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Kiev 3 / III

Created by AidasCams on 8/22/2007 5:29:40 AM
Last Edited by jed on 12/5/2017 1:36:32 PM  
Located in
Still Cameras > Kiev / Arsenal - Kiev Rangefinder

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Brian Tompkins
BrianT

United Kingdom
36 Posts
Posted - Sep 01 2007 :  11:26:25 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I find this very interesting. I have seen various dates for the 111 production, the earliest being 1949. However here I see 1948. This interests me as I have a 111 Serial No A 48096. I have read somewhere that the A denotes a non production camera, not sure what that means.
It came fitted with a Zeiss Sonnar F1.5. Most noticeable thing is the general quality of finish.

Hope this is of interest.If anyone would like further info just shout.

Brian.

Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1008 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Sep 01 2007 :  1:07:56 PM  Show Profile  Visit nightphoto's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Brian,

I think your camera is very early and rare. I don't think the "A" in the serial number denotes a non-production camera as the "A" is fairly common on later year serial numbers.

The finish is probably better because the parts are original Contax parts. Probably if you were to take the front plate off of your 1948 Kiev III you would find that on the back you can see the original "Contax" logo (in reverse). I have a KIEV III with no serial number and with the early hand-engraved "KIEV" logo that is shown on the top photo of a KIEV II, on page 207 of Princelles. When I took the front plate off this camera it had the reversed Contax logo visible. I believe that my camera is from 1947 or early 1948 and is probably one of the cameras made before production really began (and maybe even before all of the Contax factory equipment, workers and parts were moved from Germany to Kiev). I have no doubts as to the originality of my camera. It has a 1948 ZK lens No. 0147.

I will post some photos of it soon. Your camera is also one of the earliest made.

Regards, Bill

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Brian Tompkins
BrianT
United Kingdom
36 Posts
Posted - Sep 02 2007 :  06:23:33 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Bill, all very interesting.

You will note in another thread I have corrected a mistake. I have been sorting out the cameras and spring cleaning and had got in a muddle. The Zeiss lens belongs to a 1950 111 No 5089. The 1948 in fact has a ZK F1.5 50mm No 480106 and it is the rigid version.

I have posted a link to a snap of the camera look forward to seeing yours.

Sorry about the confusion.

Regards,

brian

Edited by - BrianT on Sep 02 2007 06:24:47 AM
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Brian Tompkins
BrianT
United Kingdom
36 Posts
Posted - Sep 02 2007 :  10:58:57 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bill here's a link to the 1950 111.

http://usera.imagecave.com/Annie135/DSC00949902x710.jpg

Brian

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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1008 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Sep 02 2007 :  6:37:56 PM  Show Profile  Visit nightphoto's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hi Brian and everyone,

I'm going to post this on the General Discussion Forum too.

I also made a mistake about the serial number on the ZK lens on my early KIEV III. I didn't see the last number because the white paint was completely gone, so instead of No. 0147, it is actually No. 01474. So this lens has a later number than your 1948 lens. This lens is also a rigid lens and I can't be sure that it is original to the camera, but it may be.

Here is a link to some photos of the KIEV III that I have that I believe is from 1947 or 1948.

http://www.nightphoto.com/1947.html

As you can see, when the front plate is removed, the backside shows the original CONTAX stamped logo. This is a feature of some of the early KIEV production when they were still using front plates and other parts that were produced in Germany.

Also there is a small impressed number on the lower right corner of the lens mount plate. I believe this also denotes a CONTAX part. In addition, this camera has many, if not all parts that are of CONTAX production.

Here is a link to a great article about these transitional cameras (which I believe your 1948 KIEV III is, also):

http://www.zeisshistorica.org/sample.html

I have also been told that if you take the meter housing apart, the date that it was assembled is written in pencil on one of the interior parts. Since my camera doesn't have a serial number, this would be interesting to do, but since I have not taken a meter housing apart yet, it will have to wait until I a have done it on a different KIEV III.

Let me know if you have any questions about this camera or want some more photos.

Regards, Bill

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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
969 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Sep 03 2007 :  09:20:14 AM  Show Profile  Visit AidasCams's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hello Bill and welcome to the site Brian!

I found your discussion very interesting indeed and thanks for the new exponates. Both cameras are worth to discuss more about it. Brian's camera was made in 1950 with "A" character in serial number. Although I investigated a lot of early Kiev's III, none of them had "A" character in numbering. I would second Bill, that "A" doesn't denotes a non-production camera while "A" and Cyrillic "B" were quite common since 1951. To be more precise, you can find "B" only among the Kiev III cameras released in 1954. So, the fact of existance of 1948 Kiev III with "A" is already some kind of sensation ...

If I remember correctly, I have already seen Bill's camera few years ago. My initial verdict was it could be the re-assembled from spare Kiev II/Kiev III parts, 'cos not proven yet the existance of Kiev III with genuine tilted engravings. Now I'm not so categorical, but still doubt, that Bill's camera could be assembled from both Kiev II & Kiev III as well as genuine Contax parts (some time ago I was proposed to buy the genuine Kiev II frontplate with ultra rare engravings and reversed Contax in the opposite site). Anyway Bill's camera is a big piece of value in both historical and financial reasons.

Regards,

Aidas
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1008 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Sep 03 2007 :  10:43:02 AM  Show Profile  Visit nightphoto's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hello Aidas,

Yes, I bought this camera several years ago on Ebay, so you may have seen it then. I was also offered an early KIEV plate like this with the CONTAX on the back, but from the wear patterns (brass showing through) I think it was a different plate from the one on this camera.

