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James McGee
James McGee
Azerbaijan
192 Posts |
 Posted - Feb 25 2008 : 10:38:19 AM
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I bought this finder about eight years ago in Uzbekistan. Has anyone seen another? Is it a fake, or perhaps a prototype?
Regards to all, Jim
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BERRY alain
mermoz37
France
814 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2008 : 11:34:30 AM
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hummm, hummm
for me it seemed to be a fake (we can see old "N" and so on, under grey paint)
so look if engraved letters groove regular (whith motor advance machine) or hand made : use a lupe for details.
 alain |
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James McGee
James McGee
Azerbaijan
192 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2008 : 11:51:29 AM
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Thanks Alain,
The N is visible beside the TSVVS mark, so the body must be from a standard universal viewfinder.
The match up lines in the rotating turret are machine made and not done by hand. I bought this a long time ago and very cheaply, in fact I knew nothing about TSVVS when I bought it.
Of course it could well be a fake, but why???
Regards,
Jim. |
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okynek
759 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2008 : 1:15:26 PM
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We need more pictures !
It can be a real deal, part of the set for special purposes perhaps. And fact that 'N' is bigger or bolder is good. Forger would make everything nice and even. In practice for military use manufactory use the best material, but pay little attention of how it may looks. What worry me is a color of the viewfinder. Logically it should be black. |
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James McGee
James McGee
Azerbaijan
192 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2008 : 1:54:51 PM
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Hi Okynek,
More pictures added, but I don't think they help much.
Cheers, Jim
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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2008 : 2:26:21 PM
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Not sure of anything, but the engravings don't sound really true...
Perhaps too new, with too barbs?
Jacques.
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okynek
759 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2008 : 3:15:28 PM
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Yes, something fishy there.
Is case has any paint on it?
I can not see any numbers for the focal length. How do you know what opening for what lens? True military item would defiantly have such numbers. |
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okynek
759 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2008 : 3:19:23 PM
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| Also can it be designed for movie camera? Same kind of color as Konvas. And many movie cameras has 3 lenses. |
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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
973 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Feb 25 2008 : 3:23:16 PM
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Let me remind you, that early UV with Zorki markings were the same "grey" colour indeed ...
Regards,
Aidas |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Feb 25 2008 : 5:28:04 PM
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If it is real, it would seem that it would not be for the TSVVS because there are not other lenses that will fit it, as far as I know. One of the finders looks to be some telephoto size (85mm or 100mm) but the TSVVS has no outer bayonet mount for these lenses. Also, the engraving looks sort og crude, especially when compared with the enraving and workmanship on TSVVS. So, coupled with Alain's observation about the "N" under the surface, which looks to be very thick and applied over the "N", I suspect that it is a fake piece made to help sell, it. Although it is strange that it only has 3 finders instead of the usual 5, which would make a fake harder to make. So... who knows!
Regards, Bill
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James McGee
James McGee
Azerbaijan
192 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2008 : 6:15:49 PM
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Hi Bill,
My thoughts are that this is genuine, but only as a crude factory prototype. Kiev fit lenses would be suitable, namely, ZK Zorki, later to become Jupiter 9, 11, and 12. The 50mm would be the standard camera viewfinder, so not needed on a universal finder. 28mm, an expensive and rarely used lens, probably also considered unnecessary? (maybe?).
I bought this finder eight or nine years ago from a Russian family in a little known town in Uzbekistan. The sellers were a family who were packing up and going "home" after the break up of the Soviet Union.
Many Russian families were doing this at the time. They needed money to settle in Russia and wanted to minimise baggage that they would take with them.
I bought this finder for maybe five dollars, I didn't even know what it was, I had never heard of TSVVS or even Princelle at that time, neither had the family that I bought it from! They were selling all kinds of houshold goods that would have been difficult for them to take with them to Russia. This finder had probably been in their possession for a long time before I bought it. Perhaps left by a father. I remember that they themselves were not interested in photography and couldn't tell me anything about the finder.
