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 Topic  |
Alfa2
Poland
349 Posts |
 Posted - Apr 26 2016 : 11:18:38 AM
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This will not solve our problem but I saw FED produced shortly after 210 000. It had vulcanite from FED NKAP. Maybe it will be possible to find it and place a photo here.
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - Apr 28 2016 : 05:04:00 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lenny
So Fed produced Fed-Zorkis with 1/1000 speed together with KMZ in Krasnogorsk
and at the same time produced Fed-1f with 1/500 speed in Kharkov.
Often it is said, that Fed had trouble after the war to set up production again. It is said, because of this trouble Fed had a joint venture with KMZ to produce Fed-KMZ and Fed-Zorki.
Of course, everything from the former Fed factory was lost for Fed, it might have been in the hands of KMZ at that time. But Fed was able to set up production again in June 1948, at the same time when Fed-Zorkis were produced in Krasnogorsk. The passport of Fed-Zorki #00697 is known, dated 11/X/1948. It seems Krasnogorsk production wasn't much ahead, Kharkov was able to produce hundrets of Fed-1 in 1948 too.
If I compare my early Fed-1f from 1949 with my Zorki-1a also from 1949, the Fed looks superior in quality. It seems to me, Fed was AHEAD, while KMZ assembled prewar parts and started to set up own production. |
Edited by - Lenny on Apr 28 2016 05:11:51 AM |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 01 2016 : 11:51:21 AM
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We know about passport #129314 dated 31/V/1940 and passport #136157 dated 20/VIII/1940. 6843 cameras were produced, 595 cameras per week. That seems not much. Did the factory have 2 weeks summer holidays in 1940?
Then we know passport #145179 dated 22/X/1940. 9022 cameras till #136157, 1002 cameras per week. That seems much.
Then we know passport #168018 dated 18/VI/1941, just 4 days before the war started. 22839 cameras till #145179, 670 cameras per week.
Then we know passport #180024 dated 31/VII/1941. 12006 cameras till #168018, 1968 cameras per week. That's much too much. Can't be true if we assume the passport dates are right.
Then from #180024 till the last in the wiki #183892 it's 774 cameras per week till the factory evacuation started on 05/IX/1941. That seems possible again. But still, something must be wrong here. |
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4265 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - May 02 2016 : 9:51:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by RCCCUK
I thought you might be interested in this photograph from the book, 'On the Wings of History - 75 Years of the FED Factory 1927-2002'.
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1782013_fed photo.jpg
I believe that the caption reads, ' Assembling the first postwar FED cameras. Berdsk, February 1946'.
David.
Hi David, do you by any chance have this book and is it possible to see the cover? Thanks! |
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David Tomlinson
RCCCUK
United Kingdom
208 Posts |
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Alfa2
Poland
349 Posts |
Posted - May 03 2016 : 04:26:56 AM
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Wow, is the book scanned and somewhere available ?
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Edited by - Alfa2 on May 03 2016 04:29:06 AM |
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4265 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - May 03 2016 : 07:25:08 AM
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| Thank you so much, David! |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 03 2016 : 07:26:59 AM
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Which number had the FED plant before the war in Kharkov? Was it plant #296?
Thanks
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levonsa
levonsa
Russia
248 Posts |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 03 2016 : 12:00:59 PM
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Thanks Alexey,
so I guess when Fed was Kommuna under the NKVD it was plant #296.
Did the number change when they came under the NKAP in Febuary 1941?
Did they keep the plant number in Berdsk?
Did they have the same number when they relocated to Kharkov again in 1946?
What are the plants #297 and #393 ?
I just want to comletely understand what Zoom wrote in this thread. Zoom mentioned plant numbers with important decisions.
Thanks
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4265 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - May 03 2016 : 2:59:51 PM
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| Huh? Yoshkar-Ola? I thought it was Berdsk??? Alexey?? |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 03 2016 : 11:59:17 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lenny
Then we know passport #180024 dated 31/VII/1941. 12006 cameras till #168018, 1968 cameras per week. That's much too much. Can't be true if we assume the passport dates are right.
This is not a problem at all, because there is another passport #164716 dated 18/III/1941. Then the production was 793 cameras per week from March 18th till July 31st, 1941. That seems possible and it also match with the highest serial in the wiki #183892, which would be 774 cameras per week till the evacuation started. Seems to me #183892 was still produced in Kharkov.
Then there was no camera produktion during the war. The first Fed made in Berdsk was produced in January 1946. End of 1942 all equipment and staff was transfered to Krasnogorsk and likely all left over parts of Fed-1e. Not possible to assemble Fed-1e from parts in Berdsk, they had nothing, they started from scratch. And as we know Fed-Zorkis were made from left over parts, likely unengraved top plates too and if there were already some engraved Fed-1e top plates, those likely would have been re-engraved as Fed-Zorki. |
Edited by - Lenny on May 04 2016 12:05:59 AM |
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Jacques M.
France
2653 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2016 : 11:32:09 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Vlad
Huh? Yoshkar-Ola? I thought it was Berdsk??? Alexey??
Astonishing!
Vlad, please, could it be possible to have a traslation of this line "19"?
I see that KMZ is quoted, with the year 1943.
Thanks. Jacques. |
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4265 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - May 04 2016 : 11:41:44 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
Vlad, please, could it be possible to have a traslation of this line "19"?
Jacques, it says:
Factory and from where relocated: Ukraine, FED Labor Commune (City of Kharkov)
Factory Number (?): 3 (NKVD), 296 (NKAP)
Place of relocation: City of Yoshkar-Ola (huh?)
Final destination after de-evacuation: Partial re-evacuation to Krasnogorsk, KMZ 1943
Destination Factory Number: 393 |
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Jacques M.
France
2653 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2016 : 1:23:58 PM
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Thanks, Vlad.
