Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Members | Search | FAQ

 All Forums
 General Discussion
 Collectors and Users Open Forum
 Sonnar lens 58 f1.5

Note: You must be registered in order to post a reply.
To register, click here. Registration is FREE!

Screensize:
UserName:
Password:
Antispam question: What letter is used to denote aperture on a lens?
Answer:
Format Mode:
Format: BoldItalicizedUnderlineStrikethrough Align LeftCenteredAlign Right Horizontal Rule Insert HyperlinkInsert EmailInsert Image Insert CodeInsert QuoteInsert List
   
Message:

* HTML is OFF
* Forum Code is ON

New! Upload Image

Smilies
Smile [:)] Big Smile [:D] Cool [8D] Blush [:I]
Tongue [:P] Evil [):] Wink [;)] Clown [:o)]
Black Eye [B)] Eight Ball [8] Frown [:(] Shy [8)]
Shocked [:0] Angry [:(!] Dead [xx(] Sleepy [|)]
Kisses [:X] Approve [^] Disapprove [V] Question [?]

 
Check here to subscribe to this topic.
   

T O P I C    R E V I E W
ricale Posted - Mar 11 2013 : 08:27:27 AM
On ebay,2 different sellers, a Sonnar(?)lens 58 f1.5 in Leica screw mount is for sale.
Does someone about this kind of lens?
If it's a fake, it's a very strange fake.
50   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Jacques M. Posted - Nov 26 2017 : 05:58:32 AM
Another photo, showing the lack of coupling system.
Note that this lens is perfect on my Sony A7, so correctly mounted.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/26112017_Sonnar 1548365 4.jpg
(photo of the seller)

Amitiés. Jacques.

Jacques M. Posted - Nov 26 2017 : 05:55:50 AM
Another exotic Sonnar here, written Sonnar 1,5 5cm Nr. 1548365 on the beauty ring. This beauty ring was later painted in black. It has the same body as the s/n 1211770. LTM 39mm, but no coupling system: certainly, it was mounted from spare parts.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/26112017_Sonnar 1548365 1.jpg
(photo of the seller).

Jacques M. Posted - Sep 19 2017 : 03:30:47 AM

Thanks, Altix, for your explanations.
As for the LTM 1,5/5,8cm, I can say that the first I have got is perfectly adjusted for Leica: I have made a roll with it and two photos are in the topic. Perfect. I don't know for the other ones.

Concerning the Hexanon, Luiz, thanks for the information. But it's too new and too expensive for me...

Amitiés. Jacques.
Luiz Paracampo Posted - Sep 18 2017 : 8:19:42 PM
Dear Alti,
Unless a new thread should be appied on Contax (or Kiev) it will be impossible focus correctly

and a new discover Nikon lenthread are the same as Contax Kiev.
see http://zeisscamera.com/articles_cnrfdr.shtml

Regards
LP
Luiz Paracampo Posted - Sep 18 2017 : 8:14:51 PM
how about na Hexanon 60mm 1.2 ?
https://www.ebay.com/p/Konica-Hexanon-60mm-F-1-2-L-Mount-Type-Leica-L39/1524543140
Regards
LP
altix Posted - Sep 18 2017 : 07:59:28 AM
Dear Jacques, the beauty ring mimics the standard one. It is written there "Sonnar 1:1,5 f=5cm Carl Zeiss Jena Nr . 3144117". The use of 3 in the beginning of the serial was probably dictated by imitation reasons. Of course the focal length is not 5 but rather 6 cm.

The filter ring does not fits for 40.5 mm screw-in filters or sun shades. Probably the additional ring served as some kind of adapter for 40mm slip-on filters. By the way, such filters and caps are more typical for post war West Germany (BW, Lifa, Schneider). Can it be the indication that the faked Sonnars were produced in West Germany?

One more observation - this Sonnar is perfectly adjusted for use with Contax camera. I am not sure if this is true for Leica 58 f1.5 Sonnars.

altix
Jacques M. Posted - Sep 16 2017 : 10:48:56 AM

Thanks, Altix. So, another exotic Sonnar, in Contax mount, that time... The detachable ring is rare and interesting too... What was it for, exactly? And what does the beauty ring read?

