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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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 Posted - Sep 02 2007 : 6:41:35 PM
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Hi Brian and everyone,
I also made a mistake about the serial number on the ZK lens on my early KIEV III. I didn't see the last number because the white paint was completely gone, so instead of No. 0147, it is actually No. 01474. So this lens has a later number than your 1948 lens. This lens is also a rigid lens and I can't be sure that it is original to the camera, but it may be.
Here is a link to some photos of the KIEV III that I have that I believe is from 1947 or 1948.
http://www.nightphoto.com/1947.html
As you can see, when the front plate is removed, the backside shows the original CONTAX stamped logo. This is a feature of some of the early KIEV production when they were still using front plates and other parts that were produced in Germany.
Also there is a small impressed number on the lower right corner of the lens mount plate. I believe this also denotes a CONTAX part. In addition, this camera has many, if not all parts that are of CONTAX production.
Here is a link to a great article about these transitional cameras (which I believe your 1948 KIEV III is, also):
http://www.zeisshistorica.org/sample.html
I have also been told that if you take the meter housing apart, the date that it was assembled is written in pencil on one of the interior parts. Since my camera doesn't have a serial number, this would be interesting to do, but since I have not taken a meter housing apart yet, it will have to wait until I a have done it on a different KIEV III.
Let me know if you have any questions about this camera or want some more photos.
Regards, Bill
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Brian Tompkins
BrianT
United Kingdom
36 Posts |
Posted - Sep 03 2007 : 07:33:36 AM
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Thanks for the super pictures of the lll ( Sorry Vlad, but thanks for the welcome Something which might interest you. The lens on your lll, I have a similar lens, but with a much higher number 02249. But now here's what might make it interesting....it came mounted on my Kiev ll, so?
http://usera.imagecave.com/Annie135/DSC00974cropped600x564.jpg
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Sep 03 2007 : 11:14:45 AM
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Hi Brian,
The lenses on so many of these cameras were often switched around a lot over the years, so in my experience, the only way to know a lens is original to a camera is if the passport from both the lens and camera are present, showing the serial numbers. Thanks for the photo of it.
Regards, Bill
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4247 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Sep 03 2007 : 11:32:03 AM
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Hey guys,
Marc James Small the author of non-Letiz LTM Lenses book had sent me an email regarding this thread, for temporary technical difficulties he was unable to post it himself, I'm doing it for him:
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Several notes on the Kiev II and III.
First, these cameras are always mentioned in the factory literature and the like only by Roman Numerals. That is, they are II or III and not 2 or 3.
Second, no one knows the significance of the A in the body serial number of the Kiev III cameras. I vaguely recall that there are some B series cameras known but that these seem to be later production but, again, I am not certain of this. I remember discussing this with Yuri Boguslavsky some years ago but believe that we never reached a firm conclusion.
Third, Yuri told me that the 1.5/5cm ZK and 1.5/50 Jupiter-3 in Kiev RF bayonet mount are more common in the "bweela SSSR" than in export markets. While KMZ and Zagorsk hawked LTM Jupiter-3"s widely in the West, these lenses in Kiev RF BM tended to stay in the lands of Proletarian Delight. I do own a Kiev RF BM Jupiter-3 but it was like pulling hens' teeth to get one -- it wasn't that expensive but it was hard to find. The poster is correct to note that the ZK version of this lens is rare.
It will be this winter before I get the rest of my bookshelves up and can get the bulk of my Soviet/Post-Soviet cameras out of their boxes. We do make haste slowly!
I am copying this message to Charlie Barringer, one of the most thorough of researchers on the early Kiev RF camera line.
Best wishes
Marc |
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4247 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Sep 03 2007 : 11:34:26 AM
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Brian,
Actually this Aidas's Kiev 3 in the catalog. :)
Vlad. |
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Brian Tompkins
BrianT
United Kingdom
36 Posts |
Posted - Sep 03 2007 : 3:13:22 PM
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Just found Aida's page, useful thanks Vlad.
