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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
2002 Posts
My Collection
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 Posted - Jan 29 2008 : 03:57:58 AM
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Olynek!
I believe this is a pre set lens! Try to move diphagm ring axially (pressing) towards the camera mount side,while previously placing the ring at 3,5. Then turn the ring to any aperture. The ring will move only from 3.5 up to the new set number. This lens is a pre-set type with a single ring. Very similar to Meyer pre-ser lenses. I have an identical type and it so works.
Regards
LP |
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okynek
759 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2008 : 7:40:20 PM
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Thanks Luiz! You are absolutely right! After few tries I found how to preset aperture  Manuals would be helpful, but lens came without one. The other interesting thing what I found that "Made in Russia" label printed on ugly removable sticker(see pictures). First I did not pay attention to such small detail, and suddenly I understand that lens made in 1993 in Kazan, the year when Russia was specially week and Kazan – capital of Tatar Stan was pressing for independence. So KoMZ did not know what to expect and sticker probably was used to easy change country of origin if needed. Pretty funny if this is true and sudden remainder about zigzags of history. |
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Zoom
596 Posts |
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okynek
759 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2008 : 07:56:57 AM
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That is very interesting remark Zoom! I do not mind change "MS" on "MC" at all, in fact before I posted this entry I was uncertain how should I name this lens?: "Jupiter-37AM" - same way as every other lens named in this category, or "MS Jupiter 37 AM" as it say on the label and on the lens? So this also in question.
But returning to MS/MC issue. According to beginning of the article mentioned above we should translate names as they pronounced. So Russian 'C' should became 'S' using Latin (not in English) letters, and MC then become MS, right?
But later in same article explained that 'MC' means "mnogosloynuy" or "multi coated" and have to be translated in English (not in Latin) as MC.
So question to all members what should we do? How should we call this lens? And what should we do with names translation in future ? |
Edited by - okynek on Jan 31 2008 10:16:01 PM |
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okynek
759 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2008 : 08:14:45 AM
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By the way, seems that manufactory was not certain about name easer 
After close look I found that MC letters are engraved while rest of the name (and all other numbers except serial number) are silk screened. So MC probably was added later on. My guess to distinguish this lens from same lenses made by other places? Or perhaps because name copyrights? |
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Zoom
596 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2008 : 09:56:07 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by okynek
According to begriming of the article mentioned above we should translate names as they pronounced. So Russian 'C' should became 'S' using Latin (not in English) letters, and MC then become MS, right?
No.
"MC" index in Russian lenses names -- in latin (roman) letters!
See http://www.zenitcamera.com/qa/qa-indexes.html
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Zoom
596 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2008 : 10:07:07 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by okynek
After close look I found that MC letters are engraved while rest of the name (and all other numbers except serial number) are silk screened. So MC probably was added later on. My guess to distinguish this lens from same lenses made by other places? Or perhaps because name copyrights?
Because there were two variants: one with a simple coating, and later -- with a multi coating. Have decided to not alter a stamp... |
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okynek
759 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2008 : 9:13:04 PM
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I'm really having no objection against 'MC'. In fact I changed it already.
But question is remain, and to me this is a principal question to set the rule for future, should we go with direct name translation or with translation using common known acronyms? Like case with 'MC'? By other words should we go with phonetics or with grammatics?
Concerning this particular lens should we even include 'MC' prefix? We did not including 'Ï' prefix for coated lenses, are we?
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jan 31 2008 : 10:04:38 PM
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| For search purposes I use both. Like if it's Kiev 6C, I would do Kiev 6S / 6C |
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jan 31 2008 : 10:25:24 PM
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| I guess I've also been doing Kiev 6S (6C), that makes it nice and searchable too. |
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okynek
759 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2008 : 07:54:14 AM
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Yee, we have a lot of problems with names. Take Zenit-B or it Zenit-V? Zorki-C or it Zorki-S? And camera Droog(Friend) often considered as narcotics - Drug.
I believe KMZ made the worse name choices in all. Totally different cameras have same names like Zenit-11 or Zenit-15. Identical cameras got different names Estafeta and Vimpel, Zenit-3 and Kristall. Names like Çåíèò TTL has both Russian and Latin part at the same time. I’m not sure if all this mess-up because ignorance of top management of luck of intelligence or both, or may be they was trying to confuse the enemy? But now we will stock with such dilemmas forever. At list FED and Kiev was almost consistent. |
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Zoom
596 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2008 : 08:19:22 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by okynek
Yee, we have a lot of problems with names.
