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Guido Studer
Guido
Switzerland
362 Posts
My Collection
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 Posted - Mar 15 2008 : 01:52:57 AM
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Hello friends of Zorki cameras
I have done some researches about the "Zorki 3 preserie" cameras and I came to the conclusion, that there don't exist. Well, it's a bit provocative maybe, but after all it makes no sense to talk about "preserie" for normal production cameras, if there are 3000, 6000 or even 12000 items of a full serie of maybe 30000 Zorki 3 (estimated number without the Zorki 3M).
The main problem seems to be the serial numbers of the early Zorki 3 with leading zero(s). But the year of production as part of the serial number was introduced (for cameras!) inital in 1954, but the Zorki 3 was produced in little numbers since 1951 (around 2100 between 1951 and 1953 are sold). In mid (?) 1954 the new system with the year of production in serial numbers was introduced, as by the Zorki 1 line.
There are some difference between the early Zorki 3 and the later ones certainly, but there are changing step by step between 1951 and 1954. Examples: The border of the viewfinder (very soon changed, maybe 1952?), the lock at the slow speed dail (changed 1953/54?) and other details.
The FED-KMZ was a preserie of the FED-Zorki, yes, but that's just an other sitation I think. So wouldn't it better to talk about "early" and "later" Zorki 3?
What do you think about this idea? Any opinions?
Best regards - Guido
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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
973 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Mar 15 2008 : 02:58:50 AM
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Guido,
I like your point of view indeed. All these "preseries" Zorki-3 are the normal evolution of particular camera. And I do clasify them as early ones and late ones. Using word "preseries" can add some value for camera seller, but actually mean nothing for collector himself. It would be great to have Zorki-3 classified from the very first stage ...
Best Regards,
Aidas
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Guido Studer
Guido
Switzerland
362 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Mar 15 2008 : 04:51:12 AM
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Hello Aidas
Thank you for your answer. Yes, that's the point: Making more money with such words like "rare", "preserie" or "prototype" ...
For the classification: I'm working on this at the moment, but don't expect deeper results within the next weeks.
Best wishes - Guido |
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Jacques M.
France
2584 Posts |
Posted - Mar 15 2008 : 12:14:24 PM
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Hello Guido and Aidas,
I call my #00707 Zorki 3 a preseries, but only referring to the double 0 prefix, as it is usual. But I agree with you: it's only an evolution. And this camera is most interesting because it's really a laboratory for the following series.
If I can help, some details seem specific on my 00707:
- the bigger viewfinder up to the limit of the cover,
- the absence of screw against the viewfinder,
- the screw under the rangefinder is in the middle, not on the right,
- the four screws of the accessory clip are not visible,
- the lock at the slow speed dial.
I bought it with a 1952 black rigid Industar 22. Impossible to say if it is the original lens.
Amitiés. Jacques.
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Mar 15 2008 : 12:20:16 PM
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Hello Guido and Aidas,
I agree with you both also. I am always wondering what "pre-series" means and have wondered if the factories or designers considered these models pre-series. It would seem that a pre-series might be a small number of cameras made to test (before the series was made). There is the question of the serial numbers on some of the cameras which might first begin with "000xxx" or something like that when the later series might begin with the year number, like "56xxx", so maybe there are really "pre-series" thought of by the factory.
Probably the camera Aidas has, the Selena ,where only 40 or so were made, may be considered the pre-series to a series that was never produced! So can it be a pre-series if there was no series? Or are these 40 cameras considered all to be prototypes? Very interesting, and I think each individual case may be different.
There are really prototype models, but they are rare and just because a camera has an early serial number does not make it a prototype. For example, the camera I have called "Zorki-35M" is a prototype, with only two or three examples being handmade.
The description "rare" is usually a subjective one and different people like to make money with it for sure, but some stuff is rare and not seen often.
