| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| okynek |
Posted - Sep 22 2014 : 10:51:22 AM
quote:
Latest information suggests that the FED-Sport was designed and made by Igor Bajanov. About 70 units were made.
So was it made in 1980s or in 1930s? |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Zoom |
Posted - Apr 26 2020 : 5:45:35 PM
quote:
You forget the SCNOO (1935) and the MOOLY (1938).
I did not forget the SCNOO and the MOOLY. This winders had completely different design, especially the MOOLY. Of course no details are visible, but here design is close only to Leicavit (SYOOM), with another lever, of course.
But all this notes is completely unimportant. In this camera everything is screaming about a fake. |
| Jacques M. |
Posted - Apr 26 2020 : 2:39:40 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Zoom
quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
The only question I had in mind is: is it impossible that some of these cameras were made in the forties, as original ones ?
Btw, the Leicavit rapid winder (telegram code SYOOM) was introduced in 1951...
You forget the SCNOO (1935) and the MOOLY (1938). |
| Zoom |
Posted - Apr 26 2020 : 11:48:07 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
The only question I had in mind is: is it impossible that some of these cameras were made in the forties, as original ones ?
Btw, the Leicavit rapid winder (telegram code SYOOM) was introduced in 1951... |
| Niko80 |
Posted - Apr 26 2020 : 06:18:47 AM
Jacques, I would not say it's impossible, neither do I think this discussion is unnecessary - on the contrary!
But in the end it is impossible to disprove a similar camera might have been manufactured in the 40s, this leads us nowhere. We need to collect and weight evidence to evaluate the probability of different hypotheses. And currently I see little pointing towards an origin of these cameras in the 40s-50s, neither an association with a soviet factory.
I will come up with a general thread on how we could do proper research on these sort of enigmatic cameras and on what we can and cannot do to bring some light into their origins. It boils down to asking the right questions... |
| Guido |
Posted - Apr 25 2020 : 3:49:49 PM
Bonsoir Jacques
With the FED-Sport and the Zorki Yura I'm sure, only the FED "Siberia" could make some sense to me. But I don't think it's authentic. Or most of them are fakes. After all ... no, all of them must be fakes because of missing original informations.
Best wishes - Guido
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| Jacques M. |
Posted - Apr 25 2020 : 3:05:59 PM
I agree with Guido, with Zoom and with Niko80. May I?...
All the Fed-Sport we have seen are not "original" ones, made in the 1946/47 years. Including, of course, I insist, my 0044 which has been in my collection since more than 12 years now.
The only question I had in mind is: is it impossible that some of these cameras were made in the forties, as original ones ? Same question about the Fed Sibir/Paulus, and the Zorki "Yura", not necessarily golden in the fifties?
Really, I am not completely sure. But for me this thread is closed.
Jacques. |
| Niko80 |
Posted - Apr 25 2020 : 08:37:44 AM
I agree with Zoom and I'm increasingly wary of those special and comemmorative cameras produced in few samples with notable variations and without contemporary documentation. We should not be naive.
The Minsk museum page also lists a FED Sibir "made in Berdsk in 1946" (since when?)
and a golden Zorki "Yura" (come on...)
A lot of these fakes are very well made but as said - we should treat everything without proper documentation (and hearsay or opinions on the net do not count as such) as doubtful. Especially all the stuff that "surfaced" after the fall of the iron curtain but was never heard of or provenly owned by anyone before that time. |
| Zoom |
Posted - Apr 25 2020 : 04:39:20 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
Do you mean there was no original Fed Sport in the 1946/47 years made by KMZ with Fed parts?
This is a fake, several cameras were made (presumably in Ukraine in the 90s) specifically to deceive collectors. The fake is visible immediately, it's strange that there are doubts about it.
quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
And who is Igor Bajanov?
May be: Igor Anatol'evich Bazhan (Èãîðü Àíàòîëüåâè÷ Áàæàí), 28.08.1957 (Berdyansk) -- 02.08.2018 (Moscow); archaelogist; was the Chief Editor of "Photo Courier" newspaper (in 1998--2005 years)...
