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Jacques M.
France
2018 Posts
Posted - Jul 17 2015 :  04:03:51 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hello,

There is another detail which is interesting to consider: the hollow which let the rewind lever move freely, on the cover.
That feature, on my s/n 164433:


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1772015_DSCF2215.JPG

On Feds, this hollow is more or less square. And it exists on the prewar and wartime series (1c to 1e) without interruption. We find it again on the first postwar 1f, up to c. s/n 220000, then it disappears (my 1f s/n 232140):


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1772015_DSCF2218.JPG

On Zorkis, it is there on the first series. For example, on my Fed-Zorki s/n 03278:


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1772015_DSCF2217.JPG

On Zorkis, this hollow exists too on the 1a and a part of the 1b, then it disappears. Note that on Zorkis, it is more rectangular than on Feds.

This hollow is present on the covers of the Fed-Arsenals 00004 and 00067. It is absent on the 00020 and 00216. I don't know for the others. As the engravings have exactly the same characteristics, they were for sure made at the same time, when covers without hollow existed, probably in the very early 1950 years.

So, I share Bill's opinion: certainly these cameras were not made in 1946/47.

Amitis. Jacques.



Edited by - Jacques M. on Jul 17 2015 04:12:49 AM
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alzo
7 Posts
Posted - Jul 17 2015 :  06:19:52 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dear all,

I consider your argumentation about the hollow is insufficient for proving that the camera is fake. This hollow was made after the main shape of top plate was stamped. Otherwise you would be unable to take away the stamped detail from the stamping form. The absence of the hollow on the top plate can only tell about the simplification of the manufacturing procedure. It cannot serve as a proof that the top plate was used from the late Zorkis where the manufacture procedure was also simplified. As I see the top plates of FED, FED Arsenal and FED-Zorki have different geometry that says only that the stamping forms in three cases were different.

For final resolution of the puzzle we will need the documents from Arsenal plant or to perform, say, the spectral analysis of alloys that were used in production of top plates for FED Berdsk, FED Arsenal and FED-Zorki. I consider these both verification approaches are much better than any attempts to discuss the camera originality based on recollections of former Arsenal workers or on the shape and geometry of the top plate.

with best regards
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Jacques M.
France
2018 Posts
Posted - Jul 17 2015 :  07:26:49 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Alzo,

If I understand well, you consider that there were some non-stamped covers left, and that these covers could have been used to make some Fed-Arsenals? Why not... That would explain why some cameras have this hollow, while others don't.

I must say too that there were several different "forms" to make the covers, at Fed's, sometimes used at the same time. So, a specific shape is not a proof in itself: it should be crossed with other specifications. Too long and hazardous.

So, yes, a spectral analysis would certainly be interesting...

Amitis. Jacques.
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1008 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Jul 17 2015 :  12:04:26 PM  Show Profile  Visit nightphoto's Homepage  Reply with Quote
To all,

At present there is lack of documents from Arsenal and no passports or other official documentary evidence has been found, such as mention of this production at Arsenal in one of the magazines like Sovetskoe Foto. If the camera is fake there will never be authentic documents found and so lack of known documents can not be seen as proof that the camera may be authentic. It has been 65 years since the hypothetical production of FED-Arsenal, a long time for some documentary evidence to surface, as it has with many production details of different cameras, including the very secret KGB cameras and documentation of their manufacture. It is not enough, in my opinion, just to say that Arsenal was a secret factory.

Of course the small indentation near the rewind lever, that Jacques has mentioned and shown with close-up photos, can and was in the original stamping of the rangefinder housing, and not hand-stamped later. It will easily lift up from the stamping form by just lifting the piece out from the other side. The hollow is quite shallow and anyone with knowledge of metal stamping and die work will see this instantly.

In any case, it is almost beyond belief that rangefinder housings would be found without this detail as it would have been done at the same time as the initial stamping, even if for some reason they were hand-stamped. I think this theory is over the top and just being offered so as not to give up hope of origin at Arsenal.

All of the photographs of the different known FED-Arsenals appear to have the rangefinder housing of a Zorki, with the squared off-shape, rather than the somewhat uneven shape of the FED housing. This is very clear from photos of all examples that I have listed in the revised WIKI article of this site, with the exception of No. 00070 of which there are no known photos.

If all the examples of FED-Arsenal have Zorki rangefinder housings on either older FED bodies, or in the case of No. 00020, a Zorki body, then it is clear that the rangefinder housings were engraved at a later time and affixed to old cameras to deceive. It is pretty clear.

A comparison of spectral analysis of the metallic alloy content of various housings would be fine, but would have to be done by a well-known accredited - certified laboratory. Not just sent off to a participant of this discussion. But the subject parts be sent directly to the lab and the official results sent back from the lab. In this way the results would not be contested. I think it would be proof that the FED-Arsenal parts are of KMZ origin, but the tests would tell for sure.

And, lastly, concerning documents from Arsenal. Any documents that would suddenly become available in the near future, just after this highly public controversy, would need to be tested for authenticity, compared to other documents from Arsenal, and probably be tested for age.

I have followed and participated in the arguments concerning this camera quite closely, as you all know. I no longer own a FED-Arsenal and have not written a book or made a film that declares it to be authentic or a fake. I have written the initial entry for FED-Arsenal in the USSRPhoto.com WIKI and have recently edited it to reflect the uncertain status discussed by members of this forum. I have no monetary interest in whether it would be authentic or not and I am no longer a collector of Soviet or Russian cameras but I studied all aspects of Soviet, post Soviet, and pre-Soviet cameras for almost 20 years.

Considering the evidence and details that have been talked about and shown in photos, and the lack of any proof to the contrary, I now believe the FED-Arsenal camera is an older fake using re-engraved Zorki rangefinder housings added to old FED bodies and that the FED-Arsenal was never in production at the Arsenal Zavod. The cameras themselves tell the story, as always. Information from non-verified sources and unproven theories with no documentation do not take the place of the evidence and details visible and obvious on the cameras themselves.

Regards, Bill

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alzo
7 Posts
Posted - Jul 18 2015 :  04:29:38 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dear Bill,

Since you have studied all the aspects of Soviet cameras can you please describe the process of metall stamping of the top plate with a hollow?. I have the problem to understand how it is possible to stamp the top plate with the hollow in one stamping run. I can only imagine how to do this using two runs with two different stamping forms. Sorry to ask this probably trivial question. Thank you in advance for detailed explanation.

faithfully yours

Edited by - alzo on Jul 18 2015 04:51:07 AM
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Jacques M.
France
2018 Posts
Posted - Jul 18 2015 :  10:39:58 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Alzo!

On thinking of the possibility of a spectrographic analysis, I wonder if it would really give us the solution of the problem, contrarily to what I have said above. Sorry...

I try to explain.
I suppose that the analysis will be made by comparison with another part, which will be the model. For example, the cover of a Fed 1e "Berdsk" and the one of your 00216. It's perfect if the result is positive. But what do we know exactly about this 1e cover? Is it different by its composition from a 1d or a 1f? Or even from an early Zorki's? I fear that we don't really solve the problem: we only change the question.

And even if it is proved that the 00216 cover is absolutely like a Fed Berdsk's (by it composition or whatever else) and that the series of these cameras is coherent, we won't know where, when and by whom this cover was engraved.

Here is the "hollow" on my Fed-Arsenal's cover. As you can see, it's a Fed type one. The camera is coherent and can be made of Fed Berdsk parts only. But that doesn't tell me if there is a series of Fed-Arsenals...


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1872015_DSCF2220.JPG
(sorry for the paint -not removed- of a precedent owner!)

Perhaps things would be better on analysing the odd spare parts, specially this very interesting counter frame I had never seen before. But in that case, what will be the model for the comparison?

I fear that you will find much more questions than solutions. To protocol should be hard. But I'm not a scientist!

For me, it would be better to look for original papers of the factory, if it is possible. If not, probably this question will join the non-solved cases...

Amitis. Jacques.

