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James King
jamesk8752
USA
8 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 05 2010 : 1:43:27 PM
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I recently acquired this lens on a Zorki-4 body from 1972, both of which I had overhauled by Yuri at Fedka. As the first two digits don't seem to indicate a year, I asked Yuri if he could tell me when it was made, but he was not able to do so, and suggested that I ask my question here. Does anyone know how I can find out when this lens was made? Thanks in advance!
Regards, Jim
Zorki-4 w/KMZ Jupiter-8 50/2 lens. |
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Yuri Boguslavsky
fedka
USA
244 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Mar 05 2010 : 9:20:58 PM
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I also promised that a simple question like this will generate responses from the forum:-)
My experience with 0xxx serial numbers was that they appear on initial production batches. But I believe there is more to these "0" numbers. |
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Martin Smith
martinsmith99
United Kingdom
20 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Mar 06 2010 : 11:43:54 AM
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| An early run of J8s probably. |
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James King
jamesk8752
USA
8 Posts |
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Paul Sokk
Paul Sokk
Australia
37 Posts |
Posted - Mar 06 2010 : 4:54:25 PM
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| There are theories (do a search here or google it) that serial numbers beginning with "0", "00" and "000" are pre-series production numbers. In addition to that, some believe that these lenes are of a higher quality. I'm no expert on Jupiters but the black lens at the vey least represents a cosmetic redesign of the barrel components and therefore would likey have had a pre-production "test" run. I am only guessing but the lens could be pretty close to the body age. I know that you said Zorki 4 but I think that the 4K was releaed in 1972 and that probably got the newly redesigned J8, black J12 and black Industar lenses. The Zorki 4 probably got these as well but anyway the 4K marks the timeline. I bought a new 4K with black J8 and J12 in 1975 or 1976. |
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James King
jamesk8752
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - Mar 06 2010 : 8:37:49 PM
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Thanks, Paul, that makes sense to me. The serial number of my Zorki-4 is 72009926, so it was probably made in 1972, near the end of Zorki-4 production. It's likely that the lens would be contemporaneous, although I don't know the history of my camera before it came to the US - it's always possible that the lens was acquired later. Anyway, unless I receive information to the contrary, I'll assume that the lens was made in 1972 at the beginning of production of the black version. In any event, it's a nicely made lens with good optics.
Regards, Jim
Zorki-4 w/KMZ Jupiter-8 50/2 lens. |
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Yuri Boguslavsky
fedka
USA
244 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Mar 06 2010 : 9:06:29 PM
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Below is the list of "0" black Jupiter-8s that I sold in the past 7 years. The two top (shorter numbers) had serial numbers engraved on the front, like older Jupiter-8s, the rest (longer numbers) have the number on the side (lower part). It looks like the number or "0" lenses is way too high for a pre-production run.
Where is Zoom? He must know!
057191
072937
0121737
0136092
0143330
0154597
0156262
0168889
0179342
0190209
0209259
0210244
0221464
0250232
0253146
0266712
0886948
0891269
0891547
0913841
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Paul Sokk
Paul Sokk
Australia
37 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2010 : 12:45:44 AM
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Yuri,
Of course you are right (maybe the first 2 are pre-production?). While we are waiting for a more informed response, I did a quick check on eBay of black J8s. These are the numbers:
0127478
0174938
0232386
7716899
Three to one, however, on Alfred Klomp's site is what looks like 7318654 so say 3 to 2 in favour of "0". Pure speculation but is it possible that when the black J8 came out in the early 70s, the lens numbering reverted to consecutive production numbers? And changed back to a year prefix later, possibly as early as 1973? In the large number of J8s that you have undoubtedly sold, it would be interesting to know whether there are any missing or under represented years.
Regards,
Paul |
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Paul Sokk
Paul Sokk
Australia
37 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2010 : 01:15:06 AM
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| Looking at the numbers in both lists again, there is a definite pattern. Leaving out the first two 6 digit numbers,the numbers all begin with 01 (10 numbers),02 (7 numbers), 08 (3 numbers) and 09 (1 number). Again pure speculation but what if the black J8 became available earlier, maybe in limited numbers; 08 could be 1968, 09 could be 69, 00 is not good for my theory and then big numbes in 1971 and 1972 before the 73 prefix. Just a thought and it fills in the day. |
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James King
jamesk8752
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2010 : 12:48:02 PM
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Paul, that actually makes sense. My black J-8 with serial number 0231479 would be a 1972 model, congruent with my Zorki-4 body made that year.
Another test - does anybody have a J-8 with serial numbers beginning with 68 through 72?
Regards, Jim
Zorki-4 w/KMZ Jupiter-8 50/2 lens. |
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4272 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Mar 08 2010 : 2:27:36 PM
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James,
hmm... just checked about 40 cameras, none in that range... odd.
