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Lenny
496 Posts |
 Posted - May 19 2016 : 3:07:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by nightphoto
Hello Alfa2,
In general I like your idea and was also thinking that it might be very helpful to have a link to this thread from the Wiki page. Also, I agree that the photos of my camera should not be on the WIKI page as my camera was obviously either a fake or had many non-original parts and so is not representative of the cameras we are discussing. But I think that photos of both models should be on the WIKI entry page, for reference, then with the link to this thread, a person can get a good idea of what's goining on. As well, the FED-Arsenal entry should be moved into the "Unidentified / Contested Authenticity" category.
However, if we go ahead and do this, how will we know that someone won't rewrite the entry, at will, to say the camera is for sure authentic, or for sure a fake, depending on their own opinion?
Regards, Bill
The bad thing is, users can see on the first page if an entry was edited, but they can't see what was edited.
For example, on fotoua, if a camera was added you can see the number of the collector in red for one day, besides that there is a number of the amount of cameras listed. Then you can put in days to see which cameras were added recently. Very easy to follow.
Here added text in the entry should be highlighted for 1 week so we all can see what has changed. Is that possible? |
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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
1871 Posts
My Collection
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levonsa
levonsa
Russia
248 Posts |
Posted - May 23 2016 : 05:32:13 AM
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Luiz!
Bravo!!! Thanks! |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 23 2016 : 08:07:18 AM
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| Who can translate it, I understand only half. |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - Jun 02 2016 : 6:11:22 PM
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Salut Jacques,
how was your vacation, good you are back.
How do you think about the photolubitel articles Luiz posted above? Especially about FED-Arsenal. The VTSVS should be discussed in another thread. |
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Zoom
596 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2016 : 09:50:21 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lenny
Salut Jacques,
How do you think about the photolubitel articles Luiz posted above? Especially about FED-Arsenal.
I'm not Jacques ;), but near to the same conclusions are here: http://www.zenitcamera.com/articles/cameras/zenit-prehistory.html
(I repeat the link, that somehow went unnoticed.)
In addition, the points that have remained unsolved, are explained.
The whole story is not fully clarified yet. But only some details are left. |
Edited by - Zoom on Jun 03 2016 11:50:35 AM |
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2016 : 2:45:59 PM
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I'm not Zoom...
First, all my thanks to Luiz! I just wonder (as a westie!) who is behind the author who has access to these ultra rare cameras... But other USSRphoto forumers are unknown...
These articles are exciting. I particularly like the proceeding of the author: collect information before any synthesis.
So, we have now some more Fed-Arsenal to examine, and one of them with the 1/1000th, as it seems. Some (many?) of them with a close relationship with the Fed 1e, by the "B" inside the cover.
We had guessed here that these cameras could have been made mainly from original Fed parts, and partly from Arsenal made ones. It's a confirmation. And that there were in fact two foreseen batches, if we follow the plate engravings (and the serial numbers).
We have now to wait for some new discoveries. No doubt they will happen, thanks to this thread! Anyway, it's absolutely not the moment to say which is, or not, genuine.
Something else: on the way "from Kharkov to Kharkhov", so, from 1941 to 1948, the real and certain history has always to be written...
Amitiés. Jacques. |
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2016 : 3:05:09 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by elnur
Hi guys! Help to identificate. Fake or not?
About this s/n 00020, it's evident that it was not made with 1d or 1e parts: the 3 screws under the rewind button and the central screw, half hidden under the lensplate, denote a 1b or early 1c body. The absence of hole for the slow speeds in the upper plate is a confirmation.
That said, we don't know which materials were available for these cameras. Certainly, the Arsenal guys used what they had. So, to declare this camera is a fake would be a bit short. For the moment, we just have to compile...
Jacques. |
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4212 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jun 03 2016 : 4:45:50 PM
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from the article that Luiz posted in part one I am confused about this camera, it may be a bit offtopic for this thread as it's more for Berdsk thread but this Berdsk shield/logo FED-B with serial # in 180xxx range.. it goes against everything established so far... it only proves that you can't expect consistency or logic in Soviet production
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/362016_ris_6all.jpg
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jun 03 2016 : 9:47:22 PM
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Hi Vlad,
Probably just a late FED-1e 'Berdsk'. The plate is probably just put on to personalize the camera (owners initials). The plaque may even have been cut from some other object with the monogram, such as a cigarette lighter or damaged piece of silver - vase, cigarette case, etc. Maybe was put in place to cover a hole by someone trying to add a slow speed dial, but unsuccessful. Probably not very relevant to the 'Berdsk' story or history. Can you read the monogram? "NIIS"?