Your right Bill but one can dream. I reckon though if you have a camera and lens with matching numbers there is a chance that they might be a pair. But who knows/ Funnily enough I think Kievs are still at a price that they can be regarded as fun....but they do seem to be getting a bit scarce.
Re lenses I would like to know when the 50mm Jupiter was introduced, my oldest is 1951. I do have another that is inscribed in standard script 'Jupiter' not Cyrillic and numbered 018265. Any ideas, it came on a very odd camera, a llA(?) , dated 1960 with no rangefinder, no self timer, no flash synch and extremely worn outer bayonet mounts. Funny, weird. But it's fun.
Here is the rigid ZK 50mm 1948, Nr 480106, but F1.5, only one I've seen, but remember until I discovered this and the R/F forum I collected in a vacuum
http://usera.imagecave.com/Annie135/DSC00970cropped568x600.jpg
Cheers,
Brian. |
Edited by - BrianT on Sep 03 2007 3:37:01 PM |
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Brian Tompkins
BrianT
United Kingdom
36 Posts |
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4247 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Sep 04 2007 : 10:58:09 AM
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Wow, nice! You got that one too! :) I would argue about the smaller case though, it looks like upper case to me, just smaller font. Of course it also depends on font used.. but it does seem like smaller upper case to me.. reading and writing Russian all my life kind of gives me this intuitive feeling, but I may be wrong.
Vlad. |
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Brian Tompkins
BrianT
United Kingdom
36 Posts |
Posted - Sep 04 2007 : 11:15:34 AM
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My wife still reckons it's a 6. Vlad, have you ever heard of a Kiev l?
Brian |
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4247 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Sep 04 2007 : 11:24:41 AM
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As far as I know there isn't such a thing since they started making first batch which were Kiev IIs back in Jenna, Germany which was I guess a Contax II copy thus the II suffix.
I would like to hear about it though if you know something we don't. 
Vlad |
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Brian Tompkins
BrianT
United Kingdom
36 Posts |
Posted - Sep 04 2007 : 12:35:43 PM
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Re the Kiev l Vlad, it will have to wait until tomorrow, it will mean rummaging in the loft. Anyway it's probably a joke.
As for the 'A' inscription. I don't know if it will add any information or help but. I have the following Keiv llls for the years. 1948,50,51,52,53,54 with the 'A' prefix. So whatever the reason it was done for a considerable period. The letter does vary slightly in form.I haven't got an 'A' inscription for a ll only the llls.
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Brian Tompkins
BrianT
United Kingdom
36 Posts |
Posted - Sep 05 2007 : 03:46:44 AM
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The Kiev l? Leica made simplified models of many of their cameras, so why not Kiev? I found the camera illustrated on some web site, wish I could remember but I can't. Anyway the expanation was that a few, a very few Kiev llAs were commissioned by the GOI ( it think that was the name) technical research estalishment to use fitted to fixed focus optical instruments. The cameras were made without the rangefinder, self timer or flash synch. The year of production was 1960. That's all I know, perhaps it's another load of dosh, nevertheless interesting and why not?
http://usera.imagecave.com/Annie135/kiev_1.jpg
Now, when I can get up into the loft no telling what I might find. :) Probably Ukrainian sense of humour but, what the heck?
Brian. |
Edited by - BrianT on Sep 05 2007 03:52:17 AM |
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4247 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Sep 05 2007 : 09:27:29 AM
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Brian,
That's a Kiev IIa in the picture isn't it?
Vlad |
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Brian Tompkins
BrianT
United Kingdom
36 Posts |
Posted - Sep 05 2007 : 10:07:15 AM
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Yes it is Vlad, or is it?. It hasn't got a self timer or a flash sync socket, nor although it's not obvious a rangefinder.
Nor has mine, shown under. I bought this from a Moscow dealer who handles very few cameras, he described it as broken with a BMN of $10. Normally I wouldn't have been interested but I was intrigued, mainly with the lens.