Amitiés. Jacques.
altix Posted - Sep 16 2017 : 06:11:47 AM
Another fake Carl Zeiss Jena Sonnar in Contax mount. It came with the additional detachable ring.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1692017_2.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1692017_3.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1692017_4.JPG

Jacques M. Posted - Feb 12 2017 : 11:39:51 AM

Back to this topic always about the 1,5/5,8cm Sonnar s/n 1407059.
Altix dismounted it and made the scheme of the lens:


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1222017_Sonnar1407059.jpg

The different parts of the lens are mounted from the front towards the rear. Seeing the complexity (and the number of these lenses: certainly around 500), probably the work was made by Zeiss workers who had "found" spare parts...

Thanks, Altix.

Jacques.

Jacques M. Posted - Aug 30 2016 : 08:17:56 AM

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/3082016_DSCF2530.JPG

Sorry for the dust...
The three Sonnnars, side by side:


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/3082016_DSCF2529.JPG

From left to right: the original 1,5/5cm 2811301 and the "exotic" 1407059 and 1407293.
Note that this "new" 1407059 has too the six slot screw at the back.

If you have questions... I become a specialist about these non Zeiss Sonnars!

Amitiés. Jacques.



Jacques M. Posted - Aug 30 2016 : 08:06:34 AM

Another exotic 1,5/5,8cm Sonnar here:


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/3082016_DSCF2527.JPG

It was found on a 1949 Leiva IIIc "sharkskin". The seller could not tell me when the lens was put on the body.

This lens is coated (like the s/n 1407293). But it has a red "T" mark on the beauty ring. And the same 40,5mm screw mount for filters as the Zeiss original 1,5/5cm Sonnar...

Jacques M. Posted - Feb 15 2014 : 07:43:39 AM

Yes, Ulrich, I had seen it.
It was posted by Marc James Small, from the Zeiss Society.

Wie geht's?

Jacques.
uwittehh Posted - Feb 15 2014 : 07:32:51 AM
Interesting lens. I have found this on the web: http://leica-users.org/v24/msg01511.html I don't know if you know that posting already. The guy there has a lens with serial number 1498512.

Ulrich

http://fotos.cconin.de
Jacques M. Posted - Feb 15 2014 : 03:41:34 AM

I have just done it. Thanks.

Considering the weight, sure the barrels are not made in alloy...
Really, I doubt that Sonnarex and 1.5/5.8 Sonnars were made by the same... Perhaps the glass?

Your lens seems not to be coated?

Jacques.
Jacques M. Posted - Feb 14 2014 : 3:28:08 PM

Absolutely beautiful!
And "für Leica": the first time I see that...

What means - 0 - on the beauty ring??

What is the weight of your lens? Mine are 187g (sloped rangefinder) and 183g (screw one). It can be important to know what the inside is made of...

Jacques.
bezdan Posted - Feb 14 2014 : 3:10:05 PM
Hope it works now


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1422014_Sonnarex.jpg





http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1422014_4.jpg

Jacques M. Posted - Feb 14 2014 : 3:06:13 PM

So, my number is wrong: 1948512 and not 1498512.
Thanks.
Somebody of the Zeiss Society...

Jacques.
Jacques M. Posted - Feb 14 2014 : 2:33:59 PM

Thanks, Guido . But I fear I am quite stupid concerning all that...
bezdan: sure of the number? 194xxxx and not 149xxxx? The only other s/n number concerning this ultra rare lens is 1498512.

Thanks. Amitiés. Jacques.
Guido Posted - Feb 14 2014 : 12:59:20 PM
Hello

@Jacques M.: You can look at the pictures by modifying the file names manualy. For example:

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1422014_FB_Sonanrex_%20(1%20of%2013).jpg

should work when copyed to the address line of your browser (exchange all spaces with "%20").

@bezdan: It's a good idea to not use spaces in the file names when uploading.