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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1008 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Jul 18 2015 :  11:53:38 AM  Show Profile  Visit nightphoto's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Dear Alzo,

Although I am quite familiar with the details of the die and stamping process (from a former job at a manufacturing company), I am afraid it is beyond the scope of this forum and my own time constraints to explain them in detail. With some time and research, you can learn them on your own. You will see that it is not difficult or unusual to stamp a shape such as this (including the small hollow) in one stamping, and would be easy to remove from the form by just lifting out. In fact, it would be done this way. Even in the case of a more complicated shape that could not be done in one stamping, the second stamping would be done at the consecutively, at the same time as part of the process and it would not happen that the parts would be left unfinished for another time. It would be very unlikely that a group of parts would be left unfinished, shipped to another location, and then finished before assembly. This is a very weak argument and scenario to hinge the authenticity of this camera on. You will find this out if you research the process and examine the interior of this particular part.

Regards, Bill
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alzo
7 Posts
Posted - Jul 18 2015 :  12:14:46 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thank you very much for your detailed and comprehencive answer of stamping with hollow. I meant that time is most precious resource - it comes and never comes back. Sorry for my bad English.

Edited by - alzo on Jul 18 2015 2:03:00 PM
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1008 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Jul 18 2015 :  1:21:01 PM  Show Profile  Visit nightphoto's Homepage  Reply with Quote
OK Alzo, if you feel that way.

Regards, Bill

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xya
France
81 Posts
Posted - Jul 19 2015 :  03:28:24 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
concerning the stamp form: there are forms that consist of multiple parts for complicated shapes. same for the upper press that can consist 2 or 4 parts that join in pressing. after the stamping you take out a more regular part of the form in the middle, this liberates the other parts.
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altix
Ukraine
149 Posts
Posted - Sep 12 2015 :  07:42:24 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
In the following I plan to show you several documents that show that FED was produced in Kiev after WWII. I am very appreciated my friend Alzo who did a great job while searching in libraries and archives and who was very kind to share his findings with me and you.

The first document is from Ukrainian State Kinofotofonoarchiv http://tsdkffa.archives.gov.ua/.
It is dated by 13. February 1945. NKW is people's commissariat of armament.

To narkom of armament
of USSR
comrade Ustinov D. F.


Until September 1941 cameras FED were produced in Kharkov by factory 296 NKAP, which in November 1942 transferred all its equipment, devices, incomplete production and documentation on cameras FED and it accessories to factory No 237 NKW.

Taking into account that the factory No 237 does not work on the reconstruction of FED cameras production, I ask you to assign to the factory No 237 to transfer all equipment, devices, incomplete production and documents on cameras FED and it accessories, according to acceptance certificate betwen the factory No 296 NKAP and the factory No 237 NKW - Ukropromsovet, which according our order organizes the cameras production in Kiev city.

I ask you also assist in starting of production of photographic cameras by optical equipment and control-measuring tools from factories of NKW:

a) Equipment 23 items (appendix 1)
b) Control-measuring equipment 26 items (appendix 2)

Chairmen of Union of People's Commissariat of Ukrainian Soviet Socialistic Republic
N. Khrushchev


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1292015_p1.jpg



http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1292015_p2.jpg
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altix
Ukraine
149 Posts
Posted - Sep 12 2015 :  09:36:14 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The second document is the article in Ukrainian newspaper "Radians'ka Ukraina" (Soviet Ukraine) dated by 12 Oktober 1945. The original one can find in Vernadsky National Library of Ukraine (department of newspapers) http://www.nbuv.gov.ua/.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1292015_p3.jpg

Here is the article "Peaceful Arsenal"


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1292015_p5.jpg

I rewrite here the full version in Ukrainian. If you would like to read it whole use Google Translator. The most interesting place is here "... But there are some first tries. There is something that makes the words of factory director K. Smirnov real. He says that soon here would appear the camera on which people would search usual trademark FED but would find another - a Kiev one. "

Мирний Арсенал


Палає вогонь у горні. Від полум'я червоніє сталь, міцно затиснута довгими кліщами. Скільки років дивиться в полум'я горна своїми вже натрудженими очима коваль Михайло Піорко! Йому вже 69 років, 44 з них він на цьому заводі. Історія заводу - біографія старика.

Доля заводу стала долею його людей. Та ось спіткало велике нещастя коваля Михайла Піорка і, здається, як би не мінявся завод, ніяк не вплине ця зміна на його долю - синів вже не піднімеш. Один в 1941 році вів літак над Прибалтикою, літак зробив своє діло, але льотчик, - похмуро говорить батько, - приземлився навічно. А другий... Скільки ще разів зазеленіють дерева на широкому бульварі Шевченка, тягтимуться до сонця, наллються соками нові віти. Загубиться серед них і та, навколо якої обвилася мотузка, туго зав'язана німцем, щоб другим кінцем намертво задавити горло двадцятирічному хлопцеві. І під тінь тих вітів ніколи не прийде вже з дівчиною Василь Піорко.

З трьох синів залишився єдиний. Сумно було в напіврозваленому будинку коваля. Він та стара - ще на Уралі. Старого надіслали сюди, а син ще точив деталі для гармат, таких гармат, що їх - скільки пам'ятає старий - так багато випускав його рідний Арсенал.

Війна невблаганно втрутилася в історію заводу і біографію коваля. Війна інесла поправки в земний профіль України. Зорана снарядами, здиблена динамітом, вдавлена бомбами наша земля. Гори руїн піднялися над рівнинами міст і селищ. Багато треба вирівнювати. Треба заново нанести на карту профіль землі, вирваної з німецького пекла, щоб потім по цій карті креслити нову.

І ковалеві Піорку, що все життя кував деталі для цехів, які робили гармати, після повернення на рідний Арсенал довелося сильніше роздути горно, взяти в руки кліщі і міцніше затиснути в них нову деталь для нового заводу, що створюється на рештках старого. Цей новий завод дасть і вже подекуди дає те, що в воєнний час озброює око наводчика, мінера, флотоводця, а в час мирний - око геодезиста, дослідника, будівельника. Людина, що робила гармати, разом з своїми товарищами здобуває нову професію, і в ній багато такого, що виходить за рамки звичайного збагачення виробничого досвіду.

Колись німці вихвалялися: "Люди всього світу дивляться крізь оптику Цейса". Німецька оптика вважалася неперевершаною. До неї зверталися, як до найдосконалішого еталона. Проте і найдосконаліші скла, через які солдати Гітлера вже навіть виразно бачили Москву і Ленінград, не врятували німців.

І ось у стінах колишнього заводу, зруйнованого, скаліченого, ми знаходимо перші ознаки нового. Він тільки створюється. Коваль Михайло Піорко кує для нього деталі машин. Прибувають ешелони з устаткуванням. Його монтують, встановлюють у нашвидку пристосованих цехах. І вже гудуть мотори. Серед хаосу руїн вже обертаються розумні, зовсім нові для Києва верстати, і варто побути тут дві - три години, щоб стати свідком чудесного перетворення.
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altix
Ukraine
149 Posts
Posted - Sep 12 2015 :  09:51:59 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It is worth to note here that the author of the article mentioned Carl Zeiss and new "smart" equipment and tools, brought by trains, that were continuously mounted and some of which were already in use. Probably here is mentioned equipment from Dresden plants of Zeiss Ikon.
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altix
Ukraine
149 Posts
Posted - Sep 12 2015 :  10:05:46 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Грубий, непрозорий шматок скла. Його бере у майстра дівчина, що прийшла на завод з колгоспу. Вона обліплює таким склом чавунний грибок і встановлює на обдиральному верстаті. Потім інша дівчина, теж ще новачок, переставляє грибок на шліфувальний верстат. Він майже беззвучно обертається, і ще через деякий час вже зовсім прозоре, відшліфоване скло переходить у руки полірувальниці. Від неї ще до однієї жінки, яка повинна зробити це скло шедевром точності - вивірити його оптичний фокус. Але й ця жінка тут новачок. Потім невидимий шар бальзаму міцно з'єднує обидва скельця лінзи, і вона переходить в руки тих, хто повинен зробити лінзу деталлю складних геодизичних приладів - нівелірів, кіпрегелів та приладів інших, що ними користуються люди військові.

