| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| uwittehh |
Posted - Mar 30 2008 : 3:33:00 PM
Hello,
I just want to show the box of my FED-Zorki. It's yellow, bright yellow! :-) I think to have the box with the same number of the camera is a bit rare. My FED-Zorki dates from 1948.
An odd thing was that came with papers and the ERC of another FED-Zorki! One that has had the 1,5/50 ZK lens originally and that has the highest numer I have ever seen. Princelle reports that about 5500 FED-Zorkis have been built, the passport that I got with mine (serial 2913) has the number 5477.
Just look at the pics, maybe somebody can translate the text? Interesting is also that one paper describes it as "Zorki" the other as "FED".
Here is my box with the 2 not matching (to mine) papers:
And here are the papers in detail, first the one which describes it as Zorki, looking like the one somebody has posted for an early Kiev:
And here the one that names it FED:
Both papers have the same dates.
Ulrich
http://fotos.cconin.de |
| 27 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| James McGee |
Posted - Apr 01 2008 : 11:32:45 AM
Hi Everyone,
Thanks to Aidas, and Alain for those great photo's from their collections.
It seems I'm not alone in having a Fed-Zorki with the non standard rangefinder housing.
Whilst I appreciate what Guido says and aknowledge his experience in investigating fakes I still think that my Fed-Zorki 2110 is not a fake.
After looking at the photo's that Aidas posted I think that his Fed-Zorki 2767 is also probably not a fake. After all Aidas has had the rest of the camera authenticated so why should the rangefinder housing alone be faked?.
I whole heartedly agree with Bill's comments, we all know from our own experiences that some of the cameras we collect can come with various changes, especially during the early problematic days of production. We can easily see this with the Fed-1A, but we wouldn't call it a fake if it had a non standard covering, or had an accessory shoe fitted.
Many of the cameras that we collect are 60 and seventy years old, and many mysteries still remain about their production, especially the early days of a cameras life, but this is all part of what makes our hobby so interesting.
It's also understandable that some cameras will have been repaired or modified during their lifetime.
I respect what Guido says and with that in mind I will closely examine my Fed-Zorki 2110 in detail when I return home at the end of this month.
Thanks to everyone for their contributions, reading these forums is better than reading a good thriller.
Regards, Jim |
| nightphoto |
Posted - Apr 01 2008 : 11:07:13 AM
Aidas,
Maybe the top plate of #02767 does not have faked engraving, but the engraving is just filled in with paint. There is at least one dealer (DVDTech) and probably other dealers that do this to many cameras, probably because they think it improves the look when photographed.
Hello Guido,
I believe that in the beginnings of a wartime-interrupted resumption of factory activities and new production lines based on the FED, it is possible that some old FED parts that were in storage or on hand might be used from time to time when regular parts ran out or the next batch of them not quite finished yet. So, maybe one, or maybe ten old top plates were used to finish up a batch of cameras or the last of a weeks production. This would be more likely towards beginnings of the production (low serial numbers) before the factory was really running smoothly. Remember, we are only talking about maybe a six months or so, after which we don't see much variation... a small amount of time to get production running perfectly (and for old boxes of parts to run out). This was a common thing as can be seen with early Kiev production using some German parts.
It would seem that the most faked models would be the 1949 FED-Zorki. Have you seen many of them? I think that since FED-Zorki is rare in itself, that fakes would be all over the place in serial numbers as forgers do not want to repeat any numbers twice. Also, it occurs to me that when we find two examples with the same serial number, one will be fake, and then we can learn alot.
Thanks for your good work on your web site about fakes, but I can't read it (my fault for having no German and not taking the time to put it through a google translation yet ... but I will soon!).
Dear Zoom,
Thank you for your information about FS-2 camera bodies coming from the state storehouses and telling that KMZ did not get equipment from FED at the beginning, but possibly details and/or documents ... likely but no data. Your information is always so helpful.
Regards, Bill
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| Zoom |
Posted - Apr 01 2008 : 10:00:07 AM
quote:
Originally posted by nightphoto
KMZ was making the FS-2 Foto-Sniper and even then possibly using FED cameras...
