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Alfa2
Poland
349 Posts |
 Posted - May 09 2016 : 10:46:23 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lenny
There is also a lens number on the lever but the lens needs to be screwd out off the helicoid to see this number.
I have checked the number. It is also 217. This confirms somehow it is not serial as you wrote it isn't. So this is lens without S/N.
quote:
Originally posted by Lenny
This could be a challenge for ussrphoto.com with its thousand members.
Great, we will have subject to talk about for next 10 years. 
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 09 2016 : 3:56:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Alfa2
Great, we will have subject to talk about for next 10 years.
That's for sure ... if you search every weekend in your boxes for some forgotten gems. I wonder about the other cameras you have. Poland is still a good place to get some great cameras. |
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levonsa
levonsa
Russia
248 Posts |
Posted - May 09 2016 : 4:48:23 PM
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FED #210033 ____ leans #209
FED #210073 ____ leans #3
FED #210193 ____ leans #211
FED #210266 ____ leans #6
FED #210437 ____ leans #26A |
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Alfa2
Poland
349 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2016 : 03:09:07 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lenny
That's for sure ... if you search every weekend in your boxes for some forgotten gems. I wonder about the other cameras you have. Poland is still a good place to get some great cameras.
Polish market was good place to get some great cameras 15 years ago and earlier. Now you can buy here boring things like AF digital equipment or manual not branded (i mean branded by Makinon or Albinar) staff.
And I'd like to have such boxes with many forgotten gems but unfortunalely I don't have them. 
By this what levonsa has written the lens number defintely has nothing to do with camera S/N.
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levonsa
levonsa
Russia
248 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2016 : 03:53:19 AM
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| I thought you only bikers in Poland are not allowed. There is no place for politics, there are the facts! FED #210033 + lens №209 - it's attestat! Or a certificate of your too, is of no importance? |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2016 : 04:27:25 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by levonsa
FED #210033 + lens №209 - it's attestat! Or a certificate of your too, is of no importance?
Alexey, where is #209 stamped? At the lock or away from the lock?
I think if you have to write a passport, you take the number which you can see. But there might be hundred lenses with #209. Can't be a real serial number. |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2016 : 04:46:23 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Alfa2
Polish market was good place to get some great cameras 15 years ago and earlier.
There is this Polish guy in Scottland, 'vintagefotos' on ebay, and he has many other ebay accounts. He often buys in Poland and then sells it for much more in UK. Poland is definitely a place where many Zorkis were sold in the 1950s.
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Alfa2
Poland
349 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2016 : 09:41:06 AM
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Yes Lenny, but Zorkis which were sold in Poland in 50's are absolutely regular ones and there are not so many of them. Big amount of really interesting cameras was imported to Poland in 90's. On our market there is a lot of e.g. Zorki 4 which were officially imported.
I think I know the guy but I have to ask him about his nick on ebay.
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Edited by - Alfa2 on May 10 2016 09:42:08 AM |
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levonsa
levonsa
Russia
248 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2016 : 1:23:31 PM
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Strange, but I have always believed that if the passport number of the lens is written such that it lenses all the same room! And not fiction forum participants!
Lenny, you are doing a lot for the order on the site. It's great! But I also like the position of the wise Jacques! You should never jump to conclusions faster, especially when it comes to the Soviet production. We must weigh everything, consult with all together and make a decision!
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1052016_2.jpg
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2016 : 2:46:13 PM
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Alexey, thanks for the close up photo of the passport.
But you must admit that the first Industar-10 #209 made from Fed should be from the year 1934, a 1-turn lens. Then at some point in time, when Fed changed the serial system, there should be many other Industar-10 also with #209. Helpful would be a close up photo from the back of the lens with the whole M39 ring shown, and maybe even the number on the lever, but the lens needs to be screwed out off the helicoid. I hope we will know more about this I-10 serial system one day.
Thanks |
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Geoff O.
geoffox23
Australia
54 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2016 : 2:54:41 PM
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Lenny
You are comparing prewar with postwar numbering.
Postwar, lens numbering restarted and seems to have no logical system to tie to bodies.
Cheers |
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2016 : 2:58:37 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by geoffox23
Lenny
You are comparing prewar with postwar numbering.
Postwar, lens numbering restarted and seems to have no logical system to tie to bodies.
