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 Topic  |
Niko80
Austria
174 Posts |
 Posted - Oct 29 2013 : 12:48:39 PM
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I noticed that David's two 'Summar' lenses are mounted to FED-S cameras.
FED'c' ___ 65494 ____ 23814
FED'd' __ 132610 ____ 28957
The first one lies above the regression line of expected camera-lens serial relations but the 2nd one fits just perfectly with another 'normal' camera-lens pair being extremely close.
If we assume that the 2nd camera and lens do truly belong together, what's the point of creating a fake 'Leica' lens but pairing it with a normal FED camera?
Any ideas?
It would be interesting to know if David's camera #132610 is a regular one or if it was converted to look 'Leica-like' too.
Regards,
Christian |
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David Tomlinson
RCCCUK
United Kingdom
208 Posts |
Posted - Oct 30 2013 : 03:11:31 AM
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Please see my entry on 'FED Summar. topic. Apologies to everyone.
David. |
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Niko80
Austria
174 Posts |
Posted - Oct 31 2013 : 1:02:36 PM
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No problem, David, at least one mystery we solved. |
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Igor
mirror
Belarus
6 Posts |
Posted - Feb 16 2020 : 2:24:01 PM
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Niko80
I know it is almost 7 years since you posted. But could you please reupload all pictures, it would be really great because the topic is really interesting. |
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2020 : 11:26:35 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by mirror
Niko80
I know it is almost 7 years since you posted. But could you please reupload all pictures, it would be really great because the topic is really interesting.
I support your request, Ihar. But I asked Christian to do so some years ago, and it sems it's impossible...
Really a pity.
Jacques. |
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Niko80
Austria
174 Posts |
Posted - Mar 07 2020 : 9:45:40 PM
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Cheers, Jacques!
'Impossible' is such a harsh word, let's call it 'difficult' instead!
First of all my apologies, I can't believe so many years passed since I last visited this forum.
I wanted to restore the graphs long ago but could not find them anymore and then outright forgot.
Been busy with a million other things in the past years and just today thought about checking on the state of FED1 research.
So while I cannot restore the old images - it makes no sense anyway as they are completely outdated - I can make new ones with the current state of wiki entries. As filehosts on the web don't live forever please save these graphs so you can repost them, maybe put them on the wiki. I made them for you, they are free for all.
Omitting all strange serials, we currently have 97 camera-lens pairs for the FED-S with FED-50/2 lens. 33x FED'c', 56x FED'd' and still only 8x FED'e'.
I cannot even remember the old graphs but I believe we see more or less the same here.
Camera-lens pairs concentrate along a vaguely logarithmic line in the center with outliers above for early cameras and more outliers below for middle and later ones. So far not very surprising.
Now let's divide the datapoints into models 'c' 'd' and 'e'.
Full dots are what I arbitrarily considered 'outliers'.
Immediately we see the 3 generations form distinct clusters.
FED'c' (red)
The earliest 'c' cameras make a nice cluster, a few late ones were fitted with lenses of very high s/n. Only two late cameras have unusually low serial lenses. Late 'c' cameras don't group well, there's quite an gap between #80.000 and #95.000
FED'd' (green)
Unsurprisingly the largest batch.
Interestingly from earliest to latest 'c' numbers we see camera-lens pairs clustering along a narrow perfectly strange line. There is no way this is a coincidence, I think we can safely assume these pairs were sold together. We see some lenses with unusually low s/n for early 'c' both high and low for the middle and as one would expect quite some lower s/n lenses for late models.
FED'e' (blue)
Unfortunately we only have eight camera-lens pairs for this enigmatic series, one additional lens has only 4 digits so I omitted it. And we have no lenses for the latest known 'e' models at all.
We have five pairs clustering along the same line as the FED'c', three of which are extremely close together. I would also see these as factory-matched but with so little samples it's hard to tell. Three more have far lower serial lenses, two of which are extremely low and more in the expected FED'c' range.
Now finally I again did some bad statistics and excluded all outlier-datapoints not clustering together and made a separate regression line for 'c', 'd' and 'e' cameras.
