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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
1973 Posts
My Collection
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Lenny
496 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 18 2015 : 2:29:28 PM
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At first glance I put this Zorki-2 (Zorki-3 prototype) into the category counterfeit.
The shoe area and the base doesn't seem to look like it could be made from KMZ. |
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Milo Schekkerman
Valkir1987
Netherlands
194 Posts |
Posted - Mar 18 2015 : 3:55:51 PM
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| The accessory shoe looks like it is not of KMZ origin. However, the base of the top plate, and the rangefinder cam look like they do come from KMZ.(at least to me) Bigger pictures would help a lot. |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - Mar 18 2015 : 4:34:42 PM
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| It looks like PM1205 which is only a painting. The lens doesn't match the timeline. |
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G.Franco Giordano
Francesco
Italy
35 Posts |
Posted - Mar 20 2015 : 02:28:25 AM
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This is an old italian website.The accessory shoe looks like the one of Zorki 2 N°002 in the book of Victor Suglob, and in my opinion the camera is original. I think you can ask directly Mr. Torquati here:
http://www.ebay.it/usr/bianco |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - Mar 20 2015 : 05:24:02 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Francesco
This is an old italian website.
Ciao Francesco,
the camera is not for sale now?
Could be, if this would be an original prototype it would be worth much more. |
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Jacques M.
France
2575 Posts |
Posted - Mar 20 2015 : 06:38:01 AM
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Hello,
I have no great doubts about the authenticity of this Zorki. Of course, it would be better to have better photos.
The mechanism appears as the copy of Leica III's of the years 1934/36, with KMZ solutions: crisp paint of the shutter box. The two nut bolts for the regulation of the shutters are not post-1950 or 51. After, KMZ used four nut bolts. That could be useful to date the camera.
The finder is typical of the researches of KMZ at these times. On the first hundreds of Zorki 3, we have several trials of finders for the dimensions, the shape, the position of the screw... It's the first time I see such a big square window at the back. But why not?
This camera could be a Zorki prototype more. And much more a Zorki 3's than a 2's! But I can be completely wrong too!
Amitiés. Jacques. |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - Mar 20 2015 : 07:54:15 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
The two nut bolts for the regulation of the shutters are not post-1950 or 51. After, KMZ used four nut bolts. That could be useful to date the camera.
I might have one of the last Zorki-1a with 2-sided nuts and it might be made around May 1949, so the nuts are not so helpful to date this prototype. Zenitcamera.com has 106 real production Zorki-3 made in 1951 (not prototypes).
I know about 3 prototypes all shown on sovietcams.com,
PM1203 called Zorki-2, #00002, bottom-loader with a lens from 1948,
PM1205 called Zorki-2. #0007, bottom-loader, but it's only a painting,
PM1210 called Zorki-3, bottom-loader with a lens from 1950.
This prototype here looks like PM1205. |
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G.Franco Giordano
Francesco
Italy
35 Posts |
Posted - Mar 20 2015 : 08:39:41 AM
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Hi Lenny, as I said before this website is very old, at least 12 years.The price written under the camera is the same I saw many years ago, when I saw it for the fist time. I don't know if the camera is for sale, but I don't think so.
Greetings Francesco |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - Mar 20 2015 : 08:57:20 AM
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Thanks Francesco,
12 years ago was when the Euro just started. Maybe that's why the picture quality is not so good.
We all know about many prototypes from KMZ and most have a 5-digit serial, same as in PM1203, but this prototype here might have only 4-digits, strange. |
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Jacques M.
France
2575 Posts |
Posted - Mar 20 2015 : 09:40:30 AM
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Lenny,
I have a Zorki 1b s/n 15xxx which always has these two nut bolts. And my 23xxx too (strange for this one).
But we cannot argue only from that part: it's a Zorki 2 (or 3!), not a Zorki 1. It's a point, nothing else.
The fact we don't have good photos of details is of course a problem...
Jacques. |
Edited by - Jacques M. on Mar 20 2015 09:47:03 AM |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - Mar 20 2015 : 10:39:32 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
I have a Zorki 1b s/n 15xxx which always has these two nut bolts. And my 23xxx too (strange for this one).
But we cannot argue only from that part: it's a Zorki 2 (or 3!), not a Zorki 1. It's a point, nothing else.
The fact we don't have good photos of details is of course a problem...
Hello Jacaques,
it's quite unsual to have 2-sided nuts on a Zorki-1b, I never saw one. These nuts can also be changed easily and are not a good indicator to date a camera. At that time in 1949 the Zorki-1 was the only Zorki in KMZ production, After the 2-sided nuts were used up KMZ had their own 4-sided nuts also to make a difference from Fed. Much more an indicator that this could be a Zorki is the lock for the base-plate on the shutter-box which looks quite like Zorki. But as always, I doubt that there are so many prototypes because there are so many fakes. I wonder where Aidas got this painting of his PM1205. |
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Jacques M.
France
2575 Posts |
Posted - Mar 20 2015 : 11:01:56 AM
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The PM 1205 is in a booklet: "Sputnik Fotolubitel".
Before Aidas, Princelle had already marked the booklet and this camera. |
Edited by - Jacques M. on Mar 20 2015 11:08:10 AM |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - Mar 20 2015 : 11:17:52 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
The PM 1205 is in KMZ's booklet.
Before Aidas, Princelle had already marked the booklet and this camera.
Thanks Jacques,
I saw KMZ paintings on the manuals. For example there are early Zorki-C and Zorki-2C on the cover of the manuals, both look nearly the same, same serial numbers on the top, same lens numbers, only the 2C has the selftimer. It seems to me that these paintings must not be paintings of real cameras. These paintings are more a kind of fantasy. You know, before you build real prototypes you start with paintings. |
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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
1973 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Mar 20 2015 : 6:54:28 PM
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This site belongs to Massimo Bertrachi and everytime he uses authentic câmeras for his illustations.
Regards
LP |
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Jacques M.
France
2575 Posts |
Posted - Mar 21 2015 : 06:56:36 AM
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I didn't know that was Massimo's site...
Or I wouldn't have discussed about the authenticity of the camera...
Thanks, Luiz.
So, a prototype more, with that interesting big square window for the rangefinder at the back...
Jacques. |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - Mar 21 2015 : 07:32:23 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
I didn't know that was Massimo's site...
Or I wouldn't have discussed about the authenticity of the camera...
Massimo has a Zorki-1 #413991 on his website. This #413991 is also mentioned in sovietcams PM1095 as the earliest known Zorki-1 with serial on the backside. Unfortunately this #413991 has also a serial number #15630 on the top and it's a cutaway model. Can't be that this camera was made from KMZ originally, it might be mixed with parts from different Zorkis.
But luckily this #413991 with nonitalic numbers is not important anymore. I saw an earlier sample also with nonitalic numbers on ebay recently. |
Edited by - Lenny on Mar 21 2015 07:33:11 AM |
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Topic |
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original Zorki 2 and FED 6
