| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Ulrich W.
uwittehh
Germany
834 Posts
My Collection
|
 Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 2:52:18 PM
|
Hello,
I got this KIEV III from 1949 recently. After cleaning and reassembling it it looks like this now:
Really stunning. But why? And why is there a flash connector like on the KIEV IIIa?
So a little story about examinig this camera :-) Maybe we can discuss about it a bit.
First of all the lever of the selftimer seems to be narrower than on later Kievs. On one of my KIEV II from 1949 the lever is also narrower:
The release knob for the selftimer has only 4 feathers, the one at the end is missing, like on Jacques Jena Contax:
A look in and on top of the prism, looks as one from a Contax.
Rewind knob:
On the shutter there is an number scratched in, how I have seen it on very early KIEVs before:
Now to the lightmeter. The wiring looks very old, so I took a closer look. The selenium cell was stamped with the date "31. März 1939" (31th of march). There is another text stamped on the left side, but I am not able to read it:
Black and white with more contrast. Maybe somebody can read the text on the left side?
The wiring and the meter:
Under the top there are a lot of additional inspriptions:
The flash connectot. Very interesting. On the front of the camera there is a normal flash connector like it is factory installed on the KIEV IIIa. Inside you can see that it seems not to be factory made. But interesting is, that the shape of the copper parts are like on the KIEV IIIa:
The mechanism inside looks a bit like the one on the KIEV IIIa, but it differs. E.g. the cable does not go through the shutter housing:
Now the weird part... the shutter itself. The camera is not funcional. It looks as if the shutter ribbons were broken. So I removed the back of the shutter housing to take a closer look. What I found sounds crazy. The ribbons are not broken. They are connected on top and on the bottom of the shutter as they should.
But... THEY ARE INSTALLED INCORRECTLY! They do not go through the small slit on the first curtain. WTF? Look at this:
And at last, on the leather there were a lot of "Zeiss-Bumps", those bulbs with the green rust under them. And it was a lot of it!
Ulrich
http://fotos.cconin.de |
|
Ulrich W.
uwittehh
Germany
834 Posts
My Collection
|
Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 3:40:24 PM
|
About the lens. It is a collapsible Zorki ZK from 1949. The glasses are coatet in light blue and light pink. There is no Zeiss number inside of it. The number matches to the camera number compared to my two KIEV II from 1949.
I think, I do not repair the shutter. It's so strange that the ribbons are installed incorrectly, so that I will store it on my shelf as it is :-)
Ulrich
http://fotos.cconin.de |
Edited by - uwittehh on Dec 12 2015 3:42:04 PM |
 |
|
altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - Dec 12 2015 : 6:15:34 PM
|
Dear Ulrich,
The word in the left part is something like "Electro(n?)...tt" (I can read this partly from another selenium plate). It is a little bit strange why it is not "Elektro..."
Under the shoe for accessories you can also find the serial number of the light-meter.
with best regards
altix
|
|
|
Ulrich W.
uwittehh
Germany
834 Posts
My Collection
|
Posted - Dec 13 2015 : 02:31:09 AM
|
Altix,
thanks, that makes sense. Then the word is "Electrozelle". That it is written with a "c" is ok, to take a "c" instead of a "z" was modern that time. On old pictures you can often see "Cigaretten" on stores. And the "c" was also a replacement for the "k" in that time.
Under the shoe for accessories there is no serial number.
Ulrich
http://fotos.cconin.de |
Edited by - uwittehh on Dec 13 2015 2:45:38 PM |
|
|
altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2015 : 03:56:18 AM
|
Dear Ulrich
The "Electrozelle" is most suitable word but I clearly see that instead of "Z" there is something like "n", "w" or "u". I would say it is "Electrowatt" but on your plate I cannot recognize "W". Unfortunately I cannot upload the pictures. Something wrong with my account on ussrphoto???
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/13122015_
Sorry, I forgot to mention that the serial on light-meter you can see if you remove its body from the cast alloy housing. It is under the shoe but covered with housing so you unable to see it.
