| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| uwittehh |
Posted - Mar 02 2008 : 5:16:03 PM
Hello everybody,
I am Ulrich from Germany, a collector of russian cameras since some years (but using them since decades, my first one was a Revueflex B).
Some of you may know me from the Zenit-yahoo-group (Hello Juhani and Guido :-).
In the last weeks I've had mail contact to Vlad, I have told him of my early FED 1b from 1935 that has a brown(!) leatherette. It looks real, not only heavy used, because the whole camera looks as it is new.
It woulb be nice if anyone can what kind of FED this is, I post some URLs to the pictures:
Here is the brown FED 1b from 1935, serial 13743 (with the depression under the speed knob):
compared to a FED 1b with serial 23537:
The vulcanite of the early one is complete different to the later one (and they are only 10.000 numbers away), the early one lokks brown, it is much more finer and feels smoother. The camera itself is very well made, cocks very smooth and releases quiet (compared to a Leica from 1934 it is better!).
Maybe someone knows anything about this kind of early FED? Why is the vulcanite so different? The one with serial 23xxx doesn't cock so smooth and looks a bit more rough.
Best regards
Ulrich
Btw. take a look at my collection under
http://fotos.cconin.de/kameras
I also sell some duplicates of my collection and am able to repair them :-)
http://fotos.cconin.de |
| 28 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Jacques M. |
Posted - Mar 16 2008 : 08:32:08 AM
Hi Bill.
My guess too was that they were lacking machines to produce these clips.
A fair number of 1a were equipped with clips afterwards which is regrettable for us!
Thanks for the number of your Fed 1b of which I remember.
Amitiés. Jacques.
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| nightphoto |
Posted - Mar 15 2008 : 12:55:24 PM
Hello Jacques,
I think there is no accessory shoe on the earliest FED cameras because they did not have accessories available, that were made by FED, at that time. At some time during 1935 (the second year of production), it was probably realized that some photographers were using Leica lenses on their FEDs and needed the accessory shoe to put a viewfinder on to. This probably led to the idea of producing the other accesories in 1937-38 ... 28mm lens, macro lens, 100mm lens, finders for these lenses, self-timer, right angle finder, etc.
In the beginning, the production of the FED by the young Communards (not children, but aged 15-20 according to Oscar Fricke) was difficult and almost everything was made by hand on machines, so it would have been much more work and time to make the accessory shoe, and they were trying to produce as many as possible as there was a great demand for the new Russian Leica.
Jacques, the FED in the center of the three, which is the lightest in color, is actually one of those starngely numbered cameras that we were discussing on another thread. The serial number is "No.417", but the camera has all of the characteristics of a FED from 1936 (between serial no.s 19,000 and 30,000). So, I'm sorry I can't be more precise about the serial number. I have noticed too that this texture of vulcanite can age to a greener color than some others which can look browner.
Regards, Bill
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| Jacques M. |
Posted - Mar 15 2008 : 11:08:21 AM
Hi Bill,
Thanks for your very professional and friendly answer.
I totally agree with you: probably vulcanites were not made by Fed which would explain the differences. Another puzzle (for me): the lack of an accessory clip on 1a and early 1b could perhaps be explained in this way ?
After having seen the close ups of Ulrich's Fed 1, I must admit that you are right: mine was certainly cleaned.
I am much accustomed to look at small mechanical details which distinguish some sub series: a missing screw or an aluminium cradle. So it's wonderful to learn what one doesn't know through this site.
So, thanks to Vlad, and again to you!
Amitiés. Jacques.
PS: By the way, I would be interested to know the # of your second Fed on the picture? It looks some "green" ones I saw. |
| nightphoto |
Posted - Mar 14 2008 : 1:29:46 PM
Hi Ulrich,
Thanks for the close-up photos. I can see, in your close-up of the FED, some of the same small black specks (look closely) which I believe are some of the larger carbon particles used for coloring the vulcanite and which were too large to fully oxidize (so far). Also, I can see more darkness in the crevices next to the lens mount than further away (look closely) so the overall appearance on your camera's surface is slightly darker near the lens mount.
The photo of the Leica looks very much like the close-up of my FED. I believe it is the same situation on both Leica and FED on some of these vulcanites used during the period.
