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James McGee
James McGee
Azerbaijan
192 Posts |
 Posted - Feb 25 2008 : 10:31:33 AM
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Hello everyone,
I'm pleased to say that I am back home in England now, at least for a couple of weeks anyway.
I have started to enter serial numbers, etc into the WIKI, but as usual whilst sorting my cameras have noticed a couple of anomilies. For a example I have a Fed-1, which looks like a nice 1B, but the serial number says it should be 1A. This is a clean honest camera and seems to be in original condition. any thoughts?
The main differences from a normal 1A are square rangefinder window, accessory shoe, and later engraving, (as 1B).
BTW the camera behind in the top picture is No 8172, and it has a notched rangfinder window.
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Edited by - James McGee on Feb 25 2008 10:49:55 AM |
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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2008 : 11:29:53 AM
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Hi Jim,
Your # 4875 is of course a 1b with a reingraved serial number. Possibly an error or an 1a resent to the factory to be repaired. The factory could have sent a new one with the previous number. But nobody knows exactly. I own such a 1b (#1126) which visibly should be numbered between 10 and 20000.
Your 8172 is a beautiful 1b2, if I can say, the 1b1 being without accessory clip. Numbers between 7800-8700 for these 1b2, as far as I know.
Amitiés. Jacques.
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BERRY alain
mermoz37
France
814 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2008 : 11:30:36 AM
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isn't it a "transition" model (i possess some as this) whith "big head" and depression under speed drum,
missing in Princelle's references ? |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Feb 25 2008 : 11:31:50 AM
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Hi Jim,
I have seen this many times and even have two examples myself. I have consulted with others about this as well.
There seem to be at least two or three schools of thought, although everyone seems to agree that these cameras are FED-1B cameras.
Some think that these cameras are mis-numbered, with the last digit being left off by the person who engraved the numbers.
Others have ideas that there may have either been another small FED factory (in the Lesopark district of Kharkov) where a separate group of cameras were made and numbered separately (but for what reason).
One other thing I have though is that possibly, during this period, when an owner of an earlier FED went to have it fixed by FED, they just gave the owner a new FED and engraved the old number on it.
The two cameras I own are identical to yours as far as all features and the serial numbers are No.3631 and No.417. As well, I have a photo of a passport (from a Russian collector in Kharkov) dated 1936 with camera No.3504. Below are some photos.
I think that these cameras are not just "mis-numbered", but I don't know the real reason or answer. I think it would be good to have a catalog entry for them, with a list of serial numbers. It could be called "FED-1B- Unusual Numbers". Maybe someday we will find a good explanation.
passport from Russian collector - front
passport from Russian collector - inside
Bill's camera No.3631
Bill's camera No.417
Bill's cameras - front views
Regards, Bill
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James McGee
James McGee
Azerbaijan
192 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2008 : 12:00:31 PM
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Jacques, Bill,
Thanks for the excellent information. In fact this camera is a beauty and a joy in itself, I'm sure that this is it's original condition.
I'm pleased to be in such good company with this camera
Regards,
Jim
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Feb 25 2008 : 12:55:37 PM
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It seems that these uniquely numbered cameras are all of the same type and time and date between 1936 and 1939, approximately, and so must represent a specific practice at FED during those years. Probably not, just mis-numbering, in my opinion.
And, why would a camera that was being repaired and so had the old number engraved on a new camera, come with a new passport? These cameras all have the same style vulcanite and other features of a 1936 - 1939 camera and none of the features of the earlier FED-1A which you would think would be the case if they were just repaired.
Maybe there was some practice at FED during these years just to just replace a broken camera and issue a new passport with the old number on the passport and the camera.
Or, one other idea I have had is that they may have been of some military issued series, as when you look at the front of the passport that I pictured in my post above, the "FED" logo seems different than what I have seen before and also includes a "hammer and sickle" and a "star", symbols of the Soviet military. I have not seen this before.
The Russian collectors from Kharkov that I once talked to said there was a separate additional production facility of FED at Lesopark, which has a somewhat unique history with the Soviet military also.
Regards, Bill
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James McGee
James McGee
Azerbaijan
192 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2008 : 1:28:46 PM
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Bill,
Thanks again for the additional information. I think all this goes to prove the importance of recording serial numbers. Already we are gaining valuable information from each other.
I have already logged some stuff into the WIKI, my two Fed-S, Fed-1 Berdsk, Fed-Zorki, Fed lenses and so on. Tomorrow I will enter all my Fed-1's up to 1d.
Cheers,
Jim.
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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2008 : 2:11:10 PM
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Hi,
Really interesting!
Thanks, Bill! It's the first time I see a passport for such a camera...
The serial number of the lens (44236) shows that the body should belong to the same numbers: not far from 44000. And the large YCCP engraving confirms it. So such a camera, body and lens, was officially recorded by Fed. I was in doubt on that point till now... Of course, a new entry for these odd # would be appropriate, but not only for the 1b: some strange Fed 1S c exist too: they are on the S listing.
To Alain: we can call the 1b with notched window as "transition models". But in fact, there would be three transition models:
- without clip, with notched window (1b1),
- with clip and notched window (1b2),
- with clip and rectangular window with recess (1b3)
before the plain 1b: rectangular window flush with the cover.
I had used a classification inspired by Pegorari (1b1..)to be more clear.
Thanks, Jim to give us such a discussion about Feds!
Amitiés. Jacques.
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tunznath
United Kingdom
2 Posts |
Posted - Mar 05 2008 : 09:08:38 AM
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Hi All
Please help
where is this serial number wiki that everyone is entering numbers into - |
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Mar 05 2008 : 10:04:30 AM
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Hi tunznath,
Welcome to the site!