Cheers
Yes! Thanks. Jacques. |
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levonsa
levonsa
Russia
248 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2016 : 3:02:50 PM
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| geoffox23 thanks for the help! I'm a little tired to explain to the children about the new post-war numbering lenses. By the way the camera itself will start with the new numbering 210,000. |
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2016 : 3:05:03 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by levonsa
geoffox23 thanks for the help! I'm a little tired to explain to the children about the new post-war numbering lenses. By the way the camera itself will start with the new numbering 210,000.
Jacques. |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2016 : 3:29:41 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by geoffox23
Lenny
You are comparing prewar with postwar numbering.
Postwar, lens numbering restarted and seems to have no logical system to tie to bodies.
Cheers
No, I'm not comparing them, but there should be only ONE serial for each lens and not hundrets. To me, this is a kind of batch number, especially when it's not stamped at the lock.
For example, how did KMZ arrange the serial numbers. There could be TWO I-22 with the same serial #5211929, but one is with 'mm' from 1952 and the other is with 'cm' from 1955. It's still possible to separate them. There is only ONE serial for each I-22.
These I-22 are postwar too and are interchangeable on all Zorkis and each has it's own serial and isn't tied to any body. |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2016 : 3:36:02 PM
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Maybe a lens serial number wasn't important for Fed at some point. There are even 50/2 lenses without serial number before the war. It seems Fed didn't need the serials and the numbers stamped have a special meaning, for example to help regulation.
Then there is the girl who has to package the cameras and to write the passport and she writes what is given. But it's not a serial number!!! |
Edited by - Lenny on May 10 2016 3:37:28 PM |
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2016 : 4:27:56 PM
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Of course the serial numbers had a great importance for Fed! Like of any FSU production! If some (rare) lenses don't have numbers, we don't know why.
At this point, I don't understand really what we say, but perhaps it's not important
I just point that the first Fed lenses were 1 turn ones. They were numbered in very tiny ciphers too, which cannot be confused with postwar ones.
That said, by the passport showed by Alexey, the "209" seems a serial number, or I don't understand what is written before. It's "objective = lens", no? Or can it really be "batch of objectives?" Or anything else? We have to take that in consideration and think of what it will lead to. For me, at least, rather than thinking of who had written that...
Jacques.
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Edited by - Jacques M. on May 10 2016 4:34:33 PM |
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Zoom
596 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2016 : 07:36:05 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
That said, I agree with you at, let us say 90% with what you wrote. Especially about Berdsks which were not made at Berdsk and KMZ which used Fed parts. I had said all that (I was not alone!) in 2013 and earlier. I just wonder what happened so that these ideas have something of official now? Zoom's article? With all the respect due to him, it's not enough. Proofs need documents, and I don't see any. Perhaps I missed something?
I did not notice right away ... If we are talking about the article "ZENIT: prehistory", then there is all based on the documents. |
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2016 : 09:31:54 AM
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Zoom,
Happy to know that there are documents which prove that there were no Fed made at Berdsk during the war. My question was in fact more extensive: can we affirm that there were no Fed mounted during the war, at Berdsk or elsewhere? Are there documents too to prove that?
Thanks. Jacques. |
Edited by - Jacques M. on May 12 2016 09:34:11 AM |
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Zoom
596 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2016 : 4:59:41 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
Happy to know that there are documents which prove that there were no Fed made at Berdsk during the war.
This article is not about the production of cameras in Berdsk. But, indeed, the FED production on the plant No.296 NKAP has been discontinued. The plant is fully switched to military production.
quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
My question was in fact more extensive: can we affirm that there were no Fed mounted during the war, at Berdsk or elsewhere? Are there documents too to prove that?
The FED factory (No.296 NKAP) gave all its optical part according the GKO order No.2445 (23 October 1942).
http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/misc/gko-2445.html
All optical equipment, materials and so on were taken away. Nevertheless, a certain number of cameras left. According to the factory's history book, the plant began to assemble cameras in 1946, as I remember. But there is no documentary evidence to the cameras assembly before February 1946...
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Edited by - Zoom on May 13 2016 12:46:49 AM |
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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
1871 Posts
My Collection
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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
1871 Posts
My Collection
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 12:25:19 AM
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Thanks Zoom.
So, we are always at the same point, more or less. If I try to summarize:
All the Fed 1e could have been completely produced at Kharkov before evacuation. That said, the timing seems unrealistic by the passports we have (I have added dates and numbers found on Alexey's site):
- s/n 164716 : 18/3/41,
- s/n 168018 : 18/6/41,
- s/n 175118 : 21/6/41,
- s/n 175524 : 21/6/41,
- s/n 181100 : 30/7/41,
- s/n 180024 (S):31/7/41.