Best wishes - Guido
bezdan Posted - Feb 14 2014 : 12:05:19 PM
Dear Jacques ;)

thank you very much for your kind welcome :). I ll try to post it again. Yes it is LTM, its sn is: 1948510 ;) and it has very fine gravure.

I am having some problems with jpeg upload.

I ll try again

Best regards
Jacques M. Posted - Feb 14 2014 : 11:56:16 AM

Hello,

Happy to see that it is a connoisseur of Sonnars who joins us... Welcome!

I think by my datas that there were probably 500 of these lenses made (s/n from 1407002 to 1407485). I have two of them. They are the same, except for two features:
- the rangefinder barrel (screw or slope)
- the front lens (coating or not).

The Sonnarex are much more rare. I only knew one till now. What is the serial number of yours? Is it a LTM? Hope you will use it!

Amitiés. Jacques.
PS: it seems your files don't work.
Jacques M. Posted - Jan 15 2014 : 07:47:59 AM

Thanks Luiz. I have already seen it.
If somebody wants my listing of these odd 1.5/5cm, or /5,8cm, or /6cm: please tell. I can send that by PM.

I have just discovered that my last 1.5/5.8cm (the one with the "slopy" rangefinder) is single coated in purple and blue. This is not said in the literature I have read about these lenses. The mystery becomes darker...

Amitiés. Jacques.
Luiz Paracampo Posted - Jan 13 2014 : 12:23:42 PM
No data on numbers could be both the mysterous 14XXXXXXX or the 21XXXXXXXX but see another thread:

http://www.pigment-print.com/Fotografica/CJZ%20Sonnar%2060%20f1.5%20LTM/target1.html
Regards
LP
Jacques M. Posted - Jan 12 2014 : 3:42:29 PM

No.
But I seen somewhere lately such a lens with these two big ears.
I try to find it again.

No idea of the serial number of the lens, Luiz? It would be interesting to compare with Thiele's listing.

Amitiés. Jacques.
Luiz Paracampo Posted - Jan 12 2014 : 2:21:23 PM
Has someone see it? I never had a notivce of another.
http://www.novacon.com.br/odditycameras/zeissikon2.htm

Regards LP
Jacques M. Posted - Jan 11 2014 : 08:41:07 AM

I am always with the exotic Sonnars... Glass probably made prewar by Zeiss, mounted postwar by whom?

Here, side by side, my former one (the one which I used to make the photos) and the new one. Exactly the same, except for the rangefinder ring: slopy on the new one.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1112014_DSCF1597.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1112014_DSCF1598.JPG

Amitiés. Jacques.

S.H. Posted - Sep 20 2013 : 02:45:56 AM
Thanks for the pictures. It seems it is a good lens. I found mine also has good contrast, even if it is uncoated. But it will be very hard to adapt it on a Leica/contax body, except at infinity.
Jacques M. Posted - Sep 19 2013 : 09:32:12 AM

Another one, this time at the limits of the lens (more or less 1,20m without foot, wide open, 1/500th. Cloudy weather). Always without correction when scanning.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1992013_CCI19092013_00001.bmp

With the limits noted in the precedent post concerning focussing, I am perplex...

Jacques.
Jacques M. Posted - Sep 19 2013 : 09:11:24 AM

I have tried the two lenses on my Leica IIIg (on a Leica only because they are both m marked).

The big coated 1,5/5cm does not be screwed easily on the camera (the same on a Fed) as if the metallurgy was imperfect. In fact, I don't feel the point where I must stop screwing. I made only three photos with this lens: not sharp, not neat, as if the focus was incorrect. I will have it regulated if I want to use it...

The 1,5/5,8cm has no problem, except between 1,20m and 1 meter which is the limit. In fact, the rangefinder cannot follow the inner movement of the lens below 1,20m because of its shape.
Here is a photo with this lens:


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1992013_CCI19092013_00000.bmp

Really, I am much surprised by the contrasts given by this non coated lens. The general looking is the one of my best Sonnars...

Jacques.

