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Forerunners of Kiev 1947

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T O P I C R E V I E W
Jacques M.	Posted - Jul 28 2010 : 09:11:30 AM Hello, First, sorry for my long silence: my computer broke down two months ago and as I am stupid, I had not made copies. So I have lost all my datas... I received lately two interesting Contaxes. Of course,I would not speak of them if they were not in close relationship with Kievs. http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2872010_005.JPG On the right: a Contax II of the last batch, n� O.64166 with a 1,5/5cm Sonnar T coated. Made before Dresden was bombed in february 1945. The remaining camera bodies and spare parts were sent to Kiev and they were used as production training. The first "Kiev 1947" were made with these parts, at least those with script re-engraved front plate (at the reverse of the front plate, the stroke of the "t" is lower than on the Contax Jena). On the left, an early 1947 Contax Jena n� 11826, certainly with the original lens. History says that the Soviet forces asked for three production lines, that the Contax Jena and some Kiev 1947 (those with the "block" inscription??)were produced and that these lines were shipped to Kiev with some German engineers. No production in Ukraine before 1948, as it seems. Unhappily, it's almost impossible to get a Kiev 1947. If not, I would have made close comparisons with these two ones... Amiti�s. Jacques.
96 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First)
SteveA	Posted - Nov 20 2024 : 09:39:48 AM http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/20112024_IMG_17342.jpg And the chassis number..
SteveA	Posted - Nov 20 2024 : 09:38:50 AM http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/20112024_IMG_17482.jpg for some reason the image failed to load last attempt!
SteveA	Posted - Nov 20 2024 : 09:35:23 AM I was looking at some pictures I took of 501774, which I overhauled may years ago. I noticed an N on the slow speeds mechanism similar to the one elsewhere in this thread. The chassis number is 1767 http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/20112024_IMG_1748(2).jpg
Jacques M.	Posted - Nov 18 2024 : 08:22:36 AM I have a look inside as soon as I can. Thanks, Ulrich.
uwittehh	Posted - Nov 17 2024 : 5:26:25 PM Jacques, nice find. I'm curious to see if there are also engravings of the fitters inside. You remember the "C/A" in my Jena Contax. Ulrich http://fotos.cconin.de
Jacques M.	Posted - Nov 14 2024 : 10:02:53 AM Another Jena Contax II here, belonging to the 15xxx batch (in fact, 15201 to 15450, mounted in 1949). No real changes, compared to the precedent batches, except the back which is heavy, as made of brass rather alloy. Some photos (ask for others if useful): http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/14112024_IMG_1805.JPG http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/14112024_IMG_1807.JPG http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/14112024_IMG_1809.JPG Amiti�s. Jacques.
uwittehh	Posted - Mar 08 2024 : 5:29:13 PM Treehorn, nice that you were able to open it. I have never seen a scratched in "III" on any Kiev. Really interesting. Maybe this could be an original Contax shutter? Ulrich http://fotos.cconin.de
treehorn	Posted - Feb 16 2024 : 01:22:02 AM Finally I found some time to open the black #28073. There is no number at the shutter, only the marking "III" http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/1622024_28073_02.jpg http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/1622024_28073_01.jpg
cedricfan	Posted - Jan 31 2024 : 11:34:09 PM I would never have guessed, that there has been so small amount of people making the actual cameras from pieces, this is far from serial production. Best regards, Juhani
uwittehh	Posted - Jan 31 2024 : 3:08:20 PM Luiz and treehorn, thanks. The history of the Kiev is very interesting. And I think that there are more secrets that we don't know until now :-) Jacques, the N looks like mine. And typically there are the two scratced lines under and above the digits of the serial number. Seems to be made from the same person. Ulrich http://fotos.cconin.de
Luiz Paracampo	Posted - Dec 12 2023 : 4:34:56 PM Excellent historic data Ulrich Great research Regards
Jacques M.	Posted - Dec 12 2023 : 03:06:50 AM Checking my photos, a "N" too on my Kiev 1948: http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/12122023_Contax II 1948 002.jpg
treehorn	Posted - Dec 11 2023 : 5:57:32 PM Thanks Ulrich and Jacques. I hope I can find some time at the next weekend to open the camera. I also have a earlier Jena Contax (chrome) with the number 15325. According to Bernd Otto, that camera should date from 1949 and the cameras with numbers 27801-28100 from 1950. The information about the early Kiev-II export version was new to me. I'm still looking for one of these, there were a few on ebay recently and now I'm annoyed that I didn't get one. Best Andreas
Jacques M.	Posted - Dec 11 2023 : 4:29:32 PM Many thanks fot this very complete explanation, Ulrich! And I had forgotten that famous photo with the "Jenaers"... Really, I should check my own Jena Contaxes and early Kievs... Amiti�s. Jacques.
uwittehh	Posted - Dec 11 2023 : 11:31:37 AM Jacques, yes, there are more markings existing: 1) On my early export KIEV II from 1950 there is the name "Hans" written on the back under the film pressure plate. According to Altix these 1949/50 early export KIEVs (with engraved and not stamped name on the front) are made in 1947 in Jena and were shipped to Kiev so that the new workers can learn how to assemble/diassemble the camera. In 1949/50 these cameras were engraved bilingual, got a serial number and were sold then: http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/11122023_IMGL0008.jpg And look at the small engraved "N" near the shutter number (also the 1950 KIEV II): http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/11122023_IMGL0028.jpg 2) On my Jena Contax with serial 27885 there are also engravements from August Coutandin, see the "AC" on two places of the shutter: http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/11122023_jenc05.jpg http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/11122023_jenc06.jpg 3) And see the Jena Contax 18133: Also the "AC" and the there is a "E" engraved. Maybe the E stands for "Hilmar Eichler": http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/11122023_IMGL0381.jpg And here is the Jena Contax crew, there you can see August and Hans: http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/11122023_jccrew.JPG Ulrich http://fotos.cconin.de
Jacques M.	Posted - Dec 11 2023 : 03:07:44 AM Very interesting markings! Thanks, Ulrich! I had seen some on my own cameras, but payed no attention. Stupid of me. Are there other ones? Amiti�s. Jacques.