What we see immediately is that camera-lens pairs behave differently for 'c' and 'd' models.
The best fit through the 'c' cluster is much steeper but the cluster is fuzzier than the almost perfect straight line in 'd'.
What does this mean? It looks like when lens production started a lot of FED-S'c' were produced hence the gap between camera serials was smaller than in later 'd' models. I'll check this with normal FED1 against FED-S serial numbers. Also it looks like in the lens range #24.000 - 25.500 they had not enough cameras and these lenses ended up in later 'd' and even 'e' models?
Whatever happened, upon production of the FED'd' some different and fixed ratio between camera and lens serial was applied and strictly followed at least for the majority of cases, possibly until at least mid 'e'. The 'd' and 'e' regression lines are basically identical but the data for 'e' cameras is very poor. I did exclude the 'e' with the highest known lens serial number above 33500 as it was only listed in the lens wiki. It falls well within the 'd' line but would mess up the data for 'e' because we only have 5 samples.
Also note that pairs off the regression line never cluster together, they are more or less randomly distributed and far apart. In my opinion this indicates these pairs were not formed in a factory in an organized manner but probably much later as repair or upgrade with random available parts at different places. Maybe even cobbled together recently from parts for sale. We don't know what happened but it’s relatively safe to say it was not an intentional and organized matching of lens and camera serial numbers in the cases of these outliers.
Still keep in mind we have only 97 samples which, given an assumed production number of 13.000 FED-S and 50mm f/2 lenses is about 0,75%. Not great, not terrible. The clusters are highly significant in any case.
So, what do you think? |
Edited by - Niko80 on Mar 15 2020 7:14:46 PM |
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2020 : 05:48:04 AM
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For the moment, I only think it's really good to see you back!
And I am going to try and complete the listing...
Cheers! |
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Niko80
Austria
174 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2020 : 5:52:36 PM
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Thank you, Jacques!
I noticed the wiki entry for FED 50mm f/2 lens is a bit behind and missing a lot of entries seen for FED S. Also there are two conflicting entries:
FED 50/2 #21535 listed as lens only but with camera # 63146 in FED S wiki
FED 50/2 #26054 listed as lens only but with camera #123272 in FED S wiki
How to resolve this?
Next I looked into all available FED S cameras.
Currently (but lacking your latest additions) we have:
FED S'c': 56
FED S'd': 83
FED S'e': 24
Sum: 163
Assuming 12.000 cameras that's about 1.3%, a substantial sample size for statistics. Of every 100 cameras produced we have 13 in the wiki.
Nothing out of the ordinary here, no big gaps.
Let's look at the models in detail.
I plotted them diagonally get a better spread of datapoints but it's still just a line of camera serials. Hope that's not confusing. The units on x and y axis are the same. Note the scale is not the same between models c, d, e as they occupy different serial ranges. So the gaps seen here are NOT the same size!
FED S'c'
56 cameras from #55739 to #93609 = a range of 37870 serials
No idea if this has any significance but what we see here is a mix of small tightly grouped batches and gaps in the first half of the serial range. I'm inclined o say this is not a coincidence.
In the later serials we see no such batches, generally less cameras and quite a gap between #85000 and #90000 with a single camera in the middle - #86826 which has the unusually late lens #27821.
The largest gap is 3037 serials.
There is also some gap between the last 'c' #93609 and the first 'd' #96152 over 2543 serials.
FED S'd'
83 cameras from #96152 to #173444 = a range of 77292 serials
There are also some tightly grouped batches separated by gaps but it's less clear.
The gaps are the largest seen in FED S with a hole between #148500 and #156300 with again a single camera in the middle and again it has an odd Sonnar lens. The largest gap is 4016 between #152345 and #156361 but there are several gaps of 3000-4000 serials throughout the range.
There is virtually no gap between 'd' and 'e', only 535 between the last 'd' #173444 and the first 'e' #173979.
FED S'e'
24 cameras from #173979 to #183892 = a range of only 9913 serials
Not much we can say with so few samples, there are 3 larger gaps but the biggest one is only 1752 between #177597 and #179349.