That could be a piece of the general puzzle, which leads from Kharkov to Kharkov, with a partial re evacuation to KMZ (in 1943?).
But what about this "Yoshkar-Ola"? Why is Berdsk missing? And Kiev too (for the Fed-Arsenal)?
Anyway, it seems that the story is really entangled. And as we don't have the status of Alexey's document, it's difficult to know what it means exactly...
Alexey, if you could tell us more...
Amitiés. Jacques. |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2016 : 2:47:27 PM
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Of course Arsenal and Berdsk and there might be others. A factory needed to be evacuated and not only one factory. Space was needed to store all that equipment. Lines 16, 17 and 18 on Alexey's list are black.
Important is only what happened after the war since there was no camera production during the war. Interesting is that they built NEW cameras in Kharkov, while in Krasnogorsk left over parts were RECYCLED, makes me love my early Fed-1f even more, and Zorkis have a touch of garbage, at least the early ones. |
Edited by - Lenny on May 04 2016 3:03:03 PM |
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levonsa
levonsa
Russia
248 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2016 : 07:29:37 AM
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Hello!
Jacques, you'll be pleasantly surprised, but FED-KMZ, FED-Zorki and FED-Arsenal have common roots of the FED NKAP! So from Berdsk details we go to different plants! Even parts for TSVVS from Germany came to the factory, which had not produced photographic equipment.
I do not know why the author pointed out the evacuation of the city of Yoshkar-Ola. In the book, 50 and 75 years of plant FED indicated Berdsk. |
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Jacques M.
France
2653 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2016 : 07:50:26 AM
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Ha ha! Thanks, Alexey!
So, there would be a "main" line between Kharkov and Berdsk.
And from Berdsk, some "secondary" lines towards KMZ (production of Fed-KMZ and Fed-Zorki) and Arsenal-Kiev (trial of production of Fed-Arsenal).
And the Fed-NKAP were produced in Berdsk.
Can you confirm all that? But which book do you speak of?
Thanks! Jacques. |
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Jacques M.
France
2653 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2016 : 08:14:47 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lenny
Important is only what happened after the war since there was no camera production during the war.
It's a supposition, a guessing, or whatever else. But we have no proof: we don't have any documents to attest that.
Even if I have the same opinion: my previous posts show that. But it's only an opinion. And some cameras could perfectly have been mounted with spare parts made previously.
So, I regret the recent (and important) modifications of the wiki, which turn opinions into facts. It's for me only a question of rule: I don't discuss on what was written.
Jacques. |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2016 : 09:08:32 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by levonsa
I do not know why the author pointed out the evacuation to the city of Yoshkar-Ola. In the book, 50 and 75 years of plant FED indicated Berdsk.
Thanks to Zoom and I found this:
http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/misc/gko-docs.html#n374
Order #374 from August 2nd, 1941. Building a new plant #297 in Yoschkar-Ola Mari ASSR now called Mari Machine Works.
Where to put all the equipment. They built a new plant.
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Jacques M.
France
2653 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2016 : 11:46:01 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lenny
Thanks to Zoom and I found this:
http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/misc/gko-docs.html#n374
Order #374 from August 2nd, 1941. Building a new plant #297 in Yoschkar-Ola Mari ASSR now called Mari Machine Works.
Bravo!
Jacques. |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2016 : 12:09:18 PM
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In the wiki of Fed-1e was stated that according to Princelle the evacuation started on September 5th, 1941.
But there's order #681. The evacuation was ordered on September 16th.
http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/misc/gko-docs.html#n681
11 more days to produce the last Fed-1e. Now they needed only to produce 586 cameras per week if #183892 is the last Fed-1e. That's pretty doable and gives time for even a #185xxx.
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2016 : 12:14:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Alfa2
This will not solve our problem but I saw FED produced shortly after 210 000. It had vulcanite from FED NKAP. Maybe it will be possible to find it and place a photo here.
Alfa, why do you want a photo, vulcanite housings can easily be changed.
There is #210235 with stretched stripes vulcanite as Jacques would call it
and also #200347 with snowflake vulcanite as Alexey would call it.
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4265 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - May 05 2016 : 12:22:30 PM
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| Alexey, Lenny, I'm still hung up on the Yoshkar-Ola.. Berdsk is 2500km east of that city! I guess it's possible that FED with its equipment didn't fit entirely into Yoshkar-Ola plant and was moved further and camera/optical division ended up in Berdsk.. strange.. |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2016 : 12:52:17 PM
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Jacques, I think what I changed and added in the wiki still leaves room for phantasies if someone want to have some. But I think we should not hide the facts and the facts are massive. I think I didn't put my opinion into the wiki, but facts. Also corrected some mistakes and everything started with the database which was a mess before. But everybody is free and should add other facts to the wiki, it's important, that's also why we have this interesting thread.
- I calculated how many cameras could have been produced till evacuation, a #185000 would be possible.
- Besides that we know passports and I was same skeptical that most passports came from DVD. But they look original to me, and they match the timeline. #180024 is not a passport, at least not what I saw, but even without it calculations would come to the same results.
- There is this photo from Berdsk stating they produced the FIRST Fed in January/Febuary 1946.
- Before, as Zoom told us, they were not allowed to produce cameras, order #2445. The photo mentioning the FIRST Fed makes sense.
- The FED equipment, engineers and technicians were transferred to KMZ and KOMZ in late 1942, order #2445.
- I have my own late Fed-1e now, I'm sure it's an original one, it looks so good, works so well, I doubt they could have made it in Berdsk from scratch.
- I left the passage in the wiki that even Fed-1d with serials up to #176000 could be made in Berdsk. This possibility is really funny now. With the information we have now this passage would have never been posted in the wiki.
Facts which all make sense together.
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2016 : 1:56:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Niko80
Also I'd like to point out that I am now the owner of the FED"e" #180024 with the corresponding documents. If there is any information I can provide just let me know.