Jacques M. Posted - Sep 05 2013 : 11:19:48 AM
I have just tried the two lenses.

The 1,5/5,8cm, with screwed RF, is perfect on my M2 (with LTM/M bag). On the IIIg too.

The 1,5/5cm, with a sloped RF, is curious on the M2: infinity at 5m, good at 1,20m (the last distance where the tip is in contact), nothing below (lens graduated down to 0,80m).
On my IIIg, the infinity is fine. All is OK down to 1,05, then the tip unhangs.

Certainly, a problem of compatibility with the ring for the M2. And a question of shape of tip/shape of RF for the IIIg below 1,05m...

All that will be confirmed with a film inside the IIIg.

I had seen the 1,5/6cm on eBay. Interesting (not concerning the price!).
S.H. Posted - Sep 05 2013 : 10:30:40 AM
Thanks! I will think about it if I need it.

In the meantime, I just came across this on ebay :


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/592013_front.jpg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/592013_side.jpg

see it here : http://www.ebay.com/itm/EX-Carl-Zeiss-Jena-Sonnar-60mm-f-1-5-original-Leica-LTM-mount-60-f1-5-/310737136790

Sloped cam too... and also, outrageous price at USD 2,370 . Note, this one close to f/11 only.





Jacques M. Posted - Sep 05 2013 : 10:19:20 AM
My big coated 1,5/5cm has a slope on the RF cam too. But officially, it's a 5cm, not a 5,8 or 6cm...
Ask if you want photos of this cam. If you want measures, it would be easier for me by pm in French!
S.H. Posted - Sep 05 2013 : 09:56:49 AM
The Zorki RF has two adjustment points : infinity and 1 meter. My lens is good at infinity, so if I calibrate the Zorki RF at 1 meter it will be false everywhere else. I would have to add some parameter in here, such as machining the RF cam of the adapter : look at the rear of the 5.8cm / 6cm lenses, some do not have a simple cylindrical cam but there is a slope here as you pointed it yourself. Here is your picture seen earlier in the thread:




I may be wrong, but such a lens could be done with a "standard" helical fit for a true 5cm Sonnar, the slope in the cam taking into account the difference in focal length.

So in my case with a contax mount I have some theoretical options :
- modify the RF cam of an existing Contax => Leica adapter or jupiter mount (if it fits) : very hard to do properly, I'm not in a Zeiss Factory
- get a barrel from a junked 5.8cm lens, the optical module can perhaps be swapped
- make a custom helical and cam (impossible, costs for calculations and production would be astronomically costly)
- modify a the RF of a specific body, but I do not know if it is really possible. there are always parameters to tune up in RF mechanisms, but here the focal length is clearly different so it is probably not enough.

For the last point, I must think about it with the various repairmen I know. Anyway, it is a fun little problem to think about :)
Jacques M. Posted - Sep 05 2013 : 08:10:16 AM

On RFF, you had said that perhaps you would try with a Zorki you have.
Always on that track?

I will try my two odd 1,5 Sonnar lenses (the huge 5cm and the 5,8cm) on my M2 in a while. Impossible for the moment. It could give an information for the Zorki...
S.H. Posted - Sep 05 2013 : 08:01:19 AM
The repairman took a look at it with a collimator and a Contax III, it is well calibrated at infinity. Image quality is good. On a M9 + adapter, of course, close focus is wrong. I think this is the same optical elements than the lens shown in Kuc's book : in this book it is also said that the rangefinder is not to be used at close distance.

I'll try to use a camera body with it, but I don't know if I will find a way to tune the RF at close distance... on a Contax/Kiev I would need a new helical, on a Leica the RF adjustments are probably not sufficient.
dennnis Posted - Sep 05 2013 : 05:19:25 AM
I also find a number of camera lens on a website!!
http://is.gd/BQAo64

some are good and cheap!!

Hi!! Welcome!!
Jacques M. Posted - Sep 04 2013 : 4:24:48 PM

I should go more often on RFforum...
It is right to remember that a genuine 1,5/6cm was made by Zeiss, probably as a trial, for the Contax I. It is noted by Kuc in his first book.