Personally, I just don't think FED was thinking of coloring their cameras anything but black at this early period.
Regards, Bill
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| nightphoto |
Posted - Mar 14 2008 : 11:26:00 AM
Hello Jacques,
You are right, the last FED is a little earlier than the first two in the photos, but my idea was to show the variations. I agree about the variations in the Vulcanite coverings. It is an interesting study and I would wonder where the Vulcanite came from. For example, did the Dzerjinski Commune have a way of manufacturing it (sometimes?) or was it bought from another factory (I think more likely). So maybe the texture of the covering changed as the Vulcanite factory changed what it offered, and probably different formulas or variations in processes also.
I will not talk about the colors anymore, after this, as it would really take a chemist to say what happens to this material over time (or if it never changes it's color and is stable), but I would just say that there are many observations on the internet (about Leicas and Feds, and other things made of black vulcanite) about many variations in color that seem to occur with time and exposure. Almost all materials change in some way with age and it is my understanding that Vulcanite is not very stable, either in color of elasticity (gets brittle).
I think it too easy to say that anytime black shows up on a part of one of these that it is dyed or colored. In that case maybe all FEDs were originally brown, but have been dyed. This same brown - green can also be seen on a certain covering "pebble finish" on FED-Zorki cameras and some early Zorki cameras, as well as on some early Zenit-1 cameras. They can all also become brown, or berown with a slight greenish tint (you are correct Jacques that the color does depend on the lighting).
It is an interesting study indeed and I will watch for more examples of this fine textured Vulcanite that we have been discussing.
Regards, Bill
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| uwittehh |
Posted - Mar 14 2008 : 10:59:06 AM
Hello,
I have made some closeups too.
The first one is the 1935 FED. As you can see there is no black colour on the surface of the vulcanite close to the edge of the lens mount. In the deepenings between the surfaces there is seen some dark colour or maybe dirt close to the lens mount but only very little farer away from the lens mount on the right side of the pic.
http://fotos.cconin.de/ussrphoto/fedbrown04.jpg
The second photo shows the 1934 Leica, there you can see the dark colour on the surface of the vulcanite near the lens mount so the black colour only weares off over the years, I think.
http://fotos.cconin.de/ussrphoto/leicabrown01.jpg
So, noone can really say if brown FEDs have existed, but it's most interesting :-)
Ulrich
http://fotos.cconin.de |
| Jacques M. |
Posted - Mar 14 2008 : 08:26:54 AM
Hello Bill and Ulrich,
Most interesting, I think! 
A general remark first: the vulcanites of Fed and Leica seem quite different. The last ones are often softer and not far from leather, the first ones are generally (but not always) closer to plastic. But (with exceptions) they all were made in vulcanized rubber.
As for the 12xxx Fed vulcanite, I can only say that mine (and Ulrich's) doesn't have those traces. Two possible explanations: ours were cleaned (I don't think so on lookink closely at mine). Or maybe yours could have too been redyed with a bad tincture and what we see around the lens plate would be some rests of tincture and not dirt ?(or perhaps the two??).
As for your three Fed, probably the last one only has a # near 19xxx. The two other ones have coarse knurled knobs which can be seen only after 26xxx-29xxx after Fricke. I don't see well but I wonder if the second one wouldn't be what I call a dark green one.
For me, there are at least five different sorts of vulcanites:
- a rough black one (Fed a and b, up to c12xxx?),
- a fine one (black or brown? from 12 to 15-16xxx?),
- a fine black granulated one (my 20251),
- a fine green granulated one, but with different patterns (my 54223, Alain's 12760, 16401 and 52953),
- a rougher black one afterwards. My bodies with that rough vulcanite are very often marked with age and using.
All that only up to c100000. I don't count the other 1a ones that I don't know the vulcanite and I didn't verify after that serial number. All these five vulcanites have different patterns, whatever the colour can be.
It's all I can say. Sorry not to be more precise: I cannot show my cameras: no numerics! And it is difficult to compare the colours: the lightings are not the same...