Unfortunately, an originally wrong transliteration has resulted in set of this problems... :(
quote:
Originally posted by okynek
And camera Droog(Friend) often considered as narcotics - Drug.
"Droug" -- the best version.
quote:
Originally posted by okynek
Identical cameras got different names ... Zenit-3 and Kristall
Sorry, Zenit-3M.
See also
http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/kristall/index.html
quote:
Originally posted by okynek
Names like Çåíèò TTL has both Russian and Latin part at the same time.
It is usual. For example (latin letters in red): MC Çåíèòàð-ÌE1 (MC Zenitar-ME1).
http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/lenses/zenitar-me1-1-7-50.html
quote:
Originally posted by okynek
I’m not sure if all this mess-up because ignorance of top management of luck of intelligence or both, or may be they was trying to confuse the enemy?
I don't understand you. As I know, for many foreigners the Cyrillic alphabet is a problem. But for Russians, in fact, the Latin alphabet is not a problem. |
Edited by - Zoom on Feb 01 2008 08:20:22 AM |
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Juhani Halmeenmaki
cedricfan
Finland
1020 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Feb 01 2008 : 10:25:08 AM
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Well, car industry has propably made the most HUGE name mistakes. Try eg selling a Chevy Nova or Mitsu Pajero in spanish speaking countres...
Smena rules |
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okynek
759 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2008 : 9:31:21 PM
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Zoom, with all respect, how should we read this labels?
Don't you believe some one should think before making names for the cameras?
And we all know that names did not came from people who design cameras. Names came from the top. Translation there is not who to blame. Luck of imagination is.
Yes it was few exceptions like Kristall or Naciss, many lenses have nice and consistent names: Jupiter, Orion, Tair. I can even live with Smena, but Zorki or Zenit does not mean much in Russian as well as in English or in any other languish. And never the less this names live for many decades, when Estafeta or Start or Reporter duy fast and easy.
MC is a luckily exception because any way you look: Multy Coated or MnogoSloynui it the same MC. But MC should not be part of the name, because MC automatically becomes MS to most people when rest of the name written in Russian.
When I reread all what I put, it looks somehow mean, but I wrote it with smile on my face, who do not agree with me please do not take it personally
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Feb 01 2008 : 10:25:40 PM
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If some company, anywhere in the world, makes a camera ... they can name it and label it however they want, or in as many ways as they want. This is the same with any products. It is probably not up to the collector of objects to say how they should have been named when they were made.
For example, Ebay was started by a man whose wife collected "PEZ" Dispensers (these are small figural plastic dispensers for tiny candies). Many people collect them ... so what if some people don't like the word "PEZ"?
If someone has good ideas for naming products, that is good and they should make the products and name them. But if they are already made and named, what is to be gained by wishing they were named differently, more consistently, or more to an individuals liking.
The problem with individual letters like "S" and "C" is no problem at all. I don't know anyone who collects Russian - Soviet cameras who is confused very much by it. Same with "B" and "V".
We could simplify this problem that does not exist by making this web site be all in Russian ... no English ... and not allowing any camera that has Latin writing on it to be talked about or shown in photos.
The lack of imagination for names of some Russian cameras goes very well with the lack of imagination for technological innovations of some Russian cameras too! And I say that not only about Russian cameras, but cameras from all countries. And I love all the Russian cameras, non-imaginative names and boring technology included.
So all that is also written in reply to Okynek with a smile on my face ;-)
Regards, Bill
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Zoom
596 Posts |
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okynek
759 Posts |
Posted - Feb 04 2008 : 11:08:35 AM
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quote:
But this is "LOMO 135VS" ("ÂÑ" -- Cyrillic) and "ZENIT V" ("Â" -- is also Cyrillic from Voronin*).
I have to agree with this all 100% or more This is how I would expect both names to be written on cameras. But it not. And I believe these mistakes can be only explained by ignorance or stupidity of KMZ leaders. Actually it is much more issues with KMZ name making then this, but I do not want to go this dark road. Not today
With MC is more complicated. MC is merely a technology name. So it should probably be translated as a word, not letter by letter. Never the less not everyone know this and name makers should think ahead about possibility of export and translation of the name, in English the list.
