with fish eye lens what make round pictures, like Peleng. I have some objection for using this camera on the airplane because it can be easily made much lighter then it is. I do not think Air force would accept such camera for serves. Also when I receive cameras they were literally full of dirt. Air planes usually much cleaner places. Camera most likely was forgotten in warehouse for many years so dirt may came from there. Seller insisted that cameras are from airplane. So I have to go with it, because no other information exists at this time.
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okynek
759 Posts
Posted - Jun 29 2008 :  10:01:47 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Looks like forth camera shows up on ebay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Russian-35mm-Periscope-Camera_W0QQitemZ180257066115QQihZ008QQcategoryZ67380QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
I wonder if member of our forum is a lucky new owner?
Interesting to see pictures. It seems this camera is a little bit different then what I poses.
And still no any definitive information where it was used.

Edited by - okynek on Jun 29 2008 10:08:45 PM
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