Well FED 1A serials should go into this entry:
http://www.ussrphoto.com/Wiki/default.asp?WikiCatID=98&ParentID=1&ContentID=87&Item=FED+1a
Even though there are none there right now for this particular model, you can create heading inside entry called Known Serial Numbers and list the serials you know of... I know FED-1S had serial numbers in the entry, I am not so sure whether Jacques and others created a list of 1A and where it is..
Vlad. |
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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Mar 05 2008 : 2:53:54 PM
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Hi,
We didn't create a list about the 1a.
Perhaps we could: in that case, it would be by the entry given by Vlad.
Anyway, it seems to me less useful than for the S: we do know where the 1a are (between 1 and c6000). The S are on the whole range of c, d and e... Or if we do, perhaps we could note the different parameters one can have on a 1a: vulcanite (thin or rough), body chromed, burnished or black...
Amitiés. Jacques. |
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tunznath
United Kingdom
2 Posts |
Posted - Mar 05 2008 : 4:36:23 PM
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Hi Vlad
Thanks for the welcome will have a look now
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Edited by - tunznath on Mar 05 2008 4:39:11 PM |
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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
973 Posts
My Collection
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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Aug 01 2008 : 11:45:36 AM
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I agree with you, Aidas.
With such a serial number of the lens, the camera was certainly originally numbered by the factory. Bill showed us a passport which seems to prove it.
Strange...
Jacques. |
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Aug 01 2008 : 10:24:19 PM
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Regarding the Lesopark idea, Bill, I think it is the address for the FED commune, and not a subdivision.. so not sure about the 2 FED factories idea.. do you have any more info on that?
Vlad |
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James McGee
James McGee
Azerbaijan
192 Posts |
Posted - Aug 02 2008 : 12:33:41 AM
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Hi everyone,
Aidas, is this camera,(1032) yours? If so congratulations! Several months have now passed since this topic was first raised, and in that time I have given this subject some thought.
It seems to me that the best explaination for the existence of these cameras is the one first put forward by Bill and supported by Jacques. That is to say that these, (Fed-1-b) cameras with Fed-1-a serial numbers are replacement cameras for faulty Fed-1-a cameras with a corresponding serial number. This latest find by Aidas also seems to support this idea.
The reasons that I support Bill's idea are as follows.
1: During the time the Fed-1-a was in production, (1934/1935) the Communards would have been young and inexperienced, and no doubt they would have made many mistakes in those early days.
2: The new tooling and machinery for making the camera parts would still to some extent have been experiencing "teething problems", and would still have needed "tuning".
3: At that time none of the workers, or Communards had yet gained any experience or knowledge of how to repair these cameras when they didn't work properly.
4: Because none of the workers yet had any experience in repairing these cameras, It would have been easier for "Fed" to simply replace a faulty camera with a new one, and engrave the number from the faulty camera on it.
5: At this time with the production of a their very first camera under way "Fed" would have been very concious that they needed to establish a good reputation, and they wouldn't have wanted negative feed back from the people who had bought the cameras.
6: All of the cameras from our own collections which show this anomaly ie, "Fed-1-a" serial number, but with a "Fed-1-b" body, would have had in all cases a serial below 55,000 if they had been part of normal production, (produced between 1935/1937). This ties in well with a guarantee period of one year for a "Fed-1-a".
7: I would guess that the practice of replacing faulty cameras with new ones would have been phased out as the Communards became more skilful, and by the time the "Fed-1-C" was in production the Communards would have learned how to repair a faulty camera, hence no longer any need to replace it with a new one.
Best wishes to all, Jim
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Aug 02 2008 : 12:48:34 AM
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Vlad,
I had information that about 1937 FED expanded, not only in the number of workers, but also expanded their facilities (I think another building at Lesopark) and, if I remember correctly, this building had a different address than seen on other passports. I am trying to see if I can locate the information that I had, and if I find it I will post it.
Also around this time (1936 - 1939), many things were happening with FED as well as with NKVD and somethings happened at Lesopark with NKVD (bad stuff). This time was when FED became under the control of the NKVD. When they expanded by 750 new commune members and "backed up by 400 people from outside" (Princelle page 89). When labor communes like FED were abolished. When Makarenko (founder of the commune) was transferred away and eventually was disappeared (April 1939). So, a lot was happening in this period.
I think comparisons between the passport I pictured above, from one of these low numbered late FEDs, and other passports from normally numbered passports from this period, might help to give some information.
A dealer that I knew in Kharkov, who I bought the FED-6TTLs from, actually sent me photos of that passport (shown above). He was also interested in this mystery and actually went to Lesopark to find the old FED building, and he sent me photos of it. So I will try to find them to see if it is a different FED building or the one we usually see.
What happened to that original FED building (shown on page 89 of Princelle)? Is that the same building that later FEDs, after the War were made in? And is that one in the photo in Lesopark?
Lots of questions ... sorry!
Regards, Bill
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Aug 02 2008 : 01:34:32 AM
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Vlad,
Here is what I found so far: The seller who gave me the photos of that passport said about that camera and passport:
"Camera was made in Aug 1936, but not on FED territory. ... "
Also he mentions another address for a FED Passport, "Kharkov, Sumskaya Str.(I don't remember number, I think 134)".
As well, the passport shown on page 90 of Princelle has an address of "Lesopark 54" (for FED #16721 - 1936) and below is a passport from 1941, shown on the DVD Tech site (and Luiz's NOVACON) with the same address (Leopark 54) and for FED-S #180024.
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/017.jpg
So at least two addresses in Lesopark (or two buildings) #27 and #54. And during the same period of time.
