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Guido Studer
Guido
Switzerland
362 Posts
My Collection
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 Posted - Jul 28 2018 : 2:42:43 PM
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Hello Bill
Thank you very much for the picture of the passport for #3504. It's an important find and it supports my opinion that this low s/n on newer cameras are upgrades to better models. In the case of the #3504 from 1934 (FED-1a) the upgrade was for the accessories shoe in 1936 (FED-1b). The passport also shows the number of the new lens for the FED-1b because earlier FED-1a maybe had there own adjusted lenses as Leica had in the early days. The number of the lens could be from 1936 or 1937 as I estimate without great knowledge of this. So I think this was a new passport made for the upgraded FED-1b.
An other sign that this really could be an upgrade is the fact that some of the short numbers are upgraded to FED-S versions as I understand.
What do you think about my conclutions?
Best wishes - Guido
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jul 28 2018 : 4:11:16 PM
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Hi Guido,
Yes, it is a good explanation and makes sense. Especially because a number were upgraded to "S". An upgrade makes more sense than repair with warranty and also makes sense why so many earlier cameras were given an upgrade to a the new standards, most importantly, interchangeable lenses and the new accessories. Maybe the instructional plate was an option during upgrade (to make it more like a Leica?) but not often chosen as it has a limited purpose to someone who already knows how to use the camera, and so was rarely chosen and maybe only offered for a short time..
Regards, Bill
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2018 : 02:11:29 AM
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Thanks, Bill.
The official passport of the s/n 3504 is very interesting. Its date (20/08/1936) should lead towards a body s/n around 23000 (25000th Fed made in november 1936 -Princelle). Instead of that, we see a body in the 30/45000, by the engraving, the milling of the buttons, the vulcanite, the release button... And of course by the s/n of the lens (44236) which could denote a "real" s/n of 43504 for the body, if we look for a correlation.
There is an incoherence. The passport comes with a camera which will exist only in the future...
All that can be compared, for me, to the 1b s/n 42457, lens 47306, showed by DVD Technik and which has a passport too. http://www.dvdtechcameras.com/collect/fed/fed.htm
This passport reads march (?) 1937 (unsure about the month), which is coherent with what we know about the production of cameras in these years.
Jacques.
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Edited by - Jacques M. on Jul 29 2018 02:40:52 AM |
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2018 : 02:38:08 AM
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The s/n 4875 is very interesting too.
By the features, it belongs to a s/n 10000-20000. 14875 would be correct.
About upgrading, we had already discussed about this hypothesis in a previous thread (impossible to find it with the "search" function?). Leitz and Zeiss had already done that for their Leicas and Contaxes. A very interesting idea. But for the moment, I don't "feel" a general explanation which could fit all the cases.
Jacques. |
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2018 : 07:51:55 AM
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Me again. Sorry!
I have just checked the dates engraved inside the body, on the shutter box, by the worker who mounted the camera. I hoped that these dates could tell us something about the insertion of these odd cameras in the regular numbering.
In fact, there is nothing completely clear if we compare the "twins":
- (2)1126 : I (mark,not date).........- 21225 : 25 IV (1936)
- (6)2092 : 26 III....................- 59349 : 19 III (1938)
- (3)3631 : 14 I......................- 34270 : 29 XII (1936)
- (2)4580 : 17 III....................- 25617 : 27 VII scratched and replaced by 7 III (1936).
- (1)25726: nothing.
Just two remarks.
- The odd numbers seem a bit delayed (several weeks), compared to the "twin" of the regular production. The time to check cameras belonging to a special series? But we have only three comparisons: not enough to be sure of anything.
- There is nothing inside the s/n 25726, which is exceptional. My Fed Arsenal and one of my Fed NKAP only are in that case! These dates will disappear somewhere in 1950.
Jacques.