From a state storehouses... ;)
quote:
Originally posted by nightphoto
When KMZ started to make the FED-Zorki in 1948, it was with help of tooling coming from FED...
Nope. Nothing from an equipment.
May be a details or/and documents... It is very likely, but no data.
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| Guido |
Posted - Apr 01 2008 : 08:16:36 AM
Hello Jacques
Yes, I're right, I had remarked this some time ago. There are some other differences too between this variants and the FED-Zorki.
Thank you.
Best wishes - Guido |
| Jacques M. |
Posted - Apr 01 2008 : 07:17:46 AM
Hi Guido,
Jim's #2110 and Aidas's #2767 have top plates which are exactly the same as some of my Fed 1c and d, from #67723 to #157694.
Just to discuss...
Amitiés. Jacques. |
| Guido |
Posted - Apr 01 2008 : 04:05:57 AM
Hello Bill
Thank you very much for your differentiated point of view. It's a possiblity that there where variants with other top plates, but don't you think that there would be series of such variants and not only single copies? I never seen following numbers on cameras I would consider as fakes. Well the amount of seen FED-Zorki's may be too low for say anything on this.
The fact that there are much fakes in low and high s/n may also explicated with the habit of collectors to look after very rare items with small numbers. And in the high numbers there are the rare 1949 models.
But maybe I'm wrong with my opinion what a fake is and what not. I will keep this in mind and will try to find more and harder facts to compair such cameras.
Best wishes - Guido |
| Jacques M. |
Posted - Apr 01 2008 : 03:53:45 AM
Hello,
Thanks, Bill.
You told much better than me what I wanted to say in the topic about Fed-Zorki fakes.
Amitiés. Jacques. |
| AidasCams |
Posted - Apr 01 2008 : 02:00:14 AM
Hello friends,
I do possess a FED-ZORKI camera #02767 with different form of the finder housing (like Jim's #02110 ...) Although the body is authentic (confirmed by authoritative experts), I consider top plate to be faked indeed. My FED-ZORKI #02593 is authentic one (but I have some doubts about shutter knob ... ) The 3rd camera is Zorki-1a #06768 and it's totally authentic, with I-22 Zorki lens #6130.
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/early_zorki2.jpg
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| nightphoto |
Posted - Mar 31 2008 : 9:17:35 PM
I would like to say that I think it is worth considering the history of both KMZ and FED during and after World War II before coming to conclusions about about whether there are variations in FED-Zorki cameras from 1948, and so, exact conclusions as to whether a particular FED-Zorki is a fake or authentic (from the factory in 1948).
I think Jim's post about where he bought his camera is a good indication that there may be several variations in 1948 FED-Zorki cameras, including the shapes of the top plates, and possibly some other parts used, such as the vulcanite. Obviously, a number of different lenses were used as the "normal lens".
Please remember the history of both the FED and KMZ. FED was dismantled and brought to Berdsk where some cameras were probably assembled, and then, just after the war, brought back to Kharkov where the factory had to be completely rebuilt. KMZ was making the FS-2 Foto-Sniper and even then possibly using FED cameras, or assembling FED cameras, from parts made at and from FED, to use on these FS-2 units because FED was basically non-existent as a camera factory at this time and so could not do it themselves.
When KMZ started to make the FED-Zorki in 1948, it was with help of tooling coming from FED, and probably technical assistance from FED employees, workers, or designers, as well. Optical lens blocks, lens parts, and elements were coming in from Germany (to make the BK and ZK lenses) and so I suspect things were not as simple and straight forward in the production, assembly, and consistency of parts used as we collectors would like to have them be.
In other words, I think that when deciding which FED-Zorki cameras are fake or authentic we will have to be more open-minded than to think that if a top plate is different then the camera is fake ... maybe it could be that an older FED top plate, left over from the wartime production of FS-2 or a FED part that ended up at KMZ, was used for some reason. Even from seeing the early yellow FED-Zorki box it can be seen that, as Yuri says, these cameras were considered FEDs, just made in a different factory.