Regards, Bill
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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Aug 02 2008 : 05:19:31 AM
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Hi Bill,
I had noticed there were two addresses and I imagined the 27th was the previous one, the 54th being the new one for the growing factory. And I had not had the idea of taking my magnifier to check the 90th page of the JLP...
So we have now three addresses for the same period. I didn't know the Sumskaya one.
Of course, this question is very important to know what happens to the factory, especially in the last months. I already used the passport you show (from DVD) to say that contrarily to what we usually think, Fed S-s could have been made in Kharkov up to the serial # c. 180xxx. And so they would not deserve their name of "Berdsk". But it's another matter.
Very interested by this topic which shows life under our collections. Without these investigations, our cameras are nothing but dead things...
Amitiés. Jacques.
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Aug 02 2008 : 10:02:01 AM
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Bill,
Couple of bits of information and a theory:
1. Sumskaya ulitsa seems to be the current FED address
2. Lesopark was a large undeveloped area on the outskirts of Kharkov along one of the main highways as far as I know, once they started building commune there they would just start numbering buildings in that Lesopark area (ForestPark).. my neighbor is from Kharkov I will find out more details from him.
3. Regarding numbering I have a theory of my own: In the book that Aidas posted recently about Pioner and FAG it says that after a year of production at FED the manufacturing had went through complete overhaul and the started making a different quality level of camera (which matched the quality of Leica)... my guess is maybe they had restarted numbers from the beginning after that happened, considering the FED-1a as preseries numbering of an unsuccessful unreliable trial series? What do you think of that?
4. Expanding the manufacturing to another building on the campus seems unlikely to warrant a new numbering system, but everything is of course possible
5. Jim's theory makes a lot of sense, and I think this is what led me to this of my point #3
Vlad |
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Aug 02 2008 : 10:04:28 AM
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| Also my theory is that Sumskaya is the address FED relocated to after the war or they had changed the address after the Lesopark was urbanized. |
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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Aug 02 2008 : 10:58:40 AM
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Hi Vlad,
About the numbering, there is no solution of continuity, as far as I know, between the 1a-s and the early 1b-s.
And after the 1a-s and till the 1b-s of the 20000 range, there were many evolutions, but no rupture of numbering either.
So, always no certitude: only a prossibility that the factory changed the non working cameras while keeping the same numbers. But it doesn't explain the new passport that Bill showed... Perhaps there are several explanations?
Very interested by what you say about Lesopark and the outskirts of Kharkhov.
Jacques.
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Edited by - Jacques M. on Aug 02 2008 11:12:11 AM |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Aug 02 2008 : 12:16:51 PM
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Hi Vlad,
It could be that your theory has some truth, however, it would then seem like we would see many more low numbered cameras with the late characteristics and ... very few late characteristic cameras with the higher numbers. Wouldn't all the late characteristic cameras have the smaller numbers? Unless after ten thousand of the newly numbered cameras they switched back to the old numbering system. Not very likely.
I think there have been three different FED factories. First, the one shown on page 90 of Princelle (but I don't know where that one was), then an expansion, with several buildings in Lesopark (#27 & #54), then after the war, the new factory which we know today, on Sumskaya. Although this does not solve the mystery of these cameras, it may be a clue.
But my real question is: What is the address of the first FED factory, shown in Princelle page 90 ? I ask this because the person that lived in Kharkov and said that there where small FED buildings in Lesopark actually went and photographed them. When I saw the photos, the buildings did not look like either the firts FED Commune building or like the Sumskaya building. It was several buildings behind a low wall with many trees around (of course as it is actually in Lesopark an actual park-like area ... not housing, etc.). As well, this man told me that there was a direct small railway from the old FED to the Lesopark building, which actually still exists, at least partially. Unfortunately, I don't have these photos anymore , but I will try to get them again.
Do any of our members live in Kharkov and knw more about this? I have an idea that since NKVD was taking over FED, and, NKVD was somewhat active in the Lesopark area, possibly this series of cameras were made for NKVD use and so were given numbers that already had been used earlier. But why, other than they would not be listed on the official FED records? Just another theory to consider.
Regards, Bill
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Aug 02 2008 : 12:39:12 PM
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Vlad,
Should I add a new camera into the WIKI called "FED-1b - Unusual Serial Numbers" and then we can list the serial numbers of the ones we have, and possibly characteristics ?
Also, to clarify, I think the most viable theory is that these cameras are replacements for early cameras that were broken or needed repair, for the exact same reasons that Jim outlined at the end of the first page of this thread. The serial numbers I have collected so far would also point to that scenario.
Probably when a person brought in a broken camera, a new one was taken from stock, engraved with the old number, and given back to the owner. This way there would also be less complaints about the "Russian Leica" which was good for the Soviet Industrial reputation ... very important.
Here are the numbers I have collected so far:
Serial No.
280 - DVD Tech
417 - Bill Parkinson
1032 - Aidas Pikiotas
1653 - seen on Molotok
1705 - DVD Tech Site
3504 - Collector in Kharkov (with passport photos) 1936 / Lens Tessar Type # 44236
3631 - Bill Parkinson
3909 - (FED-1S) DVD Tech Site
4586 - (FED-1S & B ?)DVD Tech Site
4875 - James McGee
5664 - DVD Tech Site
Regards, Bill
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Aug 02 2008 : 3:07:19 PM
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Bill, I will try to research this further, need to talk to a few people in USA and in Kharkov, I have some contacts, how far I'll get - I don't know...
Regarding the camera entry in wiki, please do add one it would be very useful! Thank you!