Amitiés. Jacques. |
| nightphoto |
Posted - Mar 13 2008 : 8:24:31 PM
Hello Jacques and Ulrich,
Here are two close-up photos of FED-1 12820. In the first you can see the darkness near the lens. This is not dirt and will not come off. In both photos you can see the darkness in the crevices of the vulcanite. It is also not dirt and does not come off. In the second photo you can see the larger black carbon particles that did not oxidize and still are visible as black specks.
The third photo shows three FED-1 cameras from around serial numbers 19,000. You can see the three different amounts of aging to the vulcanite, even though this is a different texture than the earlier smoother type we have been talking about.
This kind of aging of vulcanite, where it turns to brown is very common on Leicas (as Jacques said about his) and other cameras that have certain early vulcanites, as well. If you do a search on Google for "leica + vulcanite" or "vulcanite + brown" you will see many references to this aging which is caused by ultra-violet exposure, heat, and general oxidation of the rubber compound that is made black with carbon particles. If you search "vulcanite" you can find out a lot about the material. Even things like pipe stems for smoking pipes made of vulcanite change to this exact same color.
So, I would say, yes, there are brown FED-1 cameras, but they were not brown when they were made, but change color, many times very evenly because it is not due to wear or handling (athough those things can be seen on the surface too), but to exposure to the atmospheric conditions. Us FED collectors are not the only ones who see this and it is a big topic of discussion with Leica collectors.
Regards, Bill
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| uwittehh |
Posted - Mar 13 2008 : 3:10:46 PM
Hello Jacques,
here it is the same, the brown colour is homogeneous up to the edges, also directly to the lens mount and the top and base plate.
My Leica from 1934 has also a brown body but there I can see that this is a sign of heavy use, the black colour weares off. There are black parts near the lens mount and at places where the fingers weren't.
Ulrich
http://fotos.cconin.de |
| nightphoto |
Posted - Mar 13 2008 : 11:08:30 AM
OK Jacques ... good idea, and I will take the take the lens plate off of my body # 12820 and report back with the results too!
Regards, Bill
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| Jacques M. |
Posted - Mar 13 2008 : 09:01:28 AM
Well; I took three bodies and uncrewed the lens plates to have a better view...
And with my magnifier, I examined all that:
- my #12840 shows a dark brown colour on the whole surface of the vulcanite. And this colour is perfectly homogeneous: we could have expected some discoloured or black marks at the places where fingers hold the body. It's not the case. There is nothing in the crevices of the texture, except that same brown.
- my #54229 shows a very dark green vulcanite, with a grain less coarse than the regular black bodies and different too from the much thinner #12840. The colour once more is homogeneous, and there is a very small place where the vulcanite was superficially cut as if with a razor blade (perhaps Alain? I bought this camera from him!). This very place shows the same colour, though the superficial part of the texture was removed.
- to compare with a Leica, I have in hands one of my Leica II D "Couplex", a 1934 one. I have chosen it because of the vulcanite which looks brown. No doubt: it's because of age and use: the crevices show some black dye. Idem for my 1933 Leica III with a very dark brown vulcanite.
So Bill I cannot fully agree with you. But perhaps it would be useful to open a special topic for the different kinds of vulcanites (grain, colour, thickness) which were used by Fed: I have just taken out my # 5330, 8528, 10020, 20251 and I realize that if all the four are black, the first three have a coarser vulcanite than the last one. I prefer not to look at the others!... 
Amitiés. Jacques.
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| Jacques M. |
Posted - Mar 13 2008 : 06:19:50 AM
Thanks Bill.
Certainly you are right. To be sure, there is only one way: to unscrew the lens plate of a "coloured" body and to look what is under.
I will tell you what I find in a while!
Amicalement. Jacques.
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| nightphoto |
Posted - Mar 13 2008 : 03:46:24 AM
Hi Jacques,
Yes, I have thought that too and there would be no way to know unless you could look at the camera held in your hands and with magnification. However, I would say two things I observe ... always on the brownish ones you can see black in the crevices of the textured pattern of the vulcanite ... always you can see a darker area just next to the lens mount. This leads me to believe that it was once black, or close to black, and has changed over the 70-80 years, probably from a combination of ultra-violet light, heat, and handling.