uwittehh	Posted - Dec 10 2023 : 2:38:30 PM Treehorn, congratulations! What a great find! I have 2 Jena Contax (in chrome) with serial numer 278xx, so close to yours. Are you able to disassemlbe them? It would be very interesting if there are markings from the craftsman that has assembled them. Mine are both marked with a CA or AC, which could be the initials of August Coutandin, a guy who worked at Zeiss Jena in those years. See the picture for the marking: http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/10122023_IMGL4866.jpg Ulrich http://fotos.cconin.de
Jacques M.	Posted - Dec 09 2023 : 09:58:54 AM Congratulations for your Jena Contax "black face". Rare cameras! Probably around fifty in the 28xxx range, and perhaps some others on the 305xx range, by my data... Thanks for the photos of your #28073. The 2/50mm Sonnar (not the usual 5cm) is interesting too. Your "black face" is not the only late Jena Contax to have received such a Sonnar in millimeters (still by my data). Amiti�s. Jacques.
treehorn	Posted - Dec 08 2023 : 10:33:15 AM And there was a very interesting Jena-Kiev (or Kiev-Jena) at Wetzlar Camera Auction #5 in October 2023, Lot 228: http://s759420438.online.de/A5/mobile/index.html You can find it at liveauctioneers (login required): https://www.liveauctioneers.com/price-result/arsenal-kiev-ii-carl-zeiss-jena-contax-ii/ It was sold for about 14.000 Euro. From the auction text: "Probably the rarest version of the Kiev II, still produced by Carl Zeiss Jena. Two serial numbers, 5913 and 470038, as well as the "Carl Zeiss Jena"-logo engraved on the accessory shoe. The number 16 stamped inside twice. The back door without engraving of a serial number. The name ring of the later, so-called "no name" lens, without any engraving of a model or manufacturer designation, just engraved with "Jena 1:2 f=50 mm Nr. 3501248". Very few of these cameras are known and have not been shown in any specialist literature to date. The total production is unlikely to have exceeded 50 pieces."
treehorn	Posted - Dec 08 2023 : 10:23:22 AM Hello, we had a lot about the Jena Contax, including the "ivory" version. There is also a black face version. Some cameras were sold recently at Leitz Photographica Auctions: 28039 + Sonnar 2/5cm T (3059673): Leitz Photographica Auction #41 (November 2022); hammer price 3120 Euro https://www.leitz-auction.com/en/Carl-Zeiss-Jena-Contax-II-Black-Face/AI-41-41100 28068: Leitz Photographica Auction #37 (November 2020); hammer price ca. 4000 Euro 28079: Leitz Photographica Auction #36 (June 2020); hammer price ca. 5000 Euro I was very lucky to find another one of them with the serial number 28073. Als serial numbers are very close and all cameras show the same characteristics of the Jena Contax. http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/8122023_Contax-Jena_black_02.jpg http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/8122023_Contax-Jena_black_04.jpg http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/8122023_Contax-Jena_black_08.jpg
Elmar Lang	Posted - Mar 28 2023 : 02:59:16 AM Hello, just to add some further data, before finding the time to take proper pictures of the piece, I can say that my "Jena" Contax is body nr. 27893 (same number, engraved to the inside of the back, "heavy" sheet-brass type); the lens mounted on it, is a Carl Zeiss Jena Sonnar 50/2 "red T", nr. 3051152, from a batch of 1500 pieces, whose production was set in the summer of 1947. All the best, Enzo
Jacques M.	Posted - Mar 25 2023 : 12:01:16 PM I have opened it to know more. But it is "only" an ordinary Jena Contax. Here is a photo of the prism. With the X, no doubt it is a Dresden part. A good number of early Kievs have this same prism which comes from the "transportation" from Dresden to Kiev. http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/2532023_IMG_1096.JPG Usually, the Jena Contaxes have a prism with only one inside visible line, from the front left to the back right. The later Kievs too, but every FSU collector knows that Comments are welcome! Amiti�s. Jacques.
Jacques M.	Posted - Mar 21 2023 : 12:06:33 PM Of course, this camera has nothing in common with that one: http://ussrphoto.com/Forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2827
Jacques M.	Posted - Mar 21 2023 : 10:04:01 AM Absolutely nothing on (and inside) the body. Just what could be a serial number on the back, half hidden by the film roller: perhaps 11875, at first sight... http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/2132023_IMG_1051.JPG This camera has all the visible features of the Jena Contax, except the finder which shows the remarkable X when you look through the large window: a Dresden Contax feature (impossible to show). I wonder where and by whom it was made: perhaps mounted for black market... Impossible to trace when there is no number... Amiti�s. Jacques. PS: I bought it without lens. The western Sonnar was added for the photo.