The "Photo Courier" newspaper archive is there: http://kamepa.ru/pages/courier.htm
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| Jacques M. |
Posted - Apr 24 2020 : 2:15:28 PM
Many thanks, Zoom.
Do you mean there was no original Fed Sport in the 1946/47 years made by KMZ with Fed parts?
And who is Igor Bajanov?
That said, I have in hand my own Fed-Sport, and as already said, I think it's not an original camera.
Jacques.
|
| Zoom |
Posted - Apr 24 2020 : 12:23:40 PM
It's a fake.
quote:
Originally posted by Guido
... So the 90th are very possible.
I'm sure KMZ has nothing to do with that cameras...
I agree with you. |
| Jacques M. |
Posted - Apr 22 2020 : 08:12:20 AM
Always on Novacon, some other photos of the 024 and 025 Fed Sport coming from the Minsk Museum:
http://www.novacon.com.br/odditycameras/minskfoto4.htm
At first sight, it seems that the coupling mechanism is the same as mine. The engraving on the baseplate is a bit different in size, for "Fed-Sport". |
| Niko80 |
Posted - Apr 22 2020 : 07:14:40 AM
Ah, I understand now, Jacques!
Still I do not believe the cameras shown on novacon were made by KMZ in '46.
Guido pointed out the engravings are atypical for KMZ and the work on the base plate looks too crude for a factory job. Look at the cutout for the rewind trigger in the 2nd last photo, camera #0045. Basically everything they put on the baseplate is very poorly made. No way this is original and made with factory tools. The last photo looks way better. Is this the same camera as the one with the sport finder (4th from bottom)? Again the rewind trigger looks very crude and unfinished.
Even the earliest FED1 made by a youth labor commune without previous experience in camera manufacture are extremely well made in comparison. KMZ should have been able to do much better, regardless of the war. Plus if the situation was really dire and rapid rewind cameras were needed quickly why bother with the engraving of the top plate? Totally unnecessary.
Of course the whole story is not completely impossible but in my opinion (as a layman, no doubt) very unlikely.
Evidence for late 20th century fake:
.)poor quality
.)collector-orientated and atypical engravings
.)very few and consecutive numbers with notable differences between models
.)no known mention in literature
I hope Luiz can add some information. |
| Jacques M. |
Posted - Apr 22 2020 : 05:46:23 AM
Thanks, Guido and Christian.
For me, my # 0044 is a "modern" Fed, probably made in the eighties, specially for collectors. I have absolutely no doubt. Just a mechanical detail: the coupling system seems very fragile. I doubt that the new shape of the slot, really enlarged, could resist to tens of rolls: the cocking forces seem too important...
The main question is perhaps "were there original Fed Sport made in the 1946/47 years", like Novacon tells it? If yes, the "modern" items would be fakes. If not, they are original cameras only made for collectors.
On Novacon site, there are the #024 and 025, which could be original. But we don't have any detailed photos of them. Hence my hope that Luiz is not too far... And who is this "Igor Bajanov" who would have made these original Sports?
Amitiés. Jacques. |
| Niko80 |
Posted - Apr 21 2020 : 7:00:14 PM
Guido, I agree but I wonder what is your definition of fake and modification?
I think we can safely say that the sport is a modified FED1/S but doesn't that make the model "FED sport" a fake then? As you said most likely neither KMZ nor FED made this camera but someone in the 80s or 90s.
In my opinion adding the baseplate with the rewind functionality is a modification but relabeling the camera as "FED sport" with the KMZ logo, hammer and sickle makes it a fake.
It would be interesting if the rapid wind mechanism really works with film or if it's something like the "FED Stemar" that looks like the leica counterpart but isn't fully functional. Given the sometimes crude look I'd guess it was really made to work but still I am sure this was done for the collectors market and not for actual photography. Why go through the trouble to modify a bunch of relatively rare 50 year old and hopelessly outdated cameras (and ruin their original engraving) when you could easily have much better functionality with a cheap modern one? Makes no sense unless you want to create a collectors item. |
| Guido |
Posted - Apr 21 2020 : 6:26:50 PM
Bonjour Jacques and hello everybody else
I would say I was an expert for FED-Zorki fakes years ago but the FED-Sport is not a fake but a modification.