Не можна вразити радянських людей, сказавши, що тут роблять речі з точністю до десятих часток мікрона. Але, коли талановитий радянський оптик, киянин Віктор Йосипович Іванов запрошує подивитися, як від наближення його пальця до трубки камерного високочастотного рівня рівень приходить у рух, бо на його вплинуло тепло, що вилучається пальцем, то як було не здивуватися, що всі ці понадточні вироби народжуються у цехах, де ще не прибрано пил руїн, де лютують протяги, де крейда ще не всюди вкрила на стінах сліди диму від пожеж? Як було не здивуватися, коли головна лінія потоку в цеху понадточних рівнів розмістилася в... тісній конторці начальника цеху, а вивірку рівнів робили просто на підвіконні?
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altix
Ukraine
149 Posts
Posted - Sep 12 2015 :  10:16:52 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here it is very interesting information that high-precision instruments like theodolites were produced in dusty draughty workshops with traces of fires left on the walls. The calibration and tests of devices were performed on window-sill in small office of workshop head. These optical devices were assembled by ex-dairymaids. No wonder that chrome plating on FED Arsenal is very poor.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1292015_p7.jpg

Here is the picture from this newspaper that shows these ex-dairymaids. "Senior controller of assembling workshop of Kiev plant, where the director is com. Smirnov, N. M Koronina and controller O.A. Kozlova accept the new levels".
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altix
Ukraine
149 Posts
Posted - Sep 12 2015 :  10:42:27 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Скажімо відверто - нема ще заводу в повному розумінні цього слова. Але є наслідки першої проби сил. Є те, що робить реальними розповіді директора заводу К. Смірнова про те, що мине декілька місяців, і звідси вийде у світ фотоаппарат, на якому шукатимуть звичну марку "ФЕД", а знайдуть іншу - київську. А потім вийде ще один апарат, що буде останнім словом сучасної фототехніки і успішно змагатиметься щодо якості з "Лейцем" і "Контаксом". Віриш, що слідом за першими оптичними верстатами, що їх власними силами зібрав завод, почнеться серійний випуск цих верстатів. Віриш також в те, що селище заводу, про проект якого так захоплено розповідає нам депутат арсенальців у Верховній Раді УРСР Андрій Васильович Душко, дійсно виросте і дасть притулок тим, хто покищо тулиться в тісноті, а іноді ночує і в заводському клубі, і в конторі, бо надто вже багато арсенальських жител зруйнував вогонь.

Віриш, бо бачиш, як працюють люди і що це за люди. Відмовляється від відпустки і заклопотано бігає по цеху білобородий Іванов, людина дивної творчої вигадки, віртуоз своєї справи. Залишає Ленінград уже літня жінка Віра Іванівна Большакова і їде в Київ вчити жінок новій складній справі, і вже тут вона дістає звання майстра. Днює і ночує на заводі начальник одного з цехів Рогожін, і коли в нього запитують про відпочинок, він розповідає: "Ви знаєте, коли відпочиває людина? Коли вона знаходить те, чого шукає".

Це сказано чудесно. Бо все, кого ми бачили на Арсеналі, знаходять заслужений відпочинок після важких, дуже важких років війни у тому, що на руїнах вони швидко будують зовсім нове виробництво вищого класу точності.

У директора на столі лежить рознорядка Наркомату. Уже вироблену продукцію треба розіслати в 49 місць, в Донбас, в карелію, в Естонію, в Молдавію, в такі й такі польові пошти, - хіба це не радість людям, які знайшли після німця в себе в домі тільки руїни? І коли вони згадають, що робить мирний Арсенал таку зброю, яка допомагає змінювати лице нашої землі, шукати нові багатства надр, прокладати нові магістралі і вчитися про який випадок влучно націлювати гармати й танки, - їм стає ще більш радісно.

От тому, коли все це приходить на думку старому ковалеві Михайлові Піорку, він ще сильніше роздмухує вогонь у горні. В творенні нового заводу зарубцьовується його душевна рана...

- А Арсенал справжній, грізний, гарматний! Його хіба немає? - запитає киянин, для якого не більш, ніж звичайне підприємство.

І той Арсенал є. Перебазований киянами, він виріс на іншому місці і жерла його гармат посилали не одну сотню снарядів по німцях. І дуже часто пише звідти син Піорка, благаючи негайно повідомити, що нового в Києві, що робиться в стінах прославленого революцією Київського Арсеналу.


БОРИС ЯМПОЛЬСЬКИЙ
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altix
Ukraine
149 Posts
Posted - Sep 12 2015 :  10:51:06 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here is interesting to note the following information. We find the indirect information about the future production of cameras Kiev. "Later another camera would appear that would be the latest word of modern photo cameras and which would successfully compete in quality with "Leitz" and "Contax"".

Here is also mentioned that the war destroyed almost all houses of Arsenal workers and a new Arsenal village is planned for workers. Some workers sleep directly on the territory of Arsenal - in offices and in factory club.
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altix
Ukraine
149 Posts
Posted - Sep 12 2015 :  11:06:27 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The last document that we want to show here is the article "The new Arsenal" from the newsletter "Pravda Ukrainy" (29 July 1945). This newspaper you can also find in archives of http://www.nbuv.gov.ua/.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1292015_p8.jpg

Here is the full text in Russian (that I will reproduce below)


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1292015_p4.jpg

Here is the part of the article saying about FED Arsenal cameras


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1292015_p6.jpg

Namely here is written "And soon from this factory the country would obtain - in quantities of many dozens of thousands- the first-rate cameras "FED". Up to 120 thousands per year!"
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altix
Ukraine
149 Posts
Posted - Sep 12 2015 :  11:37:02 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
НОВЫЙ АРСЕНАЛ

Когда в тревожное лето сорок первого года немецкая угроза нависла над Киевом, приготовившимся к осаде, и на дворы Арсенала подали эшелоны для эвакуации - казалось, не огромный завод покидает свое обжитое гнездо, а старый, бывалый солдат меняет позицию, чтобы удобнее было выбирать цели, вести огонь...

Старые боевики-арсенальцы отнесли в вагон обтянутое чехлом, знаменитое заводское знамя. И на Урале они не осрамили его.

Уехавший завод не вернулся на свое место. Прочно, обеими ногами, врос он в свое новое гнездо. А просторные и высокие киевские цехи Арсенала вновьзаполняют люди. Отныне новая, замечательная продукция мирного времени будет рождаться под этими крышами.

Наша страна из огромного военного лагеря стала лагерем строителей. И всюду, впереди плотников и каменщиков, идет человек с нивелиром и металлической лентой, - без него никто не проложит трассу дороги, не спланирует территорию завода, не выберет места для цехов.

Этот нивелир - простых и сложных систем - всей стране уже дает молодой оптико-механический завод, вырастающий в старых арсенальских стенах, выщербленных пулями. И скоро от этого же завода будут получать - многими десятками тысяч - первоклассные фотоаппараты "ФЭД". До 120 тысяч в год!

Еще недавно в захламленных цехах уныло посвистывал ветер, а уже в апреле первая партия в полсотни нивелиров в изящно отделаных ящиках была сдана заказчикам. Здесь никогда не давали литья под давлением и не обрабатывали стекла с точностью до половины микрона, не штамповали пластмассу и не серебрили оптические призмы. Но все это уже делается на новом Арсенале.

Их пока несколько десятков на заводе - инженеров и мастеров, влюбленных в свою редкую профессию оптиков, они живут в мире предельных точностей, они придирчево проверяют свою ювелирную работу, пока неподкупный солнечный луч, преломившись через стеклянный калибр, не признает шлифовку совершенной.