Jacques M.	Posted - Mar 21 2023 : 09:48:43 AM But it is not numbered: http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/2132023_IMG_1059.JPG http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/2132023_IMG_1053.JPG
Jacques M.	Posted - Mar 21 2023 : 09:40:51 AM Hello, Another Jena Contax arrived here yesterday. http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/2132023_IMG_1061.JPG http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/2132023_IMG_1058.JPG
Fotohuis	Posted - Jan 06 2023 : 07:05:25 AM Robert "De enige beperking in je fotografie ben je zelf" http://gallery.fotohuisrovo.nl/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/fotohuisrovo/
Fotohuis	Posted - Jan 06 2023 : 06:56:55 AM Well I am just back from Ukraine last month and I took a complete Kiev-4AM set with a beam splitter, 50mm J-8M, a 35mm J-12 and a 85mm J-9. Do not ask me what I was doing there, it had something to do with a Leopard (1) tank training. It is a great camera set and I am very happy with it. For the rest I have seen a lot of misery and too many funerals. I also took my Leica M7 set with me (and back). So I made some photos on Kodak 5222 XX film and on the way back to the Netherlands I have visited a former Ukrainian photo model living in D�sseldorf (Germany) now. It was an emotional visit because just before the war she had a cancer diagnose, whomp removed and bleeding on the way to Germany. Fortunately a little bit recovered but we talked a lot and I made a photo shoot with her. I am sure she could use the extra money for it. Robert "De enige beperking in je fotografie ben je zelf" http://gallery.fotohuisrovo.nl/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/fotohuisrovo/
Jacques M.	Posted - Jan 06 2023 : 05:47:16 AM ... and the similarities between the leather case and the leatherette are astonishing.
xatnoc	Posted - Jan 06 2023 : 05:09:13 AM regarding the ivory 27972 Contax in the thread above: the leather case is most likely a true one..........
Jacques M.	Posted - Jan 05 2023 : 11:30:44 AM Another regular Jena Contax here (s/n 27996), that time with a Topogon 25mm and its correct universal finder (both added after). http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/612023_IMG_0868.JPG The Topogon is said to have inspired the Orion 15. Jacques.
Jacques M.	Posted - Jan 05 2023 : 03:36:54 AM Hem... I have just verified my own listing and there is no doubt. The 27972 is a fake. I should have checked earlier. Thanks, Stefan and Ulrich! Amiti�s.
uwittehh	Posted - Jan 04 2023 : 3:37:42 PM Hi Stefan, I think you are right. According to the data I have the Ivory 27972 is a fake camera. Ulrich http://fotos.cconin.de
Jacques M.	Posted - Jan 04 2023 : 11:03:56 AM Hi Stefan, I don't own any ivory: it's out of my possibilities! But I know these tests. My "regular" Jena Contaxes are OK, except for the first ones concerning the weight of the back. Of course... Amiti�s.
xatnoc	Posted - Jan 04 2023 : 10:36:41 AM Dear Jacques, make some quick tests: 1) remove the back: does it feel heavy (a) or light (b)? 2) look through the finder: is the distance meter silver (a) or golden (b) ? 3) remove one of the 4 screws that fix the film plate (preferably one at the bottom: is the head of the screw cylindric (i.e. massive) (a) or more filigree (b) ? if all 3 answers are (a), then it is likely a true ivory Contax..... Good luck and report back, thanks! best Stefan
Jacques M.	Posted - Jan 04 2023 : 07:31:59 AM Hello, When I began collecting these cameras, I was much surprised by their general condition: many of them seem almost new. Visibly, not or only few used: gifts, as it is often said? The paint of the ivory ones is of course more fragile than the chrome of the regular ones. And this 27972 seems to have all the external details of the Jena Contaxes. So, original, repaint, or even fake? That said, you know these cameras much better than me, Stefan! Amiti�s. Jacques.
xatnoc	Posted - Jan 03 2023 : 11:16:36 PM Hello everyone, I have a concern that the ivory Contax 27972 shown in this thread above represents an authentic ivory camera. This notion is for the simple reason that the camera looks too good, the paint looks too fresh. I have followed the fate of this camera: first it was sold at a German Auction house, "Cornwall" in Cologne in auction 38, then it appeared on eBay again in 2016 where it was sold to the next owner. In my data, I also find a comment of a previous ivory Contax expert who expressed the same concern as me: looks too good. All true ivory Contax show some wear and the color starts to disintegrate. Using this criteria, any fake has a difficult position, as paint cannot be easily converted to paint that has already experienced >70 years. Similar situation as in paintings.......
Elmar Lang	Posted - Sep 03 2021 : 08:32:44 AM Dear Jacques, I think that your listing would be most invaluable to those involved in the study and research about the evolution from the Contax to the Kiev lines. Congratulations for your research effort, Enzo
Jacques M.	Posted - Sep 01 2021 : 10:43:00 AM Thanks, Enzo. I will add it in my listing. For those who would be interested by that listing (around 240 Jena Contaxes), just pm. Unless Vlad thinks it could be interesting in our wiki? Amiti�s. Jacques.
Elmar Lang	Posted - Aug 31 2021 : 04:57:18 AM Hello, just to add a little further detail to this interesting thread, I would like to add the data of my "Jena" Contax: S.N.: 27893, also present on the inner surface of the "heavy" type, sheet-brass back; "square" accessory shoe. Lens: Carl Zeiss Jena Sonnar 1:2 5cm. "red T" s.n. 3051152. All the best, Enzo (E.L.)
Jacques M.	Posted - Jul 08 2021 : 08:40:21 AM Another Jena Contax here (# 18055), already with the heavy back. http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/872021_IMG_0388.JPG The lens is an "exotic" Sonnar, already shown in another topic. Amiti�. Jacques.
Jacques M.	Posted - Mar 04 2020 : 08:19:12 AM To compare with a genuine ivory one. In fact, a fake too! (please see Xatnoc's and Ulrich's posts below) http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/432020_Jena Contax 27972 1.jpg http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/432020_Jena Contax 27972 3.jpg Amiti�s. Jacques.
Jacques M.	Posted - Mar 04 2020 : 08:14:47 AM Just for the pleasure, two photos of a fake Jena Contax "ivory", recently sold on the net: http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/432020_Jena Contax 27976 fake 4.jpg http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/432020_Jena Contax 27976 fake 2.jpg
SteveA	Posted - Jul 10 2018 : 03:04:46 AM Just seen Michels post from Mar 04 2011 - I have Kiev 481100 in my collection, just 4 behind his camera. Mine also has 1100 engraved into the alloy shutter assembly.