The articles on Zenitcamera.com care to read probably few thousand of us who collect this cameras, for the rest of the Word this names are confusing and can only be read and understand the way it shown: Zenit-B or LOMO BC. You just can not put first part of the name in Latin and second in Russian and expect everyone to read it correctly. What were they thinking?
Bill in USSR manufactory can not give names to products what they making. They can only propose names to Ministry for approval. In most cases Ministry telling manufactory what name they should propose. So may be KMZ not to blame for such extravagant names after all.
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Zoom
596 Posts |
Posted - Feb 05 2008 : 08:21:56 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by okynek
And I believe these mistakes can be only explained by ignorance or stupidity of KMZ leaders.
What do you see in this interesting picture:
http://l-39.cz/_L-39/L-39_popis/L-39_kabina_str_stolek.jpg
( http://l-39.cz/L-39_popis.html -- this link is from another thread of this forum ;)
Inscription in Russian, inscription in Polish...
There: http://l-39.cz/_L-39/L-39_popis/L-39_kabina_P_tablo.jpg
in English too...
And now conceive what must be in a user manual... ;)
This is a usual business in a military technics. Where is a trained personnel only. So, it is simply habit... ;)
quote:
Originally posted by okynek
With MC is more complicated. MC is merely a technology name.
MC == multi coating. Internationaly world-wide known abbreviation.
quote:
Originally posted by okynek
Never the less not everyone know this and name makers should think ahead about possibility of export and translation of the name, in English the list.
I agree with you, but why not in Polish, Bulgarian, Japan, Hindi? ;)
quote:
Originally posted by okynek
You just can not put first part of the name in Latin and second in Russian and expect everyone to read it correctly. What were they thinking?
I think that to a consumer all the same how to pronounce a names...
quote:
Originally posted by okynek
Bill in USSR manufactory can not give names to products what they making.
Why?.. No. |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Feb 05 2008 : 10:42:28 AM
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Okynek,
I believe the designers and management at KMZ and other factories were able to give names to their designs and then if the ministry didn't like the name, of course they could change it. But if the factory-given name was good, they were no doubt happy not to have to think about it.
Maybe also, at times the factory was given a name by the ministry. Things always work many ways ... not just one way.
Zoom is correct ... the consumers don't care if the "B" in "Zenit-B" is actually a "V". As long as they have a way to say the name, in this case "Zee-nit-bee" they are happy in that respect, but they do care very much how the camera works.
Everyone knows what "MC" means, so I would suggest that it would be confusing to call a lens "MS" when the abbreviation is meant to stand for "multi-coated". As Zoom says, it is an internationally known abbreviation.
Although when I first started collecting the Russian cameras I had a brief moment of confusion about some of the letters, believe me, it did not last long (maybe 1 hour), and I'm quite sure that you can have confidence in the general people of the world to still be able to function in photography (after all a technical as well as creative skill) very well, and not to become confused or disoriented, even if not every letter of every brand name on every camera makes 100% sense to them in their language.
I'm quite sure that the KMZ designers and management, as well as the Soviet ministry that ran industry in the Soviet Union, were not ignorant or stupid (look at their designs and industries, including space travel), and just because these names are confusing to you does not mean that most KMZ camera users, in any country, over the past years and today, are also confused by the names. ;-)
Regards, Bill
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Juhani Halmeenmaki
cedricfan
Finland
1020 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Feb 05 2008 : 12:52:25 PM
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My humble eurocents about what I remember from early 70ies...
Back then I was a youngster, wanting to buy an SLR with my pennies (that time it was pennies, now cents). The only thing I could afford were Praktica (hate the looks and KLUNK-shutter), Seagull (hate meterless cameras) and Zenit, so you may guess how it all started. Price difference beetween E and EM was tiny, IIRC the EM cost 495 finnish marks (pretty equal to nowadays 500 euros or 700 USD) and E only 50 less.
At that time I was a beginner, although I had used my fathers Retina and loose meter, plus done enlarging in home darkroom. The ZENIT EM was in latin script, fine. "B" in shutter speed was B like it should, fine. Just like MC in lenses that has not been changed to cyrillic, so here you are!
Only two things clearly showed about its origins: MADE IN USSR in the bottom and "GOST" in cyrillic. Actually a bit odd, as it also says DIN and ASA in latin? So only one speed scale for all markets when more expensive top & bottom were made both export & domestic versions.
Then there was the odour from the leather case, which didn't fade easily...
Actually this same text will be copied to blog, a good beginning to my Zenit-history!
