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1947 KIEV Production Line Photo

Created by nightphoto on 7/3/2009 11:41:49 PM
Last Edited by altix on 3/6/2015 1:42:50 PM  
Located in
History, Documents & Ephemera > Factory Histories

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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto

USA
1027 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Jul 04 2009 :  12:03:06 AM  Show Profile  Visit nightphoto's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Here is a photograph which I have bought and which was found on Molotok ... (my thanks to Vlad for finding it and helping me to buy it!). It is quite historic and please take note of the unusual lenses fitted to these cameras. Look at the WIKI entry for some more detailed thoughts about the photo.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/472009_arsenalkiev1.jpg



Regards, Bill

Michel
France
217 Posts
Posted - Jul 04 2009 :  04:19:29 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Very interesting !

Thanks a lot, Bill, for sharing it with us.

Amitiés,
Michel.
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Jacques M.
France
2488 Posts
Posted - Jul 04 2009 :  3:30:13 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

Really very interesting!
Perhaps it would be convenient to make a parallel between TSVVS and these 1947 Kiev, both receiving genuine Zeiss lenses? Even if the lenses are not necessarily of the same years...

Amitiés. Jacques.
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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
1870 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Jul 04 2009 :  8:24:52 PM  Show Profile  Visit Luiz Paracampo's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Bill
Very very interesting picture.
As I could see, with a Zeiss experience since 1956, the lenses are for sure the Jena Tessar 2.8 50mm (5cm) in collapsible mount.
Thanks
LP
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Jul 04 2009 :  8:33:08 PM  Show Profile  Visit nightphoto's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Well, I think there are parallels between TSVVS and the early Kievs in some respects. I would strongly suspect that during the first five years (possibly even the first ten years) after the end of WWII, many technologies, equipment, personnel, and materials were brought from East Germany to the Soviet Union.

At this time it would seem that German lenses were state of the art and the Soviet lens technology and manufacturing were just beginning to reach a higher quality level and higher level of mass production. So as long as German lenses or the lens blocks were available, they were used by the Soviets.

However, I still suspect that it may be possible (and to my mind, quite honestly ... very probable) that the TSVVS was actually manufactured in Germany. I know there are other theories, but some of the details of the camera itself point to a German factory, maybe even at Zeiss Jena.

But this photo does show that even though there has been a lot of research done in the case of the "Contax to Kiev" story, not everything is known about what really happened. So, if just one photo of the 1947 initial Arsenal production line for Kievs shows this new and surprising information, what will other photos, documents, and actual cameras actually show?

I wonder if anyone has ever found a 1947 KIEV camera with a German Zeiss Tessar still in place? Were some released to the public with the German lenses, or were they replaced by the ZK lenses before release?

Regards, Bill

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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
1870 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Jul 04 2009 :  8:44:16 PM  Show Profile  Visit Luiz Paracampo's Homepage  Reply with Quote
This is the lens:


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/472009_jena tessar2.81.JPG

LP

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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
1870 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Jul 04 2009 :  8:48:51 PM  Show Profile  Visit Luiz Paracampo's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Note the photo paper is the Agfa Brovira from Wolfen before the ORWO foundation.
LP
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Jul 04 2009 :  9:12:40 PM  Show Profile  Visit nightphoto's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Luiz,

Thanks for the photos of the lenses. It looks like the same as in the 1947 photo. But, was this type of lens made in Jena also?

And ... your depth of knowledge of every product from the past is always amazing to me, so thank you! So when is the latest date this print can be made if made before ORWO?

Regards, Bill

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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
1870 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Jul 04 2009 :  9:48:33 PM  Show Profile  Visit Luiz Paracampo's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hello Bill
You can see in the lens Jena N° 15XXXX Tessar 2.8 5cm
ORWO (ORiginal WOlfen) began officially in 1963
Regards
LP
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Dayton nathandayton
USA
95 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Jul 05 2009 :  09:40:52 AM  Show Profile  Visit nathandayton's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Bill, from the image it is difficult to tell. Are the cameras engraved Kiev and black filled? It is interesting that most of them do not have lenses. Speculation would be that not enough lenses were available!
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Jul 05 2009 :  11:19:01 AM  Show Profile  Visit nightphoto's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hi Nathan,

The original photo is not much sharper than you see it. Here are two more close-ups of the scan of the photo. The logo on the front of the cameras appears to be the early engraved script version of the word "KNEB" (used in 1947 and occasionally in 1948) and does look to be filled in with black (but not sure about the black).