Regards,
Christian
Hi Christian,
the documents I saw are not a dated passport. What I saw was a small paper dated 31/July/1941, maybe a documentation that the camera was complete and checked. Are there other dated documents?
Thanks |
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levonsa
levonsa
Russia
248 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2016 : 2:44:50 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lenny
quote:
Originally posted by Alfa2
This will not solve our problem but I saw FED produced shortly after 210 000. It had vulcanite from FED NKAP. Maybe it will be possible to find it and place a photo here.
Alfa, why do you want a photo, vulcanite housings can easily be changed.
There is #210235 with stretched stripes vulcanite as Jacques would call it
and also #200347 with snowflake vulcanite as Alexey would call it.
Lenny! Camera ФЭД №210340 have classical vulcanite. |
Edited by - levonsa on May 05 2016 2:45:59 PM |
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Alfa2
Poland
349 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2016 : 3:22:50 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lenny
Alfa, why do you want a photo, vulcanite housings can easily be changed.
There is #210235 with stretched stripes vulcanite as Jacques would call it
and also #200347 with snowflake vulcanite as Alexey would call it.
Sorry, I have written this not exactely clear. I meant I should find my camera and place a photo here. But problem for me is to find the camera because I don't know where I have it. I haven't seen the FED for many years.
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Jacques M.
France
2653 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2016 : 4:21:24 PM
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Lenny,
I don't say you are wrong. I just say you are too in a hurry.
Of course,you do what you want with the wiki. As anybody who is able to add something. Or to change something if he is not OK with what you wrote. As for me, I will never "correct" what is written by somebody else, without discussion, and it's for me a question of principle. And of credibility too. Note that I'm not the author of the Fed 1e page...
The wiki is a space of certitude, and the threads a space of discussion. So, now, about what is written.
-No calculation will tell us exactly what happened. We just can be sure that the material for some 10000 1e were made at Kharkov before september 1941. We cannot be sure where the cameras were mounted. All or partly in Kharkov? That's the point.
-I don't understand your skepticism about the Fed S 180024. It's one of the rare original documents, and you doubt of it.
-The photo was taken at Berdsk's. Right. But we don't know in which conditions. Nor what the different persons do exactly. They look much more engineers presenting cameras. Publicity or else? And which camera?
-Zoom is OK, of course. Nevertheless, I point that he changed his mind lately. Before, it was impossible, for him, to accept that KMZ had received any parts from Fed.
-I'm happy to know that the Fed equipment was, at least partially, tranferred to KMZ: it is what I guessed. But is it now a fact or always an affirmation?
I'm happy for you that you have your own original 1e. I think too that's important to have cameras in the hands to write about them. As for me, I think (guess!) that:
-The parts for 1e-s were totally made before the september 1941 at Kharkov.
-They were mounted totally or partially in Kharkov,
-Some Feds could have been mounted at Berdsk, during the war, for local or other reasons,
-KMZ and Arsenal received Fed parts to mount their own Fed-KMZ and Fed-Arsenal. But what? And through which ways?
-Red Flags were made in 1946 at Berdsk's.
A bit worried by this discussion. I will let you with your "facts" and the wiki. But I always keep some reasonable doubts. One of them being: why were these cameras called "Berdsk" if none of them were made at Berdsk? And why were the NKVD 1d (between 173600/176000) called "return from Berdsk"? Only imagination or fantasy?
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Edited by - Jacques M. on May 05 2016 4:33:21 PM |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2016 : 5:46:03 PM
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Jacques,
I think it was time to update something. There will never be the final version and we can change everything at any time. If anybody finds a mistake in the wiki it should be corrected directly. It's impossible to know who wrote what in the wiki, at least for me.
What is the highest serial number for a 1e in your database? If there were so many top plates made unassembled we should have found them already. As I said before, left over parts were transferred to KMZ and they recycled everything.
I ask about the passport of #180024 because someone mentioned it in the wiki. If there is no passport I would like to correct the mistake. I think too that the papers I saw about #180024 look original, I don't doubt them, I used them for my calculation. I only would like to be correct in the wiki.
Jacques, you often talk about the shutter crates, that some are made of brass and some of alloy. Which parts do you check, only the base plate of the shutter crate? You said #115000 till #184000 are made of alloy, #200000 till #223000 are made of brass. So brass crates should be postwar, right. I just checked some of my Feds and think there might be something interesting to talk about. Seems my #182393 is brass and should be postwar then. My #221333 is alloy, my #242xxx is brass. I need to check some others. Maybe Fed used both types at the same time.
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levonsa
levonsa
Russia
248 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2016 : 5:47:38 PM
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| Jacques, do not worry! I'll try to answer your questions on my website. The article will be in Russian, but I think if Vlad and our other guys will help all to translate it into English. |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2016 : 6:07:50 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Alfa2
Sorry, I have written this not exactely clear. I meant I should find my camera and place a photo here. But problem for me is to find the camera because I don't know where I have it. I haven't seen the FED for many years.
Don't say sorry Alfa, search for it tomorrow and everything is fine. I want to see it |
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Alfa2
Poland
349 Posts |
Posted - May 06 2016 : 03:53:15 AM
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I will try to search for it on the coming weekend.
Regarding vulcanite there are some rules but there are exceptions too. I saw original vulcanite of FED NKVD but not black, the colour was like coffe with milk. We had discussion about it with my colleague - art historian who is really interesred in old FEDs.
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Jacques M.
France
2653 Posts |
Posted - May 06 2016 : 07:16:43 AM
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Lenny,
OK,OK.
For me, what is written is conclusive. I am of the generation of paper which could not change their reference books several times a year...
