| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Jacques M. |
Posted - Jan 08 2008 : 09:56:47 AM
Hello,
Really glad to meet specialists of FSU cameras! And thanks to Alain who let me know this site!
I am fond of Feds, especially prewar ones. And I have wondered for several years how many Fed S there are, perhaps because I own 5 of them. I was said 2000. But why?
Impossible to answer directly that question, but it seems to be easier by the lens. The 2/50 is the only common lens for S, it cannot be seen on any other cameras (except the B!)and it's almost impossible to find one for sale alone. So number of 2/50 = number of S or about.
I found about 30 2/50 the numbers of which I could get from the buyers (or read on some sites) and only three of them alone. All the numbers were included within c. 21000 and c. 33000.
It's all I can tell reasonably. To believe that 12000 2/50, thus 12000 S were produced would be a nonsense: one knows how the Plans worked. But in my opinion, there were more than 2000 S. Less than 12000, anyway!
Amicalement. Jacques.
PS: I'm always collecting numbers of S+2/50, 4,5/28mm (numbers certainly between 40-47000), 6,3/100mm (between 30-40000) and accessories. So, if you have one, don't hesitate!
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| 29 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Jacques M. |
Posted - Jan 13 2008 : 08:14:20 AM
Hello!
To Vlad: All the serial #s of S are mixed with regular ones. The first true # I know for S is 56041, the last one 181306. So, an early S would be a type c from 1938 (c. 55000 to c. 95000). But it's only an opinion.
And thanks for that fascinating site!
To Aida: I have registered only four rigid macro lenses with #: from 12075 to 15136, mine is 14568. Non numbered seem to be more numerous, and one seller told me that these ones had been made in 1949, another one in 1950-51. Nothing sure!
To Bill: special thanks to you: your site always makes me dream...
Very happy you share my opinion about the 1/1000th shutters passing through WW2 to be mounted on Berdsks and Fed-Zorkis.
To Luis: A fine 2/50 Leica like lens! These lenses seem to be quite rare. I only know three of them.
Mine has a black front written "Summar 1/2 f=5cm N°690233 Ernst Leitz Wetzlar". This lens (stamped 21488/105 at the rear) is no doubt a prewar. As the front # corresponds to a real 1949 Leica lens, I think it was converted that same year.
About the # of 2/50 lenses: there is something strange. In the range 30000-33000, I find six 2/50 and four 6,3/100mm. As if 2/50 lenses had been lacking and an extra lot had been made, using partially the serial numbers given to the tele.
The other extra lenses have their own range which doesn't mix with an other.
Amicalement.
Jacques.
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| Kievuser |
Posted - Jan 13 2008 : 02:11:15 AM
Hi Aidas,
Could you post a link to Mr. Alain Berry's collection? I think I need to sleep less. But not for months, or years.
quote:
Originally posted by AidasCams
We are very happy to have Mr. Alain Berry as an active member in our community! After I saw the complete collection of Viktor Suglob I have had a sleepless week for sure. I can only imagine my feelings after seeing the entire collection of Alain&Claire Berry! Sleepless month, year ... etc.
Happy to meet great collectors,
Aidas
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| Kievuser |
Posted - Jan 13 2008 : 02:05:36 AM
Many thanks!
I see that we have many great collectors on this forum. Mr. Milos has many extremely rare cameras. I saw his items listed on Princelle's book very often. Yes,many of you has a dream collection that an image is very hard to find, not to say the real cameras.
Best Regards.
quote:
Originally posted by mermoz37
About Milos (one of my friends):
He is a medecin doctor in Vienna (radiologist..X Ray)
As an expert in auctions, and very good friend of P. Coeln (Leica shop), he is, since a very long time, at the best place to collect very rares item about soviet's cameras and lenses .
So , professionnaly , it is very easy for him to have a radiography inside cameras and lenses body , to detect fakes and originals.
After what he is a very pleasant man to communicate.
He as a fantastic collection in old lenses ( he is a specialist !)and soviets cameras prototypes.
whithout his courtesy,i cannot tell and show you there, what kind and how much cameras he possess, but you must believe me: it is a dream collection.
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| nightphoto |
Posted - Jan 12 2008 : 9:44:26 PM
Hi Jacques,
I think you are correct about the FED-Zorki 1/1000 speed cameras and that it is likely that these shutters were from KMZ. That is a very good observation and I have not heard it before. So, this would also point to the direction that the 1/1000 speed shutters were available throughout the war and are probably original on the Berdsk engraved cameras that have it.
For your records, I have a FED-1 camera with Berdsk Engraving and 1/1000 speed shutter. The camera serial number is # 179349.