I have noticed the different top plates on some FED-Zorki cameras that I did not think of as fake when looking at other details of the interiors, engraving, etc. So, maybe they are fakes, but maybe we should not be so quick to say it unless we know for sure that there were not different top plates and vulcanites used during early production.
And finally, it seems that the large proportion of fakes compared to authentic examples, on Guido's list, with a larger proportion of fakes in the low serial numbers and much smaller proportion in the high serial numbers, also points to greater inconsistency during early production than later on, as things became more settled at the factory. Maybe they just have different parts rather than are fakes. Of course there are fakes, but is it reasonable to think that all forgers of these cameras would pick the first half of the serial number range to write on a fake FED-Zorki? It might be a good idea to check the fakes to see if the different top plates on them are actually pre-war FED top plates.
Regards, Bill
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| uwittehh |
Posted - Mar 31 2008 : 3:11:24 PM
Well, that's a very interesting discussion here :-) And I see that many of us own one or more FED-Zorkis.
Alain, your early FED is really nice, specially the name plate on the back. I have never seen such a FED before.
Well, mine is not a fake, despite it has a serial number starting with 2xxx. I have disassembled it and all looks quite like FED inside. And btw. it has the 1/1000 of a second. I put the number into the database.
Ulrich
http://fotos.cconin.de |
| Guido |
Posted - Mar 31 2008 : 2:33:04 PM
Hello Jim
It would be great if we could find out more on your camera. There are very different fakes around, made by different more or less capable people. So let's see what details we will find by a closer look.
Best wishes - Guido |
| James McGee |
Posted - Mar 31 2008 : 1:58:32 PM
Hi Guido,
I understand and agree that all your comments make good sense, and you are obviously very knowledgable about such fakes.
If I bought this camera under different circumstances, say via an internet auction, or a back street bazaar in Moscow, I would also think it a fake.
It's only the circumstances in which I bought the camera which make me think it must be genuine, there is absolutely no motive in selling a fake in Uzbekistan for the same price as any other Fed or Zorki, especially eight years ago.
If the camera did indeed turn out to be a fake I would not be dissapointed. I have in any case two other Fed-Zorki's, and a fake would be an interesting addition to my collection. In a way I would be quite happy to have an additional variant to my collection.
I noticed that one of the Fed-Zorki's in Alain's beautifully displayed collection has an incorrect shutter release button, but again I assume that this is explainable.
As you point out, some fakes can be as intersting as the originals, and should 2110 be a fake I will still treasure it as much as the others.
So thanks for your comments, I will bear them in mind and have a much closer look at camera 2110 when I go home. I'm sure that we will solve the riddle, but hey isn't this forum great in that we can learn so much from each other!
Best wishes, and regards, Jim |
| Guido |
Posted - Mar 31 2008 : 1:23:40 PM
quote:
Originally posted by James McGee
Hello Guido,
Of course I can't say for sure that any of my cameras are not fake, but I very much doubt that this Fed-Zorki is a fake.
Hello Jim
Thank you for you informations. Well maybe you are right, maybe not. I have two fakes here, one of them with such a top plate as yours, used on FED's and later Zorki's. And I'm pretty shure that all the FED-Zorki had the same design of the top plate.
I have no idea how this camera has come to that family in Uzbekistan and if you have buyed a price like for a later standard Zorki, there will be absolutly no problem if the camera is original or not! A fake may sometimes be even more valuable than the original, because there are not so many and they are made by hand in very small quantities. A fake is only "bad" if someone try to make more money with it.
If you have a passport for just this s/n it's fine, but who can say if the engraving was not made after this passport?
For the shutter knob and other such details: Yes, it's absolutly possible that someone had repaired the camera in the past, for that such changes are not a strong sign of anything. But to change a top plate it's just an other thing I think.
So, don't care too much if I call it a fake or whatever, it's a nice camera and all what I'm saying about don't change that. No problem after all.