To produce 12000 cameras in 45 days is impossible. Were some cameras mounted elsewhere? Or are there "big" holes in the numbering, as the JLP suggests?
It is unlikely that cameras were produced at Berdsk's plant during the war. On the other hand, it's not completely impossible that some were only mounted from parts coming from Kharkov, after the evacuation.
All the remaining materials were transferred to Krasnogorsk in 1942. So, KMZ too could have played his part concerning the mounting of Fed 1e after the war. After all, there is no real difference in quality between Fed-Zorkis and Fed 1e.
Berdsk produced the NKAP "Red Flag", probably from already existing spare parts, in 1946.
Arsenal produced the Fed-Arsenal in 1946-47, in very small numbers, from existing and "home" made parts.
Fed-Kharkov resumed the production in june 1948 (the first Fed 1f).
What an entangled story... The main question remains of course the place of production/mounting for the 1e. We only have hypothesis, absolutely no certitude... Certainly, we miss a major fact?
Amitiés. Jacques.
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Edited by - Jacques M. on May 13 2016 06:55:01 AM |
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Zoom
596 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 12:47:38 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Luiz Paracampo
Link does not work
Corrected, sorry. |
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Zoom
596 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 12:58:04 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
All the remaining materials were transferred to Krasnogorsk in 1942.
No. A personnel only. Their number is not known (a list of the names is incomplete). A few dozen people (maximum)... |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 05:43:24 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
the timing seems unrealistic by the passports we have (I have added dates and numbers found on Alexey's site):
- s/n 175118 : 21/6/41,
- s/n 181100 : 30/7/41,
To produce 12000 cameras in 45 days is impossible.
All the remaining materials were transferred to Krasnogorsk in 1942.
Jacques, as I understood it the Fed equipment was transferred to KOMZ in November 1942 and was stored there till it was transferred to Arsenal in Febuary 1945. KMZ might have gotten everything after Arsenal stopped producing as Altix assumed.
Why do you think of 12000 cameras?
Where did you find those 2 passports? |
Edited by - Lenny on May 13 2016 05:51:58 AM |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 05:56:54 AM
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Jacques, now I understand why 12000. Forget about this passport #168018, it is out off the line of other passports.
It could simply be that they wrote 18 VI 1941 instead of 18 IV 1941 for #168018. |
Edited by - Lenny on May 13 2016 06:35:11 AM |
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 06:42:27 AM
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quote:
Why do you think of 12000 cameras?
181100 - 168018 # 13000 cameras in 42 days. Of course impossible.
And 7000 cameras in 3 days it's impossible too!
The passport of the S s/n 180024 was established on a Kharkov paper. We don't know for the others.
Of course, the passports can have been filled in a hurry after the parts were made for the corresponding cameras. But it doesn't enlighten the whole question.
We have a real problem of comprehension between number of cameras/passports/location of production concerning these Fed 1e.
Jacques. |
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 06:53:35 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lenny
Jacques, now I understand why 12000. Forget about this passport #168018, it is out off the line of other passports.
It could simply be that they wrote 18 VI 1941 instead of 18 IV 1941 for #168018.
There, I cannot follow you. I postule that the only way to understand the situation is to follow the documents we have, not to criticize them. Even if they don't make us pleasure!
BTW, I have found, always on Alexey's site, the s/n 175524, with the same date of 21/6/41... It goes towards the same way. I add it in my precedent listing.
Jacques. |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 07:21:34 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
I postule that the only way to understand the situation is to follow the documents we have, not to criticize them.
Of course, but we have to check if the numbers are possible.
From #164716 till #168018 they produced 252 cameras per week according to the passports, very less.
From #168018 till #175118 they produced 17750 per week. Easy to recognize a mistake here.
But from #164716 till #175118 they produced 765 cameras per week. This is possible and seems very accurate.
Just forget about passport #168018. Also forget about passport #181100. Calculate from #180024 till the last in the wiki #183892 and it's 586 cameras per week till evacuation.
Now if we calculate with 765 per week from #180024 till evacuation a camera #185073 could be possible. So we are pretty much on the safe side that all were produced in Kharkov before evacuation. |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 07:38:46 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lenny
From #164716 till #168018 they produced 252 cameras per week according to the passports, very less.
From #168018 till #175118 they produced 17750 per week. Easy to recognize a mistake here.
If we calculate with month IV (April) instead of VI (June) we will get an amazing result. What I quoted above will change to THIS.
