| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| okynek |
Posted - Jan 21 2008 : 9:49:23 PM
before I mess up this katalog, it was one camera on eBay #280190465127:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=280190465127&ssPageName=STRK:MEDW:IT&ih=018
I'm not sure if it should go in it. |
| 100 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Jacques M. |
Posted - Feb 10 2023 : 09:25:21 AM
An oddity on the body: a hole in the back, so probably to check the register. But there is no hole in the press-film...
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/1022023_IMG_0980.JPG
That time, no date on the shutter-box for this s/n 174942.
Amitiés. Jacques.
|
| Jacques M. |
Posted - Feb 10 2023 : 09:20:01 AM
Thanks, Ulrich!
I received another 1e S some days ago, in very bad condition, but for nothing (or almost).
In fact, the rewind button was lacking (easy to re-place), but the release button was absent too. So, no connecting rod towards the release spring, no command of the main drum, etc. My first idea was to keep it for parts.
But a 1e S is not such common... Here is the result. The body is still a wreck, but the missing parts are in place. It is always non working:
the curtains must be changed and the mechanism checked. But I had a lot of fun!
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/1022023_IMG_0979.JPG
|
| uwittehh |
Posted - Jan 22 2023 : 2:06:53 PM
Jacques,
congratulations to that rarity!
My latest FED Berdsk has serial number 182433 and the numbers 5 VIII scratched on the shutter housing.
Ulrich
http://fotos.cconin.de |
| Jacques M. |
Posted - Jan 21 2023 : 09:21:01 AM
I had forgotten: 31 VIII (1941) is engraved inside on the shutter box. It's the last day found for these cameras, though the last s/n is 183892 in our wiki, 183906 by Alexei Nikitin's site...
Was this camera delayed for some reason, or the mounting at the factory went on later in september?
I own the 183613 with 16 X inside, but I doubt...
Amitiés. Jacques. |
| Jacques M. |
Posted - Jan 21 2023 : 08:49:09 AM
A 1e more here. In fact, an S with a surprise:
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/2112023_IMG_0924.JPG
The "20-1" was engraved for the Fed B: coupling with the slow speed machanism. Rather rare!
All the rest is common, alas. I hoped some traces on the shutter box, but all is regular...
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/2112023_IMG_0925.JPG
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/2112023_IMG_0927.JPG
Amitiés. Jacques.
|
| Jacques M. |
Posted - Oct 13 2020 : 11:22:46 AM
Two other Fed 1e here:
- the S # 178311 with the 2/50mm # 32348. Date inside: 8 VII, more or less coherent with the other dates we have,
- the S # 183209, with a macro collapsible Fed lens. In fact, all comes from a Fed-Zorki camera, except the cover! Beautiful leatherette, perfectly working. And no date inside (contrarily to Fed, KMZ did not have that "tradition").
Jacques. |
| Jacques M. |
Posted - Aug 11 2020 : 10:14:45 AM
At first sight, all seems correct for a 1e. Except, of course, the date 16/X. If this camera is completely original, that would mean that some very late 1e were mounted after the evacuation, possibly at Berdsk.
Concerning this s/n 183613, the shutters are original, and I found nothing really strange when taking it to pieces, except that the lensplate is not shimmed, and that it seems not perfectly centered on the body. Perhaps difficult conditions of mounting at Berdsk?
The last 1e known is the s/n 183906, by Alexey Nikitin's site. As far as I know, we don't know the internal inscription of date on the very late 1e.
Amitiés. Jacques. |
| Jacques M. |
Posted - Aug 11 2020 : 09:56:47 AM
I have just dismounted my 1e s/n 183613 (though very reluctantly) to know more about that camera. Here are some photos:
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/1182020_IMG_0152.JPG
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/1182020_IMG_0161.JPG
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/1182020_IMG_0169.JPG
I have plenty of others, if necessary!
|
| Jacques M. |
Posted - Jul 26 2020 : 09:13:22 AM
quote:
Originally posted by basic-collector
Here another camera to add to the list, №175553 from a seller on ebay
https://www.ebay.com/itm/FED-BERDSKI-type-1e-Vintage-WWII-1945-Russian-Original-Camera-copy-Leica-II-D/143657847916?hash=item2172accc6c:g:F7IAAOSweFhewZH4
It seems strange inside, looking from the opened bottom... what's your feelings?
Yes, I had seen it.
It looks like a spring for cameras with a delaying mechanism. Probably a home made modification...
Thanks for the numbers.
Jacques. |
| basic-collector |
Posted - Jul 25 2020 : 11:02:08 AM
Two more... n.179919 https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-FED-1-E-Zorki-NKVD-sn-179919-1-3-5-F-50M-M-Original-Case-1000pcs-serie/373007503343?hash=item56d8facfef:g:w64AAOSwv-ledOPm
and n.176931
https://www.ebay.com/itm/FED-Type-1e-Berdsk-Rangefinder-Camera-3-5-50-M39-Leica-Mount-USSR/174310750899?hash=item2895bafab3:g:-hAAAOSwYfBe3ojC
The interesting thing is that each seller tells a different story ... :-) |
| basic-collector |
Posted - Jul 25 2020 : 10:53:58 AM
Here another camera to add to the list, №175553 from a seller on ebay
https://www.ebay.com/itm/FED-BERDSKI-type-1e-Vintage-WWII-1945-Russian-Original-Camera-copy-Leica-II-D/143657847916?hash=item2172accc6c:g:F7IAAOSweFhewZH4
It seems strange inside, looking from the opened bottom... what's your feelings? |
| Jacques M. |
Posted - Jul 21 2020 : 08:42:25 AM
Ha, ha!
