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Trazin
39 Posts |
 Posted - May 03 2015 : 5:23:38 PM
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Hello everyone !
I bought recently a soviet ZK 85 mm, but after having a look on sovietcam dot com I have some doubts concerning the authenticity of the item...
It's really weird. The optical bloc seems ok (with serial number), but the digits on the rings are not drawn as it should be (3 and 4).
Is this a real ZK? What do you think?
Help ! |
Edited by - Trazin on Jun 19 2015 11:39:46 AM |
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2015 : 02:31:07 AM
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Hi Trazin
I would say that it is fake. It seems to me that Zeiss numbers are also fake engravings. They should be deeply stamped. There are some other cosmetic differences from early Jupiter and Zk lenses.
altix |
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Trazin
39 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2015 : 06:01:07 AM
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Thank you for your reply ! I think the same, so I will give it back to the seller.
I also saw other ZK and BK there. They seem genuine but I'm still not sure. Here are some pictures. What do you think about it?
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Jacques M.
France
2599 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2015 : 06:56:46 AM
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Hi Trazin,
For the Jup 9, I share Altix's opinion, alas...
About the other lenses you show, the Jup 12 should be genuine. But it would be interesting to know if it has a Zeiss number too...
I don't know for the Jup 3. Other photos would be necessary.
Amitiés. Jacques. |
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2015 : 08:05:10 AM
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The BK barrel looks like genuine but I would say that both lenses are fakes. BK should not have Soviet lenses as this BK has. And the aperture ring of ZK looks like nothing to do with the Zeiss.But as Jacques mentioned, more pictures are needed. It seems that fake makers became more and more professional.
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Edited by - altix on May 04 2015 08:06:29 AM |
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Trazin
39 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2015 : 08:12:43 AM
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Hi Jacques!
I already get rid of the J-9.
I also think the J-12 is genuine. I would check the Zeiss number but I don't know how to open it... The seller wants 350 euros for it, do you think it's a good price?
For the J-3 there is no Zeiss number inside, just a hand drawn number (the seller told me not every ZK has it, I don't know if it's true). His shape is really strange, it looks like a PT1610 with a large ring. However the PT1610 was produced only in 1948 according to sovietcams dot com. Which picture would you need to be more precise?
Amitiés, Cyril |
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Trazin
39 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2015 : 08:17:30 AM
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Hi Altix,
You're right. The lens look soviet... Maybe it's a real ZK on wich they put soviet lens ? Maybe because the original lens were in bad condition? If both are fake, it's really well done... |
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2015 : 08:31:08 AM
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Dear Trazin
Zeiss number on BK you can see without dismantling it. Some lenses can come without the number but the lens block on BK you've shown is not original. |
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Trazin
39 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2015 : 08:58:19 AM
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Dear Altix,
Thanks for information! I had some doubts.. you gave me confirmation. And what do you think about the J-3? |
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2015 : 09:26:50 AM
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| more pictures are needed, from 4 sides at least. Jacques can judge better than I but I think it is also fake. |
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Trazin
39 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2015 : 09:51:42 AM
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| I'm really impressed by the skills of the guy who made these fakes ... the mistakes are really hard to detect. |
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2015 : 10:19:46 AM
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If the question of price 350 Euro or more why not to make double profit by mixing a genuine lens with the Jupiter. Two lenses would show some features of original and on every arguments against the originality there would be counterargument. I mean that the barrel of BK could be original. And don't be fooled by the beauty ring  . |
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Jacques M.
France
2599 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2015 : 11:02:54 AM
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Concerning the BK and Jup 12, there was certainly a great mess at KMZ's in the 1950-52 years...
I own three of these Jup 12, from the years 1951 and 52. They are all different, either in diameter of the front aluminium barrel, or in the visible inside, near the beauty ring. Two of them have a thread for a 40,5mm filter,but not at the same place (!), two again have a (correct) Zeiss number....
The BK you show looks like one of my 1951 Jup 12, at least about the aluminium barrel, which is exactly the same. Idem for the inside with the design between the diaph range and the glass. My 5101884 belongs to a series of 2000 Biogons which were made only in LTM mount by Zeiss. So, if this BK has a Zeiss number around (2)84xxxx, it should be genuine...
