| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Bull Halsey |
Posted - Aug 14 2008 : 4:34:12 PM
Hello All,
A short while ago I asked about the Red Star Jupiter-8 which is pictured in the WIKI. Vlad was kind enough to post a comment on these lenses by Bill. It seems that Bill owns a Red Star lens which had been purchased by the same Seller that I had purchased both a M-39 Mount and a Kiev Mount Jupiter-12.
I'm curious to know if anymore has been learned about these lenses ? It is a bit odd that the same Seller is the only known Seller of such items to date. Could he have a special connection with someone ? Are these lenses connected at all with the Military, or for that matter are they legitimately for use with other departments ?
Also, what are known legitimate markings on Russian photographic equipment?
Thanks,
Steve |
| 2 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Bull Halsey |
Posted - Aug 14 2008 : 9:18:47 PM
Thanks, Bill.
Both lenses arrived this afternoon. What I neglected to catch in the Sellers photos was the fact that both lenses were export versions. A bit unusual for internal use ?
Also, with the exception of the Red Star, there are no special numbers other than the serial numbers, and those are #7500835 on the M-39, and #7407002 on the Kiev Mount. Quite a bit later than yours.
I don't quite know what to make of them. Could be totally unrelated to the Military. It's an odd thing to fake, the marking is very understated.
We'll see.
Steve
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| nightphoto |
Posted - Aug 14 2008 : 8:45:22 PM
Hi Steve,
I have two of the "Red Star" lenses. One is a Jupiter-11 with M-39 mount (for Zorki), serial number 6331244. The second is a Jupiter-11 with a Kiev mount, serial number 6308004. So both are 1963 lenses. In addition to the regular serial numbers, they each have an engraved number on the barrel. Below are photos of both.
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/J-11.jpg
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/j-11kiev.jpg
The seller, 'sokrat_photo', told me, when asked about these lenses: "These things have been bought from the widow of the former commander of special laboratory of military unit. I have bought also other cameras and lenses."
and:
"In the Soviet Army each technical equipment was marked by a special code or
number. On some things, for example clothes, this code was made by special paint.
On metal subjects an engraving was used. In small military units a code was engraved
manually. Usually figures were scratched by a sharp subject. In large
military units, in which there was a necessary equipment, such code was engraved
on the machine tool. In 70th years in the Soviet Army new mirror cameras
ZENITH have arrived. Become outdated rangefinder cameras FED, ZORKI, KIEV
and optics for them were a subject to write-off and destruction. Destruction
was made by barbarous methods. To me told, that a hammer broke lenses and
dumped them.
I think, what the widow's husband could
take away these lenses before destruction. In total there
was about 20 different lenses - both new, and strongly shabby."
To add to this story, I also bought, from this seller, a Kiev III camera that has the engraving of the TSVVS logo (only smaller than on the TSVVS camera) on the cover of the light meter.The camera is serial number, A 551478. Below are two photos of the camera:
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/tsvvskiev-1.jpg
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/tsvvskiev-2.jpg
This seller also sold another Kiev like this with the TSVVS logo. When I questioned him about these cameras, here is what he told me:
"All over the world soldiers who serve in elite military parts, decorate the
body with symbolics of the military part. This custom is widely widespread
both in Russia, and in the USA. To the Soviet officers such "entertainment"
was inaccessible. Them could exclude from members of Communist party and
expel from service. Therefore among officers there was a tradition to
decorate personal things with military symbolics.
Perhaps, these two "Kiev ТСВВС" have been intended for a gift to "the big
officer". To me spoke, that when the chief left in a stock or was transfered
in other military unit, it was accepted to give similar things. Perhaps,
these devices have been prepared as a gift for an anniversary."
So, it is all very interesting. I have to say that I have not found out more about these Red Star lenses, or the TSVVS Kiev cameras.
My opinion at this time is that the cameras may be fakes, although there may be some possibility that the owner was a military officer and had these engravings made on his cameras. This might be possible if he was an officer of the Topographic Service of the Army Air Force and wanted the 'TSVVS' engraving on his cameras, just as it is on the TSVVS rangefinder cameras that were probably known to some military people. TSVVS is not the name of a camera at all, it is the name and insignia of the particular service. So, maybe possible ... maybe fakes.
The Red Star lenses may be fakes or may be real, in my opinion. The numbered engraving on the barrel, and the engraved and painted star both look pretty good and lead me to believe that they may be real. However, I don't know that they are. If the lenses are real, then maybe that points towards the camera having a better chance of being real. I guess I would say that as of right now I am leaning a slight bit towards the lenses being authentic (60% - 40%) and somewhat against the TSVVS Kiev III being authentic (70% - 30%).
I too would love to know what the legitimate markings on Soviet Military photographic equipment look like! I would say that the only markings that I know are authentic are those on the TSVVS rangefinder and the FS-2 Fotosniper.
Regards, Bill
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