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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts
Posted - Sep 24 2015 :  08:29:32 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sorry, but we went in the middle of the thread to the level when decided to abandon rumors and logical guess. If there is no documentary proofs about Contax production in "Volzhskiy optiko-mekhanicheskiy zavod" then I consider your logical conclusion is doubtful. Also in the article of Bernd K. Otto there is no evidence that supports your conclusion. This was a working -name for a camera. Zeiss factory was divided among several factories and this was decided in summer -autumn 1945. Volzhskiy optiko-mekhanicheskiy zavod is not figured in any of the lists. The camera Volga was just a legend for German workers. It was strictly prohibited to speak with Zeiss directors or workers about planned dismantlement. Any intentions of Soviet side were hidden by legends, one of which for me seems to be the mythical Volga camera. Some time ago I thought in the same way as you, but now in the view of documents that I've read recently, for me the most logical conclusion is that there never existed any intention to transport Contax production to Volga region.


I do not know how to answer your questions about dairymaids. If there shortage in working force for some peasants were made exclusions. And military Arsenal remained in Ural region. Kiev Arsenal was prepared for merely civil production (at least those workshops where dairymaids were working). The observation about workers from nearest villages did also one Zeiss worker in his letter from Kiev. I cannot find it at the moment but probably I've read it in W. Mhlfriedel, E. Hellmuth "Carl Zeiss in Jena 1945-1990" Kln 2004 (I do not have this book at the moment by hand to confirm it).

I will send you the scans with data about dismantled equipment tomorrow in private.

Edited by - altix on Sep 24 2015 09:12:38 AM
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Zoom
596 Posts
Posted - Sep 24 2015 :  09:13:34 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by altix

Sorry, but we went in the middle of the thread to the level when decided to abandon rumors and logical guess. If there is no documentary proofs...

If you do not want to use logic - I do not insist. Btw, the documents are also lie.

quote:
Originally posted by altix

And military Arsenal remained in Ural region. Kiev Arsenal was prepared for merely civil production...

:D The plant number 784 of NKV (People's Commissariat of weapons) -- "was prepared for merely civil production"... You made me a day.

quote:
Originally posted by altix

The observation about workers from nearest villages did also one Zeiss worker in his letter from Kiev.

From "nearest villages" is not equal "from kolkhozes".

quote:
Originally posted by altix

I will send you then scans with data about dismantled equipment tomorrow in private.


.
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts
Posted - Sep 24 2015 :  09:36:56 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
You made me a day.

I am glad to hear this. I doubt that existed some severe restrictions on the plan that was under repairmen and reconstruction. If it was allowed to people to sleep inside the factory walls I think that your statement about the high security standards in 1945 in Arsenal is under the question. Specially for you I wrote
quote:
Kiev Arsenal was prepared for merely civil production (at least those workshops where dairymaids were working)

In 1945 to my knowledge they did not produced any military device. There were a shortage in human resources and in transport. This caused delays in final preparation of factories to accept dismantled Zeiss plant. The involvement of people from near villages and ex-kolhozes were completely possible.

quote:
If you do not want to use logic - I do not insist. Btw, the documents are also lie.


I do not see much logic in your connection of Volga name with Volzhskiy optiko-mekhanicheskiy zavod. I do not know any document that proves that a part of Zeiss production was planned for transfer there. In the same time I know that for Soviet side all decisions about the future dismantling strategy were rendered before Volga name appeared in Zeiss documentation. And in these decisions were no place for Volzhskiy optiko-mekhanicheskiy zavod. So strictly logically (using Occam's razor amd the Laplace's principle of sufficient reason) one should accept that Volga name has nothing to do with Volzhskiy optiko-mekhanicheskiy zavod. To prove the opposite you need to show any document that gives a proof of such connection.

Edited by - altix on Sep 24 2015 09:54:45 AM
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Sep 24 2015 :  10:03:32 AM  Show Profile  Visit nightphoto's Homepage  Reply with Quote

The problem is not whether or not some female workers at Arsenal had previously been dairymaids, or which farm they exactly came from, but the problem is that this 'dairymaid' idea is being used to try to prove that the FED-Arsenal camera examples that we know of, are authentic, and that the poor chrome job on them is due to 'dairymaids' or untrained workers! I have not seen this kind of thin and poor chrome job on any Soviet camera (even made right after the war), except on fakes that were chrome-plated in a home workshop. ( Maybe the Polish and Ukrainian fakes are made by dairymaids when the milk prices are down! ;.))

