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 "Fake" FED KMZ on ebay
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Ulrich W.
uwittehh

Germany
640 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Mar 22 2010 :  5:04:41 PM  Show Profile  Visit uwittehh's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hello,

today a fake FED KMZ was on eBay Germany. It looks like the one Bill has. 1 minute before end of the auction it was around 50,- Euro, I wanted to bid about 200,- and it goes over 500,- Euro... Take a look, here is the number: 110506170951. I think it's a bit overprized for such a FED or what do you think?

Ulrich

http://fotos.cconin.de
Steve
Bull Halsey
USA
229 Posts
Posted - Mar 22 2010 :  5:50:52 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
22 bids from 4 bidders.
Over 500 Euro's.
Ulrich, You Won !!

Steve
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1008 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Mar 22 2010 :  6:02:39 PM  Show Profile  Visit nightphoto's Homepage  Reply with Quote

It is a "FED Arsenal" ... not "FED-KMZ". Similar to mine but much higher serial number ... mine is 00020 ...
this one looks like 00222.

Of course the price is always what two people are willing to pay at auction. So, it may be too expensive for many, but just the right price to own it for someone!

Regards, Bill

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Jacques M.
France
2018 Posts
Posted - Mar 23 2010 :  07:29:11 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

There is probably a problem with the lens which seems not completely screwed... So the infinity button could be in a wrong position.

An interesting camera, even if a fake.

Amitiés. Jacques.
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Zoom
564 Posts
Posted - Mar 23 2010 :  12:05:01 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.


An interesting camera, even if a fake.


Nothing interesting. A stupid fake camera is a stupid fake camera, no more.
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BERRY alain
mermoz37
France
814 Posts
Posted - Mar 23 2010 :  12:30:34 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
dear Zoom ...
With your permission

you cannot find such a fake on European , US , Japanese ou Chinese camera .
So , in my opinion , yes , I agree whith you ,it is a stupid fake camera but a typical craft work really staying in our time. For this reason a FSU camera collector should be interested by this handwork...

Let us not look for an intelligent reason to it
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1008 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Mar 23 2010 :  2:25:14 PM  Show Profile  Visit nightphoto's Homepage  Reply with Quote

Cameras can not be "stupid" ... this term is reserved only for people!

Many camera collectors, worldwide, have called many Soviet models "fakes" ... the ones that are exactly copied from Western cameras without improvement or change, mostly made by KMZ, LOMO, BeLOMO, and Arsenal.

If a fake camera is rare and sought after it will become valuable for a time. If a fake stamp is rare, it will also become valuable.

Regarding the FED-Arsenal, I can remember that I thought it was a fake after examining it, however I will have to re-examine it to remember why I thought it was fake. There are several writings that declare it to be authentic, incliding a small article on Novicon (Luiz), as well as an e-mail I received from Yuriy Davidenko in April 2006, with a theory he wrote, evidently relayed to him by an Arsenal employee, which said:

"Concerning cameras FED-Arsenal I heard from my familiar of Kiev who had the following version of this camera:
He thinks, that Berdsk city's factory of FED after war,firstly has been transferred to the factory of Arsenal in Kiev where the small party of these cameras has been produced.
Further the equipment for cameras FED has been returned back in the city of Kharkov, and the factory of Arsenal began the release of cameras Kiev.
The camera he had (№ 00070) has been presented to the employee of a factory the Arsenal for good work."

So I will re-examine my copy of the camera and see what I find.

Regards, Bill

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Ulrich W.
uwittehh
Germany
640 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Mar 23 2010 :  2:39:13 PM  Show Profile  Visit uwittehh's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Bill,

that would be interesting if you take a closer look at yours. I only wrote "fake" because I saw such a camera on your web site and Princelle also does not have it in his book. What about the new 1200 soviet cameras book? Is it in there? I don't have this book.

If it is not a fake the 500,- seem to be a good price :-)

Ulrich

http://fotos.cconin.de
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Ulrich W.
uwittehh
Germany
640 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Mar 23 2010 :  2:40:23 PM  Show Profile  Visit uwittehh's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Steve,

yes, I won :-) Not the camera, and I am not the seller, but you are right, I won 200 bucks that I did not spent in another camera :-D

Ulrich

http://fotos.cconin.de
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1008 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Mar 23 2010 :  2:51:19 PM  Show Profile  Visit nightphoto's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Ulrich,

Yes, the 1200 Soviet Cameras book has it on page 442. This is the first page of the chapter for Arsenal, so possibly they are classifying it as authentic ... however I can not read the Russian, so maybe one of our Russian language members will be kind enough to make an English translation of the entry for this camera and the information text just below the entry, which seems to have some Arsenal factory history for the end of the war.