That said, I agree with you at, let us say 90% with what you wrote. Especially about Berdsks which were not made at Berdsk and KMZ which used Fed parts. I had said all that (I was not alone!) in 2013 and earlier. I just wonder what happened so that these ideas have something of official now? Zoom's article? With all the respect due to him, it's not enough. Proofs need documents, and I don't see any. Perhaps I missed something?
Now, my doubts. I had made the same calculation as you and my personal conclusions were just at the opposite. With the declaration of war and the run of the German Army towards the east, it seemed difficult to prepare the evacuation in emergency, while making around 4000 cameras, all that in two months or so. It's why I think Fed could have achieved quickly all the parts for the entire Fed e series, without mounting all of them. The final mounting job for the remaining batch of cameras could have been made at Berdsk's or elsewhere: not difficult when all the needed parts are available.
That said, you may be right too.
In fact, I globally think that we miss original documents to be as affirmative as you are. Paradoxally, the best documented camera in this period is the Fed-Arsenal! For the moment, and as far as I know...
I check my cameras about your brass/alloy question.
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Jacques M.
France
2653 Posts |
Posted - May 06 2016 : 07:34:53 AM
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After a quick glance, I confirm what I have already written:
- brass shutter crates up to s/n c. 115000,
- alloy up to the end of 1e series,
- brass for my personal NKAP Red Flag,
- brass for the 1f series, up to 250000,
- alloy after.
Note that the limits are those I observe on my personal cameras. And certainly, there could be mixed parts, specially after WW2. |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 06 2016 : 08:09:34 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
After a quick glance, I confirm what I have already written:
- brass shutter crates up to s/n c. 115000,
- alloy up to the end of 1e series,
- brass for my personal NKAP Red Flag,
- brass for the 1f series, up to 250000,
- alloy after.
Note that the limits are those I observe on my personal cameras. And certainly, there could be mixed parts, specially after WW2.
Thanks Jacques,
so you check only the bottom plate of the shutter crate, right.
Strange, so my #182393 could be a fake which I doubt, could be postwar which I doubt too, and my #221333 is also a mystery. Both I got very cheap
We need more samples for brass and alloy crates in the serial range #170.000 till #250.000 please. |
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Zoom
602 Posts |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 08 2016 : 06:48:46 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Zoom
But I don't understand why the plant No.297 NKV in Yoshkar-Ola emerged in the discussion...
The plant No.296 NKAP was sent to Berdsk by the GKO Order No.681.
Hello Zoom,
02.08.1941 they started building plant #297 Yoschkar-Ola (order #374).
16.09.1941 they ordered the evacuation to Berdsk (order #681) when building the new Yoschkar-Ola plant wasn't finished yet.
Yoschkar-Ola might be on the way to Berdsk and at some point in time the new plant was built. If there is a new plant available it saves much time to store the Fed equipment there.
Then there is the paper Alexey posted. Maybe there are some orders we don't know about yet. |
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Zoom
602 Posts |
Posted - May 08 2016 : 09:34:49 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lenny
Yoschkar-Ola might be on the way to Berdsk...
I do not know how to comment on it...
Nope.
P. S. It is impossible to consider this delirium:
http://ussrphoto.com/UserContent/352016_IMG_0002.jpg
as a reliable source!
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Edited by - Zoom on May 08 2016 09:58:03 AM |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
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Alfa2
Poland
349 Posts |
Posted - May 08 2016 : 1:28:37 PM
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I promised to place photo of my FED. It's number is 210 193. Hmmm, strange camera.
Here they are.
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Edited by - Alfa2 on May 08 2016 1:29:24 PM |
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Jacques M.
France
2653 Posts |
Posted - May 08 2016 : 2:36:39 PM
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Exceptional!
The NKAP vulcanite, and the prewar release button!
One of the very first 1f...
Congrats, Alfa! Jacques. |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 08 2016 : 4:15:29 PM
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Thank you so much Alfa,
what a beauty. How many years do you have it?
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 08 2016 : 4:20:49 PM
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Sad, it's not working, right?
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Edited by - Lenny on May 08 2016 7:50:31 PM |
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Alfa2
Poland
349 Posts |
Posted - May 09 2016 : 01:46:56 AM
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Thank you Jacques, thank you Lenny.
I have the FED about 15 years. Unfortunately it is not working now but it was working when I bought it. I think this is only problem with glue which is used for a shutter ribbon to glue it to a roller. Good that the FED is complete and I will fix it during winter when my repairman has less orders than during summer.
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 09 2016 : 02:46:28 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Alfa2
Thank you Jacques, thank you Lenny.
I have the FED about 15 years. Unfortunately it is not working now but it was working when I bought it. I think this is only problem with glue which is used for a shutter ribbon to glue it to a roller. Good that the FED is complete and I will fix it during winter when my repairman has less orders than during summer.
I had that problem too on a Zorki-C, the glue wasn't strong enough on the drum. But good you have someone to fix it.
Great you have it for so many years, it's kind of a reference to be original. And #210235 has this stretched stripes vulcanite too, so it match with it. |
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Alfa2
Poland
349 Posts |
Posted - May 09 2016 : 04:05:21 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lenny
And #210235 has this stretched stripes vulcanite too, so it match with it.
That's great. I had the same doubts.
What about the lens S/N ? It seems to be OK, FED 210 193 and the lens number 217 - little bit greater.
Seems they started lenses numbering from the beginning with FED 210 000.
What do you think ?
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Edited by - Alfa2 on May 09 2016 04:06:40 AM |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 09 2016 : 04:51:25 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Alfa2
What about the lens S/N ? It seems to be OK, FED 210 193 and the lens number 217 - little bit greater.
Seems they started lenses numbering from the beginning with FED 210 000.
What do you think ?
I don't know what Fed did with the lens serial numbers, especially when they are not stamped at the lock. I guess 217 is a kind of batch number only and it didn't get a real serial number. But since they just started with #210000 you could be right. Maybe we will know more about lens serials one day. |
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Jacques M.