But you will be sure only when the lens is in your hand...!
Amitiés. Jacques. |
Edited by - Jacques M. on May 04 2015 11:07:30 AM |
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2015 : 11:12:13 AM
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dear Jacques,
The coating tells that it is neither Zeiss nor early KMZ optical block. But the barrel as you said most probably is authentic. As for myself I would not buy this lens.
best regards,
altix
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Edited by - altix on May 04 2015 11:14:29 AM |
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Jacques M.
France
2599 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2015 : 11:26:35 AM
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You are right, Altix.
There is some uncertainty about the coating which is really very blue.
I had not looked at it correctly.
But I would be curious to know if the rear triplet has Zeiss origins.
These lenses were such a "meccano"...
Jacques. |
Edited by - Jacques M. on May 04 2015 11:29:43 AM |
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2015 : 12:22:26 PM
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| Very interesting metaphor, Jacques! But "meccano" was designed to make children a creative constructors. I would say it is more like "lego": Independent of what blocks you use from the constructor kit at the end you get Jupiter 12 |
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Trazin
39 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2015 : 12:40:46 PM
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Unfortunatly I didn't took picture from the rear...
That's all:
On the the ZK-50 optical block there are the same kind of inscription as those you can see on the ZK-135's block.
[url=http://postimg.org/image/5l3nj3jd5/full/] [/url]
[url=http://postimg.org/image/7kouo932h/full/] [/url]
[url=http://postimg.org/image/bpzra60uh/full/] [/url]
[url=http://postimg.org/image/3lrn5fefd/full/] [/url]
[url=http://postimg.org/image/q6ifb00y1/full/] [/url]
[url=http://postimg.org/image/gahcbcv61/full/] [/url]
[url=http://postimg.org/image/ij046frnt/full/] [/url]
[url=http://postimg.org/image/mqzhsxih5/full/] [/url]
[url=http://postimg.org/image/tq8yejt1l/full/] [/url]
[url=http://postimg.org/image/odk40f555/full/] [/url]
[url=http://postimg.org/image/wn0ksko95/full/] [/url]
[url=http://postimg.org/image/eqglqpc5l/full/] [/url]
[url=http://postimg.org/image/7xku86aq1/full/] [/url]
[url=http://postimg.org/image/wydfrlfbd/full/] [/url]
[url=http://postimg.org/image/fca60jwll/full/] [/url]
[url=http://postimage.org/index.php?lang=french]hébergement gratuit d'images[/url] |
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2015 : 12:44:46 PM
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Dear Trazin. Take ZK 135 and run away  . No doubt it is genuine. |
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
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Trazin
39 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2015 : 1:37:51 PM
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Wow ! Obviously you are right, the same guy (or girl) held both objectives in his hands some 67 years ago, amazing !
There is the same kind of scrached numbers on the J-3's optical block. So maybe it's also genuine ?! |
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Jacques M.
France
2599 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2015 : 4:09:15 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Trazin
Wow ! Obviously you are right, the same guy (or girl) held both objectives in his hands some 67 years ago, amazing !
There is the same kind of scrached numbers on the J-3's optical block. So maybe it's also genuine ?!
You know, there is a sort of bet each time I buy one of these lenses: genuine or fake? Partly or completely? If partly, it corresponds to which possible history? and so on...
So, good luck if you join the fans of these lenses!
Jacques. |
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2015 : 4:20:14 PM
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Concerning J3 I tend to call it fake. I do not see any details that can convince me that this is Zorki lens with suitable number. It looks like the original but the devil is always in details. The most disgusting in this model are these Zeiss "ears". It seems that it is the knurled ring from late J3 with cuted away edges to bring the form of ears. The original ears in this serial number span were chrome plated and really well made. Engravings on this ring look like original, but "4" is of different form. There are also other details like shape of some numbers, size of bolts, etc.
I would also expect pressed Zeiss number on the lens block. Of course 1950 was a turbulent year for KMZ lenses. There could be many variations of design. But still I do not believe that it is original lens. It was very stupid for KMZ to make a knurled ring and then to cut it in order to produce ears. Very illogical and costly experiment with the design.