You can not take propaganda statements that are written as propaganda, whether from Soviet or American or anywhere else, and use it as proof.

To my friend Jacques: Yes, we can think that the FED-Arsenal cameras we know of are authentic even though not proven, or we can think of them as fake until proven (given certain technical details). But, I think it is best just to withhold judgement as to authenticity until there comes a time when some actual proof is available.

At this point, through the good work of Zoom, Alzo and Altrix, there is much more information easily available (regarding the Arsenal Factory history), but it all just leads to the idea that some camera production was thought of (ordered) for the city of Kiev. Nothing shows that the FED-Arsenal camera was made at Arsenal or at that time period. So, better not to jump to conclusions without facts.

Look at how the story of the FED Berdsk has changed over time. Look at how the story of the migration of the Contax to Kiev has changed over time. Probably more will be uncovered about FED-Arsenal over time.

Regards, Bill

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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts
Posted - Sep 24 2015 :  10:59:54 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

I love Zoom's "bla-bla-bla" in a previous post!

In fact, probably we all agree. As for me, I don't say "Fed Arsenals were made at Arsenal's" but "I think that Fed Arsenals...". A great difference, certainly. And I will wait before I swear anything even if I feel a reasonable certitude now. As for the dairymaids, the cows and the Polish milkman...

Like Bill, I think that the scenery is suddenly changing. After that episode, who is able to say, for example, when and where a late Fed 1e was made? Or even a Red Flag? For sure? Even before, it was difficult! If Fed's remaining parts, tools and documents were scattered in several places during the war (and after), of course the factory had great problems to recover...

Jacques.
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Sep 24 2015 :  2:25:42 PM  Show Profile  Visit nightphoto's Homepage  Reply with Quote
One more detail that I have noticed about the actual engraving on the FED-Arsenal:

The letters "No." before the serial numbers are different than the same "No." before the serial numbers of the Theodolites pictured.
On the theodolites from Arsenal, even as late as 1952, the large "N" curves over the small "o". On the FED-Arsenal cameras the "N" is straight with no curling at either end.

Also the chrome looks pretty good on all of the theodolites shown in the recent posts. The "dairymaids" sure got good at chrome-plating quickly !;.))


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2492015_resize_image.jpg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2492015_resize_image-1.jpg



Regards, Bill

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Zoom
596 Posts
Posted - Sep 24 2015 :  3:37:01 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by altix

I do not see much logic in your connection of Volga name with Volzhskiy optiko-mekhanicheskiy zavod.

What another plant could use this trademark?

Somehow I reminded this song (sorry, my translation):

In this world there is no accidental events,
Each step leaves its trace,
And there is no miracle, and coincidences are extremely rare,
And the course of the time is invariable,
And often a takeoff turns to a fall,
And I saw how the fall becomes the rise...
...
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts
Posted - Sep 24 2015 :  4:22:05 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bill,

Yes, the "N" is different.
But the drawing of "67" seems made by the same pencil-plate on the two photos...
It would be interesting to know if there were different shapes of "N" at Arsenal's, and when they appeared.

Amitis. Jacques.
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Sep 24 2015 :  5:04:27 PM  Show Profile  Visit nightphoto's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Jacques,

The "6"s are similar, but the end of the "6" on the theodolite almost is touching the body ... on the FED-Arsenal there is some room between the end and the body.

The differences of the "N" are distinct. Maybe means something, maybe not.



Regards, Bill

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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts
Posted - Sep 25 2015 :  03:04:38 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Right, Bill, the "7" is similar and the "6" slightly different. The devil is in the details!

Altix will certainly tell us if the specific "N", on theodolites, existed before 1947...

Always about details: it seems that the 00004 and the 00216 have a specific vulcanite, not far from the Red Flag's. And this vulcanite looks varnished...

Amitis. Jacques.

