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Start TLR

Created by mermoz37 on 11/23/2007 7:36:58 AM
Last Edited by mermoz37 on 11/26/2007 6:51:48 AM  
Located in
Still Cameras > GOMZ / LOMO / VOOMP - Other

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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo

Brazil
1995 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Nov 25 2007 :  06:50:33 AM  Show Profile  Visit Luiz Paracampo's Homepage  Reply with Quote
This is a rare find! a very rare find and indeed an historical piece.
At http://www.photohistory.ru/MiddleFormatCam.htm 32. Chamber 6x6, prototype-no-name, 1939, GOMZ you have a sister camera . Same date, same lens, same shutter and same cable release; and both share Zeiss Ikon bodies This one, Ikoflex the other, Ikonta/Nettar. These cameras were an atempt in build professional level cameras and was part of an Agreement with Zeiss in prepairing a microscope pruduction in St Petersbourg - The PROGRESS factory. Everything was described by Prof. Mahlon G. Kelly from University of Virginia in his old site that no more exists; a pity. They said that in 1940 the Russian skilled professionals built a so good high level optics that Zeiss sold them with their own name as their own production. Final prices were fairly competitive.
okynek
759 Posts
Posted - Nov 25 2007 :  09:18:07 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I can not recall I ever read about existents of such camera. Not to mention see one. Very nice camera!!! Can you provide more pictures, more details and view from inside?
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BERRY alain
mermoz37
France
814 Posts
Posted - Nov 25 2007 :  12:54:40 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ok friends, i will do it to morrow (detail and inside) what you need i willadd to the topic.
alain
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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
1995 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Nov 25 2007 :  3:56:13 PM  Show Profile  Visit Luiz Paracampo's Homepage  Reply with Quote
1939 should be the correct production date. The lateral finder hood exposure table refers to XND (Cyrillic) meaning H&D or Hurter and Driffield's. Those numbers were originally used in Russia as sensibility film reference before WWII. according to the overall camera condition this camera presupposed to be never used and have directly came from LOMO Museum.
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4248 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Nov 25 2007 :  10:32:41 PM  Show Profile  Visit Vlad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Absolutely phenomenal! Germans and Russians collaborating on a development of a camera less than 2 years before an all out war between the two countries!

Vlad.
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BERRY alain
mermoz37
France
814 Posts
Posted - Nov 26 2007 :  05:27:28 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
vlad,
collaboration begin since official treaty after 1918 in Italy : "Rappalo treaty" which concern all stratégic industry forbidden by allieds forces after "Versailles treaty in France...so Germans can built "Junkers" planes in Moscow suburbs and a acopy of French Tanks in Saratov etc...never forgot too ,there was German agricultural colony in Russia and Ukaraina since "great Catherin' Tsarin....
Curiously (?) there was a German colony just near Karkov !!!(remember fed similarities whith Leicas ...
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BERRY alain
mermoz37
France
814 Posts
Posted - Nov 26 2007 :  05:33:38 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dear Luiz,
yes indeed , many of my protos came from Lomo research desk factory.
some of them have inside paper label whith hand wrote references from there ...i will show you here in the future (like "cosmos 117 proto etc...)
we have time , i just arrive !
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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
1995 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Nov 26 2007 :  06:10:14 AM  Show Profile  Visit Luiz Paracampo's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Mermo37
This (and other) entrances are unvaluable cooperation to the original idea of this forum - Create a Research and information Center, collecting and giving ample knowledge to people interested in the camera history development. My own policy is to share ALL informations of each of the members in a true Socialistic way - or the exact basis upon each of FSU cameras were conceived and produced.
Your participation is a real treasure for us.
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BERRY alain
mermoz37
France
814 Posts
Posted - Nov 26 2007 :  06:55:44 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
thanks Luiz , very glad to meet some spafcialysts like you (hight level !) ...
i learn many things and will change some parts of my opinions !!

OKYNAK:
as you wished , i put some détails pictures in complement on the post Start TLR
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4248 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Nov 26 2007 :  10:23:49 AM  Show Profile  Visit Vlad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mermoz37

Curiously (?) there was a German colony just near Karkov !!!(remember fed similarities whith Leicas ...