Jacques M.	Posted - Jul 09 2018 : 09:08:26 AM And the curious winding button. http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/972018_IMG_0109.JPG Amiti�s. Jacques.
Jacques M.	Posted - Jul 09 2018 : 09:06:20 AM An other Jena-Contax here. The s/n 11829, next to my 11826 already seen above in the thread. Externally, there is only one difference. The winding button has a different shape (screw and "bowl"). Nothing else before dismounting. The general look first: http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/972018_IMG_0108.JPG
kievan81	Posted - May 13 2013 : 04:30:47 AM missed 1 image http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1352013_kiev2rewind.jpg
kievan81	Posted - May 12 2013 : 10:15:26 PM Hi Vlad, I'm new to this forum. I just received my Kiev 2. I found your '52 Kiev 2 very interesting, as it is very different from mine. Perhaps yours considered the rare one here's mine: http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1252013_kiev2front.jpg http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1252013_kiev2foot.jpg http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1252013_kiev2roundfoot.jpg http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1252013_kiev2self.jpg http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1252013_kiev2serial.jpg
Jacques M.	Posted - Feb 13 2012 : 10:28:59 AM Merci Michel! But I think that your body is most interesting with the flat top on "3" (Dresden side), the black ring under the selftimer (Jena specification)... All a world in a camera! Amiti�s.
Jacques M.	Posted - Feb 13 2012 : 10:23:19 AM Always on this 1948 Kiev, a ZK lens. I thought till now that 1948 ones were collapsible? The numbering seems correct. http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1322012_Kiev 48 3.jpg Are there other "solid" 1948 ZK that you would know? Amiti�s. Jacques.
Michel	Posted - Feb 13 2012 : 10:22:46 AM Hi Jacques, Absolutely splendid camera ! Lucky guy� Mine is not so beautiful, and the lens is� a Jupiter #54xxx Sincerly,et � bient�t, Michel
Jacques M.	Posted - Feb 13 2012 : 09:35:21 AM Hello, I received some weeks ago a 1948 Kiev. Here is a photo: http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1322012_Kiev 48 1.jpg In fact, mine is most on the Jena/Kiev side: no "3" with a flat top, for example. Of course, there are Dresden arrows with a central extension. And four rows on the rewind button: http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1322012_Kiev 48 2.jpg These four rows are present on all the prewar Contax II, early Kievs up to some 1949 ones, and on early Jena Contaxes (my # 30xxx doesn't have). Three rows seems the rule after.
Jacques M.	Posted - Oct 07 2011 : 08:14:39 AM Thanks, Ulrich. There are probably two possibilities: - on the three production lines, two only are shipped to Kiev. The remaining one is used to make Jena Contaxes when necessary. That was the original promise of the USSR authorities. But it seems that this promise was not hold and all was sent to Kiev. Hence my second supposition. - In 1946-47, the three production lines are made and immediately tested. Some rare early Jena Contaxes and Kiev Contaxes (those with the two numberings) are mounted. Besides, some 2000 parts are made and set apart. They will serve to mount the other series, from 1948. About that, we can suppose that most of these Jena Contaxes were offered as gifts, rather than sold: the greatest number of these cameras seem unused, contrarily to the contemporaneous Kievs. Zeiss Opton (West Germany) obtained the legal rights on "Contax" only in 1954. But the Kievs could continue, of course. Concerning these curious late Jena Kiev, they are all in the last range of 100 cameras, serial number 30501-30600. Only 6 are actually known. I have absolutely no detail about them. Always gifts for Russians of rank, perhaps? Amiti�s. Jacques.
uwittehh	Posted - Oct 06 2011 : 2:25:44 PM Jacques, that's apoint that I am wondering about too. Unfortunately the documents end in late 1947. They say that the Saalfeld production line was shipped to Kiev. The document says also that in the late Jena Contaxes there can be found front masks that were made of reengraved Kiev plates. So maybe the late Jena Contaxes were made in Kiev for special purposes? As I know the east germans have no permission to make ragnefinders under the name Contax in that time when e.g. your late Jena Contax was built. Ulrich http://fotos.cconin.de
Jacques M.	Posted - Oct 06 2011 : 10:39:03 AM Hi Ulrich, There is something I don't really understand in the chronology about the Jena Contax. From your articles (the Conkies), I understand that: 1- the production lines are first made and tested, 2- the first 1947 Jena Contax and Kiev Contax are made, 3- the three production lines are dismounted and sent to Kiev. OK. But with what were the following Jena Contaxes made? From spare parts, originally made in 1946-47 and used when necessary to mount the other series? What was the exact date of the sending to Kiev? Sorry: my German is non-existent... Merci. Jacques.
uwittehh	Posted - Oct 02 2011 : 04:45:10 AM Jacques, no, you are not :-) With the knowledge of the history the Kiev/Contax is the most interesting camera to collect. And the Jena Contax seems to be the rarest german rangefinder build by Zeiss. Ulrich http://fotos.cconin.de
Jacques M.	Posted - Oct 02 2011 : 03:23:29 AM Thanks a lot for your pictures ! Very interested by the details: I don't dare to open my Jena Contaxes... So, I am no more the only one to be crazy with these cameras... Amiti�s. Jacques.