France
2653 Posts |
Posted - May 09 2016 : 05:02:34 AM
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I think too it's a batch number (or a control number) rather a real serial number, by the s/n of lenses I know on other Fed 1f.
Jacques. |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 09 2016 : 07:41:55 AM
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There is also a lens number on the lever but the lens needs to be screwd out off the helicoid to see this number.
It would be really interesting to resolve the secret of Fed lens numbers, but thousands of numbers would be needed.
This could be a challenge for ussrphoto.com with its thousand members. |
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Alfa2
Poland
349 Posts |
Posted - May 09 2016 : 10:46:23 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lenny
There is also a lens number on the lever but the lens needs to be screwd out off the helicoid to see this number.
I have checked the number. It is also 217. This confirms somehow it is not serial as you wrote it isn't. So this is lens without S/N.
quote:
Originally posted by Lenny
This could be a challenge for ussrphoto.com with its thousand members.
Great, we will have subject to talk about for next 10 years.
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 09 2016 : 3:56:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Alfa2
Great, we will have subject to talk about for next 10 years.
That's for sure ... if you search every weekend in your boxes for some forgotten gems. I wonder about the other cameras you have. Poland is still a good place to get some great cameras. |
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levonsa
levonsa
Russia
248 Posts |
Posted - May 09 2016 : 4:48:23 PM
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FED #210033 ____ leans #209
FED #210073 ____ leans #3
FED #210193 ____ leans #211
FED #210266 ____ leans #6
FED #210437 ____ leans #26A |
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Alfa2
Poland
349 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2016 : 03:09:07 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lenny
That's for sure ... if you search every weekend in your boxes for some forgotten gems. I wonder about the other cameras you have. Poland is still a good place to get some great cameras.
Polish market was good place to get some great cameras 15 years ago and earlier. Now you can buy here boring things like AF digital equipment or manual not branded (i mean branded by Makinon or Albinar) staff.
And I'd like to have such boxes with many forgotten gems but unfortunalely I don't have them. 
By this what levonsa has written the lens number defintely has nothing to do with camera S/N.
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levonsa
levonsa
Russia
248 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2016 : 03:53:19 AM
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| I thought you only bikers in Poland are not allowed. There is no place for politics, there are the facts! FED #210033 + lens №209 - it's attestat! Or a certificate of your too, is of no importance? |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2016 : 04:27:25 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by levonsa
FED #210033 + lens №209 - it's attestat! Or a certificate of your too, is of no importance?
Alexey, where is #209 stamped? At the lock or away from the lock?
I think if you have to write a passport, you take the number which you can see. But there might be hundred lenses with #209. Can't be a real serial number. |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2016 : 04:46:23 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Alfa2
Polish market was good place to get some great cameras 15 years ago and earlier.
There is this Polish guy in Scottland, 'vintagefotos' on ebay, and he has many other ebay accounts. He often buys in Poland and then sells it for much more in UK. Poland is definitely a place where many Zorkis were sold in the 1950s.
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Alfa2
Poland
349 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2016 : 09:41:06 AM
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Yes Lenny, but Zorkis which were sold in Poland in 50's are absolutely regular ones and there are not so many of them. Big amount of really interesting cameras was imported to Poland in 90's. On our market there is a lot of e.g. Zorki 4 which were officially imported.
I think I know the guy but I have to ask him about his nick on ebay.
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Edited by - Alfa2 on May 10 2016 09:42:08 AM |
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levonsa
levonsa
Russia
248 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2016 : 1:23:31 PM
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Strange, but I have always believed that if the passport number of the lens is written such that it lenses all the same room! And not fiction forum participants!
Lenny, you are doing a lot for the order on the site. It's great! But I also like the position of the wise Jacques! You should never jump to conclusions faster, especially when it comes to the Soviet production. We must weigh everything, consult with all together and make a decision!
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1052016_2.jpg
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2016 : 2:46:13 PM
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Alexey, thanks for the close up photo of the passport.
But you must admit that the first Industar-10 #209 made from Fed should be from the year 1934, a 1-turn lens. Then at some point in time, when Fed changed the serial system, there should be many other Industar-10 also with #209. Helpful would be a close up photo from the back of the lens with the whole M39 ring shown, and maybe even the number on the lever, but the lens needs to be screwed out off the helicoid. I hope we will know more about this I-10 serial system one day.
Thanks |
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Geoff O.
geoffox23
Australia
54 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2016 : 2:54:41 PM
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Lenny
You are comparing prewar with postwar numbering.
Postwar, lens numbering restarted and seems to have no logical system to tie to bodies.
Cheers |
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Jacques M.
France
2653 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2016 : 2:58:37 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by geoffox23
Lenny
You are comparing prewar with postwar numbering.
Postwar, lens numbering restarted and seems to have no logical system to tie to bodies.
Cheers
Yes! Thanks. Jacques. |
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levonsa
levonsa
Russia
248 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2016 : 3:02:50 PM
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| geoffox23 thanks for the help! I'm a little tired to explain to the children about the new post-war numbering lenses. By the way the camera itself will start with the new numbering 210,000. |
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Jacques M.
France
2653 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2016 : 3:05:03 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by levonsa
geoffox23 thanks for the help! I'm a little tired to explain to the children about the new post-war numbering lenses. By the way the camera itself will start with the new numbering 210,000.
Jacques. |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2016 : 3:29:41 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by geoffox23
Lenny
You are comparing prewar with postwar numbering.
Postwar, lens numbering restarted and seems to have no logical system to tie to bodies.
Cheers
No, I'm not comparing them, but there should be only ONE serial for each lens and not hundrets. To me, this is a kind of batch number, especially when it's not stamped at the lock.