Next I'll look at those peculiar batches in detail and compare a range of 10000 serials of each model at the same scale. This should make it easier to see patterns. |
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Geoff O.
geoffox23
Australia
54 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2020 : 6:58:05 PM
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Hello Nico and Jacques
I have amended #123272 to remove the lens.
Lens #26054 was fitted but purchased separately.
Cheers
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Fred_L
France
220 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2020 : 06:34:27 AM
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Hi all!!
If I can help, here are my Fed S with lenses:
1c: 65494 with 23814 2/50mm
1c: 75914 with 23285 2/50mm
1d: 132162 with 29057 2/50mm
1d: 139695 with 30219 2/50mm
1d: 140716 with 24786 2/50mm
1d: 147763 with 29974 2/50mm
1d: 148486 with 30713 2/50mm
And 3 more 2/50mm not mounted on bodies
25160
30100
31894 (could be 37894....)
Fred |
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2020 : 06:42:28 AM
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Looking at your last graphs, these gaps could mean that the productions of S bodies and 2/50mm were not co-ordinated... About the 1d s/n 164433, an interesting detail concerning this camera. I bought it without lens. When I tried the wartime LTM Sonnar, I was astonished to see that the position of infinity was perfect. On checking the camera, I saw that the lensplate had been turned of 90° clockwise. Possibly Fed had no more available 2/50mm...
I have begun to complete the wiki about the S, the 1e, the Red Flag and the Fed Arsenal. All these cameras are related together. And for the moment, I am astonished by the number of "irregular" 1e and 1eS, with Fed B parts, or even with Fed Arsenal ones (!!), without lenses or with lenses other than the regular 2/50mm... Certainly, all the existing Fed 1e were not mounted at Kharkov, especially the last ones!
I stop there for the moment!
Amitiés. |
Edited by - Jacques M. on Mar 09 2020 09:47:09 AM |
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Igor
mirror
Belarus
6 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2020 : 07:20:23 AM
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Huge thanks Niko80 for reviving this thread.
I have added a my pair of FED 2/50 lens and my FED 1d camera (Lens #32726 and FED-S #172936) to related wikipages one week ago, so they are probably included in graphs and should fit perfectly in the line.
The shutterbox of my FED has "21/V" scratched on the side, that probably means it passed quality control on May 21 1941 according to this page
https://photolubitel.com/index.php?route=module/kbm/article&kbm_article_id=9
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2020 : 08:49:52 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by mirror
Huge thanks Niko80 for reviving this thread.
I have added a my pair of FED 2/50 lens and my FED 1d camera (Lens #32726 and FED-S #172936) to related wikipages one week ago, so they are probably included in graphs and should fit perfectly in the line.
The shutterbox of my FED has "21/V" scratched on the side, that probably means it passed quality control on May 21 1941 according to this page
https://photolubitel.com/index.php?route=module/kbm/article&kbm_article_id=9
You are completely right! |
Edited by - Jacques M. on Mar 09 2020 09:44:57 AM |
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luigi gesi
schyter
Italy
81 Posts
My Collection
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2020 : 10:25:52 AM
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Hi Luigi,
In this thread, we normally discuss about the Fed S and their 2/50mm lenses.
About the "ordinary" NKVD, the lens is more or less in the range of the s/n of the body.
It seems the case for your 1c camera s/n 56450 with the s/n 54779 (if I read well) for the lens.
As for "14", it's a factory technical number.
Amitiés. Jacques. |
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Niko80
Austria
174 Posts |
Posted - Mar 11 2020 : 6:51:39 PM
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Thank you for your contributions, it seems my graphs are already outdated again!
It would be great help to know which of your camera/lens pairs were purchased separately and definitely are not original.
Fred:
Your lens is likely 31xxx, we do not have FED 50mm f/2 in the 37xxx range to my knowledge. Maybe you can post a photo?
Jacques, for now I have excluded the odd serial numbers because I do not know what to do with them. But they are certainly enigmatic.
About your Leica II fake #128698 with 2/5cm #28597/8: Do you think it was once a genuine FED S? The serial numbers would be matching so I guess I should include this pair?