This part of wikipedia is much better, though not perfect:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FED_%28camera%29
Another Fed 1e, here. The s/n 183613, one of the last ones.
The date inside is 16/X or 16/XI, so after the evacuation. Could it be a "real" Berdsk? It's a pity we don't have the dates of control for the very last 1e-s, up to c. 184000, as it seems.
Of course, there can be other explanations: repair, re-mounting with other parts, etc.
Something else interesting: the lens is a collapsible macro, s/n 2121. But is it the original one? I don't know.
Amitiés. Jacques. |
| basic-collector |
Posted - Jul 20 2020 : 4:01:07 PM
Hello, thanks to all of you guys for the very interesting posts!
I think that someone expert has to edit the Wiki page, a lot confusing indeed!
I mean this one
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FED_(camera)
cheers |
| Jacques M. |
Posted - Feb 22 2017 : 10:44:32 AM
To complete this thread, following the article of photolubitel, the internal inscriptions of my Fed 1e:
- 175011: not readable,
- 180971 S: 3 VIII
- 182912: 4 III
- 183231: 30 VIII
Many of my Fed 1 have this inscription made with a needle. The place seems on the shutter box, in the cassette house (under the rewind button). But it should be necessary to dismount partially the camera to see that perfectly.
My 182912 seems out of the lines, with its 4 III...
Amitiés. Jacques. |
| Jacques M. |
Posted - Feb 19 2017 : 10:59:44 AM
I dig out this thread after having tried to read this article:
http://photolubitel.com/index.php?route=module/kbm/article&kbm_article_id=9
Thanks, Luiz, for the link!
It seems, if I understand correctly the first part, that many (all? some?) Fed 1 have an inscription inside, giving the date of manufacture.
I have checked some of my Fed 1, and my last 1e s/n 183231 has 30 VIII engraved inside. So, it should have been made the 30 of august 1941, certainly at Kharkov, like all the other numbered 1e we know.
Amitiés. Jacques. |
| Alfa2 |
Posted - May 22 2016 : 2:03:12 PM
Thanks Vlad and Ulrich.
Especially interesting is pseudo-Berdsk FED S.
|
| Vlad |
Posted - May 22 2016 : 10:59:41 AM
Alfa2,
As promised my serial #s for the pseudo-Berdsk:
177511 Lens: FED F3.5, inside serial #5701
178482 1/1000 speed (FED-S), Lens FED F3.5, inside serial #9607 |
| Luiz Paracampo |
Posted - May 20 2016 : 7:07:46 PM
Giving the right url and translation of Zoom page:
http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/misc/gko-2445.html
Top secret
Ruling
State Defense Committee
Number 2445 cc
Moscow Kremlin
October 23, 1942
On the selection of opto-mechanical production from the plant number 296 Narkomaviaproma and transfer it to the system Narkomvooruzheniya
State Defense Committee decided:
1. Cancel Item 4 Resolution GFCS 2140 pp 1) of 4 August 1942 relating to the transfer of the plant number 296 2) Narkomaviaproma’ in Narkomvooruzheniya’ system.
2. To instruct the Narkomaviaprom - T Shakhurin pass before November 1 of this year on factories Narkomvooruzheniya optical optical-mechanical manufacturing factory number 296 in the formulation.:
a) all work in progress for all opto-mechanical, civil and military instruments, manufactures and previously produced on the factory number 296;
b) all equipment, tools and equipment for the production of optical components and assemblies of optical instruments and 30% of the total number of factory normal cutting and measuring tools for metalworking;
c) reserves all metals, glass and other optical materials available in the plant for production of opto-mechanical devices;
d) metal cutting, optical and other equipment, according to Annex 3);
d) all workers, engineers and technicians working in the optical and assembly plants in the optical manufacturing plant and 20% of workers in the mechanical and instrumental workshops.
3. To instruct the Narkomvooruzheniya - ing. Ustinova translate transmitted, according to paragraph 2 of this resolution, optical-mechanical part of the production plant number 296 on the Siberian group of optical factories Narkomvooruzheniya 4).
4. To instruct the People's Commissariat - ing. Hrulev select cars in the amount and timing of application Narkomvooruzheniya for transportation of equipment, materials and people from the factory 296 Narkomaviaproma (Mountains. Berdsk Novosibirsk Region) optical Narkomvooruzheniya plants.
Chairman of the State Defense Committee
I. Stalin
xxxxxxxxx
Top secret
Chairman of the State Defense Committee
Comrade I. V. Stalin
Here we present a draft Resolution of the State Defense Committee, "On the selection of opto-mechanical production from the plant number 296 Narkomaviaproma and transfer it to the system Narkomvooruzheniya".
Currently, the plant number 296 manufactured pumps for direct injection aircraft engines, power tools and military optical instruments.
Available in three different factory production complicates the process and does not provide further their normal development.
The draft regulation provides for the allocation of optical-mechanical manufacturing plant number 296 on Narkomvooruzheniya plants and leaving the factory number 296 in Narkomaviaproma system for the production of pumps and power (motors) of direct injection.
