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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
2002 Posts
My Collection
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 Posted - Jul 04 2008 : 6:56:41 PM
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Really much below boris prices
LP |
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Jul 10 2008 : 02:16:16 AM
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Hi Vlad,
If it is really the Sport 2, it is a rarity.
Have a look at the Princelle p. 42, type G109.
Amitiés. Jacques.
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James McGee
James McGee
Azerbaijan
192 Posts |
Posted - Jul 10 2008 : 02:49:10 AM
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Vlad,
I think the Sport-2 that is for sale must be the 1941 GOMZ 35mm SLR, (see Princelle page 127 1st edition, or page 42 Princelle 2nd edition).
This is a very rare camera, so perhaps not so expensive at that price, (if it really is a "Sport-2").
One thing bothers me, and that is that the camera is described as being a 1939 model, but the Sport-2 wasn't manufactured until 1941. In addition the serial number of 12xxx also seems too low for a 1941 camera. The last year of manufacture was 1941, and the highest serial number around 19,000. So from a total of around 16,000 cameras manufactured it seems very doubtful that 7,000 were made in the last year.
Best wishes, Jim. |
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jul 10 2008 : 11:23:12 AM
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I see... still no picture in Princelle as well  .... |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jul 10 2008 : 8:30:31 PM
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I believe that the camera in question is actually a regular GOMZ Sport, but the second version of it. It has been listed on the Leica Shop list for more than a year at that price. It is not actually the camera called "Sport-2" with that logo on the front.
If you want to check, just send the Leica Shop an e-mailm asking for a photo. Peter Coln or an assistant will send you the photo, or at least answer a question as to which camera it is, but I'm sure it would have been sold to one of several collectors who stop tin at Leica Shop frequently if it was the never seen "Sport-2"!
Regards, Bill
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James McGee
James McGee
Azerbaijan
192 Posts |
Posted - Jul 11 2008 : 02:14:58 AM
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Bill,
I agree with your comments. I don't think there is even any need to bother Leicashop with the question. If the camera is dated 1939 as claimed, (and the serial number seems to bear this out) then the camera can't possibly be a "Sport-2". According to JLP this camera wasn't manufactured before 1941.
In addition the "Sport-2" is so rare that there isn't even a photo available.
The normal "Sport" is in itself a very rare and historically important camera, especially as it is debatably the worlds first 35mm SLR, or at the least among the first.
As to the price that Leicashop are asking, well I personally don't think it is too much if the camera is in decent condition. The "Sport" is a beautiful camera and very unique.
Best wishes, Jim |
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jul 11 2008 : 5:39:09 PM
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Yea makes perfect sense, it's too cheap to be Sport-2 . Plus it probably wouldn't have been posted on the web and sold via private channels instead as all very rare cameras usually are..
Vlad |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jul 11 2008 : 8:32:10 PM
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Anyway, you guys... If you thought it was a Sport-2, it would be better to telephone the Leica Shop, confirm that it was a Sport-2, and then buy it with a credit card ! Then you would have it ! If instead you post it to our site, someone, either one of our members, or someone else who just looks at the site to see what members have found for sale on Ebay or in shops, would have made the call and bought it first! So be careful what you post if it is something rare for sale .... just like in the old Soviet Union, there are a lot of "watchers" on the internet as well!
Regards, Bill
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James McGee
James McGee
Azerbaijan
192 Posts |
Posted - Jul 13 2008 : 09:57:57 AM
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Hello everyone,
I realise that we are getting a little off topic here, but feel it necessary to respond.
Bill, I must say that I totally disagree with your comments, quote:
Anyway, you guys... If you thought it was a Sport-2, it would be better to telephone the Leica Shop, confirm that it was a Sport-2, and then buy it with a credit card ! Then you would have it ! If instead you post it to our site, someone, either one of our members, or someone else who just looks at the site to see what members have found for sale on Ebay or in shops, would have made the call and bought it first! So be careful what you post if it is something rare for sale .... just like in the old Soviet Union, there are a lot of "watchers" on the internet as well!
Firstly, I don't for one minute think that this camera can be a "Sport-2", (the year and the serial number rule out this possibility), but even if I did think it could be a "Sport-2", I still wouldn't phone the Leicashop and buy it with my credit card.
The "Sport-2" is not a priority on my list of wants and I would prefer to leave it for someone else who really wanted it.
Secondly, (and this is my main point), this forum is a place where we freely exchange information and ideas, and hopefully help each other at the same time. It will be a sad day when we deliberately conceal information from each other in the paranoid fear that someone else will get a bargain.