Они - душа завода. Его директор Константин Смирнов, главный инженер Дмитрий Соболев, главный конструктор Иван Монченко, руководитель производственного отдела Григорий Третьяков, начальники цехов и мастера, - все они как-то сразу сумели привязаться к этим, на первый взгляд слишком просторным, для оптики цехам и всей душой почувствовать, что отныне это их дом - большой дом- киевский гигант оптической механики.

Когда появляется на свет нивелир, двенадцать цехов стоят над его колыбелью, 500 станков вытачивают, шлифуют и полируют его малейшие частицы, две тысячи рук дают ему жизнь и следят, чтобы он был точен до сотой миллиметра. Его части гальванизируют, хромируют, никелируют, окрашивают, - они должны долго и честно служить своим будущим хозяевам.

Оптическим цехом руководит ленинградский оптик Ефим Мозес. Это - святая святых завода, цех волшебных превращений стекла. Оно приходит сюда в виде литых или штампованых кусков с матовой, шершавой поверхностью. и на ваших глазах этот мертвый, тусклый кусок стекла начинает как бы оживать.

Вот он прошел грубую обдирку на маленьком станке шлифовальщицы и уже определились четкие грани призмы или линзы. Из рук в руки передается стекло для будущей призмы, уровня, окуляра, об"ектива, еще точнее становится шлифовка, все чаще прикладывает девушка стеклянный угольник к полуготовой детали, все осторожнее ее движения. И вот уже ловкие и нежные руки Татьяны Мясниковой бережно прижимают хрупкую призмочку к вертящемуся кругу, а нога привычно вращает его. Татьяна выпускает линзу в мир, она полирует ее тончайшие фаски, едва заметными движениями придает ей окончательную точность.
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altix
Ukraine
149 Posts
Posted - Sep 12 2015 :  12:06:07 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The text of this article contradicts in one place to the text of "Peaceful Arsenal" in Radianska Ukraina. It is very interesting text for people who study history of Zeiss factory in Jena.

This text was written in July 1945. Already one month Zeiss factory was under control of Soviet occupation forces. As we know Soviets ordered to increase the production numbers of military and civil optics. The staff of CZJ has grown from 4500 (July 1945) to 6000 (beginning of August 1945) [taken from F. Schomerus "Geschichte des Jenaer Zeisswerkes 1846-1946, Stuttgart 1952, p.302"] The production line in Jena consisted of 12 workshops.

Now we read in the article "The new Arsenal" that Arsenal has finished the first batch of levels and shipped in July 1945 and that the levels are produced in 12 workshops by almost 2000 workers. This information is written in such a way that reader starts to believe that all levels were produced in Arsenal and that this factory has already 2000 workers. But in reality in 1945 there were only few workers on the Arsenal plant (mainly ex-dairymaids) and it seems that they just used to relabel Zeiss products and learned hard how to produce optical elements and cameras. Probably the production of FED Arsenal was thought as a camera for practicing of camera assembly and production before Kiev project started.

But you can see how the propaganda worked that time. The levels from Jena "in beautiful wooden boxes" were officially "produced" in Arsenal by 2000 workers in 12 workshops with piles of dust and fire traces on the walls .

It is worth to mention that the author describes Arsenal workshops as very spacious ("too spacious for optics workshops"). It indicates that initially the production started in old Arsenal building near Kiev-Pechersk Lavra as I've mentioned already in the beginning of this thread.

Edited by - altix on Sep 12 2015 12:16:14 PM
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altix
Ukraine
149 Posts
Posted - Sep 12 2015 :  12:51:36 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Попробуйте представить себе угол наклона в 15 секунд! Это нормальная величина, которой оперируют в этом цехе, в цехе почти фантастической точности.

- Я больше на гектары привыкла считать, - улыбается бригадир молодежной бригады Галина Деггар, - а вот теперь научилась новому счету.

И она, и все ее подружки пришли на завод из села. Пытливый ум простых девушек и честные работящие руки помогают им выполнить три нормы на той работе, где одно неловкое движение - и линза идет в брак.

В этом цехе мы познакомились с интересным человеком, старейшим русским изобретателем Виктором Иосифовичем Ивановым. Этот старик с умными, проницательными глазами, налаживал когда-то выпуск первых уровней в России и производство первых точных делений на оптическом стекле. Он приехал сюда из Москвы и вместе со своим учеником инженером Мозесом кропотливо добивается идеального основания уровня.

Он ведет нас к станочку, изобретенному им, - простая и хитроумная машина автоматически шлифует стеклянные трубочки уровней. А еще недавно эта деликатная работа доверялась только человеческим рукам.

Эта влюбленность мастеров оптики в свою профессию, в свое дело помогает им обратить в "свою веру" тех, кто только издали видел нивелир в руках геодезиста и "ФЭД" в руках фотолюбителя. Инженеры-технологи, делавшие пушки, становятся энтузиастами оптики, домашние хозяйки учатся собирать уровни, токари, обдиравшие стволы минометов, вытачивают двумиллиметровые винтики, доярки шлифуют линзы шестикратного увеличения.

Щедрой рукой страна дает киевским оптикам оборудование. Механический цех уже выпускает 300 глухих нивелиров в месяц, а его искуснейшие механики Глуховцев, Арефьев, Иванов, в сотый раз начиная все сначала, в неутомимых поисках совершенства, ставят на производство сложный нивелир - "Кипрегель Большой".

- Сами становитесь на ноги и сами учитесь ходить и постарайтесь это сделать хотя бы втрое скорее, чем ребенок, - так сказали инженерам, посылая их на завод. И возле слесаря-виртуоза Ольховского уже подросло несколько молодых слесарят из колхозных пареньков, и первый из столяров завода Голсанин имеет плеяду своих учеников, и инженер Боган в механическом научил домашнюю хозяйку Ямкову искусству тончайшей сборки нивелиров, и начальник механического Луконин переходит от станка к станку, направляя резец вчерашнего ремесленника...

Новый завод получил в наследство от старого не только пустые коробки цехов, дворы, под"ездные пути и не только немые стены - свидетелей героического восстания. Нет, он получил гораздо большее: в этих стенах незримо витает неукротимый дух арсенальцев, их умение вносить страсть во все - и в жаркий бой, и в досрочное выполнение важного заказа, и в шефство над машинно-тракторной станцией.

......

Ю. АЛЕКСАНДРОВИЧ

I omitted some non-interesting pathetic passages at the end of the article.

Edited by - altix on Sep 12 2015 12:54:56 PM
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
3953 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Sep 13 2015 :  09:31:38 AM  Show Profile  Visit Vlad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hello Altix,

A huge Thank you to you and Alzo for uncovering these documents and posting them here, it took me a while to read through all these at least once, I still need to reread it a few more time, it is a treasure trove of documentation!

From my "inattentive reading" of past 24 hours I do get the impression that this establishes that the cameras FED-Arsenal truly existed, I understood that the production was started there and quickly abandoned in favor of Volga (Kiev)... great material, nothing I can say, except for the fact that it now opens a new chapter - which FED-Arsenal cameras are genuine and which are fakes that were built based on "Rumors" that they existed. .

Thank you again, it's unbelievable that this kind of information can still be found after the fall of USSR...

Best regards,
Vlad.
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Juhani Halmeenmaki
cedricfan
Finland
885 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Sep 13 2015 :  09:40:18 AM  Show Profile  Visit cedricfan's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Wow, I am wordless!

Best regards,
Juhani
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altix
Ukraine
149 Posts
Posted - Sep 14 2015 :  1:20:03 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dear Vlad,

thank you for this wonderful resource where we could discuss such thrilling topics. For me the uncovered material supported some my guess about the origin of early optical devices in Arsenal. If you don't mind I would like to share some my thoughts about the early Arsenal theodolites, levels and kippregels. It has nothing to do with FED Arsenal but I believe it deserve to be presented here in the view of uncovered information from the newspapers. These observations can also help you to understand how difficult to determine what is the original Soviet design of the post-war precision optical instruments.