Edited by - Jacques M. on Sep 25 2015 03:23:26 AM
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts
Posted - Sep 25 2015 :  03:31:09 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Altix will certainly tell us if the specific "N", on theodolites, existed before 1947...


No I will not since I never saw theodolites from 1945 or 1946. I think it is better to wait other Arsenal documentation on this camera from archive. I just point out that the way of writing "N" varied in time on Arsenal. Actually my task here was to show that such camera existed. I hope to complete this task in the nearest future. Concerning the originality of each concrete sample I would not like to debate because it can last forever.

quote:
What another plant could use this trademark?


I don't want discus this issue further. I will go to Jena and look on documents by myself. I played in your game and used the name "Volzhskiy optiko-mekhanicheskiy zavod" that I copied from you. I know the factory Nr 237 or Kazansky optiko-mekhanicheskiy zavod. According to your logic the camera working-name should be not "Volga" but "Kazan" or instead "Kiev" cameras we would have "Dnepr" cameras. Even using your name "Volzhskiy optiko-mekhanicheskiy zavod" the semantic analogy Volga-Volzhskiy optiko-mekhanicheskiy zavod is very poor proof. Say using this photo


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2592015_kmz.jpg

I can draw a lot of ridiculous conclusions about KMZ in Krasnogorsk using the semantic analogy.

I find your site very interesting and you did a great job, but I do not accept some your interpretations and comments. Sorry.

Zoom, please send me the message in private since I do not know how to send you the files I promised.

Edited by - altix on Sep 25 2015 03:43:22 AM
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Zoom
596 Posts
Posted - Sep 25 2015 :  09:25:43 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by altix

I know the factory Nr 237 or Kazansky optiko-mekhanicheskiy zavod.


But now, from me, you know that originally it was publicly called as: "Volzhskiy" (" - " or " "). I agree that this name (or better to say: nickname) is rare and has been used more for conspiracy for a plant's number replacement... But exactly the same situation was with other plants (KMZ, NPZ)...

From http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/novikov_vn/09.html , for example:
quote:
, . . . , . . , , - . . . , , , , . , , .


Edited by - Zoom on Sep 25 2015 09:28:36 AM
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Sep 25 2015 :  10:18:30 AM  Show Profile  Visit nightphoto's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by altix

I think it is better to wait other Arsenal documentation on this camera from archive. I just point out that the way of writing "N" varied in time on Arsenal. Actually my task here was to show that such camera existed. I hope to complete this task in the nearest future. Concerning the originality of each concrete sample I would not like to debate because it can last forever.




Official documents from Arsenal dating to 1945 - 1947, and concerning the actual production of a FED camera by Arsenal, would be most welcome and would absolutely prove that a FED-Arsenal camera was made.

If the document(s) confirming actual manufacture are found, then of course it will be necessary to try to examine the technical details of each known example to ascertain which of them may be authentic examples, or which may not be authentic. Especially necessary as there appear to be technical differences, serial number groups, and at least two versions of the logo on these cameras. Maybe all are authentic, maybe some are authentic, maybe none are authentic. This can be the case even if proven that actual examples were made by Arsenal during 1945 - 1947.

Of course we will miss your insights if you decide not to participate in those discussions as they occur, Altrix, but thank you very much for your researches already finished and future documents you may find.

Very big thanks to Zoom as always, as his website, posts, and insights are a wealth of factual information concerning many subjects we are all interested in.

Regards, Bill

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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts
Posted - Sep 25 2015 :  2:24:36 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dear Bill,

I think it is high time to postpone all discussions on the camera until new documents will appear. There exist some problems with taking permissions to copy the documents we are looking for. I am unsure about the outcome but I hope everything would be fine. I did not know previously but in Ukraine the documents with the seal secret should be kept 75 years under this seal. Anyway, if we will not succeed with the permission to copy in 5 or 6 years it will became possible. I hope to finish with the FED Arsenal ambiguity earlier

quote:
Of course we will miss your insights if you decide not to participate in those discussions as they occur

Thank you Bill, but I feel that I wrote in this thread too much that people would start to believe that I have a great passion for this camera or I can give some useful insight in discussions. In fact, I like Contax and Kiev cameras (Zeiss and early KMZ optics), even more to shoot with them as to discuss them And of course Carl Zeiss Jena history (and Arsenal history in a connection with this subject) is what fascinates me since the time I visited Optical museum in Jena for the first time.