I can't imagine anybody faking an item such as this, especially before the collapse of the Soviet Union. If somebody were to fake such an item they would not go to so much trouble and then crudely stamp the TSVVS logo. In fact they would have made the TSVVS logo the main point of attention.
At least those are my thoughts, but of course this wouldn't be the first time that I have been wrong!!!!
Cheers, Jim |
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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
2002 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Feb 25 2008 : 6:42:21 PM
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This finder correspond to the Universal Finder model made post 1950 due the left side of turret. At this time TSVVS were no more made. This particular finder has a three lens turret using 50, 35 and 28mm lens field optics. No one can ever say that there were no other optics for TSVVS. In this same Wiki catalogue I posted a 20mm Russar for Kiev attaching in the inner bayonet. Yesterday Allain posted a Zorki with a 28mm Orion proving by its barrel design that those lenses can easily be fitted in the inner TSVVS Bayonet. So this finder should possible be an special request made after the camera production ceased.
It is not difficult to request and make a finder like this. Some time ago I prepared a finder like that one, simply substituting the original lens cyllinder by a new one made to fit changeable Bell&Howell 70 finder lenses, and it became a very interesting three lens universal finder. |
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Yuri Boguslavsky
fedka
USA
240 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Feb 25 2008 : 9:37:55 PM
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TSVVS is easy to engrave, so is the number. But to make 3 lenses instead of 5 seems like an overkill for me.
We are talking machining new turret, then making 3 new holes, detents (does it click?).
if this is a fake, someone put a lot of work in it, and for what - to sell it so cheaply?
If not for TSVVS, I would say it is a real thing, made for some special military or technical application.
Or, maybe it is real, but someone decided to embellish it with TSVVS?
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Yuri Boguslavsky
fedka
USA
240 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Feb 25 2008 : 9:43:22 PM
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Well, this can not possibly be a military piece - just look at the crooked engraving. A military production, or prototype would have never been done so crudely.
But still, the finder itself, having 3 lenses, does look like a real thing. And the lenses are not marked... weird thing.
Maybe this way indeed intended as a cine viewfinder, like those that are used by movie directors and cinematographers to compose the frame? |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Feb 25 2008 : 10:02:17 PM
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Yuri,
Director's finders usually don't have an accessory shoe attached and instead have have small strap-holders for a cord that is hung around the director's neck.
I agree that military production or prototype is always better done with Soviet optics. Just look at the quality of the details of manufacture of the TSVVS camera! It may be for a cine camera or a rangefinder camera, adapted from a normal universal finder, which is why we can see the traces of the original serial number under the sort of crude TSVVS engraving.
TSVVS is the initials of the name of Topographic Service of the Army Air Force, and so the logo could possibly be found on other objects used in that service, even if not connected with the highly machines and crafted TSVVS camera. So maybe it is a finder that was altered by them for use on a Zorki.
I have a KIEV III that has TSVVS markings and came with lenses that have Soviet Army markings and was supposedly from a retired high-ranking officer. I suspect it is a fake, but some things seem like it could be authentic as well. Here is a photo. Just to add another controversy to the forum! The year of the camera and lens is 1953.
Regards, Bill
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okynek
759 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2008 : 10:09:19 PM
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If this UV was made for sale to full potential buyer it would be made much neater. At list it should be painted and polished. May be pictures deceive me, but I only see bare metal.
On other hands if it was made by manufactory for gov. or military order or as a prototype it also would be made much neater. And have engraving on the wheel (really hard to fake)
It seems to me now that this is home made item, made from real parts taken from manufactory (KMZ?)
Body of this UV seems to be only molded. After this it has to be sandblasted then cleaned and slowly rotated for few hours inside the drum, then cleaned again grounded and painted by primer and then enamel. The wheel also seems to be right out of the laze. It has to pass few more hands before it became nice and shiny and ready to be installed inside of the turret.
Also set of the openings is most likely for wide lenses. I would say it will fit to wedding photographers the best. The TCVCS engraving was made just for fun, it definitely not from real manufactory. But numbers can be real. I meant this master possibly made 15 other finders for his friends and family or for sale or trade.