If another forum member did phone the Leicashop, and pick up a bargain, then good luck to them. I could have phoned but chose not to.
I would not purchase a camera simply because it is a rare. I first need to have an interest or reason to buy the particular item.
The number of interesting Soviet cameras out there is imense, and like most of us I don't have the space time or money to collect all of them. I do have quite a mixed collection including medium format and half frame cameras, but I have decided to concentrate mainly on 35mm rangefinders.
If I could find information to help another forum member to aquire something that is of more interest to them than it is to me I will gladly pass on the information.
Perhaps your right about "watchers" being out there, but I doubt that most of them have the same level of interest in Soviet cameras as we do. If they did they would join the forum themselves.
So let's keep our posts open and honest, and if someone gains a bargain as a result so much the better.
Cheers, Jim.
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jul 13 2008 : 6:43:02 PM
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Hi Jim,
You are right that I was too flippant in my comments and of course I realize that either you or Vlad may not have the interest that would make you want to call and buy it with a credit card.
And, the point that I was thinking of, and which you have addressed is a bit of a complicated issue involving many types of situations and ways with dealing with them.
Something that has been on my mind is that sometimes, here on this forum, a member will call attention to a camera for sale, usually on Ebay (but sometimes in a shop), and express that they will be bidding on this camera. Now that is fine, however, sometimes other members have also been watching the auction and have already put in an automated bid or are planning to bid. So a problem can arise that the person who hears a fellow member really wants the camera has to decide whether to go against a fellow member. It can be a hard decision.
Of course it is easy to be happy that someone else is getting a nice thing if you did not want it yourself, as in your case with the hypothetical Sport-2.
Here is what happened to me that I was not sure about how to react. A member brought a camera that was at auction on Ebay to the attention of the forum in a post. The member expressed that they really wanted it badly. I had already seen the camera and put in a high bid to Bidnapper (automated bid) but when I saw how much a fellow member wanted the camera, I cancelled my auto-bid. When the bidding was over, the member who really wanted the camera was outbid by two other bidders and by quite a bit of money. I was willing to pay quite a bit more than anyone and would have no doubt won the camera if I did not cancel my bid in deference to the forum member.
Now, I'm just telling this story to illustrate one point about the possible awkwardness of posting desirable cameras on the forum before the auction for it is over. I would imagine others may have had similar experiences and quite honestly, it doesn't matter much to me if I get a specific camera or not personally, but it does sort of have the effect of making me not want participate as much in the forum.
I'm also for open and honest posts, but for myself I have decided not to initiate or participate in discussions of Ebay auctions that are still active.
There are all kinds of collectors of cameras and some do buy them because they are rare. That can be the main interest a collector has, even if it is not your interest. In fact the competition for rare cameras can be quite astounding if you have ever attended a live camera auction! I think that with most collectors there are several interests motivating them to collect.
So I'm sorry for my flippant remarks in my last post and for being off topic as well, but there are some real issues involved with public remarks, including discussing auctions that are active.
And as to you remark:
"It will be a sad day when we deliberately conceal information from each other in the paranoid fear that someone else will get a bargain. "
I don't believe this is an issue. I don't believe anyone has a "paranoid fear" that someone else will get a bargain. And, of course we do not reveal everything about everything to everyone, publicly all the time ... but does that mean we are deliberately concealing information. If a member sees a rare or otherwise desirable camera on Ebay that they are planning on bidding on, should they post the camera and tell the amount they are planning on bidding? Just because you don't say something doesn't mean you are deliberately concealing it. The forum is for discussing and sharing information that you want to, not telling all all the time. There are folks who don't belong to the forum who "watch" it for clues to where to obtain a rare or desirable camera. Many are dealers and some are also collectors who just don't belong to the forum ... not all collectors belong to the forum ... many very experienced and knowledgeable collectors around the world don't belong to it. Take a look at the first page of Princelles book where he lists many many collectors who don't belong to the forum ... and some who do!
So, Jim, I believe your comments on my post were justified in many respects, but not all.
Regards, Bill
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Juhani Halmeenmaki
cedricfan
Finland
1020 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jul 13 2008 : 11:29:33 PM
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"I'm also for open and honest posts, but for myself I have decided not to initiate or participate in discussions of Ebay auctions that are still active."
Same goes for me. And as it is an auction, I will place my bid as high as I think I can and will pay, plus one euro.