From all lenses you showed us I would buy only ZK 135. It is the only jewel there that is put to sell the rest of this folklore stuff. |
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Dmitry
Svetopisez
Russia
11 Posts |
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Dmitry
Svetopisez
Russia
11 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2015 : 5:34:36 PM
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| As for the J3 - I completely agree with altix: "The most disgusting in this model are these Zeiss "ears". It seems that it is the knurled ring from late J3 with cuted away edges to bring the form of ears. The original ears in this serial number span were chrome plated and really well made." It is absolutely obvious for me that the "ears" are made from the late J3 because the signs of the cutter are clearly seen on the ring! |
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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
2000 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - May 04 2015 : 9:01:12 PM
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In my modest opinio these are the best fakes I saw...
Regards
LP
Although not authentic I regard these lenses as great collective pieces |
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Trazin
39 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2015 : 12:50:05 AM
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Hi everyone!
Thanks for all these details! It's impressing how far they can go to make their fakes look realistic ...
I saw these items before they appeared on avito. Furthermore the seller told me he would never put it on avito as they are too valuable. He proposed me 20 000 rubles (340 euros) for each. And he seems to have a lot of other ... Fakes ... If I meet him again I would send you some pics ;)
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Trazin
39 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2015 : 02:54:07 AM
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By the way, from the same seller :
[url=http://postimg.org/image/egt7r1287/full/] [/url]
For me, it looks genuine...
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Edited by - Trazin on May 06 2015 03:43:09 AM |
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Jacques M.
France
2599 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2015 : 05:09:10 AM
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It would be difficult to fake a collapsible mount.
KMZ used Zeiss's ones and did not produce such bodies by themselves, as far as I know.
Hope you won't propose all the lenses which are on the net...
Jacques. |
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Trazin
39 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2015 : 05:18:05 AM
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Dear Jacques,
Of course I won't ;) ! I was just confused by this seller... he has a lot of stuff among which there are lots of fakes and some good things aswell. Many of these items are not on the net (two of them just came out on the web yesterday after I saw them ;) ). |
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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
2000 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - May 05 2015 : 11:55:08 AM
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This Sonnar is authentic and was a special series requested to equip Leica bodies during the war.
the remaining lenses were used on some first FED-Zorki
LP |
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Jacques M.
France
2599 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2015 : 4:03:50 PM
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Yes, I own one of these remaining lenses.
A Sonnar with M marking, and two different Zeiss numbers, so remounted. But by whom...
It works perfectly on my Fed S.
Jacques. |
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Ulrich W.
uwittehh
Germany
834 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - May 07 2015 : 2:45:29 PM
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I am not sure that the J3 is a fake. I own a J3 from 1951 that has ears like the one shown here and an internal stamped in number but it is named Jupiter 3. So who would fake such a lens? And when I compare the ears to a ring on a normal J3 I don't belive that it is cut out (even if it looks so). The ears are much thicker than the ring.
See here:
Ulrich
http://fotos.cconin.de |
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - May 07 2015 : 3:42:59 PM
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Dear Ulrich,
everything could be. As I wrote that 1950 was a turbulent year for KMZ and one can spot dozens of design variations. I used as a reference a lens that is only few numbers from the lens what was shown.
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/752015_1.JPG
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/752015_2.JPG
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/752015_3.JPG
The ears are of different form and are chrome plated. There are differences in engravings and the stopper bolt is on other position.
Now I see that your Jupiter 3 looks the same as ZK from 1950. Still the absence of Zeiss number on ZK is confusing. But it is possible to have ZK without Zeiss number and Jupiter with Zeiss glass. So there is still uncertainty about the lens but now I am not so sure that it is fake. Thank you.
with best regards
altix
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - May 07 2015 : 4:05:13 PM
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| Probably when the original Zeiss ears were all used, KMZ used other available knurled rings brought from Zeiss factory. KMZ workers modified the rings to make Zeiss-look design. It is not a very elegant method but is ok when you have tons of spare parts that you can use in this way. |
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Ulrich W.
uwittehh
Germany
834 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - May 07 2015 : 4:43:21 PM
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Yes, that could be possible. Or maybe later in the years parts were used by KMZ that were not used by Zeiss before because they do not fit the Zeiss standards and that were not thrown away in the war confusion. We will never know it... ;-)
Ulrich
http://fotos.cconin.de |
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Jacques M.