The best thing is when someone does take the time, like Guido, to classify the evolution of a particular camera. Then, everyone has a common way to identify the individual characteristics of a model and, with the additional information of serial numbers, passport dates, etc. the picture becomes more clear. So, good work Guido and I will be very interested in your work on Zorki-3!
Regards, Bill
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4247 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Mar 15 2008 : 1:07:44 PM
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I completely agree with all your points except for one that Guido stated regarding the year introduction in serial numbers... I have Moskva cameras from as early as late 1940s already with year prefixes, so KMZ was already on that system by then, I am not sure whether it was spread to Zorkis yet though..
Vlad. |
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Guido Studer
Guido
Switzerland
362 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Mar 15 2008 : 1:46:57 PM
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Hello Vlad
You're absolutly right, I only talked about the Zorki cameras. Zenit cameras used this system from 1952 on (Zenit 1), M39 lenses for Zorki's at least from 1951 on (Industar 22).
Best wishes - Guido |
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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
973 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Mar 15 2008 : 2:02:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Guido Studer
Hello Vlad
You're absolutly right, I only talked about the Zorki cameras. Zenit cameras used this system from 1952 on (Zenit 1), M39 lenses for Zorki's at least from 1951 on (Industar 22).
Best wishes - Guido
Guido,
let me to remind you, that even BK and ZK lenses already had date prefixes in their serial numbers indeed (both for Contax or Fed-Zorki cameras )... and the Industar-22 "Rigid White" and "Rigid Black" lenses were the first ones to have prefix "50" in their serial, so we should start from 1950 indeed ...
Best Regards,
Aidas |
Edited by - AidasCams on Mar 15 2008 3:16:12 PM |
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Guido Studer
Guido
Switzerland
362 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Mar 15 2008 : 2:27:03 PM
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Hello Jacques
quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
If I can help, some details seem specific on my 00707:
- the bigger viewfinder up to the limit of the cover,
- the absence of screw against the viewfinder,
- the screw under the rangefinder is in the middle, not on the right,
- the four screws of the accessory clip are not visible,
- the lock at the slow speed dial.
Thank you very much for this informations. All this points I had also on my list, but of the four screws of the accessory shoe a wasn't aware of.
An interesting thing is that all the points are also present at Princelles picture of the Zorki 3 prototype (K100, page 131), but the screw left of the viewfinder is there, like at the Zorki 2 prototype (K130, page 130).
Now I'm looking for other pictures and s/n to build a better list.
Best wishes - Guido
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Guido Studer
Guido
Switzerland
362 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Mar 15 2008 : 2:33:52 PM
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Hello Aidas
quote:
Originally posted by AidasCams
let me to remind you, that even BK and ZK lenses already had date prefixes in their serial numbers indeed (both for Contax or Fed-Zorki cameras )... and the Zorki "Rigid white" and "Rigid black" lenses were the first ones to have prefix "50" in their serial, so we should start from 1950 indeed ...
Okay, but I own only one SK lens from 1948 at the moment, with some zeros at the beginning of the s/n ... ;-)
Best wishes - Guido
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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
973 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Mar 15 2008 : 3:34:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Guido Studer
Hello Aidas
quote:
Originally posted by AidasCams
let me to remind you, that even BK and ZK lenses already had date prefixes in their serial numbers indeed (both for Contax or Fed-Zorki cameras )... and the Zorki "Rigid white" and "Rigid black" lenses were the first ones to have prefix "50" in their serial, so we should start from 1950 indeed ...
Okay, but I own only one SK lens from 1948 at the moment, with some zeros at the beginning of the s/n ... ;-)
Best wishes - Guido
Guido,
below you will find some serials of BK and ZK I have found in my archives. I hope this will assist you somehow:
ZK 2/50mm:
#000378 (Kiev), #003340 (Kiev), #003365 (Zorki), #4902175 (Zorki), #4902889 (Kiev), #4904348 (Kiev), #4904638 (Kiev), #500519 (Kiev), #500668 (Kiev), #5000272 (Kiev), #5000350 (Zorki), #5001125 (Kiev), #5002295 (Kiev), #5003665 (Kiev), #5004826 (Zorki).