For example, how did KMZ arrange the serial numbers. There could be TWO I-22 with the same serial #5211929, but one is with 'mm' from 1952 and the other is with 'cm' from 1955. It's still possible to separate them. There is only ONE serial for each I-22.
These I-22 are postwar too and are interchangeable on all Zorkis and each has it's own serial and isn't tied to any body. |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2016 : 3:36:02 PM
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Maybe a lens serial number wasn't important for Fed at some point. There are even 50/2 lenses without serial number before the war. It seems Fed didn't need the serials and the numbers stamped have a special meaning, for example to help regulation.
Then there is the girl who has to package the cameras and to write the passport and she writes what is given. But it's not a serial number!!! |
Edited by - Lenny on May 10 2016 3:37:28 PM |
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Jacques M.
France
2653 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2016 : 4:27:56 PM
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Of course the serial numbers had a great importance for Fed! Like of any FSU production! If some (rare) lenses don't have numbers, we don't know why.
At this point, I don't understand really what we say, but perhaps it's not important
I just point that the first Fed lenses were 1 turn ones. They were numbered in very tiny ciphers too, which cannot be confused with postwar ones.
That said, by the passport showed by Alexey, the "209" seems a serial number, or I don't understand what is written before. It's "objective = lens", no? Or can it really be "batch of objectives?" Or anything else? We have to take that in consideration and think of what it will lead to. For me, at least, rather than thinking of who had written that...
Jacques.
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Edited by - Jacques M. on May 10 2016 4:34:33 PM |
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Zoom
602 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2016 : 07:36:05 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
That said, I agree with you at, let us say 90% with what you wrote. Especially about Berdsks which were not made at Berdsk and KMZ which used Fed parts. I had said all that (I was not alone!) in 2013 and earlier. I just wonder what happened so that these ideas have something of official now? Zoom's article? With all the respect due to him, it's not enough. Proofs need documents, and I don't see any. Perhaps I missed something?
I did not notice right away ... If we are talking about the article "ZENIT: prehistory", then there is all based on the documents. |
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Jacques M.
France
2653 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2016 : 09:31:54 AM
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Zoom,
Happy to know that there are documents which prove that there were no Fed made at Berdsk during the war. My question was in fact more extensive: can we affirm that there were no Fed mounted during the war, at Berdsk or elsewhere? Are there documents too to prove that?
Thanks. Jacques. |
Edited by - Jacques M. on May 12 2016 09:34:11 AM |
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Zoom
602 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2016 : 4:59:41 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
Happy to know that there are documents which prove that there were no Fed made at Berdsk during the war.
This article is not about the production of cameras in Berdsk. But, indeed, the FED production on the plant No.296 NKAP has been discontinued. The plant is fully switched to military production.
quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
My question was in fact more extensive: can we affirm that there were no Fed mounted during the war, at Berdsk or elsewhere? Are there documents too to prove that?
The FED factory (No.296 NKAP) gave all its optical part according the GKO order No.2445 (23 October 1942).
http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/misc/gko-2445.html
All optical equipment, materials and so on were taken away. Nevertheless, a certain number of cameras left. According to the factory's history book, the plant began to assemble cameras in 1946, as I remember. But there is no documentary evidence to the cameras assembly before February 1946...
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Edited by - Zoom on May 13 2016 12:46:49 AM |
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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
2006 Posts
My Collection
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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
2006 Posts
My Collection
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Jacques M.
France
2653 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 12:25:19 AM
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Thanks Zoom.
So, we are always at the same point, more or less. If I try to summarize:
All the Fed 1e could have been completely produced at Kharkov before evacuation. That said, the timing seems unrealistic by the passports we have (I have added dates and numbers found on Alexey's site):
- s/n 164716 : 18/3/41,
- s/n 168018 : 18/6/41,
- s/n 175118 : 21/6/41,
- s/n 175524 : 21/6/41,
- s/n 181100 : 30/7/41,
- s/n 180024 (S):31/7/41.
To produce 12000 cameras in 45 days is impossible. Were some cameras mounted elsewhere? Or are there "big" holes in the numbering, as the JLP suggests?
It is unlikely that cameras were produced at Berdsk's plant during the war. On the other hand, it's not completely impossible that some were only mounted from parts coming from Kharkov, after the evacuation.
All the remaining materials were transferred to Krasnogorsk in 1942. So, KMZ too could have played his part concerning the mounting of Fed 1e after the war. After all, there is no real difference in quality between Fed-Zorkis and Fed 1e.
Berdsk produced the NKAP "Red Flag", probably from already existing spare parts, in 1946.
Arsenal produced the Fed-Arsenal in 1946-47, in very small numbers, from existing and "home" made parts.
Fed-Kharkov resumed the production in june 1948 (the first Fed 1f).
What an entangled story... The main question remains of course the place of production/mounting for the 1e. We only have hypothesis, absolutely no certitude... Certainly, we miss a major fact?
Amitiés. Jacques.
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Edited by - Jacques M. on May 13 2016 06:55:01 AM |
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Zoom
602 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 12:47:38 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Luiz Paracampo
Link does not work
Corrected, sorry. |
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Zoom
602 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 12:58:04 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
All the remaining materials were transferred to Krasnogorsk in 1942.
No. A personnel only. Their number is not known (a list of the names is incomplete). A few dozen people (maximum)... |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 05:43:24 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
the timing seems unrealistic by the passports we have (I have added dates and numbers found on Alexey's site):
- s/n 175118 : 21/6/41,
- s/n 181100 : 30/7/41,
To produce 12000 cameras in 45 days is impossible.
All the remaining materials were transferred to Krasnogorsk in 1942.
Jacques, as I understood it the Fed equipment was transferred to KOMZ in November 1942 and was stored there till it was transferred to Arsenal in Febuary 1945. KMZ might have gotten everything after Arsenal stopped producing as Altix assumed.