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/13122015_
I think that the ribbons were repaired later probably during the installation of synchro socket. The repairman made it wrong. If you observe the surface near lower curtain ribbon catchers you can see the traces on black paint from the ribbon. So initially the shutter was assembled correctly.
with best regards
altix
|
|
|
Ulrich W.
uwittehh
Germany
834 Posts
My Collection
|
Posted - Dec 13 2015 : 04:09:16 AM
|
Altix,
I think it is an old german "z" like the one in the date of the word "März". That looks at the top a bit like a "n".
Btw, your pictures seem not to work.
Ulrich
http://fotos.cconin.de |
Edited by - uwittehh on Dec 13 2015 04:26:23 AM |
|
|
altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2015 : 04:14:09 AM
|
yes, you are right. I did not think about this 
Yes, as I wrote above I cannot upload any picture to ussrphoto. It is very strange |
Edited by - altix on Dec 13 2015 04:59:05 AM |
|
|
Ulrich W.
uwittehh
Germany
834 Posts
My Collection
|
Posted - Dec 13 2015 : 09:23:46 AM
|
You are right, it looks as if the camera has worked before. But it sounds crazy, the owner has given the camera away for repair or installing the flash sync and he gets it back in non working order. What a funny repairman that must have been 
Ok, to see if there is a serial number on the lightmeter I think I will not open it again now. But I guess when the selenium cell is original the whole lightmeter might be one that was made for a Contax.
Ulrich
http://fotos.cconin.de |
|
|
altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2015 : 12:36:42 PM
|
Dear Ulrich,
Is much easier to say which details are different from Dresden Contax: front plate, top chrome plate, back door and bayonet. The brass detail that fixes the bottom of light-meter housing on its place (11th picture of the first post) is also not from the Dresden Contax (it should be with the serial number of light-meter). The shutter seems to be from "M" series. Interestingly that my Kiev III 1952 has the shutter of earlier "G" or "J" series, the light-meter also is dated by 1939 but in general the camera has more Kiev features. Arsenal utilized every available spare part and detail brought from Dresden and Jena for early cameras in arbitrary order.
Concerning the shutter repair, it is quite common mistake if you have little experience with Kiev shutters. The shutter will operate without this additional friction but this operation will cause problems like in-homogeneous illumination of the film and can cause the problem if someone changes the shutter speed (the curtain can fall down during this operation). The experienced repairman was unable to make this mistake. it is probably the self-repair of the owner?
The lens cap is nice and rare. Nice purchase!
altix
|
Edited by - altix on Dec 13 2015 12:41:32 PM |
|
|
Ulrich W.
uwittehh
Germany
834 Posts
My Collection
|
Posted - Dec 13 2015 : 1:31:51 PM
|
Altix,
thanks for your explanations. The previous owner was a collector and did not know that the shutter was repaired and broken. By the way, the serial number of the camera is 490093 so it's an early KIEV from 1949.
Do you mean the lens cap on this picture? I have never seen such a cap on a KIEV before, I only know such caps from Contaxes, then they are engraved with "Carl Zeiss Jena" or "Zeiss Opton Germany".
Ulrich
http://fotos.cconin.de |
|
|
altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2015 : 4:31:44 PM
|
| Yes, it is the original lens cap for 1948-1949 lenses. First caps had engraving "Kiev". Surely they were made in Jena for soviets and do not have stamping "Carl Zeiss Jena". Interesting enough there exist very similar caps (Zeiss Jena style) made by British firm Nebro but with slightly smaller diameter (41.5). |
Edited by - altix on Dec 13 2015 4:34:50 PM |
|
|
Jacques M.
France
2599 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2015 : 10:51:51 AM
|
Thanks, Ulrich, for the photos of your 1949 Kiev III. Somebody else who is able to dismount a Kiev up to the last screw! Congratulations!