France
2599 Posts |
Posted - May 08 2015 : 05:30:35 AM
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I think too that we must be cautious: we don't know in which order KMZ used all the parts which came from Germany...
Another lens for which I would like your opinion.
It's a 1951 jup 3, internal barrel made of brass, a very beautiful green coating on the first glass (impossible to shoot correctly). The usual lilac/blue tints are inside, with yellow. An astonishing rainbow!
I had seen only one other lens like this one, but it was in M42 mount, if I remember.
No ears and no possibility to unscrew to check if there is a Zeiss number.
I cannot "decide" if it is a Zeiss or KMZ lens...
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/852015_DSCF2153.JPG
Amitiés. Jacques.
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - May 08 2015 : 07:31:36 AM
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| Oh, congratulations Jacques! It seems that you have multicoated lens from 1951 Original German patent 1934 says in indirect way about possible multicoating of lenses. Who knows it could be that your Jupiter was some trial of Zeiss in multicoating procedure. But it could be that somebody coated the lenses recently. Who knows... |
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Jacques M.
France
2599 Posts |
Posted - May 08 2015 : 08:19:37 AM
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I have owned this lens since years.
But I have never seen such a green coating on another lens (except the Jup in another mount). It looks exactly like the green of fujifilms!
I will try this lens on a body. I have to, now....
Jacques. |
Edited by - Jacques M. on May 08 2015 10:41:02 AM |
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Trazin
39 Posts |
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Martti Muda
fotomuda
Estonia
155 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - May 11 2015 : 04:35:09 AM
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| My friend has also jupiter-3 with ears! |
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Pierre Tizien
Moxies
France
183 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - May 13 2015 : 04:38:30 AM
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Faking ZK's is new sport
Nice green coating Jacques, I also never seen such one
I'm not a ZK lover, since their price a going wild even in ex-soviet republics, I just have a Jupiter-3 kiev mount with ears and brass barrel, which perform very well! |
Edited by - Moxies on May 13 2015 04:53:40 AM |
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Trazin
39 Posts |
Posted - Jun 17 2015 : 03:46:21 AM
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Hello Everyone !
Jacques, Did you try your lens? Does it perform well?
I think I have something pretty similar with a kind of multicoating. Perhaps they made a whole series of multicoated jupiter during the 50's?!
[url=http://postimg.org/image/93jz25t3b/full/] [/url]
[url=http://postimg.org/image/hkjhd2xs7/full/] [/url]
I bought it mostly because of the serial number :).
Cyril.
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Jacques M.
France
2599 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2015 : 03:33:42 AM
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Hi Cyril!
No, I have not yet tried my "green" Jup 3: too much material, and I have no numerics to try the lenses. Perhaps it will be my next purchase.
As for your Jup 11, I Wonder if you don't have an ungluing of a glass Inside. The irisation on the last photo remembers me one of my postwar Sonnars. Hope I am wrong and it is only the reflexion of the trees!
Amitiés. Jacques. |
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Trazin
39 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2015 : 04:55:15 AM
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Jacques,
Yes,unfortunately one of the glass is a bit unglued in the corner. Do you think it was made using post war Zeiss lens ? It would be really strange. Maybe it was an experimental part ?
To make such a fake would be a nonsense as it was not so expensive ... (Twice the price of a jupititer 11 in average condition).
Amitiés, Cyril |
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Jacques M.
France
2599 Posts |
Posted - Jun 19 2015 : 05:47:07 AM
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Hi Cyril,
It's rather the Zeiss Oberkochen lenses (Western production) which are known to have problems of separation. I own one of these lenses s/n 1979274, a 1,5/5cm LTM Sonnar, which has a strong separation inside: a question of glue.
Yours is a Jup, so on the Jena eastern side. These lenses are generally free from this kind of problem. And in 1952, the Jup 11 was surely completely made by KMZ. So, it's certainly an individual problem.