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Edited by - Jacques M. on Jul 29 2018 11:31:04 AM |
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Juhani Halmeenmaki
cedricfan
Finland
993 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jul 29 2018 : 09:08:43 AM
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Passport is no solid evidence. The text can be "washed" and rewritten.
This was done to several vehicle passports that were sold to west after USSR collapsed.
Exhaust & equipment regulations in west were more strict.
Non-privately owned vehicles became private and could be sold.
Even I had one with non authentic papers...
Best regards,
Juhani |
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4212 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jul 29 2018 : 10:52:25 AM
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Bill, thank you for posting your correspondence! I remember we did discuss this before on this forum. I have a contact in Kharkov I can try to see if he knows something as well about the second location.
Best regards,
Vlad |
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2018 : 11:28:11 AM
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I had not seen Bill's correspondence (other page). Many thanks!
Really interesting.
The two locations could explain the differences of dates I have found. But why mount these odd cameras elsewhere? Would it be a special location for special demands: repairs, upgrading, series for administration, etc.? |
Edited by - Jacques M. on Jul 29 2018 11:32:10 AM |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jul 29 2018 : 1:23:44 PM
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As far as I can tell from the e-mail correspondence with Igor, he did not have a reason for the separate additional location for FED. But, from my own research, it appears that this was around the time when FED was expanding rapidly and so would have needed more space for all types of manufacturing, servicing, assembly, and clerical work. So it stands to reason that if there was another location, that expansion may be the reason.
As far as an old passport being altered by being 'washed', it is very unlikely. I am an art dealer by profession and know quite a bit about methods that are used to alter paper and the printed and handwritten images on it. It would be difficult, if not impossible to wash (usually using a water and bleach solution) the type of cheap paper that was used on FED passports of this era. It is possible to do so on later, better quality paper such as that used on vehicle documents, which are printed on a higher grade of paper, especially after WWII. So in my opinion, not likely or impossible in this case. Also.on this porous, large-grain type of passport paper, washing would easily show and that does not appear to be the case on this one.
Regards, Bill
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4212 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jul 29 2018 : 8:34:25 PM
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Bill, et al,
I've talked to my contact in Kharkov who is familiar with FED factory and its location, basically Lesopark 27 and Sumskaya 135 or whatever number it was it's the same one building, Lesopark is just a larger area that spans 9km like a forest preserve complex surrounding the factory. So the address was apparently written either/or sometime in second half of 1930s.
Best regards,
Vlad |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jul 30 2018 : 10:23:48 AM
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Vlad,
Although I no longer have the photographs, Igor went and took photos of both locations, so I'm not sure that they are the same building. If I remember correctly, the smaller building was several blocks from the main FED factory.
I would think that as they expanded production, they must have expanded their space too?
Regards, Bill
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jul 30 2018 : 11:27:06 AM
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When you go to google street view for "Sumskaya 135 Kharkov" you can see what I believe is the old FED factory. Now it seems to be the "Kharkov Aviation Factory" or something similar.
Probably this may have been where the new FED building was and the old one was close, in Lesopark, but smaller and the original factory? Probably "Lesopark 27" may have been an area or group of buildings, rather than a particular building?
Remember this was 80 years ago so your friend in Kharkov may not be old enough to have seen these changes?
Regards, Bill
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4212 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jul 30 2018 : 11:28:03 AM
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Bill, that's interesting. I'm just conveying the word of a person who lives in that area... I don't know what to think now  .
Best regards,
Vlad
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jul 31 2018 : 11:44:00 AM
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Hi Vlad,
Me too. I have no idea and was just relaying what the guy Igor said and thought. But he did go out and take photos of a different (smaller red brick) building that he said was a FED building.
I don't know if any of these theories are correct. They all seem a little off. My best guess is that these cameras were numbered differently because they were used by an official agency, or as Guido said, for an update.
Sometimes it is better to wait until the answer becomes apparent.
Regards, Bill
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4212 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jul 31 2018 : 1:33:54 PM
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Bill, I absolutely agree, no point of guessing here, it's counterproductive and creates a lot of false facts.