The Arsenal levels are quite rare items and not many of them I was able to spot and investigate. I can distinguish three main types of Arsenal levels.

The first type that I consider the most rare one was probably completely produced and assembled in Arsenal based on German documentation. This is almost one-to-one design of Zeiss Jena Ni IV (1920-1922). In 1945 -48 this design was already obsolete. Why Arsenal produced them? Most probably they were able to assemble it quickly and since levels in post-war country were of immense importance the obsolete design played no role.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1492015_Type1.jpg

I cannot be sure but I think that these levels have similar optical parameters like 20x zoom. One can note that some details in construction of Arsenal level are different from the German one. Note also the presence of plastic elements on arsenal level - a new technology that became familiar to Arsenal workers after the war (according to newspapers).




Edited by - altix on Sep 14 2015 1:30:53 PM
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altix
Ukraine
149 Posts
Posted - Sep 14 2015 :  2:21:56 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The second type was state-of-the-art level in 1945. This level we see on the picture of the newspaper


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1492015_p10.jpg

It was called in Arsenal "Nivelir Gluhoy -NG" ("deaf level"). The first article (July 1945) writes that it is planned to produce "NG" while the second (October 1945) already shows a photo. But I doubt that these levels were assembled in Arsenal in 1945. Actually it is almost one-to-one Carl Zeiss Ni B (1945-1946). There are some cosmetic differences but I believe the optical properties are the same for Arsenal and Zeiss levels (improved 31x zoom ). I believe that Arsenal level was actually produced by Zeiss (at least in 1945-46). In 1946 the equipment was brought from Jena to Kiev and probably Arsenal levels 1947 -1953 (?) one can consider as truly Soviet ones produced on Zeiss equipment.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1492015_type2.jpg

After 1946 Zeiss was unable to produce levels for German market due to regulations of occupation forces. It started with a new model only in early fifties.

The difference in design of Zeiss Ni B from Arsenal one can be explained by the fact that Zeiss labeled levels were produced for export to US, England and France occupation zones. That demanded much higher standards of quality. I think Arsenal level is simplified version of Ni B.

Here is the comparison of Soviet and German packaging:


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1492015_type2_1.jpg

Later Arsenal NG levels have plastic parts and were produced probably up to 1957. Some further developments can be traced even in 1962 (NB-3 model).

Edited by - altix on Sep 14 2015 3:53:26 PM
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altix
Ukraine
149 Posts
Posted - Sep 14 2015 :  2:57:48 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The third model is very rare. It has 44x zoom. Arsenal level is actually Zeiss Ni A from early forties. These both designs are completely identical. Definitely it was produced on the same equipment.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1492015_type 3.jpg

I acknowledge the site http://www.bau-popp.de/ for pictures and information on Zeiss levels.

Another interesting creature of Arsenal factory is the Arsenal kippregel. In the newspaper from 1945 was mentioned that Arsenal planed to start its production. This device is also extremely hard to spot and it looks fantastic. Actually its design was very obsolete for 1945 -1948 and comes most probably from the end of XIX century! I have found many similarities of Arsenal kippregel with Kern kippregel.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1492015_kippregel.jpg

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Zoom
564 Posts
Posted - Sep 15 2015 :  03:10:26 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Vlad

From my "inattentive reading" of past 24 hours I do get the impression that this establishes that the cameras FED-Arsenal truly existed....


Strangely enough, but it seemed to me that everyone (of course: everyone, who are interested in this theme ;) knows this fact...
It was a complicated story, there are a lot of interesting details, some things remains a mystery, but this history is not a secret in generally. (Or may be I am wrong: if I have a knowledge, it is not means that everyone has this knowledge too? :(

Edited by - Zoom on Sep 15 2015 03:13:13 AM
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Jacques M.
France
2018 Posts
Posted - Sep 22 2015 :  11:22:03 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

Wow!
I just come back after a two weeks' absence, and I find this incredible work by altix and alzo. Sure, congratulations are not enough...

No doubt that Fed-Arsenal have existed. And the details which are given lead towards the same conclusion: the remaining parts, tools and plans have been transfered to Kiev, and the Fed-Arsenal cameras can be considered as a training work for Arsenal, just before the "Wega-Kiev".

Two questions, at least (!) remain open.

The variety of these cameras is great. So, very probably, some parts of the original work were not immediately used, and mounted after with Zorki parts. If 150000 cameras a year were planned and we only have half a dozen of them, sure there can be extra parts...

The other question is about the Fed history. By what Krushchev says, I understand that N 237 (Berdsk?) was unable to reconstruct a production line. But they could have done a mounting work, from the Kharkov parts.

So, we could have a more complex history, where there are three places where Feds can have been made in those years: Kharkov, Berdsk and Kiev. There is too a fourth one which is possible: Krasnogorsk. The Fed 1e are too fine to have been made at Berdsk's. They have the same quality as the Fed-Zorkis. And the Zeiss screw lenses, officially recorded "for Fed", were delivered at KMZ's and mounted on Fed-Zorkis... But it's another story!

Zoom, you say that the existence of Fed-Arsenals is well known? Could you explain, please?

Merci, altix et alzo!
Amitis. Jacques.


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Zoom
564 Posts
Posted - Sep 22 2015 :  3:33:01 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.


The other question is about the Fed history. By what Krushchev says, I understand that N 237 (Berdsk?) was unable to reconstruct a production line. But they could have done a mounting work, from the Kharkov parts.


The plant number 237 is "Kazansky optiko-mekhanichesky zavod" -- KOMZ.
Some additional information (but in Russian) you may find there:
http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/history/davidov-from-lupe.html (a brief plants' history and an information about numbers)
http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/misc/gko-docs.html (decrees of the State Defense Committee -- GKO)
http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/misc/letter-snk-ukssr-13021945-552.html (Khruschev's letter with comments)

quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.


Zoom, you say that the existence of Fed-Arsenals is well known?


Yes... These cameras have long been known. As I understand, they were considered as fakes. This is not surprising: the market was swamped with forgeries made in Ukraine (plus Poland). However, it is possible that some "made in Arsenal" FEDs are fakes. Unfortunately, this story is interesting to me only as a part of the KMZ's history. The rest I'm not interested... In particular -- this cameras themselves. From the word "absolutely". ;)

Edited by - Zoom on Sep 22 2015 3:58:08 PM
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Jacques M.
France
2018 Posts
Posted - Sep 23 2015 :  07:49:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

Thanks for your confirmation about the genuineness of the Fed-Arsenals, Zoom, even if I am a bit surprised by its delay. Since the time we have discussed of these cameras!

About the n 237, you confirm it was KOMZ plant? (sorry, I cannot read Russian and the translator is not operative).

Amitis. Jacques.
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Zoom
564 Posts
Posted - Sep 23 2015 :  08:33:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.


About the n 237, you confirm it was KOMZ plant?


Yes, it was the future KOMZ. At that time this plant had another publicly name: "Volzhskiy optiko-mekhanicheskiy zavod" (The Volga Optical and Mechanical Plant).

P.S. Need I to explain where Contax cameras must been manufactured? ;)

Edited by - Zoom on Sep 23 2015 08:39:36 AM
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altix
Ukraine
149 Posts
Posted - Sep 23 2015 :  08:34:06 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dear Jacques,

it is not a delay but rather copy-paste of the previous contributions from this thread. I am very appreciated Bill Parkinson for his skepticism that forced us to go to archives and find the documents. To my knowledge no documents were shown elsewhere prior this thread that confirm the originality of FED Arsenal.

with best regards
altix
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Zoom
564 Posts
Posted - Sep 23 2015 :  08:47:35 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by altix

To my knowledge no documents were shown elsewhere prior this thread that confirm the originality of FED Arsenal.


A careful reading of the book " "" .. " (, " ", 1986)* -- is enough. ;)
But this is not the only source, of course.