ZK 1.5/50mm
#491148 (Zorki), #500358 (Zorki).
BK 2.8/35mm
#5000088, #5000097.
Industar-22 (from my personal collection)
#5002998 (Rigid White), #5018843, #5057392. |
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Guido Studer
Guido
Switzerland
362 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Mar 30 2008 : 6:25:15 PM
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Hello everyone
I'm still looking for *all* serial numbers of Zorki 3 and Zorki 3M. For the four digit s/n of the Zorki 3 it would be nice to have informations of the options named by Jacques M.:
- big or small viewfinder
- screw against the viewfinder or not
- screw under the rangefinder is in the middle or on the right
- four screws of the accessory clip are visible or not
- lock at the slow speed dial
- maybe other options like different speed dail or flash sync
A picture of the camera would help too.
At the moment I have only eight Zorki 3 with numbers <5000 on my list, maybe you can help me to find some more?
The larger numbers 54xxxx ... 56xxxxx for both models (3 and 3M) would be helpfull for me to find out more about the production of this models (I have about 40 of this numbers at the time, but it would be better to have more).
You can send me any information by mail or you write it here. As soon as I will have a better overview I will give you the informations here in the forum.
Thank you very much in advance.
Best wishes - Guido
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4247 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Mar 30 2008 : 7:59:25 PM
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Zorki 3 - 5434215
Zorki 3M - 6102177
See you all in a week.
Vlad |
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Juhani Halmeenmaki
cedricfan
Finland
1013 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Mar 30 2008 : 11:24:36 PM
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3S #5632260
3M #5545673
Smena rules |
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Jacques M.
France
2584 Posts |
Posted - Mar 31 2008 : 02:22:55 AM
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Zorki 3 # 5571252
Zorki 3M# 00707
Jacques. |
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Guido Studer
Guido
Switzerland
362 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Mar 31 2008 : 05:28:10 AM
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Thank you for your shared numbers.
@Vlad:
A Zorki 3M from 1961?
@Jacques:
I think you mixed up the 3 and the 3M. No problem for this.
Best wishes - Guido
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Jacques M.
France
2584 Posts |
Posted - Mar 31 2008 : 06:27:49 AM
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Jacques. |
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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
973 Posts
My Collection
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Guido Studer
Guido
Switzerland
362 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Mar 31 2008 : 09:39:06 AM
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Hello Aidas
Thank you very much for this interesting link. Yes, exactly such cameras/pictures I'm looking for.
Best wishes - Guido |
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Jacques M.
France
2584 Posts |
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Guido Studer
Guido
Switzerland
362 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Mar 31 2008 : 4:55:46 PM
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Hello Jacques
The picture belongs to your Zorki 3 #0707? What do you like to show us with this? Thank you for any comment!
Best wishes - Guido
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Jacques M.
France
2584 Posts |
Posted - Mar 31 2008 : 4:58:13 PM
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A picture of the cover (# 00707) without the four screws.
Now, the viewfinder without the left screw, if I can!
Jacques. |
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Jacques M.
France
2584 Posts |
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Guido Studer
Guido
Switzerland
362 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Mar 31 2008 : 5:15:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
A picture of the cover (# 00707) without the four screws.
Now, the viewfinder without the left screw, if I can!
Hello Jacques
Ah, okay, thank you for this donations. As soon as possible I will show pictures of other early Zorki 3 too. At the moment I'm working on an article of the Zorki 3 family, but it will be in german once again ... sorry for that. And I will have some other surprizes on my homepage very soon. But it's an other story ...
By the way, what lens you have on your Zorki 3? A Industar 22 50mm/3.5 maybe? I found that much of the early Zorki 3 have Jupiter 8 or even SK (ZK) 50mm/2, the "better" lenses. For me it seems that the Zorki 3 was some sort of luxury model delivered with the best lenses existing in this times.
Many thanks to you, once again, Jacques.