Also, two other observations or thoughts. I am an antiques dealer and so I go to the flea markets and there are often piles of old cameras. I have seen this exact changed vulcanite on other cameras from this general period and it always has the same look, which is dark in the crevices of the texture and a sort of brownish-green which is almost translucent looking on the higher surfaces. Also, many times uneven like the photos I just posted.
And, why would anyone think that FED would suddenly decide to use brown for 6 months when all of the other original FED-1 cameras always had black. To me it seems more likely that this type of vulcanite was just not very stable, possibly even a reason it was discontinued. To me, more likely than FED decided to buy brown vulcanite for any reason of fashion or creativity, especially when FED was trying to make the camera be just like a Leica which was always black.
Anyway just my opinion and I know that having a brown FED is a more attractive idea.
Regards, Bill
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| Jacques M. |
Posted - Mar 13 2008 : 03:27:27 AM
Hello Bill,
I had seen that camera and I wonder if it's not just the contrary: an original dark brown vulcanite turned to black with dye! The #12-15xxx look more fine and regular, if I can say.
This #133xxx is surprising: it's the first time I see such a vulcanite in these numbers. Anyway, the screw of the viewfinder and the lens are not original, but of course it doesn't say anything about the vulcanite!
Amitiés. Jacques. |
| nightphoto |
Posted - Mar 12 2008 : 8:50:08 PM
Hello Everyone,
Here are two photos I just saw of a FED-1, serial number 133404, with the kind of smoother covering we have been talking about that can be brown. This example shows how the covering can look when black and partially turning brown. So, this is why I think that these cameras were originally black, but sometimes turned brown with age, probably due to unstable dyes in this particular formula of vulcanite:
Regards, Bill
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| Vlad |
Posted - Mar 05 2008 : 4:56:47 PM
Thank you Bill, I will look into the Simachrome! By the way I've received a FED Siberia from DVDTechnik today, but as most of his cameras unfortunately the letters on top were filled in with black.. a little bit of lighter fluid, a little bit of Brasso and a toothbrush took care of that!  .
I don't know how I did not think of toothbrushes before, I've used q-tips and cotton pads, but Ulrich, now I've discovered a whole new level of cleaning! Thank you!
Vlad |
| nightphoto |
Posted - Mar 04 2008 : 6:08:19 PM
Vlad,
Never Dull is good. If you put in a search on Ebay you will find some and many hardware stores have it. But, I have used it for years on antiques and I can say that on soft polished metals such as silver or some polished brass surfaces, it can leave "micro-scratches" so not true that it is non-abrasive. These scratches will not be visible on the matte chrome of a FED, but I would worry a bit to use it very hard on a Kiev where the chrome is smoother and can easily become shiny, if rubbed, instead of matte. So, the stuff is good, but be careful with it. The best non abrasive metal polish is Simachrome. Best for everything! but a bit more expensive.
Regards, Bill
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| Vlad |
Posted - Mar 04 2008 : 1:33:01 PM
Thank you Ulrich, I will try to find it.. by the way the toothbrush+lighter fluid works magic! But I broke 2 toothbrushes cleaning 5 cameras yesterday I used those cheap plastic ones, since the good ones I keep for my teeth .. I guess will have to get some kind of industrial one, just for that purpose.. But it did clean off 80-year old dirt, I was very impressed.. Now is there a cure for the brass that shows from rubbed off silver surface of the cameras? How about rust spots?
Thanks,
Vlad. |
| uwittehh |
Posted - Mar 04 2008 : 1:31:18 PM
Btw. the 1935 FED came with original attestat, instruction booklet, a table for measuring and the bill from 1936 :-) Nice to have all the matching things together.
http://fotos.cconin.de/temp/feddoc.jpg
http://fotos.cconin.de/temp/fed352.jpg
Ulrich
http://fotos.cconin.de |
| uwittehh |
Posted - Mar 04 2008 : 1:28:24 PM
Vlad,
NevrDull isn't abrasive. It's kind of cotton wool with petroleum (it smells so) and wax. Just rub it on the metal without much pressure and clean it after some minutes with a dry cloth.
A box with about 160 grams costs 5 EUR here and lasts very long (one box in 2 years until now).
Ulrich
http://fotos.cconin.de |
| Jacques M. |
Posted - Mar 04 2008 : 06:52:37 AM
Hi Bill,
Certainly you are right about the colour. UV are really bad: we know that too for vulcanite and leather for books, for example.