It's the only Jupiter I have that is not printed in Cyrillic script. Also the number is interesting Nr 08265. I haven't seen either before but remember I am very new to this Kiev collecting.
http://usera.imagecave.com/Annie135/DSC00985874x564.jpg
As an aside, this camera has the smoothest shutter wind on and expose that I have come across, it's as good as my 111g. |
Edited by - BrianT on Sep 05 2007 10:11:17 AM |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Sep 05 2007 : 10:44:17 AM
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Hi Brian and Vlad,
I have one of these cameras too and I know that there are at least three more besides mine and Brians. The one I have is identical to Brian's but did not come with a lens. The serial number is 6108566.
There is one pictured and talked about on the website of Claudio Asquini (from 1960):
http://www.geocities.com/asquinet/
I have never heard anything about GOI commissioning these, but it may be possible that this is the case since GOI is the organization that invents and tests new lenses and optics for the Soviet camera industry. It could be that these cameras were made for them for testing lenses designed with the KIEV mount.
Also, it seems that all of the examples of this camera have an unusually worn outside mount, so they were probably used with other than the normal lenses.
Claudio Asquini's article on them says that they are "Kiev II - like - Leica M-1" but I don't think that is the case. More likely they were made for some special purpose such as lens testing, for a microscope, or something in the medical or scientific field. The only thing different in them really is that the self-timer and rangefinder devices were left out.
Regards, Bill
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Brian Tompkins
BrianT
United Kingdom
36 Posts |
Posted - Sep 05 2007 : 12:16:25 PM
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Really interesting Bill, particularly re the lens mount wear, see link, is yours like that? I have often thought that if these cameras are indeed real then they were probably used on some sort of measuring device. The degree of wear is certainly out of the ordinary, it even appears on the face plate and the bayonets are just shiny brass. I mentioned about the smoothness of mine, what's your's like? I always suspected the way the self timer aperture had been 'crudely' plated over, however Cladio's is exactly the same.
http://usera.imagecave.com/Annie135/DSC00992copy.jpg
But I still would like to know something more about the lens which came with it.
I know I have mentioned this before but what a brilliant forum.
Cheers,
Brian |
Edited by - BrianT on Sep 05 2007 12:30:52 PM |
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4247 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Sep 05 2007 : 1:12:56 PM
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Brian, Bill,
these are incredible finds, I think we should add it to the catalog. Maybe under "modified and remanufactured"? Brian would you mind if we uses these photographs for the entry? Or maybe Bill will be kind enough to provide his patented "Detailed" shots as well? ;). Either way, I think it's worth adding to the catalog.
Thank you for the forum compliment Brian, it's the people that make it brilliant not the software or ideas.
Vlad. |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Sep 05 2007 : 2:13:06 PM
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Hi Brian and everyone,
I am sure that these Kievs are not "fakes" of any sort and were made for a specific purpose. Personally, I believe that they were modified by the Arsenal Zavod because the black leather (or faux leather ... not sure) covering on mine looks to be original and untouched since it was put on.
I think that some Soviet department or organization ordered them from Arsenal for a specific purpose and specified that there was no self-timer, flash synch contact, or rangefinder needed. Another use that occurs to me would be military, possibly for a submarine periscope or an army infantry periscope (as seen on the bottom of page 202 of Princelle 2nd Edition).These cameras appear to be Kiev 4a models and the early 1960s was a time of especially serious military build-up in the USSR
My example does not have the heavy wear and brassing on the lens mount that Bryan's has, but it does have more than the normal wear seen on most Kievs.
Bryan, what is the serial number of your camera?
Vlad, I will take some photos and add the camera to the catalog shortly.
Regards, Bill
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Edited by - nightphoto on Sep 05 2007 2:14:28 PM |
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4247 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Sep 05 2007 : 2:16:03 PM
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Sounds wonderful! Looking forward to seeing this entry! What would you call this camera? It's not Kiev I :).