Dear Alain,

I don't quite understand this statement.. my impression was that the FEDs were simply copied from Leica because Leica was a world sensation and it was done in the FED Commune... how does German colony come into play there?

Thanks,

Vlad
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BERRY alain
mermoz37
France
814 Posts
Posted - Nov 26 2007 :  10:55:08 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
dear Vlad,
please try to get a translation of "pedagogogic (?) poems " from Makarenko.
in the past i had to study these text because french learning methods.
i got a moscow edition at that time not suspect "capitalist" altered by western editor :
he wrote :
machinery in Karkov young pupils factory are German (remember "Almaz" machines tools was Suedish..)[i]and the Goverment sent "teachers" from Moscow to began the work[/i]....they do not came from Leningrad the most advance in fact(GOI)....anyway it is a old and hard discuss like the german origin of the October "revolution" when the wermacht paid the train for lenin from Switzerland to St Petersburg... But is it really interesting here to start a risky ideologic storm ???

let's says now : it is only Hypothesis
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4248 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Nov 26 2007 :  3:53:24 PM  Show Profile  Visit Vlad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Alain,

Yes, of course the machinery was German, that is a known, I am more intrigued by you saying that some kind of German colony was somehow related to FED? I am not against the historical discussions as long as they set a backdrop to the camera production... it is all important. I know it may be considered off-topic in other forums or lists, but history is huge part of collecting, that is why this forum thrives right now, it's all about collecting and not picture taking. So please - history and "ideological storms" are VERY ON-TOPIC, and I would think many members would agree. This is all important when you look at the big picture.

Is this "pedagogic poems" about teaching methods or it's more like a memoirs about the FED factory? I'm just curious.. I know it's right up your alley, since you and Makarenko are more or less colleagues.

Vlad.



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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
1995 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Nov 26 2007 :  7:20:30 PM  Show Profile  Visit Luiz Paracampo's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Two things and one more:
In 1995 i visited KMZ ans saw: All optics machinery were from home land Russia. Lathes and precision machinery were most from Switzerland. Cash registers in all shops were from Sweden.
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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
1995 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Nov 26 2007 :  7:28:04 PM  Show Profile  Visit Luiz Paracampo's Homepage  Reply with Quote
About "Rapallo Treaty" - FED cameras begun its life at GOI and GOMZ as "Pioneer". There was developed and made the famous "Industar 10". GOMZ furnished to FED the first series of those lenses and they were direct derivatives of original Elmar. First test series were built into Elmar lens bodies. Recently one was sold in auction of Fotokor Germany.
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BERRY alain
mermoz37
France
814 Posts
Posted - Nov 27 2007 :  05:05:48 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Vlad ,
pedagogic poems are books (4 ? if i remember well the edition in my hands...)
this book reveal the story of Karkov colony and application of Makarenko's padagogic theories (originaly , as you know , orphelins from Stalin crimes in Ukraina'farms, concentrated by NKVD near Karkov).
So Mk's theory said : school in the morning and then Factory hand work afternoon...(i resume).
Problems, about Soviets products history came (especially in France, where i teach in University,)come because many old peoples, in the 50/60/70's, believe in Marxist Utopia and never accept new historians and archivists new considerations....that's the real problem on a German/French TV Channel : ARTE which show now a new look on October "revolution"


: may old men hate this TV...
So, now i am very wise when speaking about factories histories (anyway read about Kiev history in Peter Hennig's site...instructive!)
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4248 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Nov 27 2007 :  09:49:34 AM  Show Profile  Visit Vlad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I did read Peter Hennig's site it's very interesting. I also purchased Marc James Small's "Non-Leitz LEICA thread-mount Lenses" book and he has an interesting section about the Contax/Kiev transition and the history behind both factories..

Alain, are these books mostly technical methodology or historical? I will probably try to find them if it's historical..