uwittehh	Posted - Oct 02 2011 : 02:42:09 AM Now that I own a Jena Contax too I can confirm to all points that Jacques listed. It's a really interesting camera. Here are some pictures: The feather on the selftimer release and the black painted ring under the selftimer lever: The shoe with the number and the logo. An interesting detail on the film reminder disk, the digits are engraved a bit more to the inner part of it. And no flat "3": This seems to be really interesting, the shutter has no number engraved. On my Kiev II from 1949 there is a hand engraved number on it. Maybe the shutters are from the same factory and the ones for the Kievs were engraved by hand to distinguish them from the ones for the Jena Contax? That's funny, there are parts made of cardboard to shield the rangefinder prism from light (the brown/black part on left-top of the picture). It just felt out and I wondered first where I have to reinstall it...: And the result after reassembling: Now it's a real beauty, when it arrives here the chrome on the top and front mask was a bit yellow tinted, then I found out that was nicotine (it stinks during removing it...)! So it seems that the camera was sitting the most time on a shelf in the household of a heavy smoker. That was the main reason why I disassembled the chrome parts carefully. By the way, the lens is a rigid Sonnar in an aluminium housing. Like the Zorki lens on my Kiev II from 1949. Ulrich http://fotos.cconin.de
Vlad	Posted - Jul 20 2011 : 6:36:32 PM hmm, this is excellent research, Jacques! A great timeline for the evolution of the camera! Thank you! regarding the shoe, it's possible they didn't have any for production on Arsenal so they only used them for prototypes.. Cheers, Vlad
Jacques M.	Posted - Jul 20 2011 : 06:50:44 AM Hi Vlad, Here is how I figure all that. 1- Contax and Kiev prototypes are made in Jena. They have two serial numbers: the Zeiss and Kiev ones, and the Carl Zeiss Jena logo. All that on the shoe. On the front, the Contax or the Kiev inscription. Of course, absolutely no difference between these Kievs and Contaxes as they were all made together from machine tools delivered from the German to the Russians. 2- At the same time, Dresden parts are sent to Kiev. The production first begins with these only parts. And little by little, some Jena parts are sent to Kiev. It explains why the 1947 Kievs are almost "pure" Dresden cameras. 3- The Jena machine tools arrive at Kiev. The pieces are mixed Jena/Dresden (1948). 4- Then, little by little, original Dresden parts are missing: cameras look like Jena's, except for some detail. 5- Machine tools are modified to increase the production. Kievs are simplified (from c. 1951). So, you are right for the most important part, Vlad. But I wonder why one finds the square accessory shoe (Jena part) only on the prototypes and on all the Jena Contaxes, but on no Kiev, whatever its date be... Another mystery... Amiti�s. Jacques.
Vlad	Posted - Jul 19 2011 : 9:56:56 PM Jacques, as I've been following this thread, and my understanding is that it seems like most Kievs do come from Jena Contaxes, right? The Dresden Contax details seem to different from the Kievs that I've seen. Do you have an example of a Kiev with Dresden parts? Or at least one that you suspect is Dresden parts? Cheers, Vlad
Jacques M.	Posted - Jun 12 2011 : 10:45:18 AM Hello, Here are the external differences between prewar or wartime Contaxes and the Jena Contaxes. If it can help some colleagues to identify better their 1947-49 Kiev, specially about their origins: does mine come from Dresden parts or from Jena?... On the cover of Jena Contaxes: 1- View counter: "3" with round top, flat on prewar or wartime Contaxes. Idem for the distance scale (front part). 2- Rewind knob: arrow without central extension. 3- Rewind knob: central screw: 6mm (5mm on other ones) 4- Accessory shoe: square shape. 5- Accessory shoe: logo "Carl Zeiss Jena". 6- Rangefinder: grey/grey rather than green/yellow. On the front: 7- Selftimer: black painted rim under selftimer. 8- Contax engraving different. Clearly visible: distances between C/o and n/x are more important. Rear part: 9- No logo. Back part: 10- Accessory shoe: number of circles more important. 11- Accessory shoe: tripod with moulded lines on the two parts, 12- Release button: with concentric circles. It is interesting to add that Jena Contaxes may have slightly different front engravings, concerning the exact shape of the O, for example (less or more flat). And the rear/back part is heavier on some rare Jena Contaxes (c.175g instead c.115g). Last: a flash sync on the cover (last batch only). Very probably, there are other differences I missed! Please, don't hesitate to add your remarks. For the differences between early Kievs, don't miss the very interesting article on Luiz's site ! (Written by Claudio Asquini). http://www.novacon.com.br/asquini1/kiev1.htm Amiti�s. Jacques.
Jacques M.	Posted - Mar 09 2011 : 11:34:46 AM Here is the leather bag of the Kiev serial # 47386 (DVD picture). Not very far from my own ones, I think. http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/932011_15.jpg Amiti�s. Jacques.
Jacques M.	Posted - Mar 09 2011 : 10:16:49 AM Ah! I feel better! Thanks to you, Michel and Vlad! Your pictures are very interesting. Vlad, your 1952 Kiev seems to be a "simplified" version, compared to the 1948 (Michel's), 1949 (yours) and 1950 (mine) ones. As for your 1948 one, Michel, it is a "pure" Dresden one, except for the black rim under the selftimer which is a Jena detail. I had not noticed the difference about the "3": I will use it later (I am preparing the list of differences between Dresden and Jena Contaxes) Alexei Nikitin (thanks to him!) sends me a mail in which he explains a part of the story. For him, the Dresden production lines were not completely destroyed and could have been repaired. And as the railway gauge was not the same in USSR (larger than in Europe), the trains had to stop a long time before being discharged and the contents sent to Ukraine... It would explain why the Jena material arrived more or less at the same time in Kiev. And why Dresden and Jena parts are mixed on early Kievs. Thanks once more for the pictures which show perfectly the evolution of the camera... Amiti�s. Jacques.