Best regards,
Vlad |
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
Posted - Nov 12 2018 : 09:14:02 AM
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I had to dismount my s/n 25726 to see if there is something strange inside. At least, I have just done it. But I could not remove the cover as the VF/RF windows are too tightly screwed. It's certainly a long time since somebody had a look inside...
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/12112018_IMG_0671.JPG
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
Posted - Nov 12 2018 : 09:40:49 AM
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So, the mystery remains unsolved. This camera is really very well mounted, for me, better than the other Fed NKVD I have seen. But when was it made? Why? And what about the magnetic frame counter, the special release spring, the plaque inside the bottom, the absence of date inside and of course this odd serial number?
Amitiés. Jacques.
PS: Don't hesitate to ask for other photos, if you have ideas. |
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
Posted - Aug 12 2020 : 10:05:58 AM
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A new NKVD with odd s/n should soon arrive here.
Here is a photo of the seller:
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/1282020_sans-titre.png
A s/n of 67610 (1c) is impossible with the CCCP engraving (1d). At first sight, it should be an error of engraving with a "1" missing on the s/n. More photos when I receive it.
Amitiés. Jacques.
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
Posted - Aug 20 2020 : 11:13:31 AM
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Well, the s/n 67610 is here.
No doubt: it's a 1d with all its features. The shutter box (iron sheet) and the film plate (magnetic, with hole) denote a camera in the c. 110000/150000 range, if all is original. The s/n of the lens (113869) confirms that possibility.
That time, no possible "missing cipher" (167610 would be too far), so, no question to try and find a twin in that range: with such a serial number, it's impossible...
Very happy to get a mysterious camera more!
Amitiés. Jacques.
PS: date engraved inside: 16/XII. So, the shutter box was regularly controlled.
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
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Ulrich W.
uwittehh
Germany
765 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - May 22 2023 : 2:48:54 PM
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Jacques,
a very nice find, the FED with the green curtains. I think those cameras are rare. Btw, are other colors than green known? Some Leicas have red curtains as I know.
I took a look inside my 7102, on the right bottom of the shutter housing is "4/17 IV" scratched in.
Ulrich
http://fotos.cconin.de |
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
Posted - May 23 2023 : 02:59:39 AM
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Thanks for the date, Ulrich.
In fact, I have 2/2/IV or 2/R/IV on mine.
So, very probably both cameras were made in april (1935). Our two cameras are twins by all their features. And mine was certainly an exchange under warranty: the original 1a is only some months earlier.
But is it the case too for all the others? Probably not...
Amitiés. Jacques. |
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Ulrich W.
uwittehh
Germany
765 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - May 26 2023 : 5:18:43 PM
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Jacques,
I have inspected my 4232, unfortunatelly there are no numbers scratched in. But can you check if the part where the bottom locks in (near the two screws for the spring tension are) it screwed in or rivited? On mine this part is screwed. On my 5899 and the 7102 this part is rivited.
Ulrich
http://fotos.cconin.de |
Edited by - uwittehh on May 26 2023 5:22:42 PM |
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
Posted - May 27 2023 : 03:29:36 AM
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Yes, Ulrich.
On the early Fed 1a, the "locking bar" was screwed, like on the Leicas, then it was riveted. I have just checked my Fed 1a-s: this bar is riveted on the s/n 5431 and screwed on the 1453, 3132 and 4642. It would not be normal to have a 1b with a screw bar.
I think that the original 1a s/n 4557 (which certainly had a screwed bar) was defective and the whole camera was exchanged against an early 1b taken on the assembly line, on which the 1a number was engraved (the same was made by Leitz for the Leicas). That explains the riveted bar and the green curtains. The date scratched inside must be a 1b's, not 1a's.
But you know all that!
Amitiés. Jacques.
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Topic |
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Fed NKVD with odd serial numbers