Why do you think of 12000 cameras?
Where did you find those 2 passports? |
Edited by - Lenny on May 13 2016 05:51:58 AM |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 05:56:54 AM
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Jacques, now I understand why 12000. Forget about this passport #168018, it is out off the line of other passports.
It could simply be that they wrote 18 VI 1941 instead of 18 IV 1941 for #168018. |
Edited by - Lenny on May 13 2016 06:35:11 AM |
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Jacques M.
France
2653 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 06:42:27 AM
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quote:
Why do you think of 12000 cameras?
181100 - 168018 # 13000 cameras in 42 days. Of course impossible.
And 7000 cameras in 3 days it's impossible too!
The passport of the S s/n 180024 was established on a Kharkov paper. We don't know for the others.
Of course, the passports can have been filled in a hurry after the parts were made for the corresponding cameras. But it doesn't enlighten the whole question.
We have a real problem of comprehension between number of cameras/passports/location of production concerning these Fed 1e.
Jacques. |
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Jacques M.
France
2653 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 06:53:35 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lenny
Jacques, now I understand why 12000. Forget about this passport #168018, it is out off the line of other passports.
It could simply be that they wrote 18 VI 1941 instead of 18 IV 1941 for #168018.
There, I cannot follow you. I postule that the only way to understand the situation is to follow the documents we have, not to criticize them. Even if they don't make us pleasure!
BTW, I have found, always on Alexey's site, the s/n 175524, with the same date of 21/6/41... It goes towards the same way. I add it in my precedent listing.
Jacques. |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 07:21:34 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
I postule that the only way to understand the situation is to follow the documents we have, not to criticize them.
Of course, but we have to check if the numbers are possible.
From #164716 till #168018 they produced 252 cameras per week according to the passports, very less.
From #168018 till #175118 they produced 17750 per week. Easy to recognize a mistake here.
But from #164716 till #175118 they produced 765 cameras per week. This is possible and seems very accurate.
Just forget about passport #168018. Also forget about passport #181100. Calculate from #180024 till the last in the wiki #183892 and it's 586 cameras per week till evacuation.
Now if we calculate with 765 per week from #180024 till evacuation a camera #185073 could be possible. So we are pretty much on the safe side that all were produced in Kharkov before evacuation. |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 07:38:46 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lenny
From #164716 till #168018 they produced 252 cameras per week according to the passports, very less.
From #168018 till #175118 they produced 17750 per week. Easy to recognize a mistake here.
If we calculate with month IV (April) instead of VI (June) we will get an amazing result. What I quoted above will change to THIS.
From #164716 till #168018 they produced 750 cameras per week.
From #168018 till #175118 they produced 780 per week.
Amazing right
It's just a human mistake, who is used to write with roman figures. |
Edited by - Lenny on May 13 2016 07:41:22 AM |
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Jacques M.
France
2653 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 07:55:20 AM
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What can I say?
You are funny, Lenny. You chose the passports which agree you. And you ask me to forget two of them. But I cannot!
I think we have questions to put concerning the passports and their exact correlation with cameras. This period june/september 1941 was exceptional, and Fed could have used urgency procedures...
Jacques.
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 08:02:46 AM
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Jacques, there could be other possibilities.
Imagine, camera #168018 was produced and didn't pass the quality control, so it had to be repaired.
We should follow of course the passports we have, but not all. If the majority of passport match our calculation we are pretty much on the right side.
Also we have to understand how the serials were produced. For examle serial #160000 was engraved and was put in an big empty bucket. Later #160999 was engraved and was put on top of the bucket which is now full of engraved top plates. Next step in production is assembling. It starts with the top plate on top of the bucket, #160999. Much later top plate #160000 was assembled.
That's why passports #180024 and #181100 can both be true, even if passport #181100 was written the day before. But we calculate with #180024 till evacuation which is much harder than if we calculated with #181100. |
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Jacques M.
France
2653 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 08:10:19 AM
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quote:
If the majority of passport match our calculation we are pretty much on the right side.
Just no. |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 08:25:10 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
You are funny, Lenny. You chose the passports which agree you. And you ask me to forget two of them. But I cannot!
I think we have questions to put concerning the passports and their exact correlation with cameras. This period june/september 1941 was exceptional, and Fed could have used urgency procedures...
Jacques, there is no correct correlation as some might think. As we can see, #181100 was produced 1 day before #180024. But we are very correct if we say they were both made in July. #168018 is just an bad example to calculate with, but we know they were not able to produce 7100 cameras within 3 days. We know it's impossible to produce cameras consecutive to their serials. Then there is the quality control which put some cameras on hold. We are pretty much on the right side with all other passports. |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 08:31:25 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
quote:
If the majority of passport match our calculation we are pretty much on the right side.
Just no.
Then you have to believe that they produced 7100 cameras in 3 days (#168018-#175118). And in this case you are VERY WRONG.
And you have to believe that they produced 3302 cameras in 92 days (#164716-#168018). |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 08:40:26 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
The passport of the S s/n 180024 was established on a Kharkov paper. We don't know for the others.
We have a real problem of comprehension between number of cameras/passports/location of production concerning these Fed 1e.
#164716 is Lesopark 54 too. I have a photo. |
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Jacques M.
France
2653 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 09:02:55 AM
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We just have to try and understand. Not to correct anything.
But all that is boring. Once more time, that turns into a personal quarrel. I am not interested.
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 09:22:53 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
We just have to try and understand. Not to correct anything.
But all that is boring. Once more time, that turns into a personal quarrel. I am not interested.
Yes, we have to understand that lower serial numbers are also at the bottom of the bucket during production and will be assembled later. We have to understand that quality control can put cameras on hold. We have to understand that there are not only engraving errors with digits missing or digits added, there can also be errors when writting VI instead of IV on a passport. But all information together shows a very accurate picture which is enough to know what kind of production was possible at that time. |
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Jacques M.