Actually this is not so unusual in USSR when worker making something for his privet use from parts obtained from defective pile or parts what is not ready yet and not yet been counted and warehoused. Surplus as we would say in US.
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Yuri Boguslavsky
fedka
USA
240 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Feb 25 2008 : 10:14:46 PM
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Bill,
Director's finders was just an idea, they probably did not have any movie directors in Uzbekistan:-)
The Kiev engraving must be fake, though very well made.
But you included the case in the picture - is there anything unusual about it? |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Feb 25 2008 : 10:43:44 PM
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Yuri,
I have a LOMO Director's Finder from 1973 and it is really cool (zooms from 22mm to 100mm by a dial).
No, nothing unusual about the Kiev case it was just in the photo I used. I think the logo must be a fake, as you do, but one thing that looks real is that when looking at the TSVVS logo on the meter cover of that Kiev III, there is what looks like a pretty old scratch and the engraved logo is scratched also. So the logo was put on before the scratch was made, but it is only my opinion that the scratch is old ... so means nothing!
But whether this Kiev, and the finder are real or not, I do think that there are other things that were used by the Topographical Service of the Army Air Force that may have been engraved or marked with the logo. This could be done officially, as in the case of the TSVVS camera, or possibly a very high ranking TSVVS officer would have the power to do it on a military object, but personally used. So for example, if a Soviet General was using a Kiev III, he could probably have it engraved with the "TSVVS" logo without bad consequences. It is the one possibility with this Kiev III TSVVS (especially since it came with some lenses that had military looking numbers and a red star engraved on them). See photo below:
Regards, Bill
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Yuri Boguslavsky
fedka
USA
240 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Feb 25 2008 : 10:56:19 PM
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Bill,
Does the J-11 on your picture have a serial number in the usual place? Or just that one on the body?
The star is very neat, though military stars would normally have a hammer and sickle inside.
I think we are using the word "fake" too loosely. We need to define it.
I think fake is something that was made to pass for a real thing, i.e. with deception in mind.
If a general asked his subordinates to embellish his beloved Kiev with stars and other things, and used [almost unlimited] resources of the army for that, it is not a fake.
Or, if some skilled machinist made a few 3-lens finders for his friends, they are not fake.
Yuri
Yuri |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Feb 25 2008 : 11:16:11 PM
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Yuri,
Yes, it has a regular serial number in the usual place, around the front of the lens, No. 6331244 ... so 1963. I think anyone faking an Army lens might add the hammer and sickle instead of just a star, and some Soviet Army things have just a star, without the hammer a sickle ... for example, the star can represent certain rank badges ... so a general might put a star on his lens ???
You are right about the word fake, there can also be honest items that are non-factory. I don't even really like the word "fake" because after all, all these things are a real something! Maybe the word "forgery" is better because in shows intent to defraud.
But sometimes, even if the item could be embellished in an authentic way ... how to prove it! For example, all the provenance I have on this Kiev III TSVVS is a statement from the seller that he bought it from the family of a high ranking officer. Means nothing without documentation or some other proof. Yes the seller does not normally sell fakes and his cameras all appear just to be normal cameras, and even though I bought these things, no more appeared, but still... who knows ... so in a way it has to be considered fake until there is some overwhelming opinion from experts that it is not. In my opinion.
And I agree about the finder that it is probably not a forgery and that it is possibly home made, maybe from old used universal finders (thus the old number covered over).
Regards, Bill
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Feb 25 2008 : 11:28:52 PM
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Yea, the engraving is way too squiggly... it reminds me of a camera that I have - an Agat 18 where someone had sanded off the Agat logo and scratched "Kodak" on it instead  .. My 18 month old son's favorite toy now. .. I bought it in a lot with a few other cameras in case you're wondering why I bought it ... |
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Feb 25 2008 : 11:29:13 PM
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| Engraving on the finder I meant |
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James McGee
James McGee
Azerbaijan
192 Posts |
Posted - Feb 26 2008 : 12:41:07 AM
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Yuri,
The finder does click as it locks into the three positions.