I hope to appear here very soon with the new information.

with best regards, altix

Edited by - altix on Sep 25 2015 2:30:55 PM
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Ilya Stolyar
ilyast
USA
67 Posts
Posted - Nov 11 2015 :  2:20:08 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/11112015_20151111_141703.jpeg
One more
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts
Posted - Nov 12 2015 :  09:46:22 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

Nice! And with light traces of brushing on the chrome, like the others, as it seems? Congratulations, Ilyast!
Could you tell which sort of lens you have?

Thanks. Jacques.
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Ilya Stolyar
ilyast
USA
67 Posts
Posted - Nov 12 2015 :  4:52:54 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks,
FED f=50
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts
Posted - Nov 13 2015 :  05:51:34 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

It looks like a very early "1 turn" Fed lens, no?
Like on the s/n 00216 that Altix showed above in this thread.

Jacques.
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts
Posted - Dec 31 2015 :  10:01:16 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dear all,

I wish you a happy New Year!

In order to put an end to the topic of FED Arsenal originality I will share two more documents. These Arsenal factory documents are taken by Alzo from State Archive of Kyiv http://kiev-arhiv.gov.ua/en/. There is a long story about all difficulties he met on the way to make these photocopies. The documents are still under the seal "Secret" and this causes a lot of problems.

I want to declare that the following documentation is published the first time. The last time Arsenal factory archive was inspected by factory employers in 1985. Any claims that everybody knows this fact and everything is well known are ridiculous.


The first document is the letter of factory director Smirnov to the Head of 2nd Main Administration of NKW comrade Dobrovolskiy dated by 22.12.45 (almost exactly 70 years ago).

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/212016_ark98WM.jpg

In the letter Smirnov informs that
"...The factory does not have an equipment for (the production) of photo-camera "FED". The first batch of 100 cameras will be produced by factory in primitive way. Simultaneously the proof of developed technology will be conducted.

For broadening of production of photo-camera "FED" and grinding machines the factory plans the increase of incomplete production to the tune of 300 thousands of Rubels."


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/212016_ark98WM2.jpg

Honestly to say, I do not understand what does it mean "the increase of incomplete production". Anyway, from this letter it is clear that the production of FED cameras was planned in 1946 but already in 1945 it was evident that the shortage of needed equipment will influence the production numbers and their quality.


Edited by - altix on Jan 02 2016 04:29:20 AM
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts
Posted - Dec 31 2015 :  10:34:32 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The second document is the 172nd page of Arsenal factory archive dated by late 1947. The quality of paper is very bad so I reproduce the Russian text as well


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/212016_ark177WM.jpg

"Остатки незавершенного производства на конец года составляют реальную сумму по всем заказам, за исключением незавершенного производства аппарата ФЭД, какое списать с баланса по представленным ведоместям Министерства не разрешило, а предложило реализовать его как гражданскую продукцию найдя покупателей. "




http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/212016_ark177WM1.jpg


"The rests of incomplete production at the end of the year make up the real sum on all orders. The only exception is the incomplete production of camera FED. The Ministry prohibited to write off it from the balance. Instead the Ministry proposed to sell cameras as civil production by finding the buyers."

So the whole project of FED Arsenal cameras was not successful. The production was started in 1945 and ended in 1947. The proposition of Ministry to sell the cameras to civil market is interesting. This means that initially these cameras were intended for military use. This explains why some of the cameras have "military-Arsenal" logo.


Edited by - altix on Jan 02 2016 04:32:24 AM
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Juhani Halmeenmaki
cedricfan
Finland
993 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Jan 01 2016 :  02:35:31 AM  Show Profile  Visit cedricfan's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Wow! Amazing reading, many thanks!

Best regards,
Juhani
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts
Posted - Jan 01 2016 :  07:27:56 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

Congrats and thanks for your job, Altix and Alzo... Fabulous!

If the cameras were sold only in 1947/48, as it is suggested by the page 172, it explains why we can find different lenses. The "one turn" Fed lenses, made for the 1a, and which probably came at Arsenal's with the Fed body parts. And early "Moskva" lenses, made in 1948, put on the bodies after the decision of selling the cameras...