L. Beria
D. Ustinov
P. Dementiev
October 22, 1942
Nº LB-2788
Narkomaviaprom - National Comitee of airplane production
Narkomvooruzheniya - National Comitee of weapon (production)
|
| uwittehh |
Posted - May 20 2016 : 4:50:41 PM
My serials:
- 176328 Lens FED 1:2/50 27183
- 176810 Lens I-10 137814
- 182433 Lens I-10 105593
Ulrich
http://fotos.cconin.de |
| Alfa2 |
Posted - May 18 2016 : 09:23:10 AM
Sure Vlad, and S/N of the lens pls.
|
| Vlad |
Posted - May 18 2016 : 08:59:21 AM
that's a FED-S, I have a 1e FED-S also with 1/1000 but regular 3.5 lens. Will look at serial # later if you guys are interested. it's in 17XXXXX range.. |
| Lenny |
Posted - May 18 2016 : 07:56:33 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Alfa2
Why it has 1/1000 ?
Was it FED S ?
#183321 is listed with 1/1000 too, so this makes sense too. |
| Alfa2 |
Posted - May 18 2016 : 07:43:48 AM
Why it has 1/1000 ?
Was it FED S ?
|
| Lenny |
Posted - May 18 2016 : 07:42:34 AM
Thanks Aleksandrov,
it's really amazing that so many Fed-1e look so good,
as if they were never used,
as if they were not bought from someone who wants to use it,
as if they were gifts maybe for outstanding military performance.
I put it in the wiki under FED-1e too, to be complete. |
| Aleksandrov66 |
Posted - May 18 2016 : 07:18:24 AM
Good day everyone!
Yesterday i was offered to buy (i didn't) camera n.183428.
I'd like to share a photo (s\n is already in the wiki):
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1852016_untitled.jpg
Unfortunately, i got only one picture.
|
| AlexanderK |
Posted - May 17 2016 : 12:08:13 PM
Hello guys,
here are my Berdsk-cameras:
- 176426
- 182602
... unfortunately without any papers.
Regards, Alexander |
| elnur |
Posted - May 16 2016 : 1:49:15 PM
Oh, sorry. You r right Lenny. Made mistake. |
| Lenny |
Posted - May 16 2016 : 1:10:35 PM
Thanks Elnur,
on the passport I read #177512. Is the camera #177572 ? |
| elnur |
Posted - May 16 2016 : 12:40:12 PM
and one more 177572 from 1st of July 41
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1652016_pr1Pp27EESg.jpg
|
| Vlad |
Posted - May 16 2016 : 10:49:15 AM
Here are a few more serial #s and dates for the 1e, courtesy of Elnur:
163623 March 22 1941
164716 March 18 1941
175116 June 21 1941
177611 July 3 1941
178319 July 12 1941
180024 July 31 1941
181100 July 30 1941
Cheers,
Vlad |
| elnur |
Posted - May 16 2016 : 09:58:25 AM
Thank You all for the warm welcome! I am very pleased )
About packing cameras. I'm certainly not a historian, and do not have enough facts to say it all. But a fresh idea will not harm us. I did not mean that the passports were written in advance. But on the contrary that there had been a batch of cameras, which later had to undergo some checking. After the devices are tested, Packed and were issued certificates. And the devices that were problematic were returned for repair. And possibly from the earlier numbers, but with the late date in the certificate. I think that's why there's the confusion. |
| Jacques M. |
Posted - May 15 2016 : 03:54:42 AM
Thanks, Vlad, and welcome to you, Elnur!
So, passports show the date of sale. That completely changes the point of view, of course! No possibility to calculate a precise production from the serial numbers, for example. And the 1e were very probably made entirely before the evacuation. No more problem, unless perhaps about the last ones. Were they sold too? When? Always before evacuation? Or reserved to the Red Army, as I had guessed somewhere, half by joke?
No doubt you will help us to put some missing pieces on this entangled puzzle, Elnur. Thanks...
Amitiés. Jacques. |
| Lenny |
Posted - May 15 2016 : 02:38:20 AM
Thanks Elnur.
This makes sense, that the passports were written when the cameras were packaged for sale.
It doesn't make sense that passport dates were written in advance, because once they needed to package the cameras they would need to search for the passports, when writing a passport just takes 1 minute.
Of course the cameras were not sold consecutive to their serial numbers. Cameras with higher serials could be sold earlier.
Later this might have changed little bit when they only wrote the month and year in the passports.
|
| Vlad |
Posted - May 15 2016 : 12:32:09 AM
Welcome Elnur, it's great to have another big FED expert in our midst! What Elnur is trying to say ( I had earlier conversation with him) is that the dates on passports are not the dates of manufacture but the dates of sale. Not all of batches of these cameras would get sold at the same time. These dates on passports are filled in when the cameras are sold, sometimes they would be sold in different sequence and sometimes would sit on shelves of the store for a while so the dates are not actual manufacture dates. Also when cameras are returned to factory for repair because of defects they would get issued new dates on passports.
It's a pleasure and honor to have you here, Elnur! I hope to see more of your participation!
Vlad |
| Lenny |
Posted - May 14 2016 : 5:32:33 PM
quote:
Originally posted by elnur
Good evening guys! why do you think that this is the date of manufacture? I now intended that this date of packaging. and the production of the marriage took place, in consequence of that, some parties came back to troubleshoot.
Hello Elnur,
I don't exactly understand what you want to say,
but congratulations to your FIRST POST. |
| elnur |
Posted - May 14 2016 : 3:16:35 PM
Good evening guys! why do you think that this is the date of manufacture? I now intended that this date of packaging. and the production of the marriage took place, in consequence of that, some parties came back to troubleshoot.
|
| Lenny |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 10:09:15 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
BTW, I have found, always on Alexey's site, the s/n 175524, with the same date of 21/6/41... It goes towards the same way. I add it in my precedent listing.