I found two more lens-camera pairs on ebay, both of which match very well:
FED S 'c' 65658 Lens 21547
FED S 'd' 129233 Lens 28599
I will update all graphs during the weekend, the last ones I posted contain some minor copying errors like switched digits in some cases but nothing dramatic. Overall things have not changed much from 2013 despite an enormous increase in samples. If anything, the model I proposed on page 1 was strengthened but still a lot of things leave me puzzeled. More conclusions and graphs next time.
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
Posted - Mar 12 2020 : 08:40:49 AM
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You are right about the pairs, Christian. I will add that in the wiki for my own ones. Of course, the fact that we had bought the camera and the lens together does not make a proof, but it's better than nothing.
About the fake Leica, I have just checked again. It's an original Fed S 1d; you can count the couple 128698/28597 as original. Anyway, impossible to share them, as the s/n 128698 is written too on the beauty ring!
I am still puzzled by the 2/50mm lenses beyond # 30000. Not really understandable, as they overlap the 6,3/100mm series (c. 30000 to 39999). Perhaps we will solve that mystery later...
Amitiés. Jacques. |
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
Posted - Mar 12 2020 : 10:11:47 AM
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I have added "lens original" where necessary, and corrected a mistake (original 32189 on my # 180971, and not 31110).
Hope you will manage! |
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Niko80
Austria
174 Posts |
Posted - Mar 15 2020 : 9:04:19 PM
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Good news, I managed to find all my old FED data including photos of my collection and the old graphs!
So I should be able to restore everything, might take a while though. Page 1 should be fine again, let me know if anything does not add up, I had to make a few changes.
The camera/lens pair graphs above are updated as well.
Now what strikes me most is that though the number of FED S camera/lens pairs has doubled since the first graph, virtually nothing changed. The model I proposed in 2013 is still perfectly valid.
As I had forgotten everything I did all calculations from zero and only noticed afterwards I got virtually the same results as back in 2013.
I'll show you:
Sorry for this cluttered graph, take your time and I hope you'll understand.
Basically we see a fundamental difference in the way lens serials were assigned to FED S 'c' cameras than to FED S 'd' and 'e' ones.
As I concluded in 2013 the ratio is 1:11 for 'd' models and this is highly certain. No matter how many cameras we add I doubt we'll end up anywhere else than between 1:10 and 1:12. Also the model correctly predicts the number of manufactured cameras and lenses.
The fundamental questions are:
1) How did they manage to achieve this?
I looked into the serial distribution of FED-S to find patterns of how cameras were picked from the range of FED1 cameras to become an 'S'. Though the distribution is most likely not completely random I have not come up with any clues. What I can rule out is that regularly larger batches were converted to FED S. We'd see a stair-like distribution which we don't - it seems completely linear on the resolution we have. However from the current data we cannot see what is going on in the range of dozens of cameras. Hundreds at best. And the model suggests roughly every 10th FED1 was a FED S.
What we can also rule out is independent production of cameras and 50mm f/2 lenses and then picking random cameras for FED S conversion. This does not work, and would lead to random blob-like distribution, not our almost but not completely perfect line of 'd' cam/lens pairs.
I normally work with environmental data and I have never seen a distribution like this. It certainly shows well-planned human work but also not some perfectly executed industrial process.
If I would not color them in the graphs you could not discern 'd' from 'e' at all.
Look at the 4 lenses perfectly on the regression line and a fifth only a bit above it.
How can we explain this if the factory was evacuated to Siberia? Impossible to retain exactly the same production ratio under such circumstances. Fact is - the latest known FED S'e' pair #181306 / 33408 (Fed plate mounted Sonnar), the rightmost blue dot, fits the regression line perfectly. I find it hard to believe that anything fundamentally would have changed in production up to this serial range. The 'outliers' are so far out and random seems strange they would intermittedly use these old lenses in the factory and then resumed their perfect cam:lens ratio shortly after. I do not think these lenses are original.
To me it seems like they planned beforehand which lens serial was to be assigned to a certain camera serial range (in the hundreds), but not to an individual camera. Meaning 50mm f/2 lens production followed FED1 production, not FED-S production.