From #164716 till #168018 they produced 750 cameras per week.
From #168018 till #175118 they produced 780 per week.
Amazing right
It's just a human mistake, who is used to write with roman figures. |
Edited by - Lenny on May 13 2016 07:41:22 AM |
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 07:55:20 AM
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What can I say?
You are funny, Lenny. You chose the passports which agree you. And you ask me to forget two of them. But I cannot!
I think we have questions to put concerning the passports and their exact correlation with cameras. This period june/september 1941 was exceptional, and Fed could have used urgency procedures...
Jacques.
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 08:02:46 AM
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Jacques, there could be other possibilities.
Imagine, camera #168018 was produced and didn't pass the quality control, so it had to be repaired.
We should follow of course the passports we have, but not all. If the majority of passport match our calculation we are pretty much on the right side.
Also we have to understand how the serials were produced. For examle serial #160000 was engraved and was put in an big empty bucket. Later #160999 was engraved and was put on top of the bucket which is now full of engraved top plates. Next step in production is assembling. It starts with the top plate on top of the bucket, #160999. Much later top plate #160000 was assembled.
That's why passports #180024 and #181100 can both be true, even if passport #181100 was written the day before. But we calculate with #180024 till evacuation which is much harder than if we calculated with #181100. |
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 08:10:19 AM
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quote:
If the majority of passport match our calculation we are pretty much on the right side.
Just no. |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 08:25:10 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
You are funny, Lenny. You chose the passports which agree you. And you ask me to forget two of them. But I cannot!
I think we have questions to put concerning the passports and their exact correlation with cameras. This period june/september 1941 was exceptional, and Fed could have used urgency procedures...
Jacques, there is no correct correlation as some might think. As we can see, #181100 was produced 1 day before #180024. But we are very correct if we say they were both made in July. #168018 is just an bad example to calculate with, but we know they were not able to produce 7100 cameras within 3 days. We know it's impossible to produce cameras consecutive to their serials. Then there is the quality control which put some cameras on hold. We are pretty much on the right side with all other passports. |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 08:31:25 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
quote:
If the majority of passport match our calculation we are pretty much on the right side.
Just no.
Then you have to believe that they produced 7100 cameras in 3 days (#168018-#175118). And in this case you are VERY WRONG.
And you have to believe that they produced 3302 cameras in 92 days (#164716-#168018). |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 08:40:26 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
The passport of the S s/n 180024 was established on a Kharkov paper. We don't know for the others.
We have a real problem of comprehension between number of cameras/passports/location of production concerning these Fed 1e.
#164716 is Lesopark 54 too. I have a photo. |
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 09:02:55 AM
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We just have to try and understand. Not to correct anything.
But all that is boring. Once more time, that turns into a personal quarrel. I am not interested.
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 09:22:53 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
We just have to try and understand. Not to correct anything.
But all that is boring. Once more time, that turns into a personal quarrel. I am not interested.
Yes, we have to understand that lower serial numbers are also at the bottom of the bucket during production and will be assembled later. We have to understand that quality control can put cameras on hold. We have to understand that there are not only engraving errors with digits missing or digits added, there can also be errors when writting VI instead of IV on a passport. But all information together shows a very accurate picture which is enough to know what kind of production was possible at that time. |
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 11:48:29 AM
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Bravo for this personal interpretation with buckets, quality control and errors of writing! It's a long time since I have been keen on Feds, and I never saw so clearly how they worked inside the factory. Thanks!
That said, once more, it is always not completely impossible that Fed 1e were entirely made in Kharkov. But, even if there can be a mistake (!), I go on doubting, specially for the last 2-3000 last ones for which we don't have passport. We can suppose that the emergency was rather on the evacuation. But I repeat myself and now this discussion is finished for me, unless there is a new fact, of course! |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 12:23:30 PM
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Jacques, I forgot where I saw it, but I saw a photo of Zorki production when they molded the top plates I think, and there was a bucket so big that a person could hide in it Sure Zorki was real mass production.
Jacques, it seems you never saw passport #168018. I can tell you, I never saw it too. I might have gotten the information about #168018 from the wiki. As long as we don't have prove that this passport exists we should put the information on hold. Maybe someone from the BFM put that information there. Do you know the BFM, the Berdsk Fake Mafia. Then this Mafia spread the news that even Fed-1d were produced in Berdsk and they set up a table with information about Joschkar-Ola, which Zoom calls a not reliable sourse and a piece made in delirium.