There are so much things that don't fit with this camera. First they are made from FED-S but there are also models with only 1/500. Maybe fakes of the modifications? Why not ... a seller on eBay ask 3500 Euro for a FED-Sport copy. Fully unrealistic ...
Some points that speaks for a modification:
- the logo is much too big
- the tomb is too large
- there is no star over the logo (like on the FS-2 for example)
- all KMZ products until 1949 had a year with the logo
- early KMZ products before 1948 had only a "N" for s/n, later "N°"
- KMZ used to use five digit s/n before 1954 for some series (Zorki-3)
- the Leicavit copies are made very well but I've seen many workshops with outstanding potential (see the Zorki-75 or so)
- see the last picture from Jacques: it's a very bad modification, hand made for sure, a sign that at this point the one who build the camera has lost the interest of his work, because the parts should be fully black
After all it's a modification made in the 80th or even the 90th. As far as I know there is no earlier mention in the litarure I know, even not in THE Princelle ... So the 90th are very possible.
I'm sure KMZ has nothing to do with that cameras and also FED is not really involved beside the cameras are made by them.
I would be interested in other opinions about this.
Best wishes - Guido
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| Niko80 |
Posted - Apr 21 2020 : 4:48:36 PM
Well, I'd say there is something between "homemade" and "genuine factory made".
Look at the FED "Stemar", extremely well made, at least aesthetically, but still clearly a fake. Surely there were people capable of manufacturing something like that in the late 20th century.
I am certainly no expert on that topic but personally I do not like the engravings of the FED Sport at all. It just doesn't feel right for the 40s / early 50s, not to speak of that huge hammer and sickle. In my opinion this looks way more like something out of the 70s - 90s. Especially the font of "sport". All in all the logo, letters and numbers do not fit together well. It's not a pleasant layout. At least it would not have been considered such around 1945.
Furthermore at least in the pictures the corners of the top plate look like it has been ground down to remove the original engraving. And the base plate looks a bit too crude for a factory job as well. But I am sure you can tell much better with the actual camera in hand. |
| Jacques M. |
Posted - Apr 20 2020 : 09:48:15 AM
And the system of coupling:
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/2042020_IMG_0081.JPG
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/2042020_IMG_0082.JPG
Note that the axle for the spool seems an original Fed one. The slot was just enlarged to fit the winder. And it works correctly, at least without film!...
It's possible that a very small batch was delivered after WW2 (with a single "0" as prefix for the s/n). But considering my own camera (with a double "0"), it seems really too new...
Any information about Igor Bajanov?
Luiz, could you help? Please!
Amitiés. Jacques.
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| Jacques M. |
Posted - Apr 20 2020 : 09:32:15 AM
The two engravings, on the cover and on the rapid winder:
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/2042020_IMG_3807.JPG
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/2042020_IMG_0084.JPG
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| Jacques M. |
Posted - Apr 20 2020 : 09:28:26 AM
I have just seen that article, on Novacon site:
http://www.novacon.com.br/odditycameras/fedsport.htm
I understand now why the question is (perhaps?) not completely closed. We know that the period 1945/52 was specially "imaginative" for KMZ, so, why not a Fed Sport in 1945/46, just before the Fed KMZ?
Until now, I had always thought that this camera was "home made". But the mechanism of the rapid winder cannot have been manufactured on the corner of a table. There are several types of "rapid winders" for Leicas, but as far as I know, they don't look like the Fed's one. So, could it be originally made by KMZ?
Some photos of my s/n 0044, to compare with Novacon's ones:
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/2042020_IMG_0073.JPG
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/2042020_IMG_0078.JPG
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| Jacques M. |
Posted - Sep 22 2014 : 2:37:58 PM
Difficult to say. Perhaps a very small batch of 1d or 1e in the forties.
But more certainly a camera "created" in the eighties for collectors.
I have a Fed Sport from a Fed S with the 1/1000th and a 2/50mm lens, perfectly working. Not bad...
Amitiés. Jacques. |