In regards to actually re-engraving a number on the repaired cameras - I have my personal doubts about that. What I know of Soviet history - it was all about doing something fast and moving on to other things since the demand for these cameras was so great I really don't think they went to such extremes as re-engraving the old number on repaired cameras, especially at the time when the only people who could probably fix them were the factory personnel and having being pressured into manufacturing these cameras in unreal quantities I would doubt they would be doing so.. but just my 2 cents....
Also in regards to your theory of these building on campus used by NKVD, I tend to disagree with that as well probably, since I think you take the notion of NKVD stereotypically since the I believe from what I read the only role NKVD played in the labor commune was to initiate the effort to organize the delinquents (I don't think there was anything based there at FED that related to national security related activities) and I think these other building were probably school buildings or barracks if these are in fact the surviving pre-war buildings. Remember that most of the commune was not a factory but an educational facility.. but if these were post war buildings then they may have been new additions to take care of the airplane parts manufacturing which what FED pretty much became after the war when they moved the airplane parts manufacture back to Kharkov from Berdsk (which probably includes the Sumskaya HQ building)... my sources are Oscar Fricke and official FED current web site history page. (http://www.fed.com.ua/history.php)
Vlad. |
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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Aug 02 2008 : 5:34:17 PM
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Bill, could you add my # 1126, in fact a regular 1b which should be between c. 11500 and 21000?
Vlad, as for me, I don't think that the factory reingraved repaired cameras but rather that they engraved new (non engraved) covers which were mounted on couples of new bodies/lenses already regulated in the factory. That would explain why the numbers bodies/lenses seem to mismatch.
But I only suppose...
Amitiés. Jacques. |
Edited by - Jacques M. on Aug 02 2008 5:36:23 PM |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Aug 02 2008 : 5:42:50 PM
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Vlad,
I don't mean they would re-engrave an old camera. I think if you brought in your broken FED (say FED number 417), instead of repairing the camera, they would tell you to come back in two days, or whatever, and when you came back you would be given a new FED with the old number on it. So, rather than repairing your original camera, they would just replace it. To do this they would take a camera that had not be engraved on top yet, tell the engraver the proper number that they need, he would do it, a passport with the old number but new and proper date would be put with it, and then it would be brought to the "customer service office" where it would be given to the customer when they came back.
Actually, I don't take the different duties of the NKVD stereotypically. I have read about the organization and it's many changes in organization and specific duties. The fact is that the FED commune was under control of the NKVD. In 1934 the functions of the State Police were transferred to the NKVD. Engraving "NKVD" appears on top plates of FED in early 1935. In 1935 Makarenko is transferred away from the FED Commune. In 1936 750 new members are added to the Commune, and backed up by 400 outside workers. Also in 1937 Labor Communes were abolished. In 1939 FED becomes a Kombinat (so not a commune any longer ... now a combine factory). So many changes and no doubt that the NKVD was in control of FED to a large extent. Whether things were made at FED that were for the NKVD, internal police, or national security related activities, I have not heard of anything and have no opinion, but of course would not rule it out since they were under NKVD.
As far as the buildings in Lesopark ... although I don't have the photos anymore, I will try to get them. They did show old "FED" signs on them and were obviously part of the FED operation in some way. They did not look at all like post-War buildings, and evidently they had a small train tracks running some miles from the main FED factory to the Lesopark buildings. But I don't know what they were used for. In any case, these buildings may have been abandoned at least by FED shortly after, during the war, but they did not look big like the FED Commune Building pictured on page 89 and 91 of Princelle.
So, these cameras did come from that time of large growth and many organizational and production changes. My sources are Oscar Fricke, Princelle, translation of the FED site history, and the things that this man living in Kharkov told me and showed the photos of, which is of course anecdotal.
Still one big question I have is where the original FED Communune and it's building was located in Kharkov. I cannot find that information anywhere. Was it always "Lesopark 27" ?
Regards, Bill
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Aug 02 2008 : 6:07:05 PM
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I have created a category in the WIKI for these cameras called "FED 1b - Unusual Serial Numbers".
Please add more info and numbers if you have it.
Regards, Bill
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Aug 02 2008 : 7:09:38 PM
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Bill,
First of all thanks for the entry!
very interesting! A few thing I did not know, but I've been doing my own research as well, according to some of my data, the so called "control" of NKVD over the commune when it was first formed - it was funded by taking 5% from the salaries of NKVD operatives..
Regarding Makarenko being transfered away from FED - not entirely accurate according to some of my sources. Sometime in 1935-1936 Makarenko himself had wrote a letter of resignation from FED commune stating that he wants to pursue writing literature and be a full-time writer. On September 17 1936 his request had been approved and he moves to Moscow to keep working on his education theories. He gets promoted to Senior Inspector-Consultant of Educational-Correctional Work (hope that a right translation). In 1939 he dies from a heart failure in Moscow suburb of Golitsyno. (http://www.mirror.kiev.ua/3000/3150/31564/)
Still researching the location thing.. got the maps of Kharkov and everything... more to come!
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Aug 02 2008 : 7:16:53 PM
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Bill, it is an interesting theory that they would keep the number and give a person a new camera, just playing devil's advocate here but wouldn't it be easier to correct paperwork rather than engrave the camera with an old number.. but I guess with new blank cameras lying around it may make some sort of sense, but why have blank cameras and engrave them on individual basis when they can go via assembly line and be engraved in correct sequence with rest of production, and then give new camera to user with a new passport... hmm... I guess we'll never know unless we find someone from FED who is still alive to know some of these things.. which I will try to do next week with couple of leads that I have...
Vlad |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Aug 02 2008 : 7:56:11 PM
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Vlad, thanks for correcting me about Makarenko ... a heart attack is much better than "disappeared" !