Smena rules |
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okynek
759 Posts |
Posted - Feb 05 2008 : 2:56:29 PM
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quote:
designers and management at KMZ and other factories were able to give names to their designs
Name for the project always came from the top. Designers were the last who can make any inputs on the names of the projects.
quote:
Things always work many ways ... not just one way.
In USSR I knew only one way - from top to bottom.
quote:
But if the factory-given name was good, they were no doubt happy not to have to think about it.
Yes, I believe few times it may happen. Such cameras are very rare and desirable now.
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As long as they have a way to say the name, in this case "Zee-nit-bee"
Nothing personal, Bill but would you be happy if someone in Russia call you "Vil"?
Name is a name, is a name, is a name ! in any languish. Names must be translated phonetically. This is a basic rule like a Newton’s low in physic. Other way Russian Michael has to be a Bear in US. And me you should call a Bass fish.
quote:
and just because these names are confusing to you does not mean that most KMZ camera users, in any country, over the past years and today, are also confused by the names.
It is not about confusion Bill, it about elementary rules, what we teach our kids, and what we have to study at school in any country. If simple languish rules are not in effects then why we ever bothering to talk about culture, heritage, and traditions? We supposed to condemn such mistakes not find the ways to smear them.
quote:
Soviet ministry that ran industry in the Soviet Union, were not ignorant or stupid
Yes they were. Personal experiences.
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I think that to a consumer all the same how to pronounce a names...
Why we argue then from the beginning? Let MC be MS
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USSR manufactory can not give names to products what they making
personal experience in development of supercomputers in USSR.
quote:
And now conceive what must be in a user manual... ;)
Yes I can only imagine But it is wrong, we should not cower it up, we should condemn it.
Many of us who had to read this masterpieces was not exactly surprised when Chernoble blow up.
quote:
This is a usual business in a military technics. Where is a trained personnel only. So, it is simply habit... ;)
Yes unfortunately it what happens. Civil cameras were produced by military agency using they rules(great reasons for this). Right it or not? At list – we have something to discuss now.
quote:
but why not in Polish, Bulgarian, Japan, Hindi?
Yes I believe if you sending cameras to Poland, Japan, Israel, Mexico you have to put names in native languishes. Simple rule of politeness. If you can not do this by some reasons you have to live names as is - in Russian in this case. As exception, I spouse, name can be made in English. Only because English become de-facto international Languish. I do not think it is polite way to market camera let say in Vietnam or Brazil, but it happens. And name of the camera must be translated correctly.
By my opinion it is totally despicable intentionally produce and market cameras or any other products for internal use in foreguine languish. It only means that your languish is not good enough, you culture is substandard. Then why live in this country?
This is my personal opinion.
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Edited by - okynek on Feb 05 2008 10:59:22 PM |
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Zoom
596 Posts |
Posted - Feb 06 2008 : 06:17:50 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by okynek
Name for the project always came from the top. Designers were the last who can make any inputs on the names of the projects.
Only facts:
Zorki-3M: "M" for N.M. Marenkov, the creator (btw: the mechanoerecting works metalworker).
Zenit-E: "E" for N.M. Egorov, one of the creators (and KMZ director, but he was in a design group also).
Zenit-D: "D" for I.A. Derzhavin, this camera circuit creator.
Quite enough...
See also
http://www.zenitcamera.com/qa/qa-names.html
http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/history/marks.html
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Feb 06 2008 : 11:53:37 AM
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Yes, I would be happy if someone called me "Weel" or "Vil". The exact way someone would read or say a name or word is not so important to me as is the meaning or intent behind it.
I would say Newton's Laws of Physics is a more exact scientific law than the art of language translation, which as you know, can vary and change depending on the languages being translated, the skill of the translator, and the inflection of the speaker or writer. Gravity does not change in these ways.
You quote me wrongly and even changed my sentence, I did not say:
" Soviet ministry that ran industry in the Soviet Union, were not ignorant or stupid"
I said:
"I'm quite sure that the KMZ designers and management, as well as the Soviet ministry that ran industry in the Soviet Union, were not ignorant or stupid (look at their designs and industries, including space travel)..."
So, I would just add, and then I am finished with this topic, that I have no doubts that some Soviet managers and ministries were poorly run and non-responsive to the workers under them. But considering some of the achievements in camera design and manufacture, I would not think that the exact name is less important than the product and it's functionality.
Regards, Bill
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MS Jupiter-37 AM