Vlad	Posted - Mar 06 2011 : 4:55:34 PM As promised here is my comparison of Kiev 49 vs 52 http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/632011_IMG_0562.JPG The top cover of the '49 Kiev has more rounded stamped edges than '52, that one is a lot more defined http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/632011_IMG_0563.JPG You can see edge difference more on this image, '49 is on the right, '52 on the left http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/632011_IMG_0564.JPG Rewind knobs: '49 on the right, 52 on the left. Arrows are different and the '49 has 4 rows of diamonds on the side of the knob, vs 3 rows on '52. Also the inner knob is of more diameter on '52 http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/632011_IMG_0565.JPG '49 on top, '52 on the bottom: The bottoms of these cameras show the most difference. While '49 is very fine machined, has more concentric circles around the locks and the tripod socket mount, the '52 seems a lot more simplified in that regard. You can tell that '49 is still German parts here while '52 is already streamlined Soviet design. http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/632011_IMG_0566.JPG More detail on the quality of machining around the locks, '49 is on the right http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/632011_IMG_0567.JPG More detail on the tripod socket. '49 is on the right, '52 on the left http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/632011_IMG_0568.JPG Frame counter dial gears are also different, with '49 having a more coarse gear teeth. '49 is on the right. Cheers, Vlad
Vlad	Posted - Mar 04 2011 : 6:33:03 PM Jacques, I don't know if it helps, I've never seen such leather cases on Kievs.. I will try to take some comparison pictures of my 2 Kievs this weekend. Vlad
Michel	Posted - Mar 04 2011 : 12:06:13 PM Hi Jacques, I send you four photos of my 48 1104 KIEV. Here, you can see the shape of the shoe : http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/432011_K1.JPG Four rows of diamonds, here : http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/432011_K2.JPG See the groove on the distance wheel and notice the shape of the cipher "3" on the counter : http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/432011_K3.JPG And here, see the foot and the rewind knob : http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/432011_K4.JPG I don't know if this can help, as I have no Jena Contax and Alain is no more here to give details or advice. Amiti�s, Michel.
Jacques M.	Posted - Mar 01 2011 : 2:03:36 PM http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/132011_Jena Contax bags 003.JPG That time, the 1948 is the lower. The stiffener stripes exist only on this one. The grain of the leather is more rough. The two qualities of leather seem to exist on the 1947 Kiev. But it must be confirmed. See for example this 1947 Kiev case: http://www.dvdtechcameras.com/collect/arsenal/arsenal.htm The only difference seems to be the polygonal nose rather than round on Jena Contaxes. I don't know if other early Kievs (1948, 1949) have such cases... Amiti�s. Jacques.
Jacques M.	Posted - Mar 01 2011 : 12:20:01 PM http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/132011_Jena Contax bags 002.JPG http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/132011_Jena Contax bags 001.JPG The leather bags of my two Jena Contaxes. The first one (=upper) is the 1948 one, the lower is the 1951-56 one. The general shape, the sewing and the nose are the same. Prewar or wartime Contaxes don't have that sort of bag. But they can be seen for early Kievs with noses a bit different. Some more detailed pictures to come. Amiti�s. Jacques.
Jacques M.	Posted - Feb 27 2011 : 09:40:03 AM Thanks for your friendly answer, Vlad. For the moment, I don't know if somebody is able to answer your question: it would be necessary to list the known 1947-50 Kiev, to examine them closely, and to compare with different batches of Jena Contaxes! It seems that there is a great variability for the early Kievs. Perhaps because Dresden, Jena and home made (=Arsenal) parts were mixed. On the other hand, I don't understand why the Jena Contaxes seem to be "pure": my 1951-56 one, at this date, should be really the twin brother of a Kiev. Your guessing of 1952 is probably not bad. Up to 1951 and possibly 1952, Kievs III could have Jupiter with Sonnar lenses, and DIN meters (rather than GOST). So why not 1952? Too, it would be interesting to know if the machine tools shipped from Germany in 1947 were always working five years later... Probably Arsenal had made other ones (or modified the German ones) with some improving details, for example to produce more... Some last pictures in a while about the leather bags of my two Jena Contaxes. Amiti�s. Jacques.
Vlad	Posted - Feb 25 2011 : 6:35:06 PM Jacques, it's very fascinating and detailed research, I've been following it closely, I bow to your attention to detail, thank you very much for posting this! In fact it does seem that both cameras are very closely related if not exactly the same considering mostly German parts were used in the early Kiev production. Apart from screws they look identical . I wonder at which point they started to deviate. I will compare these pictures to my 1952 Kiev and I will also compare my '52 to the '49 that I have. My guess is they started running out of German part sometime close to 1952 maybe? What do you think? Cheers, Vlad
Jacques M.	Posted - Feb 25 2011 : 04:53:45 AM Hello! No comment? I had forgotten something interesting (for me!). On my two Jena Contaxes, the rangefinder/viewfinder is grey on grey. To compare with orange-pink on green for all my other Contax and Kiev cameras. It seems a typical feature of Jena Contaxes: it is even used to recognize the forgeries. So, it could be useful to know the colour on very early Kievs... Amiti�s. Jacques.
Jacques M.	Posted - Feb 12 2011 : 11:58:43 AM So, it seems there were no real borders for late Jena Contaxes and Kievs of the same years. The two factories were both behind the Iron Curtain: so all that is probably a question of evolution, perhaps even for the two cameras together, more or less at the same time. Anyway, the last part of this last batch contains several Jena Contaxes with the Kiev logo on the front. Perhaps my # 30536 Jena Contax has "Kiev" on the back of the front? Eager to have your comments. I wish you have some interesting Kievs to compare with these ones... Amiti�s. Jacques.