I think that when cameras are made, especially in the case of FED at this particular time when they were trying to make the quality higher ... more like a Leica, the serial numbers would have been engraved after the camera was finsihed and thought to work correctly (probably just by firing it off and feeling the action and seeing the shutter move smoothly, and speeds sounding accurate). Then once it was thought fit to be a good FED it was engraved with a number, in sequence. You would not engrave the number before it was finished because if the camera was defective it would cause problems with the sequence of numbers. However, it would not be difficult for an employee who needed to replace customers broken or defective camera, to just go to the factory and order a camera with engraving to match the camera to be replaced. That camera would just be taken from the stock of finished and accepted cameras (but not yet engraved) and engraved with the proper number, a new passport made (filled in) and delivered to the customer service dept.! In my opinion, this would be a good solution for everyone since the customer will be happy to have the new modernized FED and fixing one of the early FEDS would be time consuming since many of the parts were more 'hand-made'. I don't think that the assembly line of even the improved FED was totally automatic, the way things are now. Probably the cameras were finished and tested and the engravers had a big group to work from . not like every time one was finished, it was then immediately engraved.
You are right that probably much of the details are not ever going to be found as it is not the kind of thing that a factory worker would write a book or article about, and many things done by the Government factories don't have public records and the government records, whatever there were, are probably gone or lost (or in storage ... like that big box of broken early FEDs that must have accumulated somewhere, if this 'replacement' theory is correct).
Anyway, so far it seems to be the best explanation for these FEDs with early numbers, and since there are quite a few of them, all from the same time, there must be some reason other than just a mistake in engraving. I believe the passport for one disproves the "mistake in engraving" theory.
Regards, Bill
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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
973 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Aug 03 2008 : 12:34:06 AM
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Hi,
Thanks for very interesting disscusion indeed! I'd like to add few more facts about A.Makarenko person. The biggest head-aches of Makarenko was his younger brother, who have emigrated to Paris just after revolution, while beeing retired officer of "Bellaja Gvardija". BTW brother was a very successful photographer in Paris, with many famous persons as a clients ...
You can imagine, that Anton Makarenko, not beeing a member of Cummunist Party and even more - with "enemy" brother in France was always under target of soviet secrete police himself. And only his close friendship with famous soviet writer Maksim Gorkij have helped him to survive ...
Beeing retired from the "Maksim Gorkij's" kids colony, he was "proposed" to lead the new-created Trudkommuna FED...
But back to camera related information ... May be not all of you know his famous phrase: "WE ARE NOT MANUFACTURING FEDS, WE ARE CREATING NEW PERSONS INDEED"! That was the reason he was reduced to the ranks and have became as the assistant of new FED director ... Very quicly A.Makarenko was transferred to Kharkov's NKVD office and was responsible for 12 similar kids colonies in Ukraine, with the exception of his beloved FED Trudkommuna ...!!! After the senseless job of 9 months (Makarenko had no mandate to change something in the proccesses), he have asked NKVD to be retired in 1936 ... Vlad's information about the last years of Makarenko's life is correct ...
Best Regards,
Aidas |
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Juhani Halmeenmaki
cedricfan
Finland
1020 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Aug 03 2008 : 12:37:33 AM
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Very interesting to read, thank you and keep on investigating!
Smena rules |
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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Aug 03 2008 : 07:07:03 AM
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Hello,
I try to enter the new section opened by Bill (thanks!) to complete the list and I cannot succeed in. Am I becoming invisible? 
Perhaps it would be interesting too to add which serie each final camera belongs to? It would give an idea of the date of making for the Ss.
Always about the Ss, there is something puzzling. If it seems normal to exchange a broken regular Fed against another one which is new, it would be too beautiful to receive an S... Perhaps we have other complementary explanations to look for for this special problem?
Amitiés. Jacques.
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James McGee
James McGee
Azerbaijan
192 Posts |
Posted - Aug 03 2008 : 10:25:23 AM
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Hello All,
Been to a friends dacha for the weekend so I'm just catching up with these latest, and very interesting posts.
Some interesting theories are emerging, though I still think the most likely scenario is that Fed preferred to replace faulty cameras with new ones rather than attempt a tricky and time consuming repair especially as at that time they would not have had anybody with the necessary skills or experience. Assembling cameras on a production line is one thing, repairing a camera is a different matter altogether, and much more difficult.
I agree with Bill's theory that Fed probably kept a stock of finished and tested cameras, but as yet without a serial number, and that these were specifically for replacement of faulty cameras that were returned to the factory.
To my mind this situation would only have lasted until workers had been trained well enough to repair cameras themselves.
Another idea is that the Fed management realised that many of the first production, ie the "Fed-1-a" up to serial number 6,000 were of inferior quality when compared to the "Fed-1-b" and decided as policy to replace any that were returned if the serial number was below 6,000.
I think that there must be something wrong if a "Fed-1-S" has a "Fed-1-a" serial number.
This anomaly seems to apply to the "Fed-1-b" only, and up to serial number 50,000, or thereabouts. It's concievable that the some of the last "Fed-1-a" cameras were still under warranty until 1937, but the "Fed-1-S" wasn't introduced until 1938 and as Jacques points out it's hard to imagine that Fed would replace a standard Fed with a "Fed-1-S"
Best wishes, Jim. |
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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Aug 03 2008 : 11:54:30 AM
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Let me tell a story, just for fun (but who knows?)
At the beginning of 1935, I buy a Fed 1a serial # 5330. Some months later, my Russian Leica stops working. A lot of chance, it's always under guarantee and I live in Lesopark 53, next to the factory (but I don't belong to the NKVD  ).
