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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
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 Posted - Aug 18 2007 : 6:29:34 PM
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I'm a little confused.. is Riga Minox camera considered Soviet camera? Why are there so many different Minoxes? Can someone enlighten a newbie? :) If I collect strictly Soviet/Russian cameras, do I collect this one and which of the Minoxes should I collect?
Thanks,
Vlad. |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Aug 19 2007 : 1:16:53 PM
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Hi Vlad,
Most models of the Minox, including the Latvian Minox "RIGA", are not considered to be Soviet cameras.
However, there was a short period of time, October 1940 to June 1941, when Latvia was occupied by the USSR.
During this time, the Minox cameras that were already finished were re-engraved (striking out the words "RIGA" and "MADE IN LATVIA" and adding "MADE IN USSR"). The new cameras that were produced, after October 1940, were engraved directly "MADE IN USSR". The instruction manuals and film boxes were also marked "USSR" during this time.
About 2000 of these "Russian Minox" cameras were made and the serial numbers read 7800 to 9900 (approximately). They are rare, with the first version with the struck out "RIGA" be the scarcer of the two, and the manual and film boxes from this period are also rare.
Some collectors don't consider these cameras to be Soviet cameras since the Soviets had very little to do with them besides re-engraving and taking over the production for a few months, but others feel that they are Soviet since Latvia was under the control of the USSR during that time and that was accepted (unwillingly) by the international community.
During World War II (starting in mid 1941) the Germans occupied Latvia, and after the war the VEF company which makes the Minox camera moved to Wetzlar, West Germany where they continued production.
My own personal opinion is that the "Minox-USSR" does belong in a collection of Russian / Soviet cameras since they have a historical role and were made during the time the Soviets directly controlled the factory.
Regards, Bill
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Aug 19 2007 : 1:28:52 PM
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Bill,
I don't disagree with you much, but now it's time to do so! :)
Latvia has been annexed to Soviet union in 1940 becoming Latvia SSR, then invaded by Germany in 1941 and retaken by USSR in 1944 and stayed a 15th Soviet republic, that is part of Soviet Union since that time until 1991. Even though UK and US may not have recognized Latvia's annexation in the beginning, the country was fully under Soviet control during the whole period of time, that is not requiring any extra documents to enter and exist country from any other Soviet republics. I have been in Riga and Yurmala in Latvia a few times, it was very much soviet, using soviet currency and under soviet regime. It seemed to me even more Soviet-like than Republic of Georgia where I grew up.
Actually Latvia was a key to Yuri B in finding out the historical non-authenticity of the Brown Fotokor that we have in our catalog. Lavtiva was not on the Soviet coat of arms in 1938 when they stop production. And was only added in 1940!
So in my opinion anything produced 1940-1941 and 1944-1991 should be considered "Soviet"
Vlad |
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Aug 19 2007 : 1:32:26 PM
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Also in my childhood I have had a very "Soviet" transistor radio "VEF"!  Manufactured sometime in 70s having a "Sdelano v CCCP" on it with a CCCP mark of quality stamp.
Vlad |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Aug 19 2007 : 1:40:08 PM
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Vlad,
Yes, I agree and thanks for the more accurate history of Latvia, but the VEF Minox moved to Wetzlar West Germany after WW II, so it was no longer Latvian (therefore Soviet). So I would still think that the Minox cameras made from 1940-41 were "Soviet" but between 1941 - 1944 they were German (the few that were made had Swastikas engraved on them) and then they moved to Germany, so were not Soviet.
What do you think?
Regards, Bill
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Aug 19 2007 : 1:45:31 PM
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I see that makes more sense then... I'm just confused now why my Radio said Made in USSR.... because I remember the CCCP mark of quality on that unit... maybe a non-optical division VEF stayed in Latvia or they still marked any production with VEF.. weird.. I'll have to investigate it now :). It's a bit off-topic now though ... :)
Vlad |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Aug 19 2007 : 1:53:33 PM
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I think maybe the company VEF stayed in Latvia (I see they are still producing acoustic items in Latvia even today)but the Minox camera division moved to Germany, which is why it no longer says VEF on the German ones.
So here is another question more on topic: What about the German cameras that say "USSR Occupied Germany" on them? I have often wondered if these Exaktas and other cameras could be considered Soviet production in any sense?
Regards, Bill
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Aug 19 2007 : 2:00:11 PM
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As far as I've talked to people they don't consider these German cameras to be part of Soviet collectibles, but a lot of collectors make a choice of collecting them anyways. These are actually ONLY cameras made for American export as far as I know per agreement in Yalta.
I found the VEF Radio that I had but you can't see the back.. I remember CCCP stamp on the back of that unit.... Maybe it is possible that USSR would stamp these at import time?
http://forum.myriga.info/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=4355
Vlad |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Aug 19 2007 : 2:09:11 PM
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Wow! Nice radio. Don't show me or I will want to be collecting radios too!
I guess it is a good thing that they weren't making cameras in Afghanistan when the Soviets occupied it or else we would have to decide about those cameras too!
Regards, Bill
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Aug 19 2007 : 2:29:08 PM
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LOL!