Best wishes - Guido
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Jacques M.
France
2584 Posts |
Posted - Mar 31 2008 : 5:22:08 PM
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Hi Guido,
The lens is a rigid black Industar 22 dating from 1952.
Of course, I don't know if it's the original one. Maybe...
Amitiés. Jacques. |
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Guido Studer
Guido
Switzerland
362 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Mar 31 2008 : 5:30:52 PM
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Hello Jacques
The date seems to fit very well ... I think that only with the documents we can say if a lens is original or not.
Best wishes - Guido
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okynek
759 Posts |
Posted - Mar 31 2008 : 11:24:54 PM
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Zorki 3 s/n 5432649, 5419927, 547715, 5451398 Last I sold resently on ebay to jentelmen in Germany. Could be you?  . |
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okynek
759 Posts |
Posted - Mar 31 2008 : 11:27:00 PM
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| BTW may be somebody interesting swap Zorki 3 on Zorki 3M? |
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Guido Studer
Guido
Switzerland
362 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Apr 01 2008 : 05:13:59 AM
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Hello Okynek
Thank you for the serial numbers.
Best wishes - Guido |
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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
973 Posts
My Collection
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Guido Studer
Guido
Switzerland
362 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Apr 01 2008 : 08:05:25 AM
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Hello Aidas
Thank you for the link. Yes, this Zorki 3 is already on my list.
Best wishes - Guido |
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BERRY alain
mermoz37
France
814 Posts |
Posted - Apr 05 2008 : 1:31:55 PM
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hi Guido ,
my 3 zorki 3 are :
5418562
5434349
and 04945 (engraved on theright side of ocular. ("pré-série" whith lock on slow speeds and big window finder)
but i notice : 5434349 have a dot in place of arrow (like a 3M) to set speeds drum ( on the left side of accessories shoe)
my 3M is 5568379.
54185662 is in Princelle's second edition page 273 (repro device) |
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Guido Studer
Guido
Switzerland
362 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Apr 06 2008 : 11:01:06 PM
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Dear friends
Thank you very much for all the serial numbers you spend. At the moment I have 46 numbers of Zorki 3 and 18 of Zorki 3M. Ten of the Zorki 3 s/n are short ones where I have more or less extra informations.
So here is my first attempt to bring a little more light in:
- screw near the viewfinder or not
last # without screw: 00707, first # with screw: 01447
- big or small viewfinder
last # with big: 02288, first # with small: 03110, exeption: 04945 from Alain
- screw under the rangefinder is in the middle or on the right
last # middle: 04142, first # right: 04746
- four screws of the accessory clip are visible or not
last # without screws: 04142, first # with screws: 04746
- lock at the slow speed dial
last # with lock: 04974, first # without lock: 54xxxx
- diameter of the speed dail
15mm from the beginning to 1954, 13.5mm from 1955 on (not very shure!) and all Zorki 3M I have seen
- speed dail mark
arrow from the beginning to 1954, dot from 1954 on, mixed in 1954 (for the Zorki 3M also mixed in 1955)
The following short numbered Zorki 3 I have looked closer: 00316, 00539, 00707, 01447, 02288, 03110, 04142, 04746, (04945), 04974, and some later Zorki 3 from 1954 and 1955.
The smallest number in 1954 I found for the Zorki 3 is 547413, the biggest was 54160012, but it's probably an error in my list, so we better take the next lower, 5451398.
The lowest number in 1955 I found was 5502575, the highest 5548522, for the Zorki 3.
The Zorki 3M s/n goes from 5503332 to 5571252 in 1955, and one number I found for 1956: 5601406.
I will continue to collect all numbers and expand my list. If I would have further conclusions I will inform you.
Best wishes - Guido
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Jacques M.
France
2584 Posts |
Posted - Apr 07 2008 : 02:43:52 AM
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Fine, Guido!
It will help everybody.
Thanks!