As for the "incomplete production", certainly they had hoped to mount several hundreds of cameras with the available spare parts. But it would have been necessary to make special tools to achieve the work. Probably too much for the factory: the present was already on the side of the Vega-Kiev project...

So, certainly we will never know how many of these cameras were made. But at least, now we know they were made at Arsenal's!

Amitis. Jacques.

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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4212 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Jan 01 2016 :  4:39:57 PM  Show Profile  Visit Vlad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Yes!!! Altix, Alzo, this is it! Without a doubt the most concrete evidence that puts all doubts to rest about the existence of this model, thank you for all your amazing work, I know how much labor and negotiations that took from both of you!
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts
Posted - Jan 02 2016 :  04:55:22 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dear Juhani, Jacques and Vlad,
yes, probably the story is not as complete as we would like to see it. some further research is needed. This archive is rather a collection of letters, orders and year-reports, so there is no technical drawings or documentation. I've got an impression that the rests of FED (and FED-Arsenal) tools after unsuccessful FED Arsenal program were transported to KMZ. I believe it is the most probable scenario since FED factory in Kharkov subordinated to another Ministry. It is also important to mention that Arsenal was unable to produce its own optics in 1945-48.

I would like to thank Alzo personally for his persistence. I was skeptical all the time that the work performed by Alzo is possible in the condition when archive workers are persuaded that 70 years old documents should remain secret at least one more century.

altix
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Lenny
496 Posts
Posted - Jan 19 2016 :  2:45:13 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
wow Altix.
You are the Man,
loved to read all this.
How do you think about that #00216 has no hollow? Could it be that the Arsenal maids knew that it wasn't needed, even before KMZ cowboys did. Ilyas's #00127 looks the same, at least the engravings on the top plate, wonder if there is no hollow either, wish Ilya could post another picture. Bill's #00020 looks definitely like a fake, good he sold it. So I need to live for some years more till all the archieves in Ukraine open and we will know more about Feds too.
Altix, thank you so much for all this
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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts
Posted - May 10 2016 :  3:11:10 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Another one, the s/n 00010:


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1052016_Fed Arsenal 10 7.jpg

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Alfa2
Poland
349 Posts
Posted - May 11 2016 :  04:58:40 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

Yes, and this "lovely" price - 8000 $

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Lenny
496 Posts
Posted - May 12 2016 :  02:33:39 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zoom


http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/history/davidov-from-lupe.html (a brief plants' history and an information about numbers)



Interesting to me is that the old Arsenal plant number was #393 and the new KMZ plant number was also #393.
Wish Zoom could tell more about this coincidence, the timeline or if there was intention behind that.
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Zoom
596 Posts
Posted - May 12 2016 :  07:17:19 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lenny

Interesting to me is that the old Arsenal plant number was #393 and the new KMZ plant number was also #393.
Wish Zoom could tell more about this coincidence, the timeline or if there was intention behind that.


It is simple: number 393 was free... Kiev Arsenal plant joined the plant number 235 NKV (aka Votkinsk Machine Building Plant) and ceased to exist as a separate entity.
See also http://www.zenitcamera.com/articles/cameras/zenit-prehistory.html (in Russian, sorry).
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Lenny
496 Posts
Posted - May 12 2016 :  08:26:43 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks Zoom.


Amazing is that the first FED-Arsenal camera might have been produced in Kiev in January 1946
and at the same time the first Red-Flag was produced in Berdsk.
When the FED factory moved back from Berdsk to Kharkov in September 1946 Arsenal was still producing FED-Arsenal cameras for 1 more year, even when it was only in small quantities.
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Alfa2
Poland
349 Posts
Posted - May 13 2016 :  01:29:33 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

Is it known how many FED-Arsenal camera were produced ?

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Jacques M.
France
2521 Posts
Posted - May 13 2016 :  03:25:54 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alfa2


Is it known how many FED-Arsenal camera were produced ?



No. For the moment, we know seven of them, the last one having s/n 00222 (cf the wiki).
We don't know either if really 222 cameras were made... Probably we will discover other ones in a near future, thanks to this thread!