The lens is F 2.0 / 50mm and its serial number is #29484. The lot number of the lens is # 19. This camera looks to be original in every way, as far as I can see.
I can see no reason why production of the FED-1S would have stopped during either the late or early period of the Berdsk engraving and assembly. Still those "special" attributes of the camera would have been needed, war or not, and since the FED-Zorki of just after the war had these shutters, they must have been available. The 50mm F 2.0 lenses show no differences in any way between ones used on earlier FED-1S and the Berdsk engraved FED-1S, so possibly (probably) these lenses were already assembled when FED was moved to Berdsk, and they went with the other parts, bodies, and normal lenses.
I have often wondered about batch numbers on FED lenses of all kinds (since they never seem to make sense in a linear numerical way) and have thought that they may not be batches, but possibly something like an inspector number or production line number. Maybe these lenses were inspected or put on an optical testing machine of some type, and then when they passed as OK, they were stamped with a serial number and the inspector's personal number, or a production line number, so that if the lens was later found to be defective, the blame could be identified. But that is just my idea.
Regards, Bill
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| AidasCams |
Posted - Jan 12 2008 : 3:34:39 PM
We are very happy to have Mr. Alain Berry as an active member in our community! After I saw the complete collection of Viktor Suglob I have had a sleepless week for sure. I can only imagine my feelings after seeing the entire collection of Alain&Claire Berry! Sleepless month, year ... etc.
Happy to meet great collectors,
Aidas |
| Luiz Paracampo |
Posted - Jan 12 2008 : 12:42:25 PM
Kievuser
often saw Milos Mladek's name mentioned. Is he a famous collector of Russian cameras?
_____________________________________________________________
A gift to our forum from Milos.
What could be the TSVVS 2, and a small description.
http://www.ussrphoto.com/Wiki/default.asp?WikiCatID=50&ParentID=49&ContentID=316&Item=TSVVS+2++The+Challenge%21 |
| AidasCams |
Posted - Jan 12 2008 : 12:33:45 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
Hi Aidas,
I confirm: some 3,5/50 rigids don't have any #.
Two sellers I asked for that explained that a non numbered batch was made very early in the fifties or late in the forties.
Hi Jacques,
do you really mean that my Fed Macro lens was manufactured in early fifties? I always thought it's a prewar lens ...
Thanks,
Aidas |
| Luiz Paracampo |
Posted - Jan 12 2008 : 12:32:33 PM
Hey people!
A FED Summar in our collection: http://www.ussrphoto.com/Wiki/default.asp?WikiCatID=28&ParentID=2&ContentID=657&Item=FED+Summar
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| mermoz37 |
Posted - Jan 12 2008 : 12:17:58 PM
About Milos (one of my friends):
He is a medecin doctor in Vienna (radiologist..X Ray)
As an expert in auctions, and very good friend of P. Coeln (Leica shop), he is, since a very long time, at the best place to collect very rares item about soviet's cameras and lenses .
So , professionnaly , it is very easy for him to have a radiography inside cameras and lenses body , to detect fakes and originals.
After what he is a very pleasant man to communicate.
He as a fantastic collection in old lenses ( he is a specialist !)and soviets cameras prototypes.
whithout his courtesy,i cannot tell and show you there, what kind and how much cameras he possess, but you must believe me: it is a dream collection. |
| Jacques M. |
Posted - Jan 12 2008 : 11:30:52 AM
Hi Aidas,
I confirm: some 3,5/50 rigids don't have any #.
Two sellers I asked for that explained that a non numbered batch was made very early in the fifties or late in the forties.
Why not?
As far as I know, it's the only extra lens which can be found without number.
Amicalement. Jacques.
PS: Milos Mladek: collector, Wien, Österreich. (The Princelle!). |
| Kievuser |
Posted - Jan 12 2008 : 09:16:12 AM
Hi,
I often saw Milos Mladek's name mentioned. Is he a famous collector of Russian cameras? Is he a member of this forum? Sorry for my ignorance.
quote:
Originally posted by mermoz37
hi all,
i possess a fed B (just flash synch post-modifyed ) came from Leica shop and certifye authentic by Milos Mladek....
by the way i have also a fed-Kmz
(i sent picture to Viktor, for his book)
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| AidasCams |
Posted - Jan 12 2008 : 09:06:49 AM
it's quite funny, but I can not find serial number on my FED 3.5/50 Macro. My another extra lens FED 6.3/100 comes with serial #33056.
Best Regards,
Aidas |
| Jacques M. |
Posted - Jan 12 2008 : 07:47:56 AM
Hello,
Marvelous!
I was out for some days and couldn't discuss with you. Sorry!
And my English is not so fluent, so I will only do some remarks.