So the passports of #175118 and #175524 were written on the same day. At first sight people might think that they also wrote all other passports between those two serials on the same day. But that might not be the case. Cameras didn't finish production consecutive to their serials. They were only consecutive engraved during production.
These 2 cameras finished production 12 weeks before evacuation. A production of #183892 (last 1e in the wiki) before evacuation seems possible. They were able to produce 9000 cameras in 12 weeks. |
| Zoom |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 3:54:08 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Lenny
...and they set up a table with information about Joschkar-Ola, which Zoom calls a not reliable sourse and a piece made in delirium.
The Kinap plant from Odessa was transferred to the plant No.297 NKV in Yoshkar-Ola.
Used documents:
GKO Order No.374ss -- August 2, 1941.
GKO Order No.681ss -- September 16, 1941.
Cited also: The Economic Council of the SNK USSR Order No.1880-564s -- December 6, 1940.
Source: Russian State Archive of Socio-Political History (RGASPI), fund (ôîíä): 644, inventory (îïèñü): 2, cases (äåëî): 10 (list 39, par. 16) and 18 (list 84).
|
| Lenny |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 12:39:41 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
Bravo for this personal interpretation with buckets
Jacques, please check Princelle's book, page 124 ok, they don't look like buckets, more like container |
| Lenny |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 12:23:30 PM
Jacques, I forgot where I saw it, but I saw a photo of Zorki production when they molded the top plates I think, and there was a bucket so big that a person could hide in it Sure Zorki was real mass production.
Jacques, it seems you never saw passport #168018. I can tell you, I never saw it too. I might have gotten the information about #168018 from the wiki. As long as we don't have prove that this passport exists we should put the information on hold. Maybe someone from the BFM put that information there. Do you know the BFM, the Berdsk Fake Mafia. Then this Mafia spread the news that even Fed-1d were produced in Berdsk and they set up a table with information about Joschkar-Ola, which Zoom calls a not reliable sourse and a piece made in delirium.
But I can tell you, I saw the passport #164716. |
| Jacques M. |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 11:48:29 AM
Bravo for this personal interpretation with buckets, quality control and errors of writing! It's a long time since I have been keen on Feds, and I never saw so clearly how they worked inside the factory. Thanks!
That said, once more, it is always not completely impossible that Fed 1e were entirely made in Kharkov. But, even if there can be a mistake (!), I go on doubting, specially for the last 2-3000 last ones for which we don't have passport. We can suppose that the emergency was rather on the evacuation. But I repeat myself and now this discussion is finished for me, unless there is a new fact, of course! |
| Lenny |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 09:22:53 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
We just have to try and understand. Not to correct anything.
But all that is boring. Once more time, that turns into a personal quarrel. I am not interested.
Yes, we have to understand that lower serial numbers are also at the bottom of the bucket during production and will be assembled later. We have to understand that quality control can put cameras on hold. We have to understand that there are not only engraving errors with digits missing or digits added, there can also be errors when writting VI instead of IV on a passport. But all information together shows a very accurate picture which is enough to know what kind of production was possible at that time. |
| Jacques M. |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 09:02:55 AM
We just have to try and understand. Not to correct anything.
But all that is boring. Once more time, that turns into a personal quarrel. I am not interested.
|
| Lenny |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 08:40:26 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
The passport of the S s/n 180024 was established on a Kharkov paper. We don't know for the others.
We have a real problem of comprehension between number of cameras/passports/location of production concerning these Fed 1e.
#164716 is Lesopark 54 too. I have a photo. |
| Lenny |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 08:31:25 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
quote:
If the majority of passport match our calculation we are pretty much on the right side.
Just no.
Then you have to believe that they produced 7100 cameras in 3 days (#168018-#175118). And in this case you are VERY WRONG.
And you have to believe that they produced 3302 cameras in 92 days (#164716-#168018). |
| Lenny |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 08:25:10 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
You are funny, Lenny. You chose the passports which agree you. And you ask me to forget two of them. But I cannot!
I think we have questions to put concerning the passports and their exact correlation with cameras. This period june/september 1941 was exceptional, and Fed could have used urgency procedures...
Jacques, there is no correct correlation as some might think. As we can see, #181100 was produced 1 day before #180024. But we are very correct if we say they were both made in July. #168018 is just an bad example to calculate with, but we know they were not able to produce 7100 cameras within 3 days. We know it's impossible to produce cameras consecutive to their serials. Then there is the quality control which put some cameras on hold. We are pretty much on the right side with all other passports. |
| Jacques M. |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 08:10:19 AM
quote:
If the majority of passport match our calculation we are pretty much on the right side.
Just no. |
| Lenny |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 08:02:46 AM
Jacques, there could be other possibilities.
Imagine, camera #168018 was produced and didn't pass the quality control, so it had to be repaired.
We should follow of course the passports we have, but not all. If the majority of passport match our calculation we are pretty much on the right side.
Also we have to understand how the serials were produced. For examle serial #160000 was engraved and was put in an big empty bucket. Later #160999 was engraved and was put on top of the bucket which is now full of engraved top plates. Next step in production is assembling. It starts with the top plate on top of the bucket, #160999. Much later top plate #160000 was assembled.
That's why passports #180024 and #181100 can both be true, even if passport #181100 was written the day before. But we calculate with #180024 till evacuation which is much harder than if we calculated with #181100. |
| Jacques M. |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 07:55:20 AM
What can I say?