On the risk going completely off-topic, there were quite a few cool radios made in USSR. There are also a lot of people collecting those. I think seller Olegpiter on eBay has quite a decent selection of these... :)
Vlad |
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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
973 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Aug 19 2007 : 4:02:15 PM
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Hello friends,
Good question about Minox Riga indeed! Three Baltic States were occupied by soviets the same period, so everything related to Minox Riga versions, is related to my fatherland either. I consider the VEF Minox (Made in USSR)as camera, with special role in soviet camera history, while beeing not soviet made camera, but soviet period camera.
But be aware! It's enough to take the Minox Riga in your hands and you already want to buy one for your collection. Unfortunately it's a quite expensive toy indeed!
I was in Riga this summer and saw the huge buildings of VEF factory still alive. During the soviet period VEF was a leading soviet enterprise, which produced electornical consumer goods. Everyone in post soviet are in love with famous VEF radio sets. They were good enough to receive the airwaves of "Radio Svoboda" and "Voice of America", so KGB was not satisfied for sure.
Regards,
Aidas |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Aug 19 2007 : 4:39:42 PM
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Hello Aidas,
Can you tell me if there are fake Minox-USSR cameras being made and sold recently? What I mean is, with fake engraving on the outside and a fake serial number on the inside.
Regards, Bill
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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
973 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Aug 20 2007 : 05:52:36 AM
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Hello Bill,
As you can see from eBay, the new Minox Riga consignment came into market recently. I know the guy from Riga, who sold at least 50-60 new looking RIGa's during the year. According to experts, it's impossible to produce the new Minox Riga, but it's quite easy to reengrave it indeed. That's why milled out "made in USSR" or "Made in Latvia" seems for me somehow suspicious.
I suppose, all the fake Minox Rigas (with fake engravings, assembled from spare parts, etc.) comes to market from the capital of Latvia. I was lucky to see one "No Name" Minox with serial number #5xxx. Just after half a year I met the same camera, but it already had the standard engravings. That means there are big spare parts market nowadays, and Riga camera dealers are able to manipulate with it.
Regards,
Aidas |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Aug 20 2007 : 3:51:30 PM
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Hi Aidas,
Yes, I thought it a bit suspicious when many "USSR" engraved Minox cameras were being sold on Ebay a few months ago, all from one source and also always coming with different small leaflets, manuals, fim cans, and other accessories that made them look more authentic. If they were authentic then each camera would be sold separately and the other items, which also have good values would not be given with it. Also there was always a somewhat low "Buy It Now" price, which is not usually the case when the authentic "Minox USSR" cameras come up.
Thanks very much for the information, your experiences, and your opinion.
Regards, Bill
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Aug 20 2007 : 3:57:22 PM
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Man! That is really bad news... I almost, ALMOST bought one of those about a month ago, good thing some sucker overbid me by $30.. :) Well I actually feel bad for him... so is there no way to tell by looking at the camera? There are no "tells" on the body itself?
Vlad |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Aug 20 2007 : 4:04:43 PM
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Vlad,
I think you would have to actually have the camera in hand, and possibly even compare it with an authentic example also in hand to be able to tell if these are authentic or not.
I think that both Aidas and myself are suspicious of them because of the way they are being sold, the continual supply of them, and what Aidas has actually seen when in Latvia, however, at least on my part, I am just very suspicious and I have no actual proof that they are not authentic ... I just suspect that they may not be. This is why I have not bought one even though I would like to have one in my collection.
Regards, Bill
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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
973 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Aug 21 2007 : 06:02:12 AM
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Dear friends,
Recently I possess 4 different versions of Minox Riga. All of them are bought in Latvia during the last 3-4 years at reasonable prices indeed. Trying to buy them I have met a lot of interesting fellows and saw the huge ammount of interesting stuff for Minox Riga, incl. production schemes, leaflets, devices for shutter calibrating, film development stuff etc. Those people told me, that existing the market of appr. 200 new looking Minox Rigas in Latvia recently, stolen as spare parts or almost finished cameras by VEF co-workers just after the production of Minox Riga was stopped down. And all these cameras are concentrated by two persons !!! These Minox dealers had no experience with international trade for a long period, while beeing with only russian speaking skills. That's why prices for the interesting cameras were reasonable enough. The situation changed just after they entered eBay with dozens of RIGA's.
But we should go back to authentity of these Minox'es. Although assembled from spare parts (hopefully) by previous VEF co-workers, they can be accepted as an authentic Riga's anyway. These fake engravings on very few of them - just try to make some solid cash from "stupid" collectors.
I contacted Marty (www.minoxdoc.com) to ask about authentity of my Minox Rigas. According to him, some of them could be fakes, but couldn't explain his opinion assuredly. After I met my friend in Riga, he told me that Marty is talking much about new-looking Minox Riga's as possible fakes, but still buying them periodically at present prices ...
Although I have some suspicious about authentity of recent Minox Riga's in the market, they still remain as the historical showpiece of the magnificent past, and I think Minox Riga is must for any serious collector.
Regards,
Aidas |
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Riga Minox