I also think that you are right about "fakes", we all seem a little paranoid about anything that it out of the ordinary and jump to the conclusion that it was meant to decieve.
Because of the circumstances in which I found this finder and the price that I paid for it there is little doubt in my mind that it was never meant to decieve anybody.
During the eight years that I have owned it I have often thought why it should exist.
BTW the photo's actually make it look far worse than it is because they are so large they exagerate every tiny blemish.
My best guess is that it may be an initial internal factory prototype. The next stage after the idea. Perhaps just to show to a boss, or discuss in a meeting and that the markings are simply to denote factory ownership or to deter workers from taking it home. Of course as I said earlier this is just one theory of many and I may well be wrong.
Regardless of why it was made I think the motive was probably innocent, otherwise the logo would have been made to look much more like the finished product.
From my point of view, reading the responses and related issues on the forum especially Vlad's little story about the Agat 18 has been worth far more than the five dollars that I paid for the finder, so in the end it turned out to be a real bargain!!!
Regards, Jim |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Feb 26 2008 : 3:12:16 PM
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Hi Jim,
Yes, it could be a factory prototype, but in my experience then it would not have the traces of the old "N" (part of the original serial number) under the paint or gray surface. Prototypes are carefully made in most if not all factories. Many of the factories did have "incentive" contests where workers were encouraged to make things and show them at the factory ... so the factory engineers and bosses could have these ideas to use if they wanted them. Maybe it can be that, but then why No. 15? I think Yuri's ideas may be the most accurate in that they have been made by someone skilled, from used parts (thus the serial number) for friends or for sale as an informal "cottage industry", for some extra income. Or, something special for the Army Air Force Topographical Services, made in small quantities.
In any case, it is a beautiful thing for the collection and very unique. Maybe someday we will find more clues. Thanks for sharing it with us!
Regards, Bill
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Feb 26 2008 : 5:11:04 PM
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| No offense meant Jim with that Agat story, this is definitely a collector's piece I wouldn't give this one to my toddler to play with |
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BERRY alain
mermoz37
France
814 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2008 : 05:32:29 AM
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bill,
i asked to M.Mladek about kiev "TSVVS" past year...no doubt for him ; his opinion was this camera is a false one ....
and for fun , i send for friends here some falses finders :
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okynek
759 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2008 : 10:51:50 AM
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Really great collection!!!
In such great shape they probably more valuable then a real ones!!!
Gongrads!!! |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Feb 27 2008 : 11:01:51 AM
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Hi Alain,
Nice collection of universal viewfinder forgeries! I would think that at least the TSVVS finder in your collection was made by the same engravers hand that made the TSVVS Kiev III,
because you can see how "closed" the opening of the "C"s are! On the real TSVVS camera the openings of the "C"s are more open. I have only a very little doubt that the Kiev III is a fake,
and only because of the small detail of a microscopic old scratch. I also talked with M.Mladek about it and gathered his expert opinion, which is rarely wrong as he has long experience,
as do you. So, I consider it a fake too, although not 100% sure ... just 95% sure ;-). But I like it , just te way I like your finders too! thanks for showing them.
Regards, Bill
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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
2002 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Feb 27 2008 : 11:12:10 AM
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Bill and others
J-11 shown with the red star.
Abramov places one in his site as one of the available versions. He says nothing about fakes.
Regards
LP
Allain
Great collection of fakes! |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Feb 27 2008 : 12:17:10 PM
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Thanks for that Abramov reference Luiz! I will look at it because the one small idea that I have that the Kiev TSVVS may not be fake is that it came from the seller who also had this Jupiter-11
and another with a different number but Kiev mount and he never had more than the ones I bought (as we know, once a fake sells, there are usually more made). So maybe the TSVVS has some
small chance to be a Kiev III that an officer of the Topographic Service had engraved (but still I think it is probably fake).
Regards, Bill
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Topic |
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TSVVS Universal finder?