So I run to the "customer service office". They check the camera and keep it with the passport for the guarantee. And they tell me that another camera will be ready within 3 days.
The clerk goes to the assembly line, takes a couple of body/lens already regulated in the factory (the sacrosanct 28,8mm!). He asks a worker to engrave a new cover -it's the time of 1b-s after 1xxxx now-with 5330. All that is put together, the clerk writes a new passport with the ancient body number, the new lens number, and the new date for my guarantee. And three days later, I can enjoy my perfectly working new camera.
But the story is not finished. The ancient cover is destroyed: the same number cannot exist twice. The old body is put in a "big box of broken early Feds". Years later, exactly in 1954, somebody opens this big box, finds the body, repairs it, puts the cover of a 1g on it (it's just the time of 1g-s) and sells the camera to a certain Jacques Morin who had been interested to discover this strange camera by the pictures of the seller (I really own such a camera).
How does that sound?
Amitiés. Jacques.
PS: Vlad, I can open the new section, but no list appears. What happens? |
Edited by - Jacques M. on Aug 03 2008 3:37:35 PM |
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Aug 03 2008 : 1:15:19 PM
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Jacques, it is fixed, the font color for the serial numbers was set to white so it was not visible on white background .
I have to admit it is the most convincing explanation at this time. But I still want to persue the question of geographic location of FED factory building. I'll try to find something out.
Vlad |
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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Aug 03 2008 : 3:38:22 PM
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Thanks for the fixing, Vlad.
Jacques. |
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Aug 03 2008 : 9:56:38 PM
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While doing research bumped into this article about the Berdsk Radiozavod and what happened to it when FED moved there and then left... a bit unrelated but still interesting given the context.
http://rw6ase.narod.ru/0/zawod/berdskiy_rz.html
Vlad. |
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Aug 03 2008 : 10:26:35 PM
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Also found this absolutely incredible story from biography of Anton Makarenko about the creation of FED camera:
Pasting Russian text first, then Google translated one (sorry too big to translate manually but will translate any portions by request if they come through unclear)
Note: the first paragraph is an excerpt from Makarenko folk biography and the rest is clarification and pointing out the inaccuracies by professor Goetz HILLIG
Когда Антон Семенович уже некоторое время работал в коммуне Дзержинского, у него появилась идея создать завод, и он решил посоветоваться с ребятами. „Давайте будем делать пулеметы", - предложил один мальчик. „Хорошая идея, - ответил Макаренко, и продолжил: - Но ведь у нас столько девочек. Они не смогут носить тяжелые детали". Когда все замолчали, из толпы вдруг возник фотограф и начал снимать. „А что если мы будем делать фотоаппараты?" - предложил другой мальчик - и попал в точку. Макаренко уже вел переговоры с немецкой фирмой, у которой они впоследствии выкупили права на производство фотоаппаратов „ФЭД" (Феликс Эдмундович Дзержинский. - Г.Х.) и „ФЭД-1"".
Наименование „ФЭД-1" - это ошибка. „ФД-1" являлась маркой электродрели, которую завод коммуны производил - по образцам аналогичного продукта американской фирмы „Black & Decker" - еще до начала изготовления малоформатных фотоаппаратов „ФЭД" (по аналогу немецкой камеры „Leica"). О предложении в коммуне "делать пулеметы" в макаренковедении до сих пор ничего не было известно. Это же относится к невероятному утверждению, что Макаренко "вел переговоры с немецкой фирмой". Решение о том, чтобы в "Дзержинке" производить электроинструменты и фотоаппараты, принимало ГПУ УССР, „хозяин" коммуны. Ее заводы изготовляли их без лицензии. Впрочем, это относится и ко многим другим ценным инструментам, механизмам западного производства, которые во время пятилеток были нужны стране и в СССР выпускались нелегально.
По поводу технической реконструкции "ФЭДа" Макаренко в Московском педагогическом училище № 1 летом 1938 (в докладе "Основы политического воспитания в советской школе") рассказывал следующую историю, которая - независимо от ее правдивости - подтверждает факт нелегального производства данного фотоаппарата (впрочем, в советских собраниях сочинений А.С. Макаренко она отсутствует): "К нам приехала немецкая делегация. Мне позвонили по телефону, чтобы я был осторожен, т.к. эта делегация была явна фашистская. Я собрал бригадиров и сказал им, что делегация подозрительная. На другой день подъехала машина, в ней было человек 20. Дежурный бригадир встретил и пригласил гостей и тут же шепнул мне: „Задержите их в цехах минут на сорок, потом объясню". И все показал, кроме секретных цехов, и вообще был осторожен. Через сорок минут вывел их на улицу к машине, при мне подходит коммунар и говорит немцам: „Возьмите Вашу "Лейку", спасибо". Оказывается, они приехали что-нибудь у нас узнать, но когда они вышли из машины, коммунары увидели „Лейку" последнего выпуска с какими-то приспособлениями, какого у нас не делали. За 40 минут они разобрали „Лейку", сняли с нее чертежи, сфотографировали и собрали ее: это способность ориентировки. Ведь, это было очень трудно сделать. Надо было увидеть „Лейку", не только ее взять, надо было собрать специалистов-сборщиков и ничего не испортить - это нужно было так, что[бы] ничего не было заметно, потому что это дипломатическое дело. И это была не боязнь, а представление о чести своего коллектива".
When Anton Semenovich some time already served in the commune of Dzerzhinsky, he had the idea to establish a factory, and he decided to consult with children. "Let us make machine guns," - suggested a boy. "Good idea - responded Makarenko, and continued: - But we have so many girls. They will not be able to carry heavy parts." When all is silent, suddenly emerged from the crowd photographer and began shooting. "What if we will make cameras?" - Suggested another boy - and got a point. Makarenko already negotiated with the German firm, which they subsequently bought the rights to manufacture cameras "FED" (Felix Edmundovich Dzerzhinsky. - G.H. ) And FED-1 "."