Also we do not see lens batches at all. It appears lens output was strictly coupled to FED1 production. If camera serials rose by ten, lens serials rose by one. And this for the entire 'd' range and seemingly well into 'e' production without any disturbances. Another amazing detail.
In contrast something fundamentally different was going on during 'c' production. the pairing of cameras and lenses was far more fuzzy and roughly followed an 1:7,5 ratio. But maybe even less down to 1:6? It seems the beginning and end of FED S'c' productuion was chaotic. In order to arrive at around #54.000 for lens 20.000 initially more cameras had to be picked to become 'S' than later on. Either they alerady had lots of 50mm f/2 lenses when FED'c' production started or they could not keep up FED S procuction and had to settle for fewer ones? Also towards the end there appear to have been serious problems. We have few FED S cameras in the range 80.000 - 95.000 and they have odd lenses. Likewise the expected lenses in the range 24.000 - 25.750 we know of ended up with much later 'd' and even an 'e' camera.
Now regarding the curious number of 33.5xx 50mm f/2 lenses:
I always found it weird to plan the maximum number of components beforehand. Keep in mind that in contrast to all other items the 50mm f/2 was not an 'accessoir' to be bought separately but was sold with the FED S. So we can assume that if more cameras than planned were produced they also had to exceed the lens number.
However lens 30.000 falls in the mid 'd' range and we see nothing unusual there. Anyway I think there are way stranger things about the FED S than the 'excess' 3.500 lenses. |
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
Posted - Mar 16 2020 : 10:03:04 AM
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What a work!
So, a ratio of 1:11 for the S-d and e, and around 1:7 for the S-c. An important difference, in fact. All that with a regular distribution for the first ones, and a more hazardous pairing for the "c". For the beginning of the S-c series, there are of course the usual explanations: starting with new material, supplies, training of workers... But is it enough? For the end, I have noticed that some of the s/n 90/95000 had already the speedbox of the 1d after c. 11xxxx: made of magnetic metal rather brass (perhaps repair too?). Anyway, I don't see anything important in the history of Fed to explain the irregularities you have found. For what we know about their history: very little, in fact...
Probably I exaggerated a bit about the "mystery" of the lenses beyond # 30000... But the overlapping in the 2/50 and 6,3/100 numbers is surprising in itself: Fed will found other solutions (later) to avoid that problem. It's that fact that made me think that 10000 Fed S were originally planned.
Concerning the S-e, all seems right in the pairing bodies/lenses up to the 181306/33408: you have noticed it. But after, there is no rule between the bodies and lenses. In fact, the 33408 is the last number in the wiki. I suppose that a certain number of S-e did not find "their" 2/50mm and it could be why we find them without lens (I have just bought one), or with a 3,5/50mm. The extra 3500 2/50mm lenses would not have ben sufficient...
And about the last 500 or 1000 1e, very probably some of them, by their poor quality, were mounted elsewhere from parts to become Fed-Arsenals or Red Flags.
But all that is really another story. Thanks for your great job, Christian!
Amitiés. Jacques.
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Niko80
Austria
174 Posts |
Posted - Mar 16 2020 : 8:14:16 PM
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Interesting about the late 'c' models!
We should not forget that the serial is only on the top plate. Maybe they had still some 'c' plates left while already producing 'd' cameras? The last 'c' pair matches the 'd' distribution perfectly and has little gap, see the red circle on the left in the FED S'c' camera against lens distribution graph (all green, 2 pics above).
There definitely was not an abrupt change from 'c' to 'd', rather gradual with some possible gap towards late 'c'.
Concerning 'e' I think the main conclusion is that cameras up to #181.306 most likely were prduced at Kharkow under normal circumstances. You are right about the latest cameras having no or odd lenses, I agree they may be produced elsewhere. I would also propose that 50mm f/2 lenses were only produced and available at Kharkow hence cameras assembled after evacuation had none.
I wanted to see if we can extrapolate the end for FED S camera and 50mm f/2 lens production.