Amitis. Jacques.
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Alfa2
Poland
349 Posts
Posted - May 13 2016 :  04:52:32 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks Jacques.
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Elnur Mehdiyev
elnur
Russia
12 Posts
Posted - May 17 2016 :  1:14:10 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi guys! Help to identificate. Fake or not?


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1752016_image.jpeg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1752016_TD0alnuH9KE.jpg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1752016_4Qor-j3KKJc.jpg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1752016_shVRVC_rWOU.jpg



http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1752016_zJ7wZt68jZw.jpg

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Lenny
496 Posts
Posted - May 18 2016 :  06:48:43 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by elnur

Hi guys! Help to identificate. Fake or not?



Hi Elnur,

this is very easy, 3 screws under the rewind knob.
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Elnur Mehdiyev
elnur
Russia
12 Posts
Posted - May 18 2016 :  2:38:05 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thx a lot Lenny )) its really so easy ))
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection

Posted - May 18 2016 :  3:03:33 PM  Show Profile  Visit nightphoto's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Lenny,

Shouldn't you add this camera to the WIKI list with a note concerning authenticity? If this camera is not authentic then shouldn't it be compared with other examples known?

Regards, Bill

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Lenny
496 Posts
Posted - May 18 2016 :  5:37:28 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nightphoto

Lenny,

Shouldn't you add this camera to the WIKI list with a note concerning authenticity? If this camera is not authentic then shouldn't it be compared with other examples known?

Regards, Bill



Hi Bill,

I'm not the wiki guru, I only offered to arrange wiki entries if they are messed up. Everybody should feel free to add to the wiki what seems to be important for them.

To me, it's not important to add photos of fakes, and this one with those 3 screws was a kind of easy case. Maybe it would be worth to check closely how well the top plate was engraved, but I think it won't help much in the future.

Before I copied many photos of fakes too and put them among the original ones in my base, with bad results, because they should be separated.

No, I wouldn't add fakes into the wiki, but if there are fakes already in the wiki I would mention what's wrong with them. But those who own those fakes might delete that the next days.

Our goal should be to teach everybody how to recognize fakes, like you did with describing the corners around the shoe on your #00020, because every single collector has to make his own decision to buy a camera which could be faked.
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection

Posted - May 18 2016 :  6:33:36 PM  Show Profile  Visit nightphoto's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hi Lenny,

As far as I know the authenticity of any of the FED-Arsenals known and in the WIKI is in question. They may all be fakes or only some may be. Until it is proven that actual FED cameras were made at Arsenal, not just intended to be made there as the documents shown on this thread indicate, we can't know if cameras were made there. An actual passport would have no doubt been made for any cameras made at Arsenal at that time. If a passport for a FED-Arsenal is found and shown to be authentic, then we may be more sure. But Lenny, you did seem to rewrite the entry taking away any text that cast doubt on the authenticity of these FED-Arsenals? Or, am I wrong?

Regards, Bill

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Lenny
496 Posts
Posted - May 18 2016 :  11:20:36 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nightphoto

Hi Lenny,

As far as I know the authenticity of any of the FED-Arsenals known and in the WIKI is in question. They may all be fakes or only some may be. Until it is proven that actual FED cameras were made at Arsenal, not just intended to be made there as the documents shown on this thread indicate, we can't know if cameras were made there. An actual passport would have no doubt been made for any cameras made at Arsenal at that time. If a passport for a FED-Arsenal is found and shown to be authentic, then we may be more sure. But Lenny, you did seem to rewrite the entry taking away any text that cast doubt on the authenticity of these FED-Arsenals? Or, am I wrong?

Regards, Bill



Bill, didn't you read the last posts Altix wrote with documents from the FED archives? I'm sure that FED-Arsensal cameras were produced and in Vlad's post you can read the same. I also know that Jacques is of the same opinion and there are others. It is more known about FED-Arsenal than about Red-Flag because nobody saw the passport Princelle was talking about. So I don't know how you come to your conclusion that these cameras are still in doubt.

The first batch of FED-Arsenal might have gone to the military with all the passports, some of the others might have been given as gifts, I don't think that they needed to make passports for them.