You are funny, Lenny. You chose the passports which agree you. And you ask me to forget two of them. But I cannot!
I think we have questions to put concerning the passports and their exact correlation with cameras. This period june/september 1941 was exceptional, and Fed could have used urgency procedures...
Jacques.
|
| Lenny |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 07:38:46 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Lenny
From #164716 till #168018 they produced 252 cameras per week according to the passports, very less.
From #168018 till #175118 they produced 17750 per week. Easy to recognize a mistake here.
If we calculate with month IV (April) instead of VI (June) we will get an amazing result. What I quoted above will change to THIS.
From #164716 till #168018 they produced 750 cameras per week.
From #168018 till #175118 they produced 780 per week.
Amazing right
It's just a human mistake, who is used to write with roman figures. |
| Lenny |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 07:21:34 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
I postule that the only way to understand the situation is to follow the documents we have, not to criticize them.
Of course, but we have to check if the numbers are possible.
From #164716 till #168018 they produced 252 cameras per week according to the passports, very less.
From #168018 till #175118 they produced 17750 per week. Easy to recognize a mistake here.
But from #164716 till #175118 they produced 765 cameras per week. This is possible and seems very accurate.
Just forget about passport #168018. Also forget about passport #181100. Calculate from #180024 till the last in the wiki #183892 and it's 586 cameras per week till evacuation.
Now if we calculate with 765 per week from #180024 till evacuation a camera #185073 could be possible. So we are pretty much on the safe side that all were produced in Kharkov before evacuation. |
| Jacques M. |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 06:53:35 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Lenny
Jacques, now I understand why 12000. Forget about this passport #168018, it is out off the line of other passports.
It could simply be that they wrote 18 VI 1941 instead of 18 IV 1941 for #168018.
There, I cannot follow you. I postule that the only way to understand the situation is to follow the documents we have, not to criticize them. Even if they don't make us pleasure!
BTW, I have found, always on Alexey's site, the s/n 175524, with the same date of 21/6/41... It goes towards the same way. I add it in my precedent listing.
Jacques. |
| Jacques M. |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 06:42:27 AM
quote:
Why do you think of 12000 cameras?
181100 - 168018 # 13000 cameras in 42 days. Of course impossible.
And 7000 cameras in 3 days it's impossible too!
The passport of the S s/n 180024 was established on a Kharkov paper. We don't know for the others.
Of course, the passports can have been filled in a hurry after the parts were made for the corresponding cameras. But it doesn't enlighten the whole question.
We have a real problem of comprehension between number of cameras/passports/location of production concerning these Fed 1e.
Jacques. |
| Lenny |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 05:56:54 AM
Jacques, now I understand why 12000. Forget about this passport #168018, it is out off the line of other passports.
It could simply be that they wrote 18 VI 1941 instead of 18 IV 1941 for #168018. |
| Lenny |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 05:43:24 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
the timing seems unrealistic by the passports we have (I have added dates and numbers found on Alexey's site):
- s/n 175118 : 21/6/41,
- s/n 181100 : 30/7/41,
To produce 12000 cameras in 45 days is impossible.
All the remaining materials were transferred to Krasnogorsk in 1942.
Jacques, as I understood it the Fed equipment was transferred to KOMZ in November 1942 and was stored there till it was transferred to Arsenal in Febuary 1945. KMZ might have gotten everything after Arsenal stopped producing as Altix assumed.
Why do you think of 12000 cameras?
Where did you find those 2 passports? |
| Zoom |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 12:58:04 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
All the remaining materials were transferred to Krasnogorsk in 1942.
No. A personnel only. Their number is not known (a list of the names is incomplete). A few dozen people (maximum)... |
| Zoom |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 12:47:38 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Luiz Paracampo
Link does not work
Corrected, sorry. |
| Jacques M. |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 12:25:19 AM
Thanks Zoom.
So, we are always at the same point, more or less. If I try to summarize:
All the Fed 1e could have been completely produced at Kharkov before evacuation. That said, the timing seems unrealistic by the passports we have (I have added dates and numbers found on Alexey's site):
- s/n 164716 : 18/3/41,
- s/n 168018 : 18/6/41,
- s/n 175118 : 21/6/41,
- s/n 175524 : 21/6/41,
- s/n 181100 : 30/7/41,
- s/n 180024 (S):31/7/41.
To produce 12000 cameras in 45 days is impossible. Were some cameras mounted elsewhere? Or are there "big" holes in the numbering, as the JLP suggests?
It is unlikely that cameras were produced at Berdsk's plant during the war. On the other hand, it's not completely impossible that some were only mounted from parts coming from Kharkov, after the evacuation.
All the remaining materials were transferred to Krasnogorsk in 1942. So, KMZ too could have played his part concerning the mounting of Fed 1e after the war. After all, there is no real difference in quality between Fed-Zorkis and Fed 1e.
Berdsk produced the NKAP "Red Flag", probably from already existing spare parts, in 1946.
Arsenal produced the Fed-Arsenal in 1946-47, in very small numbers, from existing and "home" made parts.
Fed-Kharkov resumed the production in june 1948 (the first Fed 1f).
What an entangled story... The main question remains of course the place of production/mounting for the 1e. We only have hypothesis, absolutely no certitude... Certainly, we miss a major fact?
Amitiés. Jacques.
|
| Luiz Paracampo |
Posted - May 12 2016 : 10:40:18 PM
reimaging
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1252016_error1.png
|
| Luiz Paracampo |
Posted - May 12 2016 : 10:33:11 PM
Link does not work
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1252016_error.png
|
| Zoom |
Posted - May 12 2016 : 4:59:41 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
Happy to know that there are documents which prove that there were no Fed made at Berdsk during the war.