Vlad |
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Paul Sokk
Paul Sokk
Australia
37 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2010 : 4:19:26 PM
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| Further idle speculation. If the silver J8s remained concurrently in production until 1972, perhaps for the home market (given the big "Made in USSR" in English on the black ones), then the factory probably would have wanted to differentate between the two series. I guess the question then is are there any silver J8s from 71. 72 particularly (there were almost definately black J8s in 1972 already) or even 73 or later? Mind you, this would support either the consecutive number or date code theory and prove nothing more than make the theories more plausible. It seems strange that nobody knows for sure.... |
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Ulrich W.
uwittehh
Germany
874 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Mar 08 2010 : 4:41:54 PM
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I have some Zorki 4 from 1970 that have lenses with a leading zero in the serial number.
There is one black Jupiter 8 with serial number 0100190 that comes together with a Zorki 4 (latin stamed name) from 1970 (serial starts with 7000), another black J-8 (serial 0115973) that was on a Zorki 4 that also starts with 7000 in the serial number, and a Zorki 4 which serial number starts with 7015 that has lens number 0151438.
Jim , I also have a J-8 that starts with serial number 68, but none with 69, 70 or 71...
Ulrich
http://fotos.cconin.de |
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Paul Sokk
Paul Sokk
Australia
37 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2010 : 7:04:49 PM
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Thanks Ulrich. Three cameras alone are not absolute proof but three 1970 cameras with black J8s with consistent 01 numbers indicates that contrary to my original thoughts, black J8s were very probably already around in 1970 as standard issue. I am not advocating the date code over the consecutive number theory (although the missing, so far, 03, 04, 05, 06 and 07 numbers would be strange) but if the 08, 09, missing 00, 01 and 02 represent dates, it is possible that the factory would not have wanted to use 00 for 1970 as this would have suggested a pre-production number and this might explain why there are more 01 numbers than any others.
Paul |
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Yuri Boguslavsky
fedka
USA
244 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Mar 08 2010 : 8:11:05 PM
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Interesting discovery.
Below are all J-8 numbers I had. There are indeed no 69, 70, 71 and 72 numbers. I placed dots there.
The 0 numbers are at the bottom. They are all black.
The last 68 number was chrome, the first 73 number was black.
5006447
5109884
5426313
5437054
5515708
5605579
5607443
5617607
5625195
5648345
5705411
5743154
5756894
5761095
5761778
5766242
5775748
5807933
5811357
5860278
5875087
5932774
5940197
6021769
6032321
6037739
6058065
6059014
6063144
6094287
6101659
6102177
6104406
6131060
6136858
6152533
6215290
6216332
6231002
6240898
6257153
6275112
6285210
6295203
6298878
6305213
6318961
6320509
6327015
6440856
6466996
6490898
6518972
6528538
6601356
6602457
6609282
6614422
6688637
6733666
6765446
6781511
6801600
6829584
6840151
6846691
6851242
6856645
.......
7302587
7305859
7320325
7335877
7470514
7502405
7506280
7517238
7555964
7558511
7563901
7569127
7573581
7600892
7609398
7609792
7610281
7637367
7638512
7641365
7664756
7667908
7706079
7708110
7733021
7766409
7800687
8001974
8206827
8207994
8208220
8301536
8408637
8410191
8412534
8414666
8415009
8415318
8415360
8416500
8417490
8500405
8501688
8502284
8504383
8505635
8506703
8509820
8511486
8901477
025666
057191
072937
0121737
0136092
0143330
0154597
0156262
0168889
0179342
0190209
0209259
0210244
0221464
0250232
0253146
0266712
0886948
0891269
0891547
0913841
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Ulrich W.
uwittehh
Germany
874 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Mar 09 2010 : 3:15:07 PM
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Yuri,
here are some of my numbers (I left the early and the later ones out):
...
6818766
6823467
6835501
7313809
...
0100190
0115973
012504
0151438
0188413
0196977
0260073
0898970
202328
240508
There is also a gap between 1968 and 1973. And there were more with a leading zero than I thought :-)
The last two numbers (starting with the 2) are interesting, I don't know if I made an error while writing them down, but I don't believe it. They were both on Zorki 4 from 1971. Unfortunately I have sold them both...
Ulrich
http://fotos.cconin.de |
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Jacques M.
France
2667 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2010 : 4:07:41 PM
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What listings!
I hope you will succeed in understanding how all that works...
I have seen several white J8 with double and even one triple 0 as a prefix. I did not bought them.
Amitiés. Jacques. |
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James King
jamesk8752
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2010 : 2:37:01 PM
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Thanks to everybody who replied in this thread, offering theories and data which might explain the many black J-8 lenses with initial "0" in the serial number. I'm reasonably comfortable in believing that my lens was indeed made in 1972.
Regards, Jim
Zorki-4 w/KMZ Jupiter-8 50/2 lens. |
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Topic |
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KMZ Jupiter-8 serial number 0231479