Thanks,
Vlad
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BERRY alain
mermoz37
France
814 Posts
Posted - Nov 27 2007 :  10:04:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
historical and chronical...
Makarenko describe the life and progresses during the life of the colony. one page he wrote " one day, a camarad deputy came from moscow and said us : now you must built Leica !" some times before , we have many problems whith german machine tools (those they used to built electric "DF" drill machines)"...etc etc....
so he describe relationships between boys and girls from the villages in the neighbourhood, Country side and athmosphere in the colony..... etc etc.
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Zoom
596 Posts
Posted - Nov 27 2007 :  10:33:17 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mermoz37

Vlad ,
this book reveal the story of Karkov colony and application of Makarenko's padagogic theories (originaly , as you know , orphelins from Stalin crimes in Ukraina'farms, concentrated by NKVD near Karkov).


Sorry, I don't know this.
Indeed, there were a Stalin's crimes (but not in that period: an educational establishments for a minor offenders was founded in 1920 near Poltava (named by Maxim Gorky) and then in 1927 near Kharkov (named by F. Dzerzhinsky), Stalin was the VKP(b) General secretary from 1922); indeed, there was a crimes in a Ukrainian farms (but not only in a Ukrainian ones); NKVD indeed participated in the organization of FED communa, but on donations of the NKVD officers, etc...
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Zoom
596 Posts
Posted - Nov 27 2007 :  10:47:49 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Luiz Paracampo

Two things and one more:
In 1995 i visited KMZ ans saw: All optics machinery were from home land Russia. Lathes and precision machinery were most from Switzerland.


Not all had shown to you... ;)

quote:
Originally posted by Luiz Paracampo


Cash registers in all shops were from Sweden.


"Cash registers", "shops" -- what you mean?

Btw, previous plant, based in Krasnogorsk (now: NPZ) use USA-made optic equipment (not all equipment was American, certainly).
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4248 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Nov 27 2007 :  2:06:17 PM  Show Profile  Visit Vlad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Thank you Alain, indeed this book will be an interesting read, I will try to find it.

Vlad
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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
1995 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Nov 27 2007 :  2:39:08 PM  Show Profile  Visit Luiz Paracampo's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by mermoz37

So Mk's theory said : school in the morning and then Factory hand work afternoon...(i resume).
Problems, about Soviets products history came (especially in France, where i teach in University,)come because many old peoples, in the 50/60/70's, believe in Marxist Utopia and never .....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I taught Metallurgy in Universtity also and here this statement (education)is completely true. Another problem found on education is that pupils in universities don't want put his hands in the labour work. The curriculum have no obligatory tasks, does no exigences -In consequence their final theoretical study becomes weak, and the student cannot compete in the market. The fact is, that behind these Makarenko (socialistic)ideas there is an in-built giant desire of correction of the society's errors. Here stands the image of theory's great attraction over the minds. The right methods although weren't yet reached.
Today unemployement and sub employement becomes a problem in the relationship of people. In our country, Brazil, this is presently greatly felt. Violence is the result of this "status quo".


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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
1995 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Mar 31 2009 :  6:57:39 PM  Show Profile  Visit Luiz Paracampo's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hey people!!!!
Only now I did note that this camera said as being "Start" TLR has in its plate the name "Sport"!
More fantastic yet!
Regards LP
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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
1995 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Mar 31 2009 :  7:01:04 PM  Show Profile  Visit Luiz Paracampo's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Although In the second photo we can read Start.
LP
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4248 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Mar 31 2009 :  7:11:36 PM  Show Profile  Visit Vlad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Sorry Luiz, all photos say "Start" in this entry.. it's light playing trick on your eyes . I've checked each one.

Vlad
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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
1995 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Apr 02 2009 :  06:56:30 AM  Show Profile  Visit Luiz Paracampo's Homepage  Reply with Quote
That is true Vlad But shades in one of pictures tend to read differentls at first glance! Excuses ...
LP
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BERRY alain
mermoz37
France
814 Posts
Posted - Apr 02 2009 :  11:03:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
hey friends...
do you need a front view ? it would be easier to red it...
Alain

ps : if someone know some infos about this (unique ?) camera ...he is welcome
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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
1995 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Apr 02 2009 :  10:03:58 PM  Show Profile  Visit Luiz Paracampo's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Here two Ikoflex from the same era Practically identical to the Start TLR


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/ikoflex1.JPG




http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/ikoflex2.JPG


One can see up to the exposure table It is a perfect reproduction.
Regards
LP
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