*) -- The history of the "Arsenal" plant named by V.I. Lenin. -- Kiev, "Navukova Dumka" publishing, 1986.

Edited by - Zoom on Sep 23 2015 08:49:42 AM
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altix
Ukraine
149 Posts
Posted - Sep 23 2015 :  09:03:02 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yes, this book cites the article from Radianska Ukraina that is given here. This citation alone cannot serve as a proof of Arsenal camera originality since the phrase there "...soon here would appear the camera on which people would search usual trademark FED but would find another - a Kiev one. " is not fully clear. The strong support for FED Arsenal originality is given by Khrushev letter. Above I just pointed out that the letter of Khrushchev to Ustinov on zenitcamera is taken from this thread.

Edited by - altix on Sep 23 2015 09:05:01 AM
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Posted - Sep 23 2015 :  10:04:18 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by altix

Yes, this book cites the article from Radianska Ukraina that is given here. This citation alone cannot serve as a proof of Arsenal camera originality since the phrase there "...soon here would appear the camera on which people would search usual trademark FED but would find another - a Kiev one. " is not fully clear.

Is not fully clear? Not for me... ;)
The Khrushchev's persistent desire to drag manufacture cameras to Kiev was known. FED, Exakta, Contax cameras... This letter is not the only one. It was still appeal to the GKO (not sure what to Stalin). This history as a whole is clear, just some details are unknown...
P.S. Sorry my English...

Edited by - Zoom on Sep 23 2015 10:06:59 AM
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altix
Ukraine
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Posted - Sep 23 2015 :  10:18:00 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Is not fully clear? Not for me... ;)


this great, Zoom. I think it is easy to understand for people from the territories of former Soviet Union. But I had some private discussions where this quote was not considered as a definite proof (especially taking into account that the book is from 1986). Therefore some additional effort was needed.
It is pity that you joined this discussion late enough.

P.S. the citation of Radianska Ukraina in the book is given with the mistake (wrong datum).
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Posted - Sep 23 2015 :  1:10:51 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by altix

P.S. the citation of Radianska Ukraina in the book is given with the mistake (wrong datum).


You mean the page 337, note #6?
The source: " , 1945, 12 " -- what is wrong? The list number 12?
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altix
Ukraine
149 Posts
Posted - Sep 23 2015 :  1:20:47 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I need to have a look but as far as i remember it was cited as 12th November and not as 12th October. That misprint caused a problem by first request in archives.
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1008 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Sep 23 2015 :  3:08:11 PM  Show Profile  Visit nightphoto's Homepage  Reply with Quote
As I see it, so far, from the information and documents found or now known to us through the forum (thank you, Alzo, Altix, Zoom) :

1. The Khrushchev - Ustinov document states that all the FED parts and manufacturing equipment were sent to Zavod No. 237 (The Volga Optical and Mechanical Plant , future Kazan - KOMZ). And, that No. 237 did not work on the construction of cameras (and so parts and equipment was probably sitting at Kazan between 1941 and 1945).

If true: This may leave Berdsk out of the picture. There may be no FED Berdsk. Also it would mean that all the FEDs were made at Kharkov before Sept. 1941(with the exception of some possibly being made by Arsenal in 1945 - 1946) - not some at Berdsk.

2. The Khrushchev document requests Ustinov to order factory No. 237 to transfer of all equipment, devices, incomplete production, and documentation to Ukropromsovet. Here I have a question, which is:

What is Ukropromsovet? Is it the Arsenal Factory, or is it a military or government department?

3. The Khrushchev document also asks Ustinov to assist in the starting of camera production through use of the mentioned optical and control-measuring equipment. Which is listed as:

a) Equipment 23 items (appendix 1)
b) Control-measuring equipment 26 items (appendix 2)

Here, my question (maybe not an important question) is:
What are these items and are appendix1 and appendix 2 available to see?


4. The newspaper articles are very interesting but more like propaganda than documentary. It is not clear to me that the articles speak of actual production of a FED at Arsenal, or if possibly the writers are just relaying information from Government officials that there will be new camera production of rangefinder cameras. At the time, the idea that these cameras could be like a Contax was probably not thought of yet, except by the people who were involved in bringing the equipment and parts from Germany, and so it may have been assumed that it would be a FED camera that was going to be made.


To me, although the Khrushchev document may clarify a certain question about where the FED parts were during the War and possibly change the Berdsk story, it does not authenticate the actual two versions of the FED-Arsenal that we have been discussing. I still have many questions about these specific cameras that can best be answered by careful examination of the parts they are constructed from. If they are made from evacuated parts from Kharkov then the parts should all be consistent with pre-War FED parts. They will not be considered authentic if they are made of mixtures of parts, especially if the engraved rangefinder housings are from later cameras, but the engraving is identical to examples thathave pre-War rangefinder housings. Also, between different examples, the vulcanite used must be compared, as well as the indentations on the housings for the rewind lever and other construction and parts details.

As Zoom has said:

Yes... These cameras have long been known. As I understand, they were considered as fakes. This is not surprising: the market was swamped with forgeries made in Ukraine (plus Poland). However, it is possible that some "made in Arsenal" FEDs are fakes. Unfortunately, this story is interesting to me only as a part of the KMZ's history. The rest I'm not interested... In particular -- this cameras themselves. From the word "absolutely". ;)

I am not ready to make the leap to authenticity of the FED-Arsenals that we know exist, just because there is documentation that Khrushchev ordered a transfer of parts and equipment and wanted to start camera production in the Ukraine. This is good historical information, but, in my opinion, is not solid proof of the authenticity of either of the versions of FED-Arsenal that we have seen.


Regards, Bill

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Posted - Sep 23 2015 :  4:04:30 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nightphoto

... And, that No. 237 did not work on the construction of cameras (and so parts and equipment was probably sitting at Kazan between 1941 and 1945).


Between November 1942 and 1945... So they in Berdsk had about six months in 1942... ;) I can't say anything, because never interested in these (FED-Berdsk) cameras. May be "yes", may be "no"... But during the war not to the production of cameras.
(Btw. in summer of 1944, FED factory management building fired. All design and technological departments documentation was destroyed.)

quote:
Originally posted by nightphoto

What is Ukropromsovet? Is it the Arsenal Factory, or is it a military or government department?


This "Ukropromsovet" (more correct name is: "Ukrpromrada") was an Ukrainian Industrial Cooperatives Union head organization.
See notes on the page http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/misc/letter-snk-ukssr-13021945-552.html

Khrushchev was not an idiot, but his proposals in this letter* were idiotic...
Nevertheless, he achieved his goal. Not quite as planned, but...

*) -- Btw, this letter looks like an order.

Edited by - Zoom on Sep 23 2015 4:33:50 PM
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altix
Ukraine
149 Posts
Posted - Sep 23 2015 :  9:23:46 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Khrushchev was not an idiot, but his proposals in this letter* were idiotic...


I am not a great expert to evaluate Khrushchev's level of idiocy or stupidity of his orders. I address you to the nice survey on the topic of Zeiss reparations of Dr. Matthias Uhl in the book "Sowjetische Demontagen in Deutschland 1944-1949. Hintergruende, Ziele und Wirkungen" (Berlin 2002). I translate some parts from this book to make the matters clear. in the following RGAE is the Russian State Archive on Economics. (sorry for my poor translation)

"In September 1944 the State Planing Committee by Council of People Commissariats of USSR asked every People Commissariat to provide the information about the German factories that are interesting for them to be dismantled. In the beginning of 1945 this information was further specified and updated. For every People Commissariat was created the "target lists". (cf. letter of the Head of agricultural-machine building by People Commissariat of Mortars, Hlomov, to the director of production department, Dolozhenko, 13, 11. 1944 in RGAE 7962/1/196; Letter of assistant of director of State Optical Institute (GOI), Vanin, to the chief of 2. Main Administration of NKV, Frejberg, 13.8.1945, in RGAE, 7572/2/1018 )"

"Finally in Moscow was decided which administration departments would obtain factories in Jena. The special committee by Counsel of People Commissariat hand over the firma Carl Zeiss to People Commissariat of Armament immediately after the occupation of Thueringen, i.e. in July 1945 (The letter of Ustinov to Berija, 26.10.1946, in RGAE, 8157/1/1089). This commissariat applied for this factory by State Planing Committee previously (in 1944). Since the People Commissariat for Armament was the main producer of optical goods this decision did not meet any protest of other Commissariats. In this situation, the People Commissar of Armament, Dmitriy Ustinov, asked other Ministries, which were interested in optical production of Zeiss factory, to apply through the 2nd Central Administration of his Commissariat. This administration tried to fulfill all incoming requests. at the same time the applicants were able to have a look on necessary technical documentation and blueprints. (For example the People Commissariat for Shipbuilding obtained from Jena rangefinders, cf. the letter of Head of 2. Central Administration of People Commissariat of Armament, Dobrowolskij, to commissioner of Zeiss factory of people Commissariat of Armament, Nikolaev, 6.10.1945 RGAE 7572/2/1018). In this way all possible concurrence from other ministries was eliminated from the very beginning.