Thanks,
Vlad. |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Sep 05 2007 : 2:41:44 PM
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No, not Kiev I. Probably something like "Kiev 4a / Special"
Regards, Bill
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Sep 05 2007 : 2:50:20 PM
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Brian,
Most examples of this Kiev / Special that I have seen came without a lens. I think maybe the lens on yours was added, but I dont 'know anything about the "Jupiter-8" being in Roman letters. It seems that I have seen this before somewhere and it is probably just a lens made for export, although the serial number is unusual.
But what type of lens is in this photo?
http://usera.imagecave.com/Annie135/kiev_1.jpg
Do you have two of these cameras?
Regards, Bill
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4247 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Sep 05 2007 : 2:50:37 PM
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| You mean IIa.... :) |
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Brian Tompkins
BrianT
United Kingdom
36 Posts |
Posted - Sep 05 2007 : 3:18:32 PM
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No only one Bill. As I said in the previous post I stumbled across it on the web. In fact it was part of an article on these cameras which is where I learned of the GOI Institute. The author reckoned these cameras were made in 1960/61 as they were required and he said approximately 15 were produced.....mind you don't know how he knew that. My example is Nr 6006343.
But I am now totally convinced that these cameras are not Ukrainian jokes. Who reckons collecting is a bore?
I quite agree re the leather covering, it is obviously the original. When I took the back off mine it had two brass cassettes in it, have to find them they are in a drawer somewhere.
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Edited by - BrianT on Sep 05 2007 3:19:49 PM |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Sep 05 2007 : 3:20:36 PM
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Vlad,
Looks like a Kiev 4a (type 1 ... produced 1958-1974 ... top entry, page 209 Princelle 2nd edition) Like the No-Name Kiev pictured, but with name and no self-timer, no rangefinder interior parts, and no synch plug. Kiev 4a type 1 still has the squared off front lens-plate, while 4a type two has an angled-down front lens-plate.
Regards, Bill
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Brian Tompkins
BrianT
United Kingdom
36 Posts |
Posted - Sep 05 2007 : 3:25:44 PM
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Just noticed Pegorari's example is Nr 6001918 so the article saying 1960/61 might be right.
Cheers,
Brian. |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Sep 05 2007 : 3:27:27 PM
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Bryan,
Please post a link if you ever find the article again as I would like to read it and see who wrote it. I will do the same if I find it. I have a special interest in the GOI (Vavilov State Optical Institute) as I have a small collection of prototype lenses made by them.
It sounds like a plausible explanation for these cameras, especially if the article was written by someone who worked at GOI - Arsenal or has first-hand knowledge.
Regards, Bill
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Sep 05 2007 : 3:34:47 PM
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Bryan, Vlad, and everyone,
It appears that the answer may be that it was a medical camera. Here is a link to a full kit with the camera we have been discussing.
Once you get the page that the link brings you to, look on the list on the left side and click "Kiev 4a Medical Kit".
http://www.dvdtechcameras.com/collect/arsenal/arsenal.htm
From the looks of this kit, it appears to be for a microscope or some type of medical scope, sort of like the Zenit Labo.
Regards, Bill
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Edited by - nightphoto on Sep 05 2007 3:35:46 PM |
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Brian Tompkins
BrianT
United Kingdom
36 Posts |
Posted - Sep 06 2007 : 04:18:33 AM
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Bill the more I think about it the more I am coming to the conclusion that I might have found the picture and info on Ebay.
Interesting re DVD. I have looked at that page dozens of times and never noticed the 'Medical;' thing. But very very interesting.
I have bought many cameras from DVD and had at one time quite a rapporte with Yuz Kuz Min. In fact is this a name, a nickname or what? Yuri Davidenko who was alwys referred to as " The President" seemed to be away a lot. My wife use to reckon he was off shaking the Baboushkas down for their dead husbands Kievs and Yuz Kus Min spent all his time selling them......to me:)
But I haven't bought any for some 3/4 years. cameras I want seem to be very rarely available, in fact the number of Kievs of any sort on Ebay seem to have dwinded. Have you bought them all?
Brian |
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
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Early KIEV III (also see "Another Addict"