This article is not about the production of cameras in Berdsk. But, indeed, the FED production on the plant No.296 NKAP has been discontinued. The plant is fully switched to military production.
quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
My question was in fact more extensive: can we affirm that there were no Fed mounted during the war, at Berdsk or elsewhere? Are there documents too to prove that?
The FED factory (No.296 NKAP) gave all its optical part according the GKO order No.2445 (23 October 1942).
http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/misc/gko-2445.html
All optical equipment, materials and so on were taken away. Nevertheless, a certain number of cameras left. According to the factory's history book, the plant began to assemble cameras in 1946, as I remember. But there is no documentary evidence to the cameras assembly before February 1946...
|
| Jacques M. |
Posted - May 12 2016 : 09:31:54 AM
Zoom,
Happy to know that there are documents which prove that there were no Fed made at Berdsk during the war. My question was in fact more extensive: can we affirm that there were no Fed mounted during the war, at Berdsk or elsewhere? Are there documents too to prove that?
Thanks. Jacques. |
| Zoom |
Posted - May 12 2016 : 07:36:05 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
That said, I agree with you at, let us say 90% with what you wrote. Especially about Berdsks which were not made at Berdsk and KMZ which used Fed parts. I had said all that (I was not alone!) in 2013 and earlier. I just wonder what happened so that these ideas have something of official now? Zoom's article? With all the respect due to him, it's not enough. Proofs need documents, and I don't see any. Perhaps I missed something?
I did not notice right away ... If we are talking about the article "ZENIT: prehistory", then there is all based on the documents. |
| Jacques M. |
Posted - May 10 2016 : 4:27:56 PM
Of course the serial numbers had a great importance for Fed! Like of any FSU production! If some (rare) lenses don't have numbers, we don't know why.
At this point, I don't understand really what we say, but perhaps it's not important
I just point that the first Fed lenses were 1 turn ones. They were numbered in very tiny ciphers too, which cannot be confused with postwar ones.
That said, by the passport showed by Alexey, the "209" seems a serial number, or I don't understand what is written before. It's "objective = lens", no? Or can it really be "batch of objectives?" Or anything else? We have to take that in consideration and think of what it will lead to. For me, at least, rather than thinking of who had written that...
Jacques.
|
| Lenny |
Posted - May 10 2016 : 3:36:02 PM
Maybe a lens serial number wasn't important for Fed at some point. There are even 50/2 lenses without serial number before the war. It seems Fed didn't need the serials and the numbers stamped have a special meaning, for example to help regulation.
Then there is the girl who has to package the cameras and to write the passport and she writes what is given. But it's not a serial number!!! |
| Lenny |
Posted - May 10 2016 : 3:29:41 PM
quote:
Originally posted by geoffox23
Lenny
You are comparing prewar with postwar numbering.
Postwar, lens numbering restarted and seems to have no logical system to tie to bodies.
Cheers
No, I'm not comparing them, but there should be only ONE serial for each lens and not hundrets. To me, this is a kind of batch number, especially when it's not stamped at the lock.
For example, how did KMZ arrange the serial numbers. There could be TWO I-22 with the same serial #5211929, but one is with 'mm' from 1952 and the other is with 'cm' from 1955. It's still possible to separate them. There is only ONE serial for each I-22.
These I-22 are postwar too and are interchangeable on all Zorkis and each has it's own serial and isn't tied to any body. |
| Jacques M. |
Posted - May 10 2016 : 3:05:03 PM
quote:
Originally posted by levonsa
geoffox23 thanks for the help! I'm a little tired to explain to the children about the new post-war numbering lenses. By the way the camera itself will start with the new numbering 210,000.
Jacques. |
| levonsa |
Posted - May 10 2016 : 3:02:50 PM
geoffox23 thanks for the help! I'm a little tired to explain to the children about the new post-war numbering lenses. By the way the camera itself will start with the new numbering 210,000. |
| Jacques M. |
Posted - May 10 2016 : 2:58:37 PM
quote:
Originally posted by geoffox23
Lenny
You are comparing prewar with postwar numbering.
Postwar, lens numbering restarted and seems to have no logical system to tie to bodies.
Cheers
Yes! Thanks. Jacques. |
| geoffox23 |
Posted - May 10 2016 : 2:54:41 PM
Lenny
You are comparing prewar with postwar numbering.
Postwar, lens numbering restarted and seems to have no logical system to tie to bodies.
Cheers |
| Lenny |
Posted - May 10 2016 : 2:46:13 PM
Alexey, thanks for the close up photo of the passport.
But you must admit that the first Industar-10 #209 made from Fed should be from the year 1934, a 1-turn lens. Then at some point in time, when Fed changed the serial system, there should be many other Industar-10 also with #209. Helpful would be a close up photo from the back of the lens with the whole M39 ring shown, and maybe even the number on the lever, but the lens needs to be screwed out off the helicoid. I hope we will know more about this I-10 serial system one day.
Thanks |
| levonsa |
Posted - May 10 2016 : 1:23:31 PM
Strange, but I have always believed that if the passport number of the lens is written such that it lenses all the same room! And not fiction forum participants!
Lenny, you are doing a lot for the order on the site. It's great! But I also like the position of the wise Jacques! You should never jump to conclusions faster, especially when it comes to the Soviet production. We must weigh everything, consult with all together and make a decision!