France
2653 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 11:48:29 AM
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Bravo for this personal interpretation with buckets, quality control and errors of writing! It's a long time since I have been keen on Feds, and I never saw so clearly how they worked inside the factory. Thanks!
That said, once more, it is always not completely impossible that Fed 1e were entirely made in Kharkov. But, even if there can be a mistake (!), I go on doubting, specially for the last 2-3000 last ones for which we don't have passport. We can suppose that the emergency was rather on the evacuation. But I repeat myself and now this discussion is finished for me, unless there is a new fact, of course! |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 12:23:30 PM
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Jacques, I forgot where I saw it, but I saw a photo of Zorki production when they molded the top plates I think, and there was a bucket so big that a person could hide in it Sure Zorki was real mass production.
Jacques, it seems you never saw passport #168018. I can tell you, I never saw it too. I might have gotten the information about #168018 from the wiki. As long as we don't have prove that this passport exists we should put the information on hold. Maybe someone from the BFM put that information there. Do you know the BFM, the Berdsk Fake Mafia. Then this Mafia spread the news that even Fed-1d were produced in Berdsk and they set up a table with information about Joschkar-Ola, which Zoom calls a not reliable sourse and a piece made in delirium.
But I can tell you, I saw the passport #164716. |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 12:39:41 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
Bravo for this personal interpretation with buckets
Jacques, please check Princelle's book, page 124 ok, they don't look like buckets, more like container |
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Zoom
602 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 3:54:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lenny
...and they set up a table with information about Joschkar-Ola, which Zoom calls a not reliable sourse and a piece made in delirium.
The Kinap plant from Odessa was transferred to the plant No.297 NKV in Yoshkar-Ola.
Used documents:
GKO Order No.374ss -- August 2, 1941.
GKO Order No.681ss -- September 16, 1941.
Cited also: The Economic Council of the SNK USSR Order No.1880-564s -- December 6, 1940.
Source: Russian State Archive of Socio-Political History (RGASPI), fund (ôîíä): 644, inventory (îïèñü): 2, cases (äåëî): 10 (list 39, par. 16) and 18 (list 84).
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Edited by - Zoom on May 13 2016 4:08:33 PM |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2016 : 10:09:15 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
BTW, I have found, always on Alexey's site, the s/n 175524, with the same date of 21/6/41... It goes towards the same way. I add it in my precedent listing.
So the passports of #175118 and #175524 were written on the same day. At first sight people might think that they also wrote all other passports between those two serials on the same day. But that might not be the case. Cameras didn't finish production consecutive to their serials. They were only consecutive engraved during production.
These 2 cameras finished production 12 weeks before evacuation. A production of #183892 (last 1e in the wiki) before evacuation seems possible. They were able to produce 9000 cameras in 12 weeks. |
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Elnur Mehdiyev
elnur
Russia
12 Posts |
Posted - May 14 2016 : 3:16:35 PM
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Good evening guys! why do you think that this is the date of manufacture? I now intended that this date of packaging. and the production of the marriage took place, in consequence of that, some parties came back to troubleshoot.
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 14 2016 : 5:32:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by elnur
Good evening guys! why do you think that this is the date of manufacture? I now intended that this date of packaging. and the production of the marriage took place, in consequence of that, some parties came back to troubleshoot.
Hello Elnur,
I don't exactly understand what you want to say,
but congratulations to your FIRST POST. |
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4265 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - May 15 2016 : 12:32:09 AM
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Welcome Elnur, it's great to have another big FED expert in our midst! What Elnur is trying to say ( I had earlier conversation with him) is that the dates on passports are not the dates of manufacture but the dates of sale. Not all of batches of these cameras would get sold at the same time. These dates on passports are filled in when the cameras are sold, sometimes they would be sold in different sequence and sometimes would sit on shelves of the store for a while so the dates are not actual manufacture dates. Also when cameras are returned to factory for repair because of defects they would get issued new dates on passports.
It's a pleasure and honor to have you here, Elnur! I hope to see more of your participation!
Vlad |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2016 : 02:38:20 AM
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Thanks Elnur.
This makes sense, that the passports were written when the cameras were packaged for sale.
It doesn't make sense that passport dates were written in advance, because once they needed to package the cameras they would need to search for the passports, when writing a passport just takes 1 minute.
Of course the cameras were not sold consecutive to their serial numbers. Cameras with higher serials could be sold earlier.
Later this might have changed little bit when they only wrote the month and year in the passports.
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Edited by - Lenny on May 15 2016 02:41:43 AM |
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Jacques M.
France
2653 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2016 : 03:54:42 AM
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Thanks, Vlad, and welcome to you, Elnur!
So, passports show the date of sale. That completely changes the point of view, of course! No possibility to calculate a precise production from the serial numbers, for example. And the 1e were very probably made entirely before the evacuation. No more problem, unless perhaps about the last ones. Were they sold too? When? Always before evacuation? Or reserved to the Red Army, as I had guessed somewhere, half by joke?
No doubt you will help us to put some missing pieces on this entangled puzzle, Elnur. Thanks...
Amitiés. Jacques. |
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Elnur Mehdiyev
elnur
Russia
12 Posts |
Posted - May 16 2016 : 09:58:25 AM
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Thank You all for the warm welcome! I am very pleased )
About packing cameras. I'm certainly not a historian, and do not have enough facts to say it all. But a fresh idea will not harm us. I did not mean that the passports were written in advance. But on the contrary that there had been a batch of cameras, which later had to undergo some checking. After the devices are tested, Packed and were issued certificates. And the devices that were problematic were returned for repair. And possibly from the earlier numbers, but with the late date in the certificate. I think that's why there's the confusion. |
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Topic |
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Fed Berdsk - Known Examples