But you are free to put #00022 into the wiki too. To me #00022 is a fake, same as your #00020 was. I'm not sure about #00216 because there is no hollow at the rewind clutch.

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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection

Posted - May 19 2016 :  12:29:43 PM  Show Profile  Visit nightphoto's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Lenny,

I have read all of the posts on this FED-Arsenal thread, but I dont know if you have read them carefully as the documents were not from the FED archive, but rather the Arsenal archive.

It may be that you and others on the forum have come to the conclusion or opinion that the FED-Arsenal cameras that we know were made at FED-Arsenal just after the end of the War. However, there is no proof that the cameras we have seen are the ones that were envisioned to be made at FED-Arsenal. We probably have proof that officials thought that Arsenal could make FEDs and maybe even that the process was started to some extent, but that is different from knowing for sure that the cameras known are the ones (if there were any).

So far we only have eight examples and at least two of those seem to be fakes or at least made up of different, non-original parts. That is - 25% fake.

As well, the idea that if they were made for the military, cameras would not have passports is not very likely. All Soviet military technical equipment was required to have passports including that from the more secretive branches like the KGB. The idea that cameras were just given to workers (the milk maids) is also unlikely as they would more likely have been sold, if possible, and would have also had passports if either gifts or sold. They would have had serial numbers and detailed passports.

I have originated and edited many Wiki entries but I have never deleted another authors opinion and substituted my own because I did not agree. So, as I asked you why did you take away the text reflecting my opinion that there is uncertainty that these cameras are authentic examples? You are sure they are authentic and so my opinion does not matter?

Also, I have long wondered where you live and if you have a collection. Another subject, indeed, but your profile seems to be quite anonymous and uninformative on a personal level and we have not seen any photos of your collection.

Regards, Bill

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Alfa2
Poland
349 Posts
Posted - May 19 2016 :  1:32:37 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This is interesting thing with FED-Arsenal. There is no proof FEDs were produced in Arsenal.

So I have another idea. We can put FED-Arsenal into Wiki with description that probably FEDs were made in Arsenal but there is no proof and link to this thread and without any photos because we don't know which camera is original, if some is original.
This is in order somebody may look for informations about FED-Arsenal and it is beter to read this thread than find nothing.
What do you think about that ?
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection

Posted - May 19 2016 :  1:57:16 PM  Show Profile  Visit nightphoto's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hello Alfa2,

In general I like your idea and was also thinking that it might be very helpful to have a link to this thread from the Wiki page. Also, I agree that the photos of my camera should not be on the WIKI page as my camera was obviously either a fake or had many non-original parts and so is not representative of the cameras we are discussing. But I think that photos of both models should be on the WIKI entry page, for reference, then with the link to this thread, a person can get a good idea of what's goining on. As well, the FED-Arsenal entry should be moved into the "Unidentified / Contested Authenticity" category.

However, if we go ahead and do this, how will we know that someone won't rewrite the entry, at will, to say the camera is for sure authentic, or for sure a fake, depending on their own opinion?

Regards, Bill

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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4212 Posts
My Collection

Posted - May 19 2016 :  1:59:44 PM  Show Profile  Visit Vlad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I didn't move the entry into regular Wiki category because I'm of the same opinion as Bill. Even though I'm convinced that these cameras were made based on documentary evidence that Altix provided, I'm not convinced that these are the same cameras that were made and until there is concrete evidence of that I'd like to not display these in "authentic" section.
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Lenny
496 Posts
Posted - May 19 2016 :  1:59:48 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nightphoto

Lenny,

I have read all of the posts on this FED-Arsenal thread, but I dont know if you have read them carefully as the documents were not from the FED archive, but rather the Arsenal archive.

It may be that you and others on the forum have come to the conclusion or opinion that the FED-Arsenal cameras that we know were made at FED-Arsenal just after the end of the War. However, there is no proof that the cameras we have seen are the ones that were envisioned to be made at FED-Arsenal. We probably have proof that officials thought that Arsenal could make FEDs and maybe even that the process was started to some extent, but that is different from knowing for sure that the cameras known are the ones (if there were any).

So far we only have eight examples and at least two of those seem to be fakes or at least made up of different, non-original parts. That is - 25% fake.