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1052016_2.jpg
|
| Alfa2 |
Posted - May 10 2016 : 09:41:06 AM
Yes Lenny, but Zorkis which were sold in Poland in 50's are absolutely regular ones and there are not so many of them. Big amount of really interesting cameras was imported to Poland in 90's. On our market there is a lot of e.g. Zorki 4 which were officially imported.
I think I know the guy but I have to ask him about his nick on ebay.
|
| Lenny |
Posted - May 10 2016 : 04:46:23 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Alfa2
Polish market was good place to get some great cameras 15 years ago and earlier.
There is this Polish guy in Scottland, 'vintagefotos' on ebay, and he has many other ebay accounts. He often buys in Poland and then sells it for much more in UK. Poland is definitely a place where many Zorkis were sold in the 1950s.
|
| Lenny |
Posted - May 10 2016 : 04:27:25 AM
quote:
Originally posted by levonsa
FED #210033 + lens №209 - it's attestat! Or a certificate of your too, is of no importance?
Alexey, where is #209 stamped? At the lock or away from the lock?
I think if you have to write a passport, you take the number which you can see. But there might be hundred lenses with #209. Can't be a real serial number. |
| levonsa |
Posted - May 10 2016 : 03:53:19 AM
I thought you only bikers in Poland are not allowed. There is no place for politics, there are the facts! FED #210033 + lens №209 - it's attestat! Or a certificate of your too, is of no importance? |
| Alfa2 |
Posted - May 10 2016 : 03:09:07 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Lenny
That's for sure ... if you search every weekend in your boxes for some forgotten gems. I wonder about the other cameras you have. Poland is still a good place to get some great cameras.
Polish market was good place to get some great cameras 15 years ago and earlier. Now you can buy here boring things like AF digital equipment or manual not branded (i mean branded by Makinon or Albinar) staff.
And I'd like to have such boxes with many forgotten gems but unfortunalely I don't have them. 
By this what levonsa has written the lens number defintely has nothing to do with camera S/N.
|
| levonsa |
Posted - May 09 2016 : 4:48:23 PM
FED #210033 ____ leans #209
FED #210073 ____ leans #3
FED #210193 ____ leans #211
FED #210266 ____ leans #6
FED #210437 ____ leans #26A |
| Lenny |
Posted - May 09 2016 : 3:56:14 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Alfa2
Great, we will have subject to talk about for next 10 years.
That's for sure ... if you search every weekend in your boxes for some forgotten gems. I wonder about the other cameras you have. Poland is still a good place to get some great cameras. |
| Alfa2 |
Posted - May 09 2016 : 10:46:23 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Lenny
There is also a lens number on the lever but the lens needs to be screwd out off the helicoid to see this number.
I have checked the number. It is also 217. This confirms somehow it is not serial as you wrote it isn't. So this is lens without S/N.
quote:
Originally posted by Lenny
This could be a challenge for ussrphoto.com with its thousand members.
Great, we will have subject to talk about for next 10 years.
|
| Lenny |
Posted - May 09 2016 : 07:41:55 AM
There is also a lens number on the lever but the lens needs to be screwd out off the helicoid to see this number.
It would be really interesting to resolve the secret of Fed lens numbers, but thousands of numbers would be needed.
This could be a challenge for ussrphoto.com with its thousand members. |
| Jacques M. |
Posted - May 09 2016 : 05:02:34 AM
I think too it's a batch number (or a control number) rather a real serial number, by the s/n of lenses I know on other Fed 1f.
Jacques. |
| Lenny |
Posted - May 09 2016 : 04:51:25 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Alfa2
What about the lens S/N ? It seems to be OK, FED 210 193 and the lens number 217 - little bit greater.
Seems they started lenses numbering from the beginning with FED 210 000.
What do you think ?
I don't know what Fed did with the lens serial numbers, especially when they are not stamped at the lock. I guess 217 is a kind of batch number only and it didn't get a real serial number. But since they just started with #210000 you could be right. Maybe we will know more about lens serials one day. |
| Alfa2 |
Posted - May 09 2016 : 04:05:21 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Lenny
And #210235 has this stretched stripes vulcanite too, so it match with it.
That's great. I had the same doubts.
What about the lens S/N ? It seems to be OK, FED 210 193 and the lens number 217 - little bit greater.
Seems they started lenses numbering from the beginning with FED 210 000.
What do you think ?
|
| Lenny |
Posted - May 09 2016 : 02:46:28 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Alfa2
Thank you Jacques, thank you Lenny.
I have the FED about 15 years. Unfortunately it is not working now but it was working when I bought it. I think this is only problem with glue which is used for a shutter ribbon to glue it to a roller. Good that the FED is complete and I will fix it during winter when my repairman has less orders than during summer.
I had that problem too on a Zorki-C, the glue wasn't strong enough on the drum. But good you have someone to fix it.
Great you have it for so many years, it's kind of a reference to be original. And #210235 has this stretched stripes vulcanite too, so it match with it. |
| Alfa2 |
Posted - May 09 2016 : 01:46:56 AM
Thank you Jacques, thank you Lenny.
I have the FED about 15 years. Unfortunately it is not working now but it was working when I bought it. I think this is only problem with glue which is used for a shutter ribbon to glue it to a roller. Good that the FED is complete and I will fix it during winter when my repairman has less orders than during summer.
|
| Lenny |
Posted - May 08 2016 : 4:20:49 PM
Sad, it's not working, right?
|
| Lenny |
Posted - May 08 2016 : 4:15:29 PM
Thank you so much Alfa,
what a beauty. How many years do you have it?
|
| Jacques M. |
Posted - May 08 2016 : 2:36:39 PM
Exceptional!