In August 1945 the Committee of 2nd Central Administration inspected the conditions in Jena for dismantlement. In their report they propose to Soviet specialists the following actions:

"a) Organisation of thorough inspection of production in Zess factory and Shott by Soviet scientists, constructors, technologs and specialists within the period not less than 6 months. Afterwards the Zeiss factory must be dismantled.

b)During this period Zeiss and Shott factories in Jena should continue the production of civil optics and optical glass.
Simultaneously in Soviet Union the production and leaving places must be prepared for transported Zeiss factory." (The report of commission of Ministeriums of Armament about Zeiss factory and Shott, 18.8.1945, RGAE, 7572/2/1019 )

...In plans of People Commissariat of Armament in Moscow the idea to transport the whole Zeiss factory to one place was considered as impossible. They decided therefore to split the factory into six Soviet optical factories. The expert commission in Jena was against this proposition. They were afraid that the split of production line into separate pices could badly influence the production quality and that "this can cause the demolition of production that has universal importance". As an alternative the specialists of 2nd Central Administration proposed to empty completely the optical factories Nr 349 in Leningrad and Nr 356 in Sverdlovsk and transport there the machinery from Jena, Saalfeld, Poessneck and Gera. (Report on assignment in Zeiss factory, 18.8.1945 in RGAE 7572/2/1127, In Leningrad was planned to produce measurement-, military- , astro-equipment and microscopes, whereas in Sverdlovsk - Geoequipment and optical lenses. ) Simultaneously expert commission concluded that successful reconstruction of factory in USSR would be possible only in the case when many German specialists would also arrive.

In the beginning of September 1945 the People Commissariat for Armament started the concrete planning of dismantling process.
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altix
Ukraine
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Posted - Sep 23 2015 :  9:53:18 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So, first of all, everything connected with optical production was regulated by Ustinov bureau. That is why Khrushchev wrote the letter to him. I do not consider his letter idiotic. During the war no FED cameras production was started in Kazan as we infer from the letter. I doubt that after the war this production would be organized there. At the same time in destroyed Kiev were people who wanted to assemble optical devices. Why the letter is idiotic?

Since already in February 1945 it was realized that Zeiss factory would be in the Soviet occupation zone it is completely reasonable that its dismantling was only a matter of time. Khrushchev was most probably aware about these plans and started actively prepare the place and workers for the future production. I can only wonder his speed (11 February - end of Yalta conference, 13 February - Khrushchev's letter). FED Arsenal was probably a good idea to teach ex-dairymaids how to assemble cameras.

The statement that Khrushchev decided to bring Zeiss Jena production in Kiev is wrong. The only person who decided was Ustinov. Ustinov (and I assume Berija) were the people who decided to split the factory into 6 parts. Ustinov's subordinate, Dobrovolskiy, thought that the factory should be transported to Leningrad and Sverdlovsk. If Ustinov decided that time to take Dobrovolski's opinion into account, then I would hardly imagine KMZ or optical division in Arsenal.

I do not really understand any mythology connected with Volga camera. To my knowledge there were no definite plans of optical plant construction in Stalingrad. Probably that were dreams of Dobrovolski or Turygin? The later asked to prepare the drawings of a new camera with conventional name "Volga".

The transportation of equipment from Goerz factory in Berlin, Zeiss Ikon factory in Jena, Voightlaender production line in early 1945 to Moscow, Kiev and Leningrad, was also regulated by Ustinov.

Edited by - altix on Sep 23 2015 10:38:12 PM
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altix
Ukraine
149 Posts
Posted - Sep 23 2015 :  10:32:21 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:

Here, my question (maybe not an important question) is:
What are these items and are appendix1 and appendix 2 available to see?


I've found that these appendices are not interesting. But I can share them if you really want.

quote:
The newspaper articles are very interesting but more like propaganda than documentary. It is not clear to me that the articles speak of actual production of a FED at Arsenal, or if possibly the writers are just relaying information from Government officials that there will be new camera production of rangefinder cameras. At the time, the idea that these cameras could be like a Contax was probably not thought of yet, except by the people who were involved in bringing the equipment and parts from Germany, and so it may have been assumed that it would be a FED camera that was going to be made.


In archives one can find other documentation on FED Arsenal cameras that are more official. There exists a problem to obtain the permission to copy them but interested people can find them and read them directly in the archive. But we are working on getting such a permission to copy.

The mention of Contax camera is connected directly with Contax camera production.In the beginning of October 1945 Zeiss specialists were asked to start Contax camera production for Soviet Union. The article in the newspaper is from 15.10.1945. The director of Arsenal plant knew since August 1945 about the future dismantlement of Zeiss Jena factory and was preparing the place for it. 17.10.1945 Major Turygin ordered blueprints of Contax camera and lenses for the future production in USSR. Note that there is no official name for the camera. Probably for Zeiss workers the conventional name "Volga" is used in blueprints (from 9.11.1945). Kiev logo appeared one year later.

It is worth to note that nobody from Zeiss factory was aware of future dismantlement. In August 1945 one Soviet lieutenant-colonel
said on meeting in Carl Zeiss Jena factory "We have with certain intention completely dismantled Zeiss Ikon in Dresden and Berlin, since we needed the machinery for our serial production in Russia. The situation with Zeiss (Jena) is completely different. The factory should remain in its original place to be able to solve the plethora of tasks, since in this field the factory is unique in the whole world " (Bestand Betriebsarchiv Carl Zeiss Nr 15135).
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Posted - Sep 24 2015 :  12:48:47 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by altix

So, first of all, everything connected with optical production was regulated by Ustinov bureau. That is why Khrushchev wrote the letter to him. I do not consider his letter idiotic. During the war no FED cameras production was started in Kazan as we infer from the letter. I doubt that after the war this production would be organized there. At the same time in destroyed Kiev were people who wanted to assemble optical devices. Why the letter is idiotic?


I see that you didn't read notes in the page http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/misc/letter-snk-ukssr-13021945-552.html :(

quote:
Originally posted by altix

FED Arsenal was probably a good idea to teach ex-dairymaids how to assemble cameras.


Sorry, no comments... Kiev... an ex-dairymaids...

quote:
Originally posted by altix

The statement that Khrushchev decided to bring Zeiss Jena production in Kiev is wrong. The only person who decided was Ustinov.


Yes, but he can be ordered through GKO. What was done.

quote:
Originally posted by altix

I do not really understand any mythology connected with Volga camera. To my knowledge there were no definite plans of optical plant construction in Stalingrad.

