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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams

Lithuania
973 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 20 2008 :  02:42:28 AM  Show Profile  Visit AidasCams's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Yesterday I have got a long-waited book by Jashtold-Govorko, issued in 1939. An author listed those cameras in his book: Fotokor-1, Universal Camera (!), Tourist, Sport, Reporter, studio camera 13x18, Smena, Liliput, Maliutka, Fed with accessories, Arfo, Arfo-IV, Komsomolets box camera and Pionier box camera. The most interesting thing is description of still unknown Universal Camera. Below you will find this description (sorry, if you can't read russian - my english is too poor to translate it correctly). To say shortly, this camera has double extensions bellows, comes with Industar-7 lens and has special frontplate for interchangeable lenses D-4 8/80cm and F-1 4.5/19cm !!!. I don't think it's a Fotokor-3 camera, as mentioned in Princelle book ...




Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4204 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 20 2008 :  12:19:40 PM  Show Profile  Visit Vlad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
How odd, there it is - another TEMP shutter camera... the only ones known with TEMP are Fotokor from 1940s and the Moskvas... and this is mentioned as a production camera??? It is very possible this camera have not seen the light of day because the war had started...

Vlad
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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
1870 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 20 2008 :  8:27:49 PM  Show Profile  Visit Luiz Paracampo's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Reading this Universal Fotoapparat I found:

6,5x9 frame wit two focusing scales.
objective Industar 7 3.5/10.5cm
Temp Shutter 1 to 1/200 cable and "D" (our B) etc etc
Newton viewfinder and Iconometric "frame finder"
diverse applications
But the interesting! lenses
Telephoto "D-4" 80cm f 8 (too strong - Spy purposes?)
Wide angle "F-1 19cm f 4.5 (why F and not Cirillic F?)
Very strange lenses! the telephoto is an enormous 800mm! the wide angle has a greater focal distance than the normal lens 190mm!!!!! how could it be wide???
Adapters for film plates and roll film
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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
973 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 21 2008 :  01:43:02 AM  Show Profile  Visit AidasCams's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Vlad

How odd, there it is - another TEMP shutter camera... the only ones known with TEMP are Fotokor from 1940s and the Moskvas... and this is mentioned as a production camera??? It is very possible this camera have not seen the light of day because the war had started...

Vlad



... in the same book i have found an interesting annotation, that few cameras, incl. Universal Camera, studio camera 13x18, Maliutka and their accessories will be issued in 4th quarter of 1939 or 1st quarter of 1940... That means all these conceptional cameras were already accepted for mass-production by appropriate Authorities. And it's far from the beggining of WW2. The soviet author Jashtold-Govorko was very knowledgeable person, I don't think he have wrote "faity-tales" in his books ...

Regards,
Aidas
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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
973 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 21 2008 :  01:55:02 AM  Show Profile  Visit AidasCams's Homepage  Reply with Quote
... but I also have another theory: an universal camera was simplified and have become Fotokor-3, as mentioned in Princelle book. You can ask me the reason I'm thinking so? After the close examination of another cameras in the book, I have found some differencies.

For example - camera Smena. First of all, lens planned was 6.3/50mm (and not the 6.8/50mm as we used it). The second important thing - Original Smena used to have another shutter with speeds: 1/25s, 1/50s and 1/100s. The conceptional version was intended to give 45 images 24x36mm on perforated 35mm film, or 8 images on black paper-backed 35mm film ...

That follows me to conclusion, that planned cameras were simplified to reduce the price down ...
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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
1870 Posts
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Posted - Feb 21 2008 :  2:45:46 PM  Show Profile  Visit Luiz Paracampo's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Aidas
What you say about discrepant data on lenses?
Regards LP
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4204 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 21 2008 :  3:00:50 PM  Show Profile  Visit Vlad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I've been doing a lot of search for this Universalniy Fotoapparat and I've noticed in a lot of old literature the words Universalniy Fotoapparat and the actual Fotokor camera are either used interchangeably or together, which leads me to believe that Aidas is onto something that this later had become a Fotokor-3... Here's an example from the Sovetskoye Foto from 1962:

http://www.photohistory.ru/SovPhoto-1962-7.html

Very first paragraph calls Fotokor-1 a Universal Photocamera... just something I've notices, don't want to make anything up, but an interesting pattern.

Vlad
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4204 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 21 2008 :  3:25:23 PM  Show Profile  Visit Vlad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Aidas, in the book I just posted into catalog, here's an excerpt for Fotokor-3:

Fotokor No.3.
Similar to "Fotokor No.1", but 6.5x9
format, "lndustar-7" f 3.5/105 mm
lens. Central "Temp" mfps 1 to
1/200 s , K, D. Was not produced at
full scale. C 1938, worked out GMZ.

It is EXACTLY the same camera described as Universalnaya... I think now that you are correct in your theory.