I think that what the seller told you is certainly the truth or a good part of it. It would explain the variability of the mounts, of the markings, and even the coating of some lenses...

Most interesting...
Jacques.

S.H. Posted - Sep 04 2013 : 12:37:00 PM
Well, I can already tell you that on my M8 + Contax => Leica adapter, it does not focus right under 6 or 8 meters. Infinity at f8 is usable.

The markings look right to me and the s/n could be from around 1949/50. Plausible.

If your 1.5 / 5cm is bigger compared to a regular lens, this is probably another one.
Jacques M. Posted - Sep 04 2013 : 12:13:46 PM
Exciting! Thanks, S.H.!
Your lens could be a true 1,5/6cm rather than a 5,8cm: I never saw such a serial number in the 5,8cm lenses.

Of course, the Thiele does not know this lens. Not surprising. But no doubt the inscriptions on the beauty ring are original.

Please, tell us what your specialist will say. You will try it on a Contax, I suppose?

Finally, I wonder if my huge 1,5/5cm would not be a 6cm...

Amitiés. Jacques.
S.H. Posted - Sep 04 2013 : 10:08:15 AM
Hello,

I posted this on the rangefinderforum, but I think some of the collectors here could be interested also. It is an interesting story about east German black market lenses. Please forgive me if you already have read this elsewhere.

I recently bought a strange light alloy uncoated Sonnar 1.5 5cm in Contax mount. This lens is from a German collector who, in the 1970s, checked the focal length because it was bigger than a normal Sonnar. It was found it is close to 60mm, even if it is marked as a 5cm lens. It has also six spanner slots in the rear. It really looks like the 5.8cm ltm lenses...
Here are some pictures of it, compared to a wartime German Sonnar.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/492013_sonnar_60_barrel_lo.jpg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/492013_sonnar60_mount.jpg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/492013_sonnar60_number.jpg

A close up shot of the aperture mechanism:

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/492013_sonnar60_internal.jpg

I asked the seller about this lens, he replied :
quote:
In 1954-55 I bought a Kiev-camera and this lens in a then still private shop for photo-articles in Halle Saale (East-Germany) Kiev-cameras were then assembled illegally by employees of Zeiss-Jena in the Saalfeld-facctory from left-over parts from the years 1947-48 and sold on the black market or to some private shops with Sonnars 2,0 of original production smuggled out. The 1,5 lens I additional bought then was made of left-over wartimes-production of Sonnar 6cm lens blocks, made for bomb-sights originally, f-stops mechanics and blades added later. Black market only, too. It was a quite big, illegal "enterprise", later with real good mechanical parts and engraving, some with coated front lenses. Ended in the mid-fifties with many prison-sentences.


The 5.8cm ltm sonnar lenses probably come from this black market operation too. Not really a "fake" product, because produced by Zeiss employees with Zeiss parts, but rather a black market / illegal product.

Tomorrow I will show it to an experienced repairman : I'd like to use this lens but as it is, it does not really work. With a focal length close to 60mm, the helical pitch in the Contax mount or in my adapters is wrong.
Jacques M. Posted - May 19 2013 : 2:32:29 PM
About this 1407xxx series, I have 22 lenses in my data, from 1407018 to 1407485. So probably 500 of them were made.
Thanks, Luiz, for the first serial number.

Jacques.
Luiz Paracampo Posted - May 19 2013 : 1:41:51 PM
and a pinhole lens for Contax Rangefinder!
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/17156192_zeiss-ikon-contax-pinhole-lens-serno-c1950
Luiz Paracampo Posted - May 19 2013 : 1:28:14 PM
and more about 60mm Sonnar
http://www.pigment-print.com/Fotografica/CJZ%20Sonnar%2060%20f1.5%20LTM/target1.html
Luiz Paracampo Posted - May 19 2013 : 1:16:04 PM
one more Sonnar 14XXXXX in Leica M9!
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1952013_m9sonnar.png

Jacques M. Posted - May 17 2013 : 07:33:04 AM
Thanks, Stephane.