I see that you didn't read notes in the page http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/misc/letter-snk-ukssr-13021945-552.html :(

Btw, a collection center of all documentation, most part of optical instruments and equipment, coming from Germany, was Krasnogorsk.
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1008 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Sep 24 2015 :  01:03:23 AM  Show Profile  Visit nightphoto's Homepage  Reply with Quote

Thank you for the information. I believe that the story and most details concerning the 'Contax to Kiev' story are well-known and the political relationships are interesting. What I was saying about the propaganda style newspaper articles is that basically they did not know about the Contax - Kiev story at the time the articles were written and so it may have been confusing to the authors of the article when the officials just told them that there was going to be large camera production in Kiev soon. They may have thought that it would be FEDs when in reality the plan was for Contax-like cameras, what we now know as the 'Kiev'. Whether this is the case or not, I believe that the main starting point of this forum subject was: Are the cameras that we know of and call 'FED-Arsenal' (Serial numbers: 00004, 00020, 00067, 00070, 00216, 00222) authentic made by the Arsenal Zavod during immediate post-War times, or are they fakes, made by forgers at a much later time? This is the question.

I agree that the historical facts that are coming to light, or have been known for some time by some, lead to a clear conclusion that camera manufacturing was directed to Arsenal Zavod during this period, and the exact history is very interesting, but so far does not show clearly or prove that either any FED cameras were made at Arsenal or that the cameras we have seen (serial numbers above) are not fakes or forgeries. I will not say that they are fakes, but that they have not been proven to be authentic. To prove they are authentic there will have to be dated photographs showing them with details visible, passports or instruction manuals, or actual documents that describe them in detail from the factory. In addition, the details of construction of the cameras will have to make sense in the constraints of the time period that they were thought to have been made.

I have no doubt that if these cameras are authentic that there will be indisputable proof in one of these forms existing, and that it will eventually show up. Or enough examples that can be examined in detail and be compared will accumulate over time and tell a story. But to try to obtain a consensus of authenticity for these cameras without actual primary documentary proof, or consistent viewable details on a number of examples, is just not possible.

There are many questions still unanswered. For example why are there two models or varieties of logos, each group with a different range of serial numbers. It is okay to guess things like some were given to factory workers and poor workmanship of chroming is due to 'milkmaids' (of course most women in Ukraine were milkmaids during hard times of war and they had to milk the cows, and the women in the photo with theodolites look highly skilled, very intelligent). But two ranges of serial numbers can also mean that the first range is authentic and the second higher range are fakes made in a much higher serial number range so that there would not be two of the same number (why a number of cameras up to 00070 and then none until 00216?). It is a strange numbering and needs an explanation.

So maybe I go on too long (as we can all agree and I am always certain to provide material for controversy) and I appreciate the hard work and good results of the research that has been done, but volume of information alone will not make it be so. It will have to be proven and I hope that real proof about these cameras will come soon. Sometimes it can take a while as we all can see with the evolving story of 'FED Berdsk' and the untold story of TSVVS.

Regards, Bill

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altix
Ukraine
149 Posts
Posted - Sep 24 2015 :  01:37:19 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
I see that you didn't read notes in the page http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/misc/letter-snk-ukssr-13021945-552.html :(

Btw, a collection center of all documentation, most part of optical instruments and equipment, coming from Germany, was Krasnogorsk.


Alas, it seems that we speak about two histories that happened in parallel universes. So far on the given link I see only some your thoughts that are doubtful.

I know that during the first stage of dismantling (fall 1945) some documentation on military optics was brought to Krasnogorsk. During the complete dismantling (fall 1946) the documents were transferred to KMZ by specially ordered planes. The documentation from Zeiss Ikon (Dresden) was lost in fire. Krasnogorsk was chosen as the main optical production center much latter than the time I am speaking about. I can give you the exact weight of dismantled equipment and raw materials for every factory in a list. And Krasnogorsk was only one among another factories that are in a list. Say, Krasnogorsk obtained 722 t semi-assembled pieces of production, Leningrad (factory Nr 349) - 1705.95 t, Lytkarino (factory Nr 233) - 3843 t, Kiev - 667.7t. The distribution of machinery among factories was almost equal. Kiev obtained less machinery since it had already some tools brought from Dresden.

I do not understand you when you want to show some superiority of KMZ. Its superiority in some sense appeared in 1948-49. Krasnogorks was the first factory among the others which successfully started its production. The factory tried to use the production discipline of Zeiss factory. It is true. I was always amazed by high quality of early Krasnogorsk products and appreciate your work done on its history but I have different opinion concerning some of your comments and interpretations.

Yes, in Arsenal among few specialists worked ex-dairymaids. There is no wonder since after the war males were rare to find in post-war Kiev. Some people were still on their way back to home. Krasnogork escaped the destiny to be demolished in war fire two times as Kiev was and this is not a reason to put irony here
quote:
Sorry, no comments... Kiev... an ex-dairymaids...


P.S. The complete list of what was transported to what factory and how much you can find here "Short report on the results of dismantling Zeiss and Schott factories in Jena " 2.4.1947 RGAE 7572/2/1129.

Edited by - altix on Sep 24 2015 01:53:08 AM
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Posted - Sep 24 2015 :  03:36:54 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by altix

I do not understand you when you want to show some superiority of KMZ.

I'm not going to claim this. So I don't understand what you don't understand... ;)

Btw.: There is such a thing in the Russian railways: The default city. You see only the ends of the roads, the destinations... But in any case, all railway carriages will pass through this Default center.

quote:
Originally posted by altix

Yes, in Arsenal among few specialists worked ex-dairymaids.


Sorry, but where in Kiev you can find dairymaids? Just logically explain me this point... However, you may not answer. It is not an interesting discussion...

quote:
Originally posted by altix

The complete list of what was transported to what factory and how much you can find here "Short report on the results of dismantling Zeiss and Schott factories in Jena " 2.4.1947 RGAE 7572/2/1129

Thank you! You helped me a lot!
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Jacques M.
France
2018 Posts
Posted - Sep 24 2015 :  04:06:31 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

To come back to our main discussion, we can think, now, that one or two series of Fed-Arsenal were really made at Arsenal's. I have said "think"! Of course, we don't have any material proof. But thanks to Altix's and Alzo's researches, we know really much more about these years.

There is something which puzzles me too. The history of Fed seems more and more complex. The way from Kharkov to Kharkov, during and after the war, was tortuous. Berdsk, and now Kazan and Kiev: what was the exact role of these places in Fed history? Finally, which camera was mounted or made where?

I had ideas, but I am not sure they are always valid!

Jacques.

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altix
Ukraine
149 Posts
Posted - Sep 24 2015 :  04:31:17 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dear Zoom,

quote:
Thank you! You helped me a lot!

if you need these data, please contact me. I can share them with you for your cite.

And dairymaids came from nearest villages. The post-war years were a good chance to stay in the city and I think it was much easily to survive in cities (I think).

If you really have documentary proof that the creation of optical plant in Kazan was planned together with the production of Volga cameras I would be very appreciated for such documents. Say, Peter Hennig writes that Volga is the working name for Contax cameras production in USSR. In the view of available information I have the same opinion.

I agree with Bill that there is a long way to get the whole picture about this period of history and probably many aspects would remain unclear. But it is nice that we discuss the subject and there are a lot of new information and interesting opinions.

Edited by - altix on Sep 24 2015 04:32:31 AM
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Posted - Sep 24 2015 :  07:37:39 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by altix

if you need these data, please contact me.


I have already contacted... Here. ;)
You can send them.

quote:
Originally posted by altix

Say, Peter Hennig writes that Volga is the working name for Contax cameras production in USSR.


Yes. http://fotos.cconin.de/ussrphoto/conkie_3.pdf -- for example. Then there is a simple logic: what brand is peculiar to the "Volzhskiy optiko-mekhanicheskiy zavod"? If known that on this new plant was planned to produce cameras...
Do not wait for documents. Many puzzles are solved by an ordinary logic.

P.S.
You read this text: " , ." and think that:
quote:
Originally posted by altix

And dairymaids came from nearest villages.


You believe on this bla-bla-bla ("she came to the plant from the kolkhoz")? That she was taken to work in a military factory without a passport? There is no logic.

Edited by - Zoom on Sep 24 2015 07:55:56 AM
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