Regards, Bill
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2016 : 11:54:34 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
we don't know which materials were available for these cameras. Certainly, the Arsenal guys used what they had. So, to declare this camera is a fake would be a bit short. For the moment, we just have to compile...
Thanks Jacques,
of course we can't be sure about the history of every single camera, but some things are very unlikely. Important is only how the Fed and Arsenal factories produced cameras.
Fed got an ordered plan to produce thousands of cameras every year. They didn't get an order to produce spare parts and they were not ordered to repair cameras. So keeping plates with 3 holes under the rewind knob makes less sense. To fulfill the plan and to use all produced parts they might have used up all 1c parts in the transition from 1c to 1d.
Arsenal might have had lots of 1e parts. They might have started production with these 1e parts. To produce #00022 so early with a different technic from 1c makes less sense when there were enough 1e parts available. And it seems Arsenal got an ordered plan too, to produce the first 100 cameras fast. This #00022 with 3 screws makes no sense and Arsenal didn't had mass production at that time. These FED-Arsenal were pretty much produced consecutive to their serial numbers.
In a workshop it's totally different, their job was to repair cameras and they likely used parts from other broken cameras. |
Edited by - Lenny on Jun 03 2016 11:58:15 PM |
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
Posted - Jun 04 2016 : 08:17:45 AM
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Hi Bill and Vlad!
Yes, it's probably just to put a late 1e. It seems that a number of these Fed-Arsenal were made from parts coming from that series. Anyway, I don't see anything special about that one, except, of course, the plaque.
Something else. It seems that certain late Fed 1e don't have the regular 3,5/50mm Fed lens. I own one of them with a bayonet Sonnar 1,5/5cm cautiously adapted on a Fed rear crown. There is another one in the wiki. And a third one on a Fed-Arsenal (the s/n 00050) shown in the article. Aftermarket adaptation, or lack of lenses at that time? Could there be a correlation with the use of 1948 Industar 22 on most of these cameras?
Amitiés. Jacques. |
Edited by - Jacques M. on Jun 04 2016 2:30:08 PM |
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
Posted - Jun 04 2016 : 2:43:31 PM
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A word more about that question of lenses.
By our wiki, and for the 1e-s, the s/n of lenses is always under the body's ones, with just one exception.
Generally, it's just the contrary.
That could lead too towards a lack of lenses for the 1e-s and the Fed-Arsenal.
Jacques. |
Edited by - Jacques M. on Jun 04 2016 2:43:59 PM |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - Jun 04 2016 : 4:00:26 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
A word more about that question of lenses.
By our wiki, and for the 1e-s, the s/n of lenses is always under the body's ones, with just one exception.
Generally, it's just the contrary.
That could lead too towards a lack of lenses for the 1e-s and the Fed-Arsenal.
The serials for 50/3.5 should be much lower because of FED S which were fitted with 50/2.0 Taylor-Hobson clones.
The lack of lenses for FED-Arsenal might be because they were not able to produce lenses.
That shows what a great factory FED was before the war.
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
Posted - Jun 05 2016 : 10:58:40 AM
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We don't know how many Fed-Arsenal were made, nor in which conditions, nor exactly with which parts. But we have already decided that the s/n 00022 is a fake! If I had been a guy of Arsenal and found a complete 1c in a chest, I would have used it first!
And we forget too that normal rules of production cannot be applied to this period of recovery. For example, the two "1 turn" lenses that we find on the s/n 00127 and 00216 are curious. It seems that parts in the chests were not only from 1e-s.
Note that I have not said that this camera is genuine: for the moment, it's just impossible to know. But I discuss for peanuts: all the series is in the "contested or unauthentified" section! 
Jacques.
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - Jun 05 2016 : 12:13:55 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
But we have already decided that the s/n 00022 is a fake!
And we forget too that normal rules of production cannot be applied to this period of recovery. For example, the two "1 turn" lenses that we find on the s/n 00127 and 00216 are curious.
Note that I have not said that this camera is genuine: for the moment, it's just impossible to know. But I discuss for peanuts: all the series is in the "contested or unauthentified" section!
"WE" decided nothing.
Vlad and Bill decided to put it in the contested section.
I decide every day new how I think about certain cameras. Every day I evaluate new and if I get new information I might come to new conclusions. But for now #00022 is not original to me. Could be that the top plate is original and was assembled on a broken 1c camera, who knows, but still the whole camera would not be original then. Elnur asked and I gave my opinion.