Jacques M.	Posted - Feb 12 2011 : 10:53:14 AM On this picture (Kiev always on the right), the release button is the same. More circles on the square part of the shoe for the Jena Contax, which seems to be a distinctive feature. The triangular part too is slightly different: more space between the lines and the rim. And if the back is much more heavier on this Jena Contax (175g against 113g for the Kiev), one cannot see it. http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1222011_Jena Contax-Kiev 006.JPG Last picture. From left to right: 1948 Jena Contax, 1951/56 Jena Contax, 1950 Kiev. One can see that the rewind button is not the same everywhere: four rows of diamonds on the 1948, only three on the two others. It's interesting to notice that all wartime and prewar Contax II have four rows. http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1222011_12 02 001.JPG
Jacques M.	Posted - Feb 12 2011 : 10:08:00 AM At the beginning of this topic, I had put some pictures comparing the Jena Contax 1948 and a wartime Contax II made in Dresden. Now, a comparison between the 1951-56 Jena Contax and the Kiev # 504664. The Kiev is always on the right. http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1222011_Jena Contax-Kiev 001.JPG No real difference on this first picture, except for the distance wheel: no groove on the Kiev. But my earlier Kiev # 503737 has one... http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1222011_Jena Contax-Kiev 002.JPG A distinctive detail on Jena Contaxes: all have a square shaped shoe. Some early Kievs have it too, probably coming from the same Jena parts. No square shoe on wartime or prewar Dresden Contaxes. The flash synch is a rare feature on Jena Contaxes. DVD says that a 1954 Kiev II preserie had it too. Where was it? On the top or under the finder? http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1222011_Jena Contax-Kiev 004.JPG Once more, no difference.
Jacques M.	Posted - Feb 11 2011 : 08:40:00 AM First, some pict. of the Jena Contax alone. The flash sync is a distinctive detail of this batch. http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1122011_Jena contax 1951 001.JPG http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1122011_Jena contax 1951 003.JPG http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1122011_Jena contax 1951 004.JPG The distance wheel (pict. 3) always have a groove. This one is less deep than on my 1948 Jena Contax.
Jacques M.	Posted - Feb 11 2011 : 07:38:30 AM Received today my second Jena Contax. From the last batch, it's a very rare camera: only 100 were made. Nobody exactly knows when this batch was made: one speaks of somewhere between 1951 and 1956. Nor why: at that date, the use of the name "Contax" was forbidden behind the iron curtain. And the Kievs II and III were in production since a long time... And about the question "where", I even wonder if they were not made in Ukraine... After all, some of these late Jena Contax have a front plate engraved with the name Kiev!! So it's most interesting to compare this scarce camera with Kievs II of the same years. I will post pictures as soon as possible. For the moment, I can say there are only some light differences with my 1948 one, except for the lens (a rare postwar CZJ 1,5/5cm) and the back part. It weighs 175g, compared to my 1948's one: 119g. These cameras with heavy back parts are still rarer than with light ones... Amiti�s. Jacques.
Jacques M.	Posted - Sep 08 2010 : 07:55:14 AM Hi Aidas! Probably the best book... I don't have it. Don't hesitate to correct my hypothesis if they are wrong! Amiti�s. Jacques.
AidasCams	Posted - Sep 08 2010 : 02:24:13 AM Hi Jacques! I'm studying a wonderful Minoru Sasaki book about early Kievs right now, so thanks a lot for your great review! Best Regards, Aidas
Jacques M.	Posted - Aug 29 2010 : 2:11:06 PM Stephan, You are right about Kiev/Contax addiction, seeing too that the two last Fed 1 I don't have cannot be reached... The number of the T Sonnar is 2789632 (1,5/5cm) But I found too a later T coated 2/5cm sonnar serial # 2935976. How can it be a Sonnar, not a ZK with such a serial number? The seller told me it was mounted on a camera, but unhappily he doesn't remember which one. And what is the exact history of these Sonnar/ZK lenses in the 1945/1947 years? Surely you can help? Amiti�s; Jacques.
stephanvdz	Posted - Aug 28 2010 : 08:11:14 AM to Jacques... I told you contax could be addictive... too Your O series is very nice (what is the number of the T sonnar ?) Stephan
uwittehh	Posted - Aug 06 2010 : 2:53:55 PM My 1949 Kiev II also has the grooved distance wheel, look here: http://fotos.cconin.de/kameras/kiev2.htm#kiev49 Ulrich http://fotos.cconin.de
Jacques M.	Posted - Aug 06 2010 : 2:11:39 PM Michel, I had noticed that your 1948 Kiev has this groove on the distance wheel. It has also a black rim under the selftimer: it's the only detail coming from the Jena Contaxes. About your translation, it is absolutely perfect! Amiti�s. Jacques.
Michel	Posted - Aug 06 2010 : 09:53:02 AM Jacques, My K48 has the groove on the distance wheel. (BTW when you say "it is a real mess" do you mean "c'est le bordel"??) Amiti�s, Michel.
Jacques M.	Posted - Aug 06 2010 : 08:23:15 AM Hello, Thanks for your confirmation, Ulrich. The rough chrome can be interesting to distinguish 1947 Kievs made from Dresden parts. Very interested by what you say about your 1948 Kiev, Michel. So, it would be a "pure" Dresden one, except for that ring... In 1948, parts coming from anywhere were probably mixed in boxes or so, and were kept in no order. If I understand well: - we have 1947 Kiev, with script inscription, only made with Dresden parts. Alexei Nikitin's one (in the wiki) seems to be one of them. - we have 1947 Kievs, with block inscription, made in Jena besides the Contax Jena on one of the three production lines. They have all the features of the Contax Jena. - we have the same ones after the three production lines were sent to Ukraine, - the last ones, perhaps as soon as 1947 made with what was available. Another special detail is intersting: it concerns the distance wheel. The groove is the rule for all the Contaxes II, including the Jena. But it's not always present on Kievs 1947: Alexei's one has not. And even on later Kievs, it's a real mess. http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/682010_001.JPG Here are my two 1950 Kievs on this picture: the # 503737 on the left (with groove) and the # 506446 without. One can guess that there was a lack of these distance wheel as early as 1947 and that the factory made a special machine tool before receiving the production lines. It would explain these wheels without groove which only belong to Kievs. Well, that's all I know for the moment. For those who are interested, two fascinating articles written by specialists: - Kiev Rangefinders, by Peter Hennig http://www3.telus.net/public/rpnchbck/zconrfKiev.htm - After Dresden: the migration of the Contax to Jena and Kiev (Larry Gubas) http://www.zeisshistorica.org/sample.html Amiti�s. Jacques.