Amitiés. Jacques. |
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Trazin
39 Posts |
Posted - Jun 19 2015 : 07:05:47 AM
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Hello Jacques,
So it might mean that somewhere around 1952 KMZ experimented some multicoated lenses and issued some of them... It's interesting! And maybe a multicoated version of other jupiter also exists :)
Amitié, Cyril. |
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Trazin
39 Posts |
Posted - Jun 24 2015 : 2:39:34 PM
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Hello everyone !
I found another multicoated jupiter. I could uncrew it and I found a sratched number on the lens block. It seems to be "45" and a Russian "Á". I also found a J-12 of the same kind from 1957.I have still no idea about this multicoated serie of jupiter since I haven't found any information about multicoated jupiters, they seem to be mostly unknown :( ...
[url=http://postimg.org/image/4qqnwxq1f/full/] [/url]
[url=http://postimg.org/image/n8v0h67tf/full/] [/url]
[url=http://postimg.org/image/o9v96aosz/full/] [/url]
Cyril
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Jacques M.
France
2599 Posts |
Posted - Jun 24 2015 : 3:14:01 PM
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Hi Cyril,
The two "45" on your lens are there obviously for reasons of mounting, at the factory or a repairman's.
As for the Jup 12, if your question is about the date of changing mono towards multi coating, I don't know. I have made a quick research: no real answer.
A question more to solve?
Jacques.
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Trazin
39 Posts |
Posted - Jun 24 2015 : 3:52:01 PM
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Hi Jacques!
In fact, since there is no documentation about these lenses, there is a lot of question to solve :). The main answer being why did they start making some multi coated lenses in the early 1950's and then stopped (wasn't it a kind of substential progress for color photo?!) and why so few of theses lenses were produced as they seem to be rare enough... Maybe I'm mistaking but they seem to be as hard to find as ZK ones but not as expensive ecause no one is looking for them :).
Amitiés,
Cyril |
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Trazin
39 Posts |
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Trazin
39 Posts |
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Jacques M.
France
2599 Posts |
Posted - Dec 30 2015 : 11:44:54 AM
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Hello Cyril!
At first sight, the body of your BK seems correct, with its two screws. As for the glasses, of course, I cannot tell. A 1948 BK should have a Zeiss number, I think.
Note that I own three early Jup 12. Two have Zeiss numbers, and the bodies are different on the three ones...
Amitiés.
And all my wishes to everybody for 2016!
Jacques. |
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Alexander K.
AlexanderK
Germany
590 Posts |
Posted - Dec 30 2015 : 2:08:28 PM
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Hi Cyril,
your Jup-12 seems to be the late one. My opinion, it is not a genuine BK-lens. The rear cap seems to be not genuine as well, sorry.
P.S. I bought 2009 two BK lenses from one seller from Moscow, both are fakes (unfortunately I have checked them about 1/2 year later).
May be we have the same seller . You can write me on my Email.
Regards, Alexander |
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Trazin
39 Posts |
Posted - Dec 31 2015 : 01:40:21 AM
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Hello everyone!
All jy wishes for 2016! Hope you will a lot of interesting cameras during the it's ing new year !
This is really disappointing. The fake is really well made it nerfs just a Zeiss number... And its not most difficult to fake ...
Best wishes,
Cyril |
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zhang
Kievuser
310 Posts |
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jed
France
391 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Mar 13 2016 : 12:45:34 AM
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Hi Zhang,
My 1954 s/n 5447526 j8 is also without the 3 screws. Lens came with a Zorki 3.
Best,
Jed |
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zhang
Kievuser
310 Posts |
Posted - Mar 13 2016 : 09:03:08 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by jed
Hi Zhang,
My 1954 s/n 5447526 j8 is also without the 3 screws. Lens came with a Zorki 3.
Best,
Jed
Hi Jed,
Thanks for the input. I guess I did not pay much attention to these details before. I had a look at all the J-8s on that auction site last night and it seems that this type of J-8s are very common. In fact, all the J-8s made before 1954 including the ZKs are without the 3 screws. J-8s made between 1955 and sometime in 1959 has the focusing lever,and 3 screws , and J-8s made later are without the lever.
Cheers,
Zhang |
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Topic |
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ZK Zorki And other uncommon Jupiter lenses