Vlad.
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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
1870 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 21 2008 :  3:34:31 PM  Show Profile  Visit Luiz Paracampo's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Vlad
You must remember that "Universal camerss" existed from "Arfo" generation and previously "EFTE" from 1929. Those cameras had their own names. As placed in the book I see a foolish delirium , the name universalnii fotoapparat and the described accessory optics absolutely unfeasable for the described camera.
Regards
LP
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4204 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 21 2008 :  3:44:42 PM  Show Profile  Visit Vlad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
You're talking about Fotokor-type folder cameras accepting different lenses? In theory - why not? But in practicality I have not yet seen one
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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
1870 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 21 2008 :  4:04:34 PM  Show Profile  Visit Luiz Paracampo's Homepage  Reply with Quote
What I am trying to say is that althogh Fotokor Efte or any other camera should accept interechangeable lenses ........Ok .. but...
The lenses indicated in the Russian text are impossible to be used in the descried camera Something like to use tractor wheels on sport cars!
The 800mm is too long to be fitted even in a triple extension 6x9 bellows camera and 190 mm is not a wide angle! The normal lens has only 105mm - Say me how can a 190mm have a wider field than a 105?
Trully impossible!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4204 Posts
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Posted - Feb 21 2008 :  4:20:11 PM  Show Profile  Visit Vlad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Luiz, I think it's a misprint... how can a wide-angle lens be 19cm?? I think they meant 19mm.... no? and is there such an 800mm lens??? it maybe 80mm (they say 80cm... but that may be a misprint as well).. Not sure about the 80cm, but 19cm wide angle is somewhat an oxymoron...

Vlad
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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
973 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 22 2008 :  01:39:45 AM  Show Profile  Visit AidasCams's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Luiz Paracampo

Aidas
What you say about discrepant data on lenses?
Regards LP



Luiz,
the only thing I can say - it's very odd and never seen before ...
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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
973 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 22 2008 :  01:42:16 AM  Show Profile  Visit AidasCams's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Vlad

Aidas, in the book I just posted into catalog, here's an excerpt for Fotokor-3:

Fotokor No.3.
Similar to "Fotokor No.1", but 6.5x9
format, "lndustar-7" f 3.5/105 mm
lens. Central "Temp" mfps 1 to
1/200 s , K, D. Was not produced at
full scale. C 1938, worked out GMZ.

It is EXACTLY the same camera described as Universalnaya... I think now that you are correct in your theory.

Vlad.



Vlad,
thanks for your information. If you can trust me, I know the content of this catalogue quite well ... I even know the person who gave you this file ...
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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
1870 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 22 2008 :  01:59:00 AM  Show Profile  Visit Luiz Paracampo's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Dear sirs
Thera are basic matematician formulas that can't be altered when you built or develop a camera.
In any format= Basic concepts:
A normal lens is the diagonal of the covered frame.
Any smaller lens (in a certain range) is a wide angle.
any greater focal length (also in a certain range) becomes a telephoto. A 19mm could never fill the 6x9 format unless it would be a fish eye which is not the case. A 190mm almost doubles the normal 105mm normal lens focal length. -This is a telephoto-
the 800mm is extremely large -8 times the normal length lens.
the normal range in large format cameras does nor exceed -I said does not exceed- 2.5-3x the normal focal length.
Eventually the 190mm sould be the telephoto and the 80mm not 80cm should be a moderate wide angle
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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
973 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 22 2008 :  03:14:05 AM  Show Profile  Visit AidasCams's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The misprint problems are solved already, we should say ... , and it took only 70 years to solve it with the help of Luiz ...

Edited by - AidasCams on Feb 22 2008 03:18:31 AM
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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
1870 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 22 2008 :  10:29:14 AM  Show Profile  Visit Luiz Paracampo's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Aidas
This seems not to be a misprint but the "voice of the owner" acording to the description (we could not see a picture of the camera) this should be a Reporter with between the lens shutter.
Note there is no words about being the camera horizontal, vertical or square in shape. Industar 7 were used in Reporter and Tourist cameras both made by GOMZ .Of course again an I-7 and Temp shutter denotes again a GOMZ camera.
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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
973 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 22 2008 :  11:08:24 AM  Show Profile  Visit AidasCams's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Luiz Paracampo

Aidas
This seems not to be a misprint but the "voice of the owner" acording to the description (we could not see a picture of the camera) this should be a Reporter with between the lens shutter.
Note there is no words about being the camera horizontal, vertical or square in shape. Industar 7 were used in Reporter and Tourist cameras both made by GOMZ .Of course again an I-7 and Temp shutter denotes again a GOMZ camera.




Luiz,
Just wanted to add, that there are descriptions both of Reporter and Tourist in the same book ... so author ment something different.

Regards,
Aidas
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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
1870 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 23 2008 :  7:37:19 PM  Show Profile  Visit Luiz Paracampo's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Aidas
Yes I did see that since your first post, but I wanted to say a possible variation on Reporter camera.
Regards
LP
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Juhani Halmeenmaki
cedricfan
Finland
988 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Mar 19 2008 :  2:54:53 PM  Show Profile  Visit cedricfan's Homepage  Reply with Quote
For sale in Tallinn with a price of 300 euros, must be prewar but propably even Tsar-time?



Sorry for the quality, taken through window with a Leica

Edited by - cedricfan on Mar 19 2008 2:55:56 PM
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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
973 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Mar 21 2008 :  02:29:58 AM  Show Profile  Visit AidasCams's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Juhani,

Although the price of 300 euros is far away from reality, I suppose, this trade mark "K.I.Freelandt" was well known in old Russia indeed (see the picture below).



Regards,
Aidas
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