uwittehh	Posted - Aug 05 2010 : 2:12:48 PM Jacques, the chrome was much rougher on my O numbered Contax too. And the engraving of the serial number looked clumsy. My lens had serial number 2683369, so it matches to yours. Ulrich http://fotos.cconin.de
Vlad	Posted - Aug 05 2010 : 12:39:52 PM I know someone who has 1947 Kiev, I can ask him to send me pictures or maybe he can post them himself if he's reading this . Thanks for these Jacques, this makes a great reference material! Cheers, Vlad
Michel	Posted - Aug 05 2010 : 12:36:43 PM Hi Jacques, Here we are. About my KIEV 48 1104 : the ring under the selftimer is black, the rewind button is the same as on your Contax 45, the tripod socket is the same and the arrow on the rewind button has feathers and "extension". Did I answer your questions ? Yes, Kiev 47 seems to be a rarity (maybe some sellers have some of them in a safe, waiting the price to increase ??) And, as you know, there are two variants of Kiev 47 (two different engravings�) Sincerly and amiti�s, Michel.
Jacques M.	Posted - Aug 05 2010 : 11:29:08 AM No comment? Well, two last pictures. I don't want to tire anybody! http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/582010_002.JPG This pictures shows the rewind button of my Desden 1945 Contax II. But it could be the one of any Contax I, II or III. Since 1932, the arrow has this curious extension which should prevent from putting it on the rope of a bow... Funny, no? http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/582010_001.JPG Now, the same button on my 1947 Contax Jena. No extension, that time. And the Contax Jena is the only II or III to lack that part. Hence a possible question: are there such differences on the 1947 Kievs? It should be an indication about their origin... And what about your 1948 Kiev, Michel? Now, I shut up! Amiti�s. Jacques;
Jacques M.	Posted - Aug 03 2010 : 09:31:34 AM Another picture. The ring under the selftimer is black painted on the Contax Jena. It seems it's the only Contax with such a ring: all the other ones have a chromed one, like the 1945 Contax. All my Kievs have chromed rings too. It seems you have a black ring on your 1948 Kiev, Michel? http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/382010_005.JPG Do we find these same differences between the "script" and the "block" 1947 Kievs? THAT is the question! Amiti�s. Jacques.
Jacques M.	Posted - Aug 03 2010 : 09:23:32 AM Hello, Here are some different details between the Contax 1945 and the Contax Jena 1947. To compare with early Kievs... http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/382010_001.JPG http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/382010_002.JPG On these two pictures, the Contax 1945 is on the left, the Jena 1947 on the right (tripod shoe missing on the '45). Some comments, comparisons with early Kievs? Amiti�s. Jacques.
Jacques M.	Posted - Jul 31 2010 : 04:43:34 AM Hello, No "MF" on my lens. Perhaps it is a pacific one? The chrome on the camera is much rougher than on prewar ones. Did you notice the official serial of the lens you speak of, Ulrich? I think mine is the right one, even if it was probably made a year before: not surprising in those times... About the other question, I consider that these cameras are only strong witnesses of our common history. But it's only my opinion... Amiti�s. Jacques.
okynek	Posted - Jul 30 2010 : 07:56:58 AM I can relay to your filling Ulrich. While I agree in some way with Sandor about technical and economical development what triggered by WWII (actually by any war) the human and moral sacrifice is to huge. My grandmother was killed by Nazi in Kiev, my grandfather was killed by KGB year before her. I do not have any KGB cameras in my collection.... Just now I starting to understand why, never think about this before.... Do not fill right to keep instruments what may be responsible to somebody suffering....
Messsucher	Posted - Jul 30 2010 : 06:02:42 AM Hi Jacques, sorry for your hd-crash and congrats for the find from me too! Slightly off: Ulrich: you do not have to feel that way! I am sorry if it is a crude example: it is not a Zyklon B can... Despite the dark side of the era the (technical) developments cannot be forgotten. The medical experiments - yes, inhuman - saved lives already in the Korean war, and we still "profit" from them, even if we are not aware of that... We sent people to the Moon, fly with jetplanes. And BTW, we are happy if we get a nice NKVD-Fed! NKVD? Yeah... See? (Sorry for thread stealing, and being off!) ON
Michel	Posted - Jul 29 2010 : 03:07:15 AM Hi Jacques, Congratulations for these two nice finds. Happy guy� "Putain, la chance!" Sorry Amiti�s. Michel
uwittehh	Posted - Jul 28 2010 : 3:23:06 PM Jacques, congrats to the two Contaxes. They are very nice. I have had one Contax II with serial O 64864. Unfortunately I have sold it away some years ago :-( Please take a closer look to the lens on it, maybe there is a very thin engraved "MF" with another serial number on it. On my lens it was engraved and I have found out that this were really rare lenses for "Marine Flieger" examples (cameras for the german marine in that time). The lens on my camera was only a dozend numbers away from the camera and lens that was on the Bismarck! Sometimes I think it was a bad idea to sell it away but on the other side I don't want to have cameras and lenses that were specially made for german Nazi troups that time... Don't know why, maybe because I am a german guy ;-) Ulrich http://fotos.cconin.de

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