As well, the idea that if they were made for the military, cameras would not have passports is not very likely. All Soviet military technical equipment was required to have passports including that from the more secretive branches like the KGB. The idea that cameras were just given to workers (the milk maids) is also unlikely as they would more likely have been sold, if possible, and would have also had passports if either gifts or sold. They would have had serial numbers and detailed passports.

I have originated and edited many Wiki entries but I have never deleted another authors opinion and substituted my own because I did not agree. So, as I asked you why did you take away the text reflecting my opinion that there is uncertainty that these cameras are authentic examples? You are sure they are authentic and so my opinion does not matter?

Also, I have long wondered where you live and if you have a collection. Another subject, indeed, but your profile seems to be quite anonymous and uninformative on a personal level and we have not seen any photos of your collection.

Regards, Bill



Bill, of course I meant the FED-Arsenal archives.

I'm sure and I think others are sure too that FED-Arsenal cameras were made at Arsenal, otherwise Altix and Alzo wouldn't have stopped searching. If the cameras listed in the wiki are original or not is a totally different story, as in every other entry we can't be sure that all listed serials are original. But FED-Arsenal cameras are real and the entry should be moved to the Arsenal section, this is not a Phantasy camera.

I meant if cameras were made for the military passports were likely stored somewhere central at the military and were not together with the cameras and those passports could still be somewhere at the military.
It seems the camera of Davidenko's friend was given as a gift.

What is written in the wiki is anonymous, I'm not able to check who wrote what. I thought from reading the thread that all agreed that FED-Arsenal cameras were produced. Again, if those serials listed in the wiki are original or not is a totally different story, those are only known examples, original or not. It's the same with listed serials with the same number, they are not marked which is real or fake, but someone who reads the listing can make own conclusions. Also Vlad doesn't like to mark cameras as fake because we can't be 100% sure. But FED-Arsenal is not a Phantasy. Normally, I always try to keep what is written in the wiki, but not if there is false information. So do you think that no FED-Arsenal camera was made at Arsenal? There are other entries with fake cameras listed in my opinion but I don't mark them as fakes because we can't be 100% sure. And in this entry #00020 is marked with Zorki parts but not as a fake and I also changed nothing of that information which was already there.

I'm sure you heard about collectors who are well known and their cameras were stolen from their homes. Besides that, it shouldn't matter if posters are anonymous or not, only important is their contribution to the community. I posted photos already.

Edited by - Lenny on May 19 2016 2:06:09 PM
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4212 Posts
My Collection

Posted - May 19 2016 :  2:00:32 PM  Show Profile  Visit Vlad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I'm ok with putting it into contested section.
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Lenny
496 Posts
Posted - May 19 2016 :  2:09:22 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Vlad

I didn't move the entry into regular Wiki category because I'm of the same opinion as Bill. Even though I'm convinced that these cameras were made based on documentary evidence that Altix provided, I'm not convinced that these are the same cameras that were made and until there is concrete evidence of that I'd like to not display these in "authentic" section.



Then we should just make a note that the authenticity of each sample is not proven. Besides that I think Jacques camera might be original.

Readers who search for FED-Arsenal can't find them.
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4212 Posts
My Collection

Posted - May 19 2016 :  2:12:21 PM  Show Profile  Visit Vlad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
It's a special section just for that purpose. Users can use the search feature to find it. Until there's a concrete documentation for at least one of them we can say any of these are 100% authentic. thus it goes into this section.
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Lenny
496 Posts
Posted - May 19 2016 :  2:15:40 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Vlad

It's a special section just for that purpose. Users can use the search feature to find it. Until there's a concrete documentation for at least one of them we can say any of these are 100% authentic. thus it goes into this section.



Then Red-Flag should be there too. Or did you see the passport Princelle was talking about?
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Lenny
496 Posts
Posted - May 19 2016 :  2:21:23 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Vlad

It's a special section just for that purpose. Users can use the search feature to find it. Until there's a concrete documentation for at least one of them we can say any of these are 100% authentic. thus it goes into this section.



Some readers might not be familiar with the features of this website.

I can tell I searched for some minutes, others just might give up. It should be assumed that this website should have at least a little true information, and we have that in the text in the entry, but it can't be found in the Arsenal section. Very poor.
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