You may be right about not enough lenses. If the camera with the somewhat readable tag is #38 then maybe only the first 30 - 40 had Zeiss Tessar lenses from Jena?


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/572009_detail1.jpg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/572009_detail2.jpg



Regards, Bill

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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
1870 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Jul 05 2009 :  2:54:07 PM  Show Profile  Visit Luiz Paracampo's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hello Bill and members.
When Germans went Russia to built Kievs, Production was stopped on Saalfeld where they were originally built. The Germans had another mission: after build the start-up production in Ukraine, they must return with a new camera to be built in Germany. It was born the Werra! A joint effort of German and Russian people working in the various Soviet factories.
See some tips at:
http://www.novacon.com.br/odditycameras/werra.htm
http://www.novacon.com.br/odditycameras/werra2.htm
http://www.novacon.com.br/odditycameras/werra3.htm
Picked from Zeiss archives.
Regards
LP
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Jacques M.
France
2488 Posts
Posted - Aug 20 2012 :  09:50:35 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nightphoto

I wonder if anyone has ever found a 1947 KIEV camera with a German Zeiss Tessar still in place? Were some released to the public with the German lenses, or were they replaced by the ZK lenses before release?






Hi Bill!

Three years later... I had forgotten your thread, and I was interested by Jena Contaxes since...

It seems that the very early Kiev were all mounted with Zeiss lenses. ZK lenses would have appeared probably only during the year 1947. By my datas:

First, some Kiev prototypes with double serial number:
Contax II # 6066, Kiev # 470006: CZJ Sonnar # 3007088.
Contax II # 6070, Kiev # 470010: CZJ Tessar 3,5 # 3009343.
Contax II # 5908, Kiev # 470033: CZJ Sonnar.
Contax III # 5937, Kiev # 470019: CZJ Sonnar # 2852849.
Contax III # 18194, Kiev # 470025: CZJ Sonnar # 3092495.

Kievs with Arsenal number only:
Kiev II # 47058, CZJ Sonnar # 2710155.
Kiev II # 47074, CZJ Sonnar # 2853698.
Kiev III # 48096, CZJ Sonnar # 2845902.

And two late Jena Contax II (with Kiev engraving on the front, made in the fifties):
Kiev II # 30566, CZJ Sonnar 2852924.
Kiev II # 30575, CZJ Sonnar 3105581.

It seems interesting to note that lenses of two different batches (# 284xxxx or 285xxxx and 30xxxxx) were used at the same time.

Amitiés. Jacques.





Edited by - Jacques M. on Aug 20 2012 11:04:03 AM
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Elmar Lang
Italy
21 Posts
Posted - Aug 22 2012 :  4:33:26 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hello,

just to add a further detail to this interesting discussion, I would like to inform that since nearly 20 years, I'm the happy owner of a 1947 Kiev camera. The body's serial number is 47367 and the lens is a collapsible "ZK 1:2 F=5 CM" with the prism maker's mark within "19" and "47" logo; serial no. "N000064" and red cyrillic "P". The body and the original everready case have a red painted number "2704".

I hope that these little info could be useful.

Best wishes,

E.L.

Edited by - Elmar Lang on Aug 22 2012 4:37:30 PM
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Jacques M.
France
2488 Posts
Posted - Aug 23 2012 :  05:03:48 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks, Elmar! I have put it in my datas.
The first serial number I have for a ZK lens is 19-47/000034, mounted on the Kiev II # 47402. Concerning that matter, it seems there is no real order: the first 1947 Kievs did not necessarily receive the first ZK lenses.

It is always possible that Sonnars were first mounted and replaced as soon as possible by ZK before the cameras were released to the public...

Amitiés. Jacques.

Edited by - Jacques M. on Aug 23 2012 08:04:28 AM
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