The highest known FED S serial is #183.892 (unknown lens), the highest known 50mm f/2 lens serial is 33.509 for camera #177.376. That's a bit above the line but not much. May as well be factory matched, I can't say with the current data.
Our regression model suggests a camera serial of #181.400 - #182.500 for lens 33.500.
All later cameras have odd lenses so they fall out of the prediction range of the model. This suggests little more than 33.500 lenses were produced but FED S'e' camera production - or assembly - continued up to at least 184.000. We can assume things went chaotic after a possible evacuation and the last cameras may never been sold and got lost in the turmoil of war but still - my current estimate is that lens production stopped shortly after 33.500 and camera production around #184.000 - at least higher serials never made it out of the factory.
We can be relatively sure there is some gap between FED'e' and Red Flag, otherwise the later would not have started exactly at 200.000.
Too bad so many lenses of late 'e' cameras are unknown, do you maybe have a way to contact those collectors for info?
Also I saw the latest FED S'e' is not listed as FED S in the FED1e wiki. Are we sure this is a FED S? |
Edited by - Niko80 on Mar 16 2020 8:21:14 PM |
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Igor
mirror
Belarus
6 Posts |
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
Posted - Mar 17 2020 : 09:11:25 AM
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Thanks, Ihar. Added in the wiki.
Christian: I have sent several PM to owners about 2/50 serial numbers.
Hope they will allow you to complete your work...
Just two ideas more. The changing 1c/1d was certainly gradual, as it was for the 1b where we can observe several modifications which overlap each other at the same time. But that changing during 15000 serial numbers is a bit long. I wonder if it was not a question of repairs too. Unless it corresponds to a shortage of brass and that the remaining stock was used without real order.
And about the "heirs" of the S, there was probably the Fed-Zorki too. Very roughly, 2000 to 3000 of them certainly have a Fed shutter box... |
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2020 : 04:42:49 AM
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I have just added some mentions (lens original/lens added) after the answers I had.
Two observations: the lens 27890 on my 76862 was added (and not original: my mistake). And visibly, the 147794 is an error of typing for the 146794, of which I know the owner. So the 147794 was cancelled.
Bon courage. Jacques. |
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Niko80
Austria
174 Posts |
Posted - Mar 19 2020 : 4:40:13 PM
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Great find, Ihar!
Another perfect match to the regression line, the lens for this camera is only 8 serials off from the prediction of the model!! I am now certain that at least within the range we know, 'e' followed the same production procedures as 'd'.
If you want to try:
FED S 'c':
camera = (lens - 12983) / 0,1337
lens = 12983 + (0,1337 * camera)
FED S 'd/e':
camera = (lens - 17067) / 0,0906
lens = 17067 + (0,0906 * camera)
Thank you, Jacques, every late 'e' lens would count.
I have already omitted #147794 in the latest graphs. It is good to see #76862/27890 is not an original pair too, it further strengthens my model.
I will do further graphs over the weekend.
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
Posted - Mar 21 2020 : 05:29:50 AM
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I have just received the 1e S s/n 182757, already in the wiki (without lens).
Interesting, as the RF patch is blue, like on Zorkis. It's the only one in my 1e series ("Berdsks" and Red Flags).
A late mounting or a repair... |
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
Posted - Mar 29 2020 : 11:21:36 AM
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Just a remark about my twins, the S s/n 67723 and the ordinary NKVD s/n 67724. I had forgotten to talk about them in this thread...
They are absolutely identical. All is the same, even the very light step for the three last ciphers which are not exactly on the same line as the two first ones.
Internally, the engraved date shows 23/VII for the NKVD, and 26/V? (certainly VII too) for the S. So, an interval of 3 days for the certification of the S (checking of the mechanism and adaptation of the lens). Everything seems square...
Amitiés. Jacques. |
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Igor
mirror
Belarus
6 Posts |
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bill barton
agfa100
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2022 : 7:53:46 PM
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| I only have a Fed 50mm f 2.0 lens serial # 29515 and directly across from the serial number is a two digit # either 98 or 96 |
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Topic |
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FED-S camera and lens s/n needed for statistics