About the Sonnar with diamond pattern, I forgot to give the serial number: 1979274. With the engraving "Carl Zeiss" (without Jena), the focal of 50mm (and not 5cm), and the coating, it could be a post-war Sonnar made in the West.
But the mount puzzles me. It's not totally functional: the rear ring (which is screwed on the camera) is too loose so the lens cannot be properly used. As if it were a prototype or a trial not really finished. But do postwar Sonnars, made by the factory, really exist in LTM mount? I don't know.

I wait for your photo.

As for the other Sonnar, the 1,5/5cm, it looks like this one:
http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=261032404520&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

except for the engraving on the beauty ring: mine only has "Sonnar" (and except for the price too!). Both are in the same serial number range. And both have this curious reversed diaphragm ring...

Amitiés. Jacques.
stephanvdz Posted - May 17 2013 : 04:40:01 AM
concernant le dernier sonnar, celui avec des gravures en diamant, il existe quelques exemplaires avec ce type de gravures et un lettrage tout à fait bizarre (pas la font habituelle)... je possède un 5cm comme cela (photo suit) et j'ai vu sur ebay un 8,5cm comparable. ce sont toutes les deux des optiques T pour LTM. Les montures sont Zeiss, seules les gravures et inscriptions sur le corps sont bizarres.

Stephan
Jacques M. Posted - May 16 2013 : 3:26:00 PM

Two more Sonnars here, always LTM.
First, A 1,5/5cm which seems a cousin of my 1,5/5,8cm. Same 6 slot nut on the rear and an aluminium mount. But this one is coated and it is bigger than the 5,8cm (!).
A picture:


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1652013_Sonnars 1,5-5cm and 1,5-50mm 001.jpg

The second one is more mysterious. It could be a genuine Carl Zeiss Sonnar, but it has a LTM mount, a strange crossed pattern on two bags and it is heavier than any of the Sonnars I have here (224g). Perhaps a poswar one? A picture again:


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1652013_Sonnars 1,5-5cm and 1,5-50mm 002.jpg

Now, a third picture. They are both 1,5/50mm lenses, so I am perplex when I see them side by side...


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1652013_Sonnars 1,5-5cm and 1,5-50mm 003.jpg

If you have ideas...
Amitiés. Jacques.

Jacques M. Posted - Mar 22 2013 : 09:10:02 AM
Two last pictures about odd details:

There are two complete diaphragm scales, at the opposite...
These scales stop at f11, like on early 1,5/5cm CZJ Sonnars.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2232013_Sonnar 1.5-5.8 005.jpg

And the distance scale covers 3/4 of turn, unlike the CZJ Sonnars and ZK (half turn). Except one of my Sonnars: 3/4 too!
Here, "m" for meter on the scale ("M" on ZK and Jup)


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2232013_Sonnar 1.5-5.8 006.jpg

Don't hesitate to put questions if necessary...

Amitiés. Jacques.
Jacques M. Posted - Mar 22 2013 : 09:00:24 AM

Lens module dismounted:


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2232013_Sonnar 1.5-5.8 004.jpg

The back part largely differs from CZJ Sonnar/ZK's ones with that 6 slot nut to maintain the rear element.

Just the same for the front lens which can be directly dismounted on unscrewing the beauty ring:


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2232013_Sonnar 1.5-5.8 003.jpg


Much more easy to clean a lens!
Jacques M. Posted - Mar 22 2013 : 08:46:48 AM

Well, the sonnar is here.
Really in good condition: no fungus or haze, just a very small mark on the front lens. One of the best puchase I ever made...



http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2232013_Sonnar 1.5-5.8 002.jpg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2232013_Sonnar 1.5-5.8 001.jpg

Sonnar 1,5/5,8cm and 1948 1,5/5cm ZK side by side: of course, the Sonnar is longer, but both have exactly the same maxi diameter: 48mm.

USSRPhoto.com Forums © USSRPhoto.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000
Google