Regards, Bill

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Steve
Bull Halsey
USA
229 Posts
Posted - Mar 23 2010 :  3:48:31 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'll be the first one to admit to owning a dozen or so "copies/fakes". I think it's quite a bit of work to achieve such interesting results. That said, I believe these cameras are worth only so much. This particular camera, like so many others, looks as if it had a new top cover with all new engravings. You may not see many of them but I'll bet you will see another not that far off. At over 500 Euro's, I'm sure there is another waiting in the wings.

Wasn't there a bit of an authenticity issue over the Yuri space camera?

I guess the more I think about it, if I REALLY wanted this camera, I'd bid till I won it. How I would feel a little later when I saw it again won at a lower sum .......... not so good.

Steve
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Steve
Bull Halsey
USA
229 Posts
Posted - Mar 23 2010 :  3:49:10 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'll be the first one to admit to owning a dozen or so "copies/fakes". I think it's quite a bit of work to achieve such interesting results. That said, I believe these cameras are worth only so much. This particular camera, like so many others, looks as if it had a new top cover with all new engravings. You may not see many of them but I'll bet you will see another not that far off. At over 500 Euro's, I'm sure there is another waiting in the wings.

Wasn't there a bit of an authenticity issue over the Yuri space camera?

I guess the more I think about it, if I REALLY wanted this camera, I'd bid till I won it. How I would feel a little later when I saw it again won at a lower sum .......... not so good.

Steve
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1008 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Mar 23 2010 :  6:17:05 PM  Show Profile  Visit nightphoto's Homepage  Reply with Quote

With this particular camera, FED-Arsenal, whether fake or authentic, I think there may be different versions. All that I have seen until this latest camera had serial numbers of 000XX .. or all under 100. Now this one has a serial number of 00222, which is much higher. Sometimes this can be the case when someone wants to make another camera but does not want to repeat a serial number.

So, possibly there are two "series". Maybe both are fakes with the larger serial numbers made later ... maybe the first series is authentic and the second series are fake .... maybe all part of one series with over 100 cameras not seen yet ... or maybe some other possibility.

Regards, Bill

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Steve
Bull Halsey
USA
229 Posts
Posted - Mar 23 2010 :  7:00:47 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bill,

So cameras like this, or the Yuri, Stalinet, and so on, are being watched in some way as to the serial numbers they have engraved into them? I'm serious, no sarcasm.

Steve
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1008 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Mar 23 2010 :  7:11:31 PM  Show Profile  Visit nightphoto's Homepage  Reply with Quote

Now I see that I examined my camera closely and made this conclusion of fake for my own camera:

"The rangefinder cam at the top of the inside of the lens mount, the shutter release button style, the "cross-shaped" shutter curtain bolts, the shape of the release spring, and other internal parts all identify this camera as a 1950-51 Zorki. By 1950 the Arsenal Zavod was well into serious production of the Kiev cameras, FED and Zorki were well into production, and so there would be no reason for a FED-ARSENAL camera!"

The details of the other examples I have seen are not so visible to me. The ones I have seen online or heard about are:

No. 00004 - listed on the Leica Shop - Vienna for 900 Euros in 2006 - this camera is shown on Novacon.com with MOCKBA Lens.
No. 00070 - mentioned in correspondence from Yuriy Davidenko, April 2006 - (this camera owned by  Davidenko's friend and it was supposedly presented to the employee of a factory the Arsenal for good work. No Photo.
No. 00222 - MOCKBA Lens # 139376 - (from Ebay ~ German seller ~ March 2010)

So, I think Steve is correct that we will see more soon. It is not that hard to get a MOCKBA lens!




Regards, Bill

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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1008 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Mar 23 2010 :  7:14:15 PM  Show Profile  Visit nightphoto's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Steve,
Hard to say if the serial numbers are actually being watched by camera fakers, but it could be!

Regards, Bill

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Zoom
564 Posts
Posted - Mar 24 2010 :  07:04:45 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mermoz37

you cannot find such a fake on European , US , Japanese ou Chinese camera .


May be because an European, Japanese, etc. cameras are more expensive and less mysterious... ;)

Btw, a overwhelming majority of Russian cameras counterfeiters are from Poland and Ukraine. Not rich countries, with ruined engineering industry... So I think that a counterfeiters are not lives in wealth.
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