Jacques. |
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zhang
Kievuser
310 Posts |
Posted - Apr 07 2008 : 7:38:47 PM
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Hello Guido,
Very interesting research on S/Ns.
Here are mine:
Zorki-3 s/n 5517201
Zorki-3M s/n 5544491
Zorki 3C s/n 5644913,5634521.
Cheers
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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
973 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - May 12 2008 : 07:47:56 AM
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Guido,
Great job done, thanks! I would like to ask your permission for using your data in my further investigation, ok?
Some additional information for Zorki-3 Fans:
- one of my Zorki-3 (1955) comes with serial number embossed, not engraved ...
- I have bought camera #547104 on eBay recently. It still comes with speed dial lock (see actual picture below)
Regards,
Aidas
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/24gf0.jpg
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BERRY alain
mermoz37
France
814 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2008 : 08:37:14 AM
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hi Guido,
mine are :
- 04945 (tripod screw - lock on slow speed dial- arrow mark in front speeds dial)
- 5434349 (kiev style table foot - dot mark in front speed dial)
- 2418562 (kiev style table foot - arrow mark in front speed dial) |
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Guido Studer
Guido
Switzerland
362 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - May 12 2008 : 11:38:42 AM
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Hello Aidas
For shure you can use my informations, no problems. I'm working on an article on the Zenit 3 family too, a draft you can find here:
http://www.g-st.ch/privat/kameras/zorki3.html
Sorry, it's in german again ...
The #547104 I have found on eBay too and it's already in this draft because of the lock on the slow speed dail. An interesting camera, because I think this detail was soon changed after this s/n.
Best wishes - Guido
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Guido Studer
Guido
Switzerland
362 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - May 12 2008 : 11:45:26 AM
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Hello Alain
Thank you for your numbers again. There are in my database since some weeks. ;-)
It's wonderful how much help I received from you all, thank you very much!
Best wishes - Guido
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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
973 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - May 12 2008 : 12:26:30 PM
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Hello Guido,
Your source is amazing, many thanks! I will offer you all my material about Zorki-3 camera to make your article more complete and unique. My very new find - Zorki-3 #00288, which looks different from your #00316 camera ...
Best Regards,
Aidas |
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Guido Studer
Guido
Switzerland
362 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - May 12 2008 : 12:50:57 PM
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Hello Aidas
I'm *very* interested in this #00288. Do you have any pictures of this camera?
Thank you very much in advance.
Best wishes - Guido
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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
973 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - May 12 2008 : 1:00:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Guido Studer
Hello Aidas
I'm *very* interested in this #00288. Do you have any pictures of this camera?
Thank you very much in advance.
Best wishes - Guido
Guido,
Yes, I do possess few authentic pictures of #00288 ... Camera collector from Russia Anatoliy Zilbert was very kind to sent some photos of his ultra early camera today. Sorry to say, but you will need to review your article for sure ... 
Ok, I will send these pictures to you tomorrow, ok?
Best Regards,
Aidas |
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Guido Studer
Guido
Switzerland
362 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - May 12 2008 : 1:09:22 PM
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Hello Aidas
It's better to review the article before it's finaly published, it's still a draft. Thank you very much for your great help!
Best wishes - Guido
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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
973 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - May 13 2008 : 01:53:36 AM
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Hello Guido,
I have made a mistake - the earliest Zorki-3 I know comes with serial number #000228 and not as mentioned above, sorry ...
All the pictures I possess are already sent to your e-mail recently.
Best Regards,
Aidas |
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Steve
Bull Halsey
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - May 14 2008 : 1:53:51 PM
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Just thought I'd dig my camera out and give you the number.
Mine reads # 03110.
Steve |
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Guido Studer
Guido
Switzerland
362 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - May 14 2008 : 2:16:46 PM
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Hello Steve
Thank you for the number of your Zorki 3. It's sold by an Austrian seller if I remember correctly. The other one in this shop has the number 04746 by the way. ;-)
Best wishes - Guido
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Topic |
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Zorki 3 preseries