Although I was also suspicious about this camera when I first saw it, now I think it is authentic. The reasons are many and have to do with the parts that are used, the way they look (with the green oxidation still in place, screws untouched, etc.) and also with the existence of other early KIEV III cameras, like the one Bryan has. The "tilted" KIEV logo would have, no doubt, been used on any KIEV III made by Arsenal Zavod during 1947 - 1948, as can be seen by the use of this "tilted" logo on the 1947 and some 1948 KIEV II cameras.

So, if Arsenal already had the parts for the KIEV III during those years, I would think they might put a few together and give them the KIEV logo. So even though none have been discovered yet (except maybe this one, if it is authentic) that will not mean that they were not made.

But, Aidas, you are right. This camera has not been authenticated 100% by examination (taking it apart ... looking for clues) or by the existence of another example. I have been told that it might be good to have the camera examined by Peter Henning who is an expert in the Contax to Kiev history. Sometimes time and the details solve the story!

Regards, Bill

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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1008 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Sep 03 2007 :  10:56:07 AM  Show Profile  Visit nightphoto's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Aidas,

I forgot to ask you ... Have you ever heard that a date is written in pencil on the interior parts of a KIEV III lightmeter?

Regards, Bill

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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
969 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Sep 04 2007 :  11:15:40 AM  Show Profile  Visit AidasCams's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hello Bill,

It's easy to prove camera's authentity by comparing serial number on the camera with interior serial number on the shutter. Unfortunately it doesn't fit your case, because you have no serial number engraved on your camera. The interior serial number reffers to camera serial number, but without date prefix. I'm not sure I explained it properly, simple example will clarify it for sure: if you have camera with s/n #48252, the interior number reffers to number #252. Any way you would be interested to know at least the serial number of your camera, I guess...

Regards,

Aidas
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1008 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Sep 04 2007 :  6:28:07 PM  Show Profile  Visit nightphoto's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hello Aidas,

I have never seen a number on the shutter of a KIEV. I have seen the number on the shutterbox of the CONTAX cameras. Which part of the KIEV shutter is the serial number on? Is it visible when you just take the back off or do you have to disassemble the camera?

In the case of this camera there are no numbers anywhere, inside or outside, at least that I can see with out disassembly.

Regards, Bill

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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
969 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Sep 05 2007 :  08:19:53 AM  Show Profile  Visit AidasCams's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hello Bill,

It's no easy for me to explain which part of the shutter has the snicked serial number on early Kiev's - both Kiev II and Kiev III. I just scaned the picture from I.Maizenberg's book and placed my red marks on it.

Oh, ... sorry I still have no imagination how to place the picture inside the message, like you do. So I placed it as the second photo in Kiev III description, ok?

Regards,

Aidas


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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1008 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Sep 05 2007 :  10:24:17 AM  Show Profile  Visit nightphoto's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hi Aidas,

Thanks for that illustration. I have the Maizenberg book, so when I get some time I will take the camera apart and see if there is a number on the top of the shutter cage.

Thanks for showing me where it would be. When I look for it I will report back with what I find out.

Regards, Bill

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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
969 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Sep 07 2007 :  05:11:24 AM  Show Profile  Visit AidasCams's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hi Bill,

It would be great to know what you'll find inside your camera indeed.


Regards,

Aidas
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
3976 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Sep 07 2007 :  10:05:20 AM  Show Profile  Visit Vlad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Speaking of things to find inside cameras, on a little disgusting note - 3 months ago I've found a nice fat, possibly Russian cockroach inside a top plate covered space when I disassembled a Zenit E. :) Heck if I know how it got there, because there were no holes to fit him in.. maybe he grew up there? :) Now, that's a story of survival.. hehehehe...


Vlad.
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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
969 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Sep 25 2007 :  06:33:41 AM  Show Profile  Visit AidasCams's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hi Bill,

I have had a very exciting discussion with well-known Contax/Kiev expert Peter Hennig (Stockholm, Sweden)recently. The subject of our discussion - your early Kiev III with script ("tilted") logo. I have sent your photos of this interesting camera to Peter and he commented it briefly. I guess, you would be interested to contact Mr. Hennig directly, as he promised to assist you in further camera investigation.

Best Regards,

Aidas
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1008 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Sep 25 2007 :  11:29:53 AM  Show Profile  Visit nightphoto's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hi Aidas,

Well that is exciting news. What did he think about the camera, if you can tell me? And how can I get in touch with him?

Regards, Bill

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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
969 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Sep 25 2007 :  12:20:43 PM  Show Profile  Visit AidasCams's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hi Bill,

Tomorrow I will send you Peter Hennig' contacts by e-mail. Beeing a proud owner of this vintage camera you should decide to share the information with other forum members, or not.

Best Regards,

Aidas
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1008 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Sep 25 2007 :  12:36:26 PM  Show Profile  Visit nightphoto's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Thanks Aidas,

I will contact Mr. Henning and when I find out the story of the camera, I will of course share with the forum.



Regards, Bill

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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
969 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Sep 25 2007 :  1:29:44 PM  Show Profile  Visit AidasCams's Homepage  Reply with Quote
That's good idea, Bill. I'd like to know more about this interesting camera after the close examination.

Best Regards,

Aidas
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