1- It seems evident for me that a Fed S is only a S with its 2/50 lens. And I don't see on eBay lots of S with 3,5/50: only one now exactly. So I thought till now that number of 2/50 = number of S. But of course, no proof!
2- The Princelle notes that S are possible for c and d series only. But some Berdsk-S can be registered. I own one in the 181000 which seems to be true. But no proof once more: it's so easy to take an S in the 150000 and to put the cover of a Berdsk....
3- In my opinion, there were some rare Berdsk S really made (I have traced 6 bodies, including mine). After WW2, the factory had real problems to begin again production, and all the possible spares were certainly used. Why not from S coming from d-series? And more: the 1/1000th shutter of some Fed-Zorki certainly come from S shutters: KMZ didn't make such shutters for their 1...
4- I tried to classify S bodies and 2/50 by pairs. Each time I had seen an S, I asked for the # of the body and the lens. I hoped that the first body(c. 56000)had the first lens(c. 21000) and the last had the last one (c. 33000)and so on inside. What a disappointment when I noticed that ten pairs out of 30 only were "on the line"or not far! All I can tell -but I think it can be important- is that almost all the first half of S bodies (c. 56000 to c. 115000) have lenses from the first half (c. 21000 to c. 27000), mutatis mutandis for the second halves. As if the 2/50 lenses had been made in two batches corresponding to two different periods, for example early 1938 and end 1939, stored, and taken when necessary.
5- About Berdsk (the plain one, not S), I cannot be more precise than Aidas. I have a plain one with # 182912 and I never saw a number exceeding 184000.
6- About 2/50 lenses, the individual serial number is a thing, but what about the batch? In fact, what is a batch for prewar Fed lenses? Of course, it can be a global number common to a certain number of lenses. OK. But I was also said that it was the mark of the workshop which made them. OK. Lately, one of my friends told me that it can be the number of a secret factory: optics and armament depend on military secrets. Kalashnikovs are numbered in such a manner! OK again. What else??
7- If I have a look at my lenses, here are the numbers and corresponding batches:
- 21488: 105. This one is a fake Summar true 2/50 Fed lens.
- 22001: 32,
- 26708: 74-7,
- 27890: 41,
- 29044: 59.
No arithmetic reason in these numbers...
And I don't understand the number given by Aidas. Perhaps only the batch?
I stop now. It's already far too long!
Amicalement. Jacques.
PS: really thanks for your #. If you could give me those of your extra lenses (including the 3,5/50 macro I had forgotten in my first mail), don't hesitate!
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| mermoz37 |
Posted - Jan 09 2008 : 11:23:43 AM
hi all,
i possess a fed B (just flash synch post-modifyed ) came from Leica shop and certifye authentic by Milos Mladek....
by the way i have also a fed-Kmz
(i sent picture to Viktor, for his book) |
| nightphoto |
Posted - Jan 09 2008 : 10:51:31 AM
OK Vlad! ... let's argue forever on this one! Here is an excerpt from the well-known article by Oscar Frike, "The Dzerzhinsky Commune: Birth of the Soviet 35mm Camera Industry" , which Yuriy's site has a link to, and which also addresses your question about FED-B.:
"In 1937, preparations began on the development of the two new FED models. The first was the FED-B, to be introduced in 1938 [52]. It was identical to the standard FED, except for a top-shutter speed of 1/1000 and a separate slow-speed dial on the front of the camera body for the additional speeds between 1/20 and one second. The FED-B would have been a duplicate of the Leica IIIa (G), but the project was dropped and never reached the production stage. Only 40 examples were built experimentally in 1937, after which they were no longer mentioned in the literature.
A second new model, however, did reach the production stage, and was indeed introduced in 1938. This was the FED-S (Cyrillic letter 'C', which corresponds to the English letter 'S'). The sole deviations from the standard FED were an additional top speed of 1/1000 and the faster f2 lens as standard equipment. Innovations were very slow in coming. It is apparent that the FED-S was produced in smaller quantities than the standard model. This model also appeared in Leica guise, with its f2 FED lens engraved instead 'Leitz Summar'. The focusing mount of this 'Summar', however, was quite different from that of the real 50 mm f2 Summar."
Here is the link to the complete article, which is long, but good for complete FED history:
http://www.fedka.com/Useful_info/Commune_by_Fricke/commune_A.htm
Regards, Bill
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| Vlad |
Posted - Jan 08 2008 : 10:42:22 PM
You're probably right, unless there was a batch of FED-S cameras with 1/1000 and the F3.5s.. then they wouldn't be "non-original lens"...  I could argue forever Bill... hehehe
another question - does anyone or anyone you know actually possess FED-B? It's the FED-S with the slow shutter dial? Or this thing is a fake from the beginning? Jean Loup says that around 40 units were made. I added a Feica to the modified section that has such a thing, I can't image someone would adulterate a real FED-B....