The NKAP vulcanite, and the prewar release button!
One of the very first 1f...
Congrats, Alfa! Jacques. |
| Alfa2 |
Posted - May 08 2016 : 1:28:37 PM
I promised to place photo of my FED. It's number is 210 193. Hmmm, strange camera.
Here they are.
 |
| Lenny |
Posted - May 08 2016 : 10:51:47 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Zoom
It is impossible to consider this delirium:
http://ussrphoto.com/UserContent/352016_IMG_0002.jpg
as a reliable source!
Now I see, it's page 88 from a book.
Which book is it?
The 1200 camera book? |
| Zoom |
Posted - May 08 2016 : 09:34:49 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Lenny
Yoschkar-Ola might be on the way to Berdsk...
I do not know how to comment on it...
Nope.
P. S. It is impossible to consider this delirium:
http://ussrphoto.com/UserContent/352016_IMG_0002.jpg
as a reliable source!
|
| Lenny |
Posted - May 08 2016 : 06:48:46 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Zoom
But I don't understand why the plant No.297 NKV in Yoshkar-Ola emerged in the discussion...
The plant No.296 NKAP was sent to Berdsk by the GKO Order No.681.
Hello Zoom,
02.08.1941 they started building plant #297 Yoschkar-Ola (order #374).
16.09.1941 they ordered the evacuation to Berdsk (order #681) when building the new Yoschkar-Ola plant wasn't finished yet.
Yoschkar-Ola might be on the way to Berdsk and at some point in time the new plant was built. If there is a new plant available it saves much time to store the Fed equipment there.
Then there is the paper Alexey posted. Maybe there are some orders we don't know about yet. |
| Zoom |
Posted - May 07 2016 : 6:59:04 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Lenny
Thanks to Zoom and I found this:
http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/misc/gko-docs.html#n374
You're welcome. But I don't understand why the plant No.297 NKV in Yoshkar-Ola emerged in the discussion...
The plant No.296 NKAP was sent to Berdsk by the GKO Order No.681.
Btw., the text of the GKO Order No.2445 can be found here: http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/misc/gko-2445.html
|
| Lenny |
Posted - May 06 2016 : 08:09:34 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
After a quick glance, I confirm what I have already written:
- brass shutter crates up to s/n c. 115000,
- alloy up to the end of 1e series,
- brass for my personal NKAP Red Flag,
- brass for the 1f series, up to 250000,
- alloy after.
Note that the limits are those I observe on my personal cameras. And certainly, there could be mixed parts, specially after WW2.
Thanks Jacques,
so you check only the bottom plate of the shutter crate, right.
Strange, so my #182393 could be a fake which I doubt, could be postwar which I doubt too, and my #221333 is also a mystery. Both I got very cheap
We need more samples for brass and alloy crates in the serial range #170.000 till #250.000 please. |
| Jacques M. |
Posted - May 06 2016 : 07:34:53 AM
After a quick glance, I confirm what I have already written:
- brass shutter crates up to s/n c. 115000,
- alloy up to the end of 1e series,
- brass for my personal NKAP Red Flag,
- brass for the 1f series, up to 250000,
- alloy after.
Note that the limits are those I observe on my personal cameras. And certainly, there could be mixed parts, specially after WW2. |
| Jacques M. |
Posted - May 06 2016 : 07:16:43 AM
Lenny,
OK,OK.
For me, what is written is conclusive. I am of the generation of paper which could not change their reference books several times a year...
That said, I agree with you at, let us say 90% with what you wrote. Especially about Berdsks which were not made at Berdsk and KMZ which used Fed parts. I had said all that (I was not alone!) in 2013 and earlier. I just wonder what happened so that these ideas have something of official now? Zoom's article? With all the respect due to him, it's not enough. Proofs need documents, and I don't see any. Perhaps I missed something?
Now, my doubts. I had made the same calculation as you and my personal conclusions were just at the opposite. With the declaration of war and the run of the German Army towards the east, it seemed difficult to prepare the evacuation in emergency, while making around 4000 cameras, all that in two months or so. It's why I think Fed could have achieved quickly all the parts for the entire Fed e series, without mounting all of them. The final mounting job for the remaining batch of cameras could have been made at Berdsk's or elsewhere: not difficult when all the needed parts are available.
That said, you may be right too.
In fact, I globally think that we miss original documents to be as affirmative as you are. Paradoxally, the best documented camera in this period is the Fed-Arsenal! For the moment, and as far as I know...
I check my cameras about your brass/alloy question.
|
| Alfa2 |
Posted - May 06 2016 : 03:53:15 AM
I will try to search for it on the coming weekend.
Regarding vulcanite there are some rules but there are exceptions too. I saw original vulcanite of FED NKVD but not black, the colour was like coffe with milk. We had discussion about it with my colleague - art historian who is really interesred in old FEDs.
|
| Lenny |
Posted - May 05 2016 : 6:07:50 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Alfa2
Sorry, I have written this not exactely clear. I meant I should find my camera and place a photo here. But problem for me is to find the camera because I don't know where I have it. I haven't seen the FED for many years.
Don't say sorry Alfa, search for it tomorrow and everything is fine. I want to see it |
| levonsa |
Posted - May 05 2016 : 5:47:38 PM
Jacques, do not worry! I'll try to answer your questions on my website. The article will be in Russian, but I think if Vlad and our other guys will help all to translate it into English. |