But I can tell you, I saw the passport #164716. |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 12:39:41 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
Bravo for this personal interpretation with buckets
Jacques, please check Princelle's book, page 124 ok, they don't look like buckets, more like container |
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Zoom
596 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 3:54:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lenny
...and they set up a table with information about Joschkar-Ola, which Zoom calls a not reliable sourse and a piece made in delirium.
The Kinap plant from Odessa was transferred to the plant No.297 NKV in Yoshkar-Ola.
Used documents:
GKO Order No.374ss -- August 2, 1941.
GKO Order No.681ss -- September 16, 1941.
Cited also: The Economic Council of the SNK USSR Order No.1880-564s -- December 6, 1940.
Source: Russian State Archive of Socio-Political History (RGASPI), fund (ôîíä): 644, inventory (îïèñü): 2, cases (äåëî): 10 (list 39, par. 16) and 18 (list 84).
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Edited by - Zoom on May 13 2016 4:08:33 PM |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 10:09:15 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
BTW, I have found, always on Alexey's site, the s/n 175524, with the same date of 21/6/41... It goes towards the same way. I add it in my precedent listing.
So the passports of #175118 and #175524 were written on the same day. At first sight people might think that they also wrote all other passports between those two serials on the same day. But that might not be the case. Cameras didn't finish production consecutive to their serials. They were only consecutive engraved during production.
These 2 cameras finished production 12 weeks before evacuation. A production of #183892 (last 1e in the wiki) before evacuation seems possible. They were able to produce 9000 cameras in 12 weeks. |
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Elnur Mehdiyev
elnur
Russia
12 Posts |
Posted - May 14 2016 : 3:16:35 PM
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Good evening guys! why do you think that this is the date of manufacture? I now intended that this date of packaging. and the production of the marriage took place, in consequence of that, some parties came back to troubleshoot.
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 14 2016 : 5:32:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by elnur
Good evening guys! why do you think that this is the date of manufacture? I now intended that this date of packaging. and the production of the marriage took place, in consequence of that, some parties came back to troubleshoot.
Hello Elnur,
I don't exactly understand what you want to say,
but congratulations to your FIRST POST. |
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4212 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - May 15 2016 : 12:32:09 AM
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Welcome Elnur, it's great to have another big FED expert in our midst! What Elnur is trying to say ( I had earlier conversation with him) is that the dates on passports are not the dates of manufacture but the dates of sale. Not all of batches of these cameras would get sold at the same time. These dates on passports are filled in when the cameras are sold, sometimes they would be sold in different sequence and sometimes would sit on shelves of the store for a while so the dates are not actual manufacture dates. Also when cameras are returned to factory for repair because of defects they would get issued new dates on passports.
It's a pleasure and honor to have you here, Elnur! I hope to see more of your participation!
Vlad |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2016 : 02:38:20 AM
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Thanks Elnur.
This makes sense, that the passports were written when the cameras were packaged for sale.
It doesn't make sense that passport dates were written in advance, because once they needed to package the cameras they would need to search for the passports, when writing a passport just takes 1 minute.
Of course the cameras were not sold consecutive to their serial numbers. Cameras with higher serials could be sold earlier.
Later this might have changed little bit when they only wrote the month and year in the passports.
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Edited by - Lenny on May 15 2016 02:41:43 AM |
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2016 : 03:54:42 AM
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Thanks, Vlad, and welcome to you, Elnur!
So, passports show the date of sale. That completely changes the point of view, of course! No possibility to calculate a precise production from the serial numbers, for example. And the 1e were very probably made entirely before the evacuation. No more problem, unless perhaps about the last ones. Were they sold too? When? Always before evacuation? Or reserved to the Red Army, as I had guessed somewhere, half by joke?
No doubt you will help us to put some missing pieces on this entangled puzzle, Elnur. Thanks...
Amitiés. Jacques. |
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Elnur Mehdiyev
elnur
Russia
12 Posts |
Posted - May 16 2016 : 09:58:25 AM
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Thank You all for the warm welcome! I am very pleased )
About packing cameras. I'm certainly not a historian, and do not have enough facts to say it all. But a fresh idea will not harm us. I did not mean that the passports were written in advance. But on the contrary that there had been a batch of cameras, which later had to undergo some checking. After the devices are tested, Packed and were issued certificates. And the devices that were problematic were returned for repair. And possibly from the earlier numbers, but with the late date in the certificate. I think that's why there's the confusion. |
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Topic |
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Fed Berdsk - Known Examples