Vlad |
| nightphoto |
Posted - Jan 08 2008 : 6:30:38 PM
Well in this case, I believe that since the FED-1S came with the F 2.0 lens and other FED-1 cameras did not, the special qualities of the FED-1S were that it had a speed of 1/1000 sec. and a faster lens, so it could shoot in both lower and higher light levels and stop motion better. This is why the designation "S". So, to my way of thinking it would only be a FED-1S if it had that lens attached to it. If it did not have that lens and had another then it would be a "FED-1S with non-original lens".
Regards, Bill
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| Vlad |
Posted - Jan 08 2008 : 5:29:35 PM
Yea.. but lens could have been switched... I think you classify the camera not the lens, no? |
| nightphoto |
Posted - Jan 08 2008 : 5:26:03 PM
I think to be a FED-1S 'Berdsk', it would also have the 50mm f.2 lens as well as the 1/1000 speed and Berdsk engraving.
Regards, Bill
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| Vlad |
Posted - Jan 08 2008 : 5:05:33 PM
Well the 1/1000 would make it the FED-1S Berdsk though....? Those are the ones Bill was asking about. |
| Kievuser |
Posted - Jan 08 2008 : 4:58:47 PM
Hello Bill,
I have a Fed-1 Berdsk with 1/1000 top speed. I think these are quite rare. They are much less often seen than Fed S. I would guess less than 500 of these were made during the the war.
Kind Regards,
Zhang
quote:
Originally posted by nightphoto
But I am wondering if anyone knows approximately how may FED-1S were made with the Berdsk version of engraving.
So, how many FED-1S Berdsk? Anyone know or care to hazard a guess?
Regards, Bill
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| nightphoto |
Posted - Jan 08 2008 : 3:38:19 PM
But I am wondering if anyone knows approximately how may FED-1S were made with the Berdsk version of engraving.
So, how many FED-1S Berdsk? Anyone know or care to hazard a guess?
Regards, Bill
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| Vlad |
Posted - Jan 08 2008 : 1:59:40 PM
Or are you talking about just Berdsk? What serial # is considered early FED-S? Does anyone know?
Vlad. |
| Vlad |
Posted - Jan 08 2008 : 1:57:28 PM
So if mine is #115.356 - where does that put it? Are the serial #s mixed in with regular FED 1?
Vlad |
| AidasCams |
Posted - Jan 08 2008 : 1:39:51 PM
quote:
Originally posted by cedricfan
IIRC Aidas has one, I think I helped him to get it several years ago?
http://www.cedricfan.sivut.ws/Juhani's%20website%20ORIGINAALIT/
Yea, Juhani helped to get one from Australia. Few years ago PayPal subsumed Lithuania as a"banana" country, so no PayPal transactions were allowed from here. My Berdsk comes with serial number #180805 and seems to be from the late batch. The lowest serial number I know : # 173.654 (was sold on eBay in 2003). The highest one - # 183.892 (I can't remember the source right now).
Regards,
Aidas
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| AidasCams |
Posted - Jan 08 2008 : 1:31:01 PM
Hello Jacques and welcome to the forum!
It's very nice to meet a collector with at least five "Komandirskij" Feds. My Fed-C comes with serial numbers #133561 (body) and #31409 (lens). I have one more 2/50 lens with strange number #34 only ...
Regards,
Aidas |
| cedricfan |
Posted - Jan 08 2008 : 1:28:14 PM
IIRC Aidas has one, I think I helped him to get it several years ago?
http://www.cedricfan.sivut.ws/Juhani's%20website%20ORIGINAALIT/ |
| nightphoto |
Posted - Jan 08 2008 : 12:35:41 PM
Hello Jacques,
Welcome to the forum and good to see another collector from France! I love the FED-S too. I have several and I agree with you that there may be more than 2000 examples as they show up fairly often compared to other cameras known to be made in only 2000 examples. So my guess may be around 50000, but just a wild guess.
What do you think about how many FED-S were made with the "Berdsk" markings? I have one, but I don't see them very often.
Regards, Bill
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| Vlad |
Posted - Jan 08 2008 : 11:22:27 AM
Hi Jacques!
Welcome to the site! Always great to have fellow collectors join! Go through previous forum posts when time allows, you will find a wealth of information.
I just got my FED-S from repair and CLA at Yuri B of Fedka - what a great job they did with a camera! It feels like I'm handling a new FED .. the serial # of is 115356 and 2/50 lens is 27282 batch 78.
Best regards,
Vlad |
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