But what about this special vulcanite which seems to appear only between c. 12000 and c. 14000? A problem of stocks for Fed? Between these numbers, the normal rough vulcanite seems completely absent...
A fine collection, Ulrich!
Amitiés. Jacques. |
| AidasCams |
Posted - Mar 04 2008 : 05:43:18 AM
Hello Ulrich and welcome to our Forums!
Regards,
Aidas |
| Vlad |
Posted - Mar 03 2008 : 7:12:48 PM
Ulrich, thank you for the toothbrush and lighter fluid tip, I will try it tonight! NevrDull... I have to try find it in USA... is it abrasive?
Vlad. |
| nightphoto |
Posted - Mar 03 2008 : 11:29:52 AM
I have noticed on the examples of FED-1 with this same covering that I have looked at (maybe 4 or 5), that when the lens is taken off and the vulcanite next to the lens mount is examined closely, it is darker next to the mount for about 1/8". Also if you look closely at the texture, with magnification, you will see that the indented "cracks" to the texture are darker than the higher surfaces.
All of this leads me to believe that the color has changed from darker to lighter over 75 years of aging, heat, ultra-violet light (the most likely changing source). Vulcanite is not naturally black ... it is colored with lamp black and other substances to make it that color. How stable these added colors are, the exact texture of the surface, and how much exposure to heat and ultra-violet light, among other factors, will determine the color changes of vulcanite over the years. I have seen this brown color on other objects that have vulcanite coverings also, and always with close examination you can see some variations where the material did not age in exactly the same way.
Regards, Bill
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| Jacques M. |
Posted - Mar 03 2008 : 02:57:39 AM
Hello Ullrich!
Thanks to show such beautiful Feds! Vlad is right: if you have a secret...
I possess several 1b (in fact nine, now), and my # 12840 is exactly as your 13743: very thin brown vulcanite. I never saw such a vulcanite outside of the 12xxx-14xxx range and I think the dark brown colour is original. But why that vulcanite?
Generally, the vulcanite is black (your 23xxx is an ordinary one, as far as I know) , dark grey or green-black and I agree with Bill: it's impossible to say if it changed with age...
I'm going to have a look at your collection now....
Amitiés. Jacques.
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| uwittehh |
Posted - Mar 03 2008 : 02:55:46 AM
Hello Bill and Vlad,
thanks for your answers. I also have several FED 1, but never have seen on that has this brown vulcanite (only ones that were heavily used that have a brownish look). All others I own are black and have the rougher vulcanite.
Vlad, I polish the cameras with NevrDull, that gives them a shiny finish. And I clean the curled knobs with a toothbrush and lighter fluid :-)
Here is another pic of the two FEDs compared side by side in daylight, the brown finish is better to see then:
http://fotos.cconin.de/temp/feds.jpg
Ulrich
http://fotos.cconin.de |
| Vlad |
Posted - Mar 02 2008 : 9:42:05 PM
Ulrich, welcome and good to see you on our forums! These cameras are absolutely beautiful, did you get them in this perfect condition or you have some cleaning secret? It would be great if you could share it with us.. I especially have trouble cleaning the corrugated knobs...
Bill, this is very interesting, is the FED vulcanite the only one you know that changes colors? You think it's from sunlight?
Vlad
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| nightphoto |
Posted - Mar 02 2008 : 6:10:48 PM
Hello Ulrich,
and welcome to this forum .. good to have you here and your collection site is very nice!
I have several FED-1 cameras from this time, with the same vulcanite. In most of these that I have seen, the color can range from black to brown or even a blackish-green. I believe originally they were black (or actually, very, very, dark gray ... maent to be black) but with time the color changes to a dark brown or dark gray-green. I don't believe that they were meant to be these colors, but that is how this specific vulcanite changes with age.
I agree that FED-1 examples from this period of 1935 and early 1936 are very well made and operate quietly and smoothly. This kind of vulcanite is very beautiful and that is a beautiful example you have shown us! Thank you.
I have just checked and I have only one with this kind of vulcanite. Serial No. 12820 and it is looking slightly faded and brown-green.
Regards, Bill
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