Best wishes - Guido
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| James McGee |
Posted - Mar 31 2008 : 12:53:03 PM
Hello Guido,
Of course I can't say for sure that any of my cameras are not fake, but I very much doubt that this Fed-Zorki is a fake.
The reason that I say this is that I have never bought a camera from a dealer or professional seller. This camera, (2110) I bought around eight years ago from a Russian family in Uzbekistan they were selling most of their houshold belongings and moving back to Russia, as many other Russian people were doing at that time.
In fact I think I am probably correct in saying that I have the passport for this camera, but will need to check when I return to England at the end of April.
I know that the shutter release is not original, and I knew this when I bought the camera, but I see no proplem in people modifying or updating a camera from time to time, especially if it improves usability, it happens.
In this case I assume that the shutter release button was changed so that a cable release or mechanical self timer could be used.
Other factors why I think this camera is not a fake are that there would be no market for fakes in Uzbekistan, especially in Fergana which is where I bought this camera.
The family selling the camera were only asking the same price as any normal Fed-1, or Zorki-1, which was in fact less than they would have been asking for a Zorki-4 or Fed-4. And I very much doubt that the forgers had got around to faking Fed-Zorki's at that time, (eight years ago).
As I said I'm almost certain that this is the camera for which I have the passport, and I doubt that a fake would come complete with passport.
Regards,
Jim
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| mermoz37 |
Posted - Mar 31 2008 : 12:12:54 PM
and ....
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/IMG_4102.jpg
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| Zoom |
Posted - Mar 31 2008 : 12:06:23 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Guido Studer
In my list I can find 12 FED-Zorki with 02xxx numbers, but only two of them I could identify as fakes.
Probably, I am out of luck... :( |
| mermoz37 |
Posted - Mar 31 2008 : 12:05:36 PM
just for infos ...
i possess 3 differents whith matching 1948 zk lenses..
one whith 1.5 /50 rigid, one whith Moscow collapsible and one whith bad aluminium collapsible 2/50 mm
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/fed 48. 1jpg.jpg
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/fed 48.jpg
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| Guido |
Posted - Mar 31 2008 : 11:51:48 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Zoom
quote:
Originally posted by Guido Studer
One of your FED-Zorki's seems to be a fake to me, the one with the number 2110.
Yes.
Btw, all 02xxx cameras, which I saw, were fakes...
Hello Zoom
In my list I can find 12 FED-Zorki with 02xxx numbers, but only two of them I could identify as fakes. In the range 0(0)xxx it's worth, two fakes of three, also in the range 01xxx, 2 of 3. In the range 05xxx I have two fakes of four in my list. No fakes at all in the range 03xxx (of 5) and 04xxx (of 9). But keep in mind that the older numbers on my list collected in 2006 or so are not very shure about fake or not, because I look closer since end of 2007 ...
Best wishes - Guido
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| Zoom |
Posted - Mar 31 2008 : 11:39:35 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Guido Studer
One of your FED-Zorki's seems to be a fake to me, the one with the number 2110.
Yes.
Btw, all 02xxx cameras, which I saw, were fakes...
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| Guido |
Posted - Mar 31 2008 : 11:29:27 AM
quote:
Originally posted by James McGee
This is interesting about these Fed - Zorkies. In ten years of searching I have found only three of these cameras, (and of course I bought them all).
Hello Jim
One of your FED-Zorki's seems to be a fake to me, the one with the number 2110. The form of the finder housing is not the same as on other FED-Zorki, also the "4" in "1948" looks a little different of the others. The shutter release knob may also not be original.
Best wishes - Guido
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| Zoom |
Posted - Mar 31 2008 : 10:44:06 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Guido Studer
The 04940 from 1949 is the lowest one I ever seen...
#04822 made in 21.02.1949.
Named as "FED" in the Passport.
Lens: #1332
The text from it manual is there:
http://www.zenitcamera.com/mans/zorki-1/fed.html |
| Jacques M. |
Posted - Mar 31 2008 : 04:12:32 AM
Hello,
All that is most interesting. Though we know it was made in 1948-49, we don't know much about this camera. And the period -just post war- is still mysterious...