And for peanuts sake, these are cameras with interchangeable lenses. If you know you have a fake camera, it is nice to put a 1-turn lens on it to make it look famous.
For example, Fed-1a #155. We all know it was sold WITHOUT lens. Suddenly this #155 has a separate entry here in the wiki WITH lens and it is not even mentioned that it is not the original lens.
Camera/lens combinations are mostly worth peanuts, only passports might give a hint. |
Edited by - Lenny on Jun 05 2016 12:16:29 PM |
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
Posted - Jun 05 2016 : 3:09:15 PM
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Yes, of course! Very funny, indeed!
We put a 1 turn Fed lens (unfindable) on a Fed-Arsenal, unfindable too! All that to fake. Certainly, we are joking...
Don't you feel "we" are ridiculous ?
And every day , you decide to re-evaluate the wiki, by yourself, if I understand correctly? Once more time, I ask the question: who are you to do so? Could you give us a sign showing that you are a collector rather than a troll?
About the Fed s/n 155, certainly it's not the subject, or I am wrong, once more?  Perhaps you should open a new thread?
And please, don't use capital letters. Between us, though old, I am not deaf
Jacques. |
Edited by - Jacques M. on Jun 05 2016 3:18:46 PM |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jun 05 2016 : 8:47:52 PM
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The entry for FED-Arsenal was moved from the "Modified and Fantasy Cameras" section to the "Unidentified / Contested Authenticity" section. This is a step up for the FED-Arsenal ... from "Fantasy" to "Contested Authenticity". No doubt when and if there becomes documentary is proof that these cameras are the ones that were actually made by Arsenal, then they will be moved to another category. I would also ask Lenny who he is, and where he lives (just which country - no one will get his address to take his cameras) and to volunteer some information about his collection or experience. We have all done so over the years and have not been robbed because of it. Just sharing information with some other interested friends.
Regards, Bill
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4212 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jun 06 2016 : 10:50:57 AM
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Sorry for a delayed reply. Regarding the picture of the FED that I posted earlier with a initials cover, here's what the caption says and I'm not sure how accurate that is but it's a very interesting statement:
FED-Arsenal" with an "Berdsk" [1e] engraving "FED №183569."
The camera body was designed for model "B". [note the covered slow dial hole]
Hole exists for 1\1000 in speed dial disk.
All of the features characteristic of the species of Kiev's FED Arsenal except panel and lens are available.
Here, the cover assembly is not sandblasted chrome and just grinded - noticeable on the surface of the cover.
It seems that they just did not have sandblaster.
Another feature - the shutter spring - pink colorб unpainted.
Chromed panel - without nickel substrate.
The description of this camera looked peculiar to me that it may have a been a leftover parts camera that was partially assembled in Berdsk as FED-B with leftover 1e cover.. and later Arsenal got same kind of camera body leftovers to do FED-Arsenal? This story has too many confusing unknowns that is why FED-Arsenal is going to sit in "contested" category until there is a undisputable passport or documentation for a specific camera.
And to add to what Bill wrote, Lenny, there is a tradition on this forum to make a separate post introducing yourself, telling us a little bit about yourself, what you collect, how long, a little bit about your collection. Given your heavy participation I'm sure a lot of long time members are interested of who is the "mysterious" Lenny . It would be great if you do such a post. I promise I will not send robbers to your house while you're a member of this forum 
Best regards,
Vlad |
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
Posted - Jun 07 2016 : 04:50:16 AM
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Thanks for the translation, Vlad.
The photo of this Fed 1e is too bad to see correctly the spring and what is around it. However, we can see that the speed dial and the frame counter are of the Fed-Arsenal type...
The photo of the Fed-Arsenal s/n 00043 is much interesting. It shows extra holes for the screws of the slow speed spring and the connection towards the selector. It corresponds to those which can be observed on the Fed "B".
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/762016_fed arsenal s-n 43.png
This Fed-Arsenal s/n 00043 could have been a Fed "B" in a better life... Note that these extra holes don't exist on any of my own Fed 1-s, nor my Fed-Arsenal s/n 00067.
Amitiés. Jacques.
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Edited by - Jacques M. on Jun 07 2016 05:01:11 AM |
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
Posted - Jun 14 2016 : 05:38:47 AM
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Two of the lenses on these Fed-Arsenal are 1935 Fed "1 turn".
I have added them in the wiki.
Thanks to the owners!
Jacques. |
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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
1871 Posts
My Collection
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
Posted - Feb 19 2017 : 11:52:59 AM
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Thanks, Luiz.