When I compare with my own Kiev III, s/n 490106, I don't really see differences. Perhaps the lever of the selftimer is a bit shorter on your camera. But the main parts (including the viewfinder which looks like a Contax's) seem identical. The lightmeter has the same sensivity of 10° DIN.
Altix points that Arsenal has used German parts in arbitrary order for the early Kievs. Certainly. And we can too imagine that these early Kievs III were mounted in Jena until 1949 or 1950, with the remaining Contax parts, and the "new" Jena-Contax ones.
Amitiés. Jacques. |
|
|
Ulrich W.
uwittehh
Germany
834 Posts
My Collection
|
Posted - Dec 14 2015 : 2:34:15 PM
|
Jacques,
thanks, I can't disassemble it until the last screw. But I am able to reassemble it with no left over parts 
I think even if it is broken the camera was a nice find. Do we know how many KIEV III were built in 1948 and 1949? One source I have read says "a few in 1948 and some dozen in 1949" others say "some hundred until regular production in 1952".
Now the next candidate lies disassembled on my table. It's a Contax II from 1936/37 (serial number starts with "C"). It looks total horrible, over and over is green rust on the chrome parts down to the brass. But the leather looks very good (no bumps) and inside it looks like new, no dirt, no rust.
It would be interesting under which conditions these different oxidation stages happen. Some cameras have chrome like new but really big Zeiss bumps under the leather, others like mine have a lot green rust on the outer chrome parts and fine leather and others look like new after 75 years.
Ulrich
http://fotos.cconin.de |
|
|
SteveA
United Kingdom
131 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2015 : 3:11:23 PM
|
Hi. The selenium cell is a Zeiss one - I have one removed from a 1938 Contax which has the same "Electrozelle" stamp on it, and a date stamp "Feb 1938". The meter is Zeiss by the looks of it whilst the chrome top cover is of Russian origin. The camera has Zeiss shutter blinds (with the black leather 'heal' on the lower curtain reel).The sprocket release button is Jena style. The early Kiev III's were, according to many, made up from available parts. Who knows what the history of this camera may be? The corrosion (Zeiss bumps) is a reaction between the animal glues used to fasten the leather down and dampness - this forms a corrosive compound which attacks the brass rivets.
Re. the volume of Kiev's made. For 1947 and 1948, the last 4 digits did not start at zero for the start of the year (just carried on counting up)and there was a suggestion that this carried on to 1950. Often the chassis number matched the serial number - e.g. my 1948 Kiev 481100 has chassis number 1100. One could speculate that your camera is the 4548th one made, bearing in mind only a few hundred were made in 1947, then around 2000 in 1948 and around 2000 in 1949..
Cheers,
Steve |
|
|
Ulrich W.
uwittehh
Germany
834 Posts
My Collection
|
Posted - Dec 14 2015 : 4:08:44 PM
|
Steve,
thanks, very interesting information! "Electrozelle" was the right word then. It is a word that sounds a bit strange in my ears. It's a typical german word when you speak it loud
Also interesting that the shutter blinds are original Contax. So we can say it is one of the earliest "Frankenstein"-camera made of several parts from different locations and productions. And you are right, it would be interesting what history this camera has. But the seller did not know anything about it.
The highest scratched shutter number I have is in 8xxx, don't know the exact number now. I also thought that this is the 4548th camera that was built, but as I know this numbering includes KIEV II and KIEV III models. What was the ratio between KIEV II and III models? Any ideas?
The cover of the light meter has two different chrome, one finer on the housing and one coarser (that shines more) on the flap:
Ulrich
http://fotos.cconin.de |
Edited by - uwittehh on Dec 14 2015 4:10:15 PM |
|
|
Jacques M.
France
2599 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2015 : 4:19:14 PM
|
Concerning the 1949 production, here are my datas, concerning the Kiev III only:
490030 ZK 49 03189coll
490093 ZK 49 02668rig
490106 ZK 49 03695rig
490119 ZK 49 03515
490133 ZK 49 04371
490135 ZK 49 05014
490195 ZK 49 04564
490216 ZK 49 04360
So, probably no more than 250/300 Kiev III in 1949.