The name "FED-1" - this is a mistake. "FD-1" was a brand electric that the factory was producing commune - a similar product designs on the American firm "Black & Decker" - even before the start of construction pocket cameras "FED" (along the lines of German Chambers "Leica"). On the proposal in the commune of "machine guns" in official biography of Makarenko so far nothing has been known. The same applies to the incredible assertion that Makarenko "negotiated with the German firm." Decision that the "Dzerzhinke" produce electric devices and cameras, was GPU USSR's, "owner" of communes. Its factories produced them without a license. Incidentally, this applies to many other valuable tools, instruments of western production, which at the time were needed pyatiletok country and the USSR issued illegally.
On the technical reconstruction "FEDa" Makarenko of the Moscow Pedagogical School № 1 in summer 1938 (in the report "Principles of political education in the Soviet school") told the following story, which - regardless of its truthfulness - confirms the fact of illegal production of this camera (though in Soviet Collected Works AS Makarenko, it does not exist): "We arrived German delegation. I call on the phone, so I was cautious, because this delegation was clearly fascist. brigadier and I have told them that the delegation suspicious. At another day the machine arrived, there were 20 people. Dezhurny foreman met and invited guests and then whispered to me: "excellence in their shops at the forty-minutes, then explain." And all showed except secret shops, and in general was cautious. After forty minutes brought them into the street to the car, with me Communards and the Germans said: "Take your Leica, thank you". It turns out they come up with something we know, but when they came out of the car, the Communards saw the latest model of Leica with some attachment devices, which we have not been making. For 40 minutes Communards reviewed the "Leica", had left with their drawings, photographed and assembled her exactly the way it was before. After all, it was very difficult to do. We have to be seen "Leica", not only to take it, it was necessary for specialists and camera makers not to spoil anything - it had to be so, that nothing would be noticeable, because it's a diplomatic matter. And it was not fear, but of the honour of his team.
Source: http://zt1.narod.ru/vydumki.htm
Vlad |
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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Aug 04 2008 : 03:54:46 AM
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Really thanks, Vlad!
I am not sure to understand all and well. But the cooperation between Germany and USSR was a fact after WW1 and reinforced by the treaty of Rapallo (1922).
Sure that if we have a close look at the dates, the Fed 1 probably couldn't have been built so fast without an external aid, or at least a cooperation...
- april 1932: the first Leica II,
- june 1932: decision to build a Leica type camera,
- october 26th 1932: the first copies of the Leica I (A),
- 1933: a new factory is built, tools and machine tools are created, 30 models of preserie are produced,
- january 1934: the production of the Fed 1a begins.
I'm not familiar with industry, but it looks incredible if we think of the necessary precision of tools, for example. Even if the quality of the Fed 1a was not the one of Leicas: we have just seen that in that thread! Exactly in the same years, Zeiss will have big problems with its Ia which will be fixed only four years after with the II...
Stephan Rothery's article says all that much better than me:
http://sovietcamera.110mb.com/fed1/
Amitiés. Jacques. |
Edited by - Jacques M. on Aug 04 2008 04:22:01 AM |
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James McGee
James McGee
Azerbaijan
192 Posts |
Posted - Aug 05 2008 : 03:00:06 AM
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Hi Everyone,
So the Leica II could have come after VOOMP and FAG? It's a nice thought, but I think unlikely! It would be nice if it were true, and would certainly cause a storm in the Leica community. No longer would collectors of the Leica be able to look down on us collectors of Soviet photo equipment.
In an earlier post Jacques pointed out two Fed-1-S cameras for sale with Fed-1-a serial numbers, (3909 and 4586) these are both in the Wiki catalogue.
I don't know what thoughts other forum members have, but to my mind these two cameras have been changed by someone since they left the factory. These serial numbers belong to a standard Fed-1 camera, not a Fed-1-S. Any other thoughts?
Best wishes, Jim
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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Aug 05 2008 : 06:48:01 AM
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Hi Jim and all!
I don't go so far as that, Jim! And it would be too beautiful if the Leica community (to which I belong too!) could consider us with respect! But to be more serious, I really think that there were at that times diplomatic and industrial co-operations between Germany and Russia... Nothing political, of course: "eyes wide shut"! BTW, I would be very interested to have a clear translation of the third paragraph I am not sure to understand perfectly. If somebody....
If we come back to our oddities, I agree with you, Jim. The numbers before 55000 cannot belong to S-s which were not made before. So all numbers before 55000 seem illegitimate.
However, I have examined closely the 2013 which belongs to one of my friends and it is a perfect S 1c. Amongst the other ones (Bill's new entry in the Wiki), the strangest is probably the 1B serial # 25949 of DVD, which seems to be a 1d!
We have perhaps found an explanation for the 1b/1a. It seems we have now to generalize our proceedings, to go from Newton to Einstein, in other words! Of course, these cameras (the strange S-s) can simply be re-constructions... But in that case, why these non matching numbers??
Amitiés. Jacques.
Edit to add "the strange S-s between brackets. |
Edited by - Jacques M. on Aug 05 2008 11:58:53 AM |
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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
973 Posts
My Collection
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James McGee
James McGee
Azerbaijan
192 Posts |
Posted - Aug 05 2008 : 07:49:35 AM
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Hello everyone,
This numbering anamoly seems to be growing into the 1c, and perhaps even the the Fed-S, though I can't imagine that the Fed factory would have replaced a standard Fed-1 with a Fed-S.