I put the number of my Fed-Zorki in the Wiki. Perhaps it would be fine to add in the list if the shutter goes to the 1/500th or the 1/1000th. Probably the 1/1000th ones come all from prewar NKVD Fed S. It would be interesting to have an idea of the number of these shutters.
And by the way, what about the Fed-KMZ, the pre Fed-Zorki?
What a fascinating period!
Amitiés. Jacques. |
| James McGee |
Posted - Mar 31 2008 : 03:08:24 AM
Hello again,
I have remembered a couple of other small details about the Fed-Zorki passport that I have. Firstly, if I remember correctly it is for one of my two 1948 cameras. Secondly the camera illustration on the passport shows a camera fitted with a standard 3.5/50mm collapsable lens.
By the way, I should explain, if anyone was wandering how is it that I can post a photo of my three Fed-Zorki cameras, and not a photo of the Fed- Zorki passport!!!
The reason is that I had previously posted the photo of these cameras when I was last home in England, (see topic "FS-2 lens").
Regards, and best wishes to all, Jim.
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| James McGee |
Posted - Mar 31 2008 : 02:37:12 AM
Hi Guys,
This is interesting about these Fed - Zorkies. In ten years of searching I have found only three of these cameras, (and of course I bought them all).
I also have the original passport for one of them, though at the moment I can't remember which one! (I am not at home right now,so can't check).
But what I do remember is that the Fed-Zorki passport that I have is exactly the same as the one Ulrich has except that mine says Fed, not Zorki.
I'm a little frustrated because It's going to be another three or four weeks before I go back to the UK, but when I do I will check the Fed-Zorki passport and post a photo.
Regards,
Jim
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/Fed-Zorkis.jpg
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| fedka |
Posted - Mar 30 2008 : 10:44:18 PM
These are very interesting papers. Even though we all know about FED-Zorki being a transitional camera, this makes one think.
For example, why Zorki? Why not FED made by two factories? The smaller, QC paper shows that the camera name was FED, and at the bottom, Zorki printed as a town name, "Zorki, Moscow region, PO Box 2" [PO Box here denotes a military factory].
When Zenit went into production by Vileika (BelOMO), it was still a Zenit, the same model was made by two factories (KMZ and Vileika), and we know the same was true for soem Smenas and some lenses.
So it looks like the original idea was to make FED by another factory. You can clearly see in on the box as well - the label shows FED with a KMZ logo, almost like a Zenit-E with a Vileka logo.
The problem here could be political and ego-based. KMZ was a large military plant, near Moscow, Russia, which is far superior to the Kharkov, Ukraine-based FED which, before the war had civilian roots.
So KMZ had to distinguish itself from FED somehow, and they came up with the Zorki name.
Boxes and papers are great documents, since they are seldom, if ever, forged, and therefore can be trusted.
Yuri
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| Guido |
Posted - Mar 30 2008 : 6:12:21 PM
Hello Bill
Thank you for your s/n ... I'm collecting them of all Zorki's I see.
The 04940 from 1949 is the lowest one I ever seen, the highest one for 1948 I found is 04797.
Best wishes - Guido
By the way: I'm looking for *all* s/n of Zorki 3 and 3M, so if anyone have some to spend, please write me a mail or put it in the Zori 3 topic. Thank you in advance. |
| nightphoto |
Posted - Mar 30 2008 : 5:47:02 PM
Hello Ulrich,
Thanks for these photos. I have never seen the early FED-Zorki box before, or the passport papers from 1949. That is a high number (No.05447) for FED-Zorki from 1949. Maybe one of the last.
I have a FED-Zorki (No.04163) from 1948 and also a FED-Zorki (No.04940) from 1949.
Also I have a Zorki (not FED-Zorki) with serial number No. 05784 ... so only 307 camera beyond your passport number No.05477.
So even from these few camera numbers and your passport we can see that there were at least 507 FED-Zorki cameras made, between Jan.1, 1949 and March 14, 1949.
More numbers from 1948 and 1949 will probably give an even better idea of the total production.
Regards, Bill
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