By this article, there is an inscription inside the Fed bodies, which represents the date of making.
In my Fed Arsenal, I have a "III" on the body, behind the film plate (photo already posted).
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1922017_DSCF2178.JPG
Could it be for march?
Jacques.
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Alfa2
Poland
349 Posts |
Posted - Feb 20 2017 : 05:38:42 AM
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| I saw similar sign in a FED. But it was long time ago. I don't remember in which FED it was and what was the sign. |
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alzo
8 Posts |
Posted - Dec 25 2022 : 08:42:15 AM
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After a long search and intense digging through the archives, I almost despaired of finding illustrative material in my search. It so happened that this year, on May 9, after a long illness, Serov Nikolai Fedorovich, the chief engineer and head of the head of photography production, died. His memory is fresh, but it was he who, during his lifetime, directed me into the mainstream of the subject and direction of searches. At one time, he suggested where there could be an illustration of what is so necessary for documentary confirmation, for which I am especially grateful to him. And so here is an image that confirms the products of the Plant, the production of fed at the arsenal. This is a frame from a formatted glass photo plate, among other reporting elements produced by the coating shop.
The report was compiled by the end of the 4th five-year plan of the USSR
Retaken by me through the light due to the lack of scanning equipment in this archive photo taken on a mobile phone plate in the light
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/25122022_320173279_1522879618192119_9098875490796308875_n.jpg
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/25122022_321240948_2086536421547178_2831498898881650725_n.jpg
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/25122022_321303778_480899073973482_2800357425551425880_n.jpg
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/25122022_321076106_2025411100985487_504357818180094894_n.jpg
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
Posted - Dec 25 2022 : 11:17:23 AM
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Many thanks for this lucky find, Alzo!
Could you be more precise and tell more about it (if it is possible...)
And could somebody translate the Russian text?
Thanks!
Amitiés. Jacques. |
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Alex_Rus
Russia
34 Posts |
Posted - Jan 03 2023 : 07:58:22 AM
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Top: "Anodic blackening of copper alloys"
Bottom: "The oxidized film of oxidized copper alloys in a 20% alkali solution has great mechanical strength and a beautiful decorative appearance. The anode oxidation bath is easy to operate, the electrolyte is highly stable."
(Google translation) |
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
Posted - Jan 03 2023 : 08:47:38 AM
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Thanks, Alex.
Of course, it would have been indisputable if it had spoken of the Fed-Arsenal production. But as it is, it's a very interesting indirect confirmation. And it shows a serial number we don't have in our listing (00226?).
Thanks again, Alzo!
Amitiés. Jacques. |
Edited by - Jacques M. on Jan 03 2023 08:48:29 AM |
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4212 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jan 04 2023 : 3:52:49 PM
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Hi Jacques, I think you've misunderstood the meaning of this photo that Alzo posted. This is a film negative from Arsenal factory archives from around the time this camera was made demonstrating a anodation process and has the top of FED-Arsenal as an example in it. For me this is an indisputable evidence of validity of such camera existence and manufacture by Arsenal plant, being this part of an official factory report for the 4 year plan. And I know for a fact that Alzo has access to Arsenal factory archive materials. Personally this puts all of the doubt about this camera to rest and I will move it to an Arsenal section in the catalog.
Best regards,
Vlad |
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
Posted - Jan 05 2023 : 04:05:22 AM
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I had not understand...
So, that document puts a final point to our discussion about the place where these cameras were made... I must say I am a bit moved!
Thanks again, Alzo!
You have put the camera in the Kiev section, Vlad. It is logical. But personally, I would have seen it among the Feds?
Amitiés. Jacques. |
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4212 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jan 05 2023 : 09:28:04 AM
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Jacques, it is 100% made on Arsenal factory based on FED drawings so it belongs under Arsenal since it's made there. Just as Zorki belongs under KMZ.. It's under "Kiev Arsenal - Other." Kiev being the city not the camera.
Best regards,
Vlad |
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts |
Posted - Jan 05 2023 : 11:03:25 AM
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Right. And I had said that the "Kiev Arsenal" section was logical. For me, it's certainly more an affective question... And my Fed-Arsenal is amongst other exotic Fed 1, not with its fellows from Kiev!
We can compare with the Fed-KMZ cameras, but those ones had an illustrious lineage...
A question: does the serial number (00226) has a special signification for the Plant? It's the last found until now: could it be the last produced?
Amitiés. Jacques.
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Topic |
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Fed-Arsenal