For 1948, I only have four ones which are not completely sure.
No doubt, you have a rare camera, Ulrich!
Amitiés. Jacques. |
Edited by - Jacques M. on Dec 15 2015 02:45:08 AM |
|
|
Ulrich W.
uwittehh
Germany
834 Posts
My Collection
|
Posted - Dec 14 2015 : 4:26:15 PM
|
Jacques,
thanks for the numbers. We have to put them in the Wiki if they are not there.
One correction, the lens of mine is collapsible :-)
Ulrich
P.S. Uhh, I have found the numbers in the Wiki and updated them ;-) And it's btw. interesting that there are more 1947 KIEV II than 1949 KIEV III in the list.
http://fotos.cconin.de |
Edited by - uwittehh on Dec 14 2015 4:48:20 PM |
|
|
jed
France
391 Posts
My Collection
|
Posted - Dec 15 2015 : 01:45:58 AM
|
Hi there,
Here 's a better-stamped 'Electrocell' 
 |
|
|
Jacques M.
France
2599 Posts |
Posted - Dec 15 2015 : 07:45:30 AM
|
Thanks for the correction about the lens: I had not seen it is a collapsible one.
About the numbering, the Kiev II were numbered straightly from 1947 to 1949 included, with some hesitation at the beginning (47xxxx, then 47xxx). So, by the listing, 6259 Kiev II would have been produced during these three years.
By year:
- around 500 in 1947,
- some 1700 in 1948,
- more than 4000 in 1949.
The Kiev III were numbered inside the Kiev II numbering in 1948. But we only have four. In 1949, they have a reserved numbering, figuring a batch, from 490001 (I suppose!) to 490216, for what we know. So, around 220 Kiev III produced in 1949. No possible confusion with the Kiev II, as the limit between 1948 and 1949 is at around 2000 for them. That is interesting to know, to detect fakes, if necessary...
In 1950, the counters are put to 0. So, about 500 Kiev III and 6000 Kiev II, always by our listing. And the numberings are always separate: 50xxxx for the Kiev II, 50xxx for the III.
The progression is impressive, at least for the Kiev II. For the III, Arsenal had difficulties with the meter...
Amitiés. Jacques. |
|
|
Ulrich W.
uwittehh
Germany
834 Posts
My Collection
|
Posted - Dec 15 2015 : 12:47:20 PM
|
Jacques,
thanks, the numbering is very interesting. And you are right, it's impressive how the production increases in only 3 years.
Jed,
very interesting that on your selenium cell it is written in english with "cell" at the end. Then the "Electro" with a "c" makes more sense.
Ulrich
http://fotos.cconin.de |
|
|
SteveA
United Kingdom
131 Posts |
Posted - Dec 15 2015 : 2:01:48 PM
|
I checked my cell again - it is Electrocell but badly stamped. Very interesting is that mine is Feb 1938 (the day falls off the edge) but the blue-green pencilled number appears to be 78nn84 (the middle numbers are unreadable) and in the same hand as in Jed's photo. The light meter cover is Kiev (subtle differences in the pressings) - I believe some early Kiev III's had Zeiss meter covers. Peter Hennig's page www3.telus.net/public/rpnchbck/zconrfKiev.htm has an illustration of a 1949 Kiev III
Steve |
|
|
jed
France
391 Posts
My Collection
|
Posted - Jan 13 2016 : 4:30:54 PM
|
Hi,
Just finished to repair an early 1952 Kiev III and I thought to myself that you may like to see the cell markings :
Best,
Jean |
Edited by - jed on Jan 13 2016 4:45:44 PM |
|
|
SteveA
United Kingdom
131 Posts |
Posted - Jan 17 2016 : 05:34:31 AM
|
Hi, that looks like a Russian produced cell - the Zeiss ones generally had a separate frame which held the cell in, with no wire soldered the cell itself. The Russian ones had a wire soldered to the corner of the cell.
Cheers,
Steve |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
Strange KIEV III from 1949