Jacques has now mentioned a Fed-1-c owned by a friend and having the serial number 2013. Aidas has brought another Fed-1-c to our attention with the number 1653, but in fairness to the seller of this camera he does say that the serial number belongs to an earlier model of Fed-1.
As for me I'm more confused than ever! I still believe that the Fed-1-b cameras with a Fed-1-a numbers are direct factory replacements.
With the later cameras, I suppose it's possible that Fed could have replaced these also, but somehow I don't think so.
One thing that worries me slightly is that a fairly high proportion of these cameras seem to come from just one or two sources.
Best wishes as always, Jim |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Aug 05 2008 : 11:57:28 AM
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Hi all,
I know that the two cameras I have, with this type of numbering, do not look to have been re-engraved and they came from a different source, so I would not worry about the authenticity of them in general.
I can't see the details of the top close enough on the DVD FED-1S and DVD FED-1B (it would actually not be FED-1S & B, as FED-1B had 1000th speed also) cameras to tell if they are authentic, but originally in my notes I had written that one or both may be fakes. Hard to tell with many of his camera because he has a habit of darkening in the engraved lettering with black paint!
I can believe that these were probably factory replacements and that they went on replacing the early models that couldn't be or were difficult to fix, even until 1941. I can also imagine, that if a person wanted a FED-1S as the replacement, as of course many photographers would, it would be an option if more money was paid and the camera was available in stock (still un-engraved), or if you were willing to wait for one to be made. Also, it seems that the FED Zavod did not actually give different serial numbers to the FED-1S cameras, even though they were different and were designated as different on the passports. The serial numbers were mixed in with the other regular FED-1 cameras.
Remember, to us an early FED is a rare and valuable thing, but to them (both user and factory) it was the inferior, crudely made, outdated version, and a new improved one would be much better.
Possibly I can also imagine that FED owners with political, professional, or social importance could make an exchange for a better model without the camera even being broken ... maybe this is another idea why these cameras exist, but not in the large numbers that you would think they would if they were just replacements for early broken cameras! This would be a way to upgrade without paying! Something maybe to think about also.
Regards, Bill
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Guido Studer
Guido
Switzerland
362 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Aug 05 2008 : 4:04:13 PM
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Dear friends
First of all, I don't know nothing about FED. Beside from the FED-Zorki's certainly ... ;-)
Today I talked to someone who knows about the history of Leica cameras and he told me that it was very usual to upgrade older Leica's to newer versions. So you can find some Leica IIIf with Leica I serial numbers. This service was made at Leitz in Wetzlar/Germany to the fifties or sixties and some of the bodies was reengraved with the old numbers if the top was changed. I don't know if it helps, but maybe the same thing was made by FED in the years in question?
Best wishes - Guido
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James McGee
James McGee
Azerbaijan
192 Posts |
Posted - Aug 05 2008 : 11:21:20 PM
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Hello everyone,
Bill, your idea that some faulty, (or maybe not faulty) early Fed-1 cameras were upgraded to Fed-1-S does seem reasonable and the most likely explaination, especially if the owners were influential in the "party". I can imagine this happening. A Fed-1-S would not have been available when the original camera was purchased, (or presented in some cases). Of course it's only natural that the owner would want the latest and best version available at the time. Guido's comments that Leica had a similar practice of replacing cameras with a re-engraved new camera would seem to support this idea despite the fact that Leica were and of course still are German. I'm sure that both Fed and Leica would have been well aware of the activities and policies of each other at that particular time, and perhaps there was some unspoken competition between the two.
So when given some thought it does seem reasonable that some Fed-1-S cameras with a Fed-1-a serial number could legitimally exist.
I'm still slightly worried that so many of these cameras are coming from just one or two sources. I'm also aware that most of the cameras that we have between us which have an earlier serial number than the model would suggest didn't come from these sources, and there is no doubt in my mind that our cameras are perfectly honest and genuine.
My camera number 4875 is an early Fed-1-b and would in any event have had a low serial number, so there wouldn't have been any point in changing it to a slightly lower number than it would have had anyway. So in my case I think that the camera is a factory replacement for Fed-1-a number 4875, which must have failed within a short time after being sold, and replaced within a few months.
I'm sure that this applies to all our cameras showing the same anomaly, they would all have been replaced at various times depending on when they failed.
So I think we have already gone a long way towards solving this mystery, but it would be nice if we could find some defintive supporting evidence. Perhaps Vlad will be successful!
Best wishes to all, Jim
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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Aug 06 2008 : 04:44:28 AM
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Hello!
Guido is right, Leitz upgraded their Leicas up to the early sixties. And thanks to that possibility, we can see cameras that never existed: for example a I upgraded in IIIf (belongs to a friend). But it was very expensive and spare parts and skilled workers were needed. I'm not sure that Fed could have met these three conditions at those times... Or perhaps only in some very special cases.
I think the general scenery is as follows:
-replacement of non working 1a-s (warranty) by 1b-s with old engraved number,
-possibility to exchange a 1b (and perhaps after, but we cannot see it) against an S with money more. Old engraved numbers always: the Plan!.
As you see, nothing new!
Amitiés. Jacques. |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - Feb 26 2016 : 8:41:33 PM
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Late to the party ...
but #3227 is listed in the wiki for the unusual serials and for the original serials. I guess the entry in the unusual serials is wrong since it might have screws on the box. If someone could confirm this we can delete this mistake.
And how about #2969, shouldn't it belong to the unusual serials since it has 1b-lettering and also a much later lens? #2313 with a later lens should also be in question. |
Edited by - Lenny on Feb 27 2016 04:11:48 AM |
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Fed-1A or 1B?