Smena rules |
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James McGee
James McGee
Azerbaijan
192 Posts |
Posted - Jul 14 2008 : 01:21:17 AM
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Hi Bill,
Since we are off topic I will make this my last comment on this subject, but will be happy to continue as a new topic elsewhere if you wish.
I concede that you are perfectly correct in saying that if a forum member declares that he has an interest and intends to bid on a particular item, it then puts other members in an uncomfortable situation if they had intended to bid also. I feel exactly the same as you, and I would not bid on an item if I knew that another forum member wanted the item in question. So yes, I agree, it ‘s not a good idea to declare an intention to bid.
That said, I see no harm in bringing certain items to the attention of other forum members, especially if you don’t intend to bid yourself. Some of the items that come up for sale are very interesting in themselves and it would be a shame if they were not pointed out to other forum members who might otherwise miss the chance to buy something that they really want. Of course this must apply to active auction items, so that members will then have the chance to decide for themselves if they want to bid or not.
As you yourself are very aware, some of the cameras offered for sale on auction sites are obvious fakes, and others fakes, but perhaps not so obvious. I think we have a duty to protect each other by pointing out these items when we see them, but we must qualify what we say by stating exactly why we think the item could be a fake. That way the would be buyer can decide for himself whether to heed the information or ignore it as he chooses. At least he has been warned. Again this must apply to active auction items. It would be pointless and futile pointing out a fake after one of our members has already bought it.
You are of course correct in saying that it is a complicated issue, and there are many facets to the subject. At the end of the day I think we must use a little bit of common sense when referring to auction items, or items for sale in an internet shop. We just need to act in a responsible manner and think of the possible consequences before posting the subject. But it would be a shame if a forum member missed out on a much desired piece of equipment because one of us declined to bring it to the attention of other members.
But I digress. The main point I want to make is that our forums are full of freely written interesting information, comments, views, etc. It would be very sad if we were to feel inhibited in any way.
My comment about “paranoia” was in reference to the “watchers”. My view is let them watch, and to hell with them. I wouldn’t want to inhibit what I say because of these people. If we did that it means they win, and we lose.
As things are I for one really enjoy reading the excellent information, views, articles, and comments, etc from our very knowledgeable members (including your good self) and many others.
I certainly don’t want to lose any of that, regardless of who else may be “watching”.
Very best wishes, and regards, Jim. |
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okynek
759 Posts |
Posted - Jul 18 2008 : 11:44:55 PM
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Nothing bad is someone "watching" or better to say reading this Web Side. I do not believe it may help Al-quida to build atomic bomb. But it indefinitely helps to bring more peoples to enjoy collecting cameras. And in turn help us discover unknown yet cameras, and they modifications, and in turn let us even more enjoy this side and collect Russian camera. Win-win to all who contributes and who watching here.
I'm living example of great cooperation, help, and shearing of information on this Web side. Recently Aidas post link to nice Commemorative Smena 6, what most members probably have, but it was missing from my collection. If not Aidas’s hint I would miss it. Now I have it. No less to add that this camera has Buy It Now price, so it was no fight to buy it.
So concept is working.
Few hi-end (rare) and semi-hi-end cameras were also pointed on this Web side recently. And it was very exiting for me to watch them to be sold.
I believe all this “make believe” world of collecting of anything is only about excitements and enjoy to sharing this excitements. If we start hide stuff and thoughts, make “privet clubs”, or “the chosen circles” then all the excitement will vanish. What the point to collect then? Cameras became door holders, pretty bad door holders actually. Do not let it happens!!!!
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jul 19 2008 : 12:09:14 AM
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Okynek,
I don't think this is the issue, no one is trying to hide anything from anyone. The actual problem is, if someone posts a link to active auction it would be courteous to other members to fist either buy it or win the auction and then comment on it. Basically it would be fair if members did not announce their intention to buy the item before they actually do, because it will discourage other members from either bidding or purchasing it first because they do not want to upset fellow members of this forum. It should be first come first served or the highest bid wins (so do not go against the natural order of the auction by psychologically tainting it  ), it should only be fair this way. So if someone say I want to bid on this and does not follow through then the item is lost to some non-member with other members being courteous and withholding their bids which may have been much higher than the person who announced it.
So in short I do not disagree with what you just said but what you're talking about is a non-issue really..
Vlad |
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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Jul 19 2008 : 10:29:11 AM
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Hello,
Can I only say that the three digit Fed 1a is always to sell? 
So our publicity (and notoriety!) is not enough to have a camera sold? It's discouraging!
Jacques. |
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A three digit Fed 1a!
