Late Zorki 1a or early Zorki 1b?

Today a very interesting camera arrived here. It's a late Zorki 1a or early 1b. Serial number is 09496. The camera is interesting because it has the speed dial of a Zorki 1a (FED-Zorki type) but the release collar of a Zorki 1b. So it seems to be an in-between-model of both types. Aidas site shows a model that is near to this but different, because it has the collar of the 1a and the speed dial of a 1b :-)

I think everything is original, the camera looks as it was never opened before and as it was build yesterday. It's really amazing, I have never seen such an early camera in such a good state. Everything feels and works like new, it cocks and releases totally smooth. Even the shutter curtains look as they were from yesterday.

It was described as non working (shutter broken) and it doesn't work at all when it arrives. During disassembling it I found a washer that does not belong to the camera and that sits between the gears. So maybe it was delivered broken from the factory or the washer felt inside very early and makes the camera non working.

The lens is a late Industar 22 "Zorki" with the newer aperture ring. It also comes with a Zorki yellow filter, which I have never seen before and the nice Zorki lens cap.

Here are some pictures:

http://ritzelkiste.de/ussrphoto/zorki1ab01.jpg

http://ritzelkiste.de/ussrphoto/zorki1ab02.jpg

http://ritzelkiste.de/ussrphoto/zorki1ab03.jpg

http://ritzelkiste.de/ussrphoto/zorki1ab04.jpg

http://ritzelkiste.de/ussrphoto/zorki1ab05.jpg

Ulrich

http://fotos.cconin.de

Jacques,

I saw in the "just arrived in my collection" thread that you are waiting for a similar Zorki (s/n 11072). Have you got it? What about the nuts around the tension springs? Are they FED type with two slits like mine or already Zorki style with 4 slits?

Ulrich

http://fotos.cconin.de

Hi Ulrich!

Very happy to meet you again!
You put a good question: when a 1a begins to be a 1b?
By the Princelle, it's the release button which changes: Fed/Fed-Zorki type for the 1a, and Zorki type (with the cup) for the 1b.

In fact, why not: the "cup" is (with the speed dial) the first external feature which is typical for Zorkis.

As for my s/n 11072, it has four slot knobs, so it is on the side of Zorkis 1b.

We could use your thread to point the gradual differences between Fed-Zorkis and Zorki 1b:
- paint: shining or crisp,
- release button: cup or not,
- knobs to regulate shutters: two or four slots,
- speeds: 1/500th or 1/1000th,
- shape of the cover,
- lenses...
and at which serial numbers they occurred.

Your Zorki 1a looks new, Ulrich! Congrats... It's not easy to get such a camera.

Amitiés. Jacques.

Jacques,

thanks, yes, the camera has only a very few signs of use, looks like tested with one roll of film and then the shutter blocks or something like this.

There are more points for the difference between FED-Zorki/1a and 1b:
- The style of the winding and rewinding knob. On FED-Zorki and 1a it is finer, on 1b it's the more coars milling.
- The sound of the shutter. My FED-Zorki, the 1a with serial 06760 I own and this one sound all equal, like a FED. My earliest 1b, serial 17xxx, sounds like a Zorki sounds :-)

As you can see on mine the winding knob has finer milling, the rewind knob is the normal coarser style. It seems to be a mix of parts before the normal 1b was released. If the camera was not in that new and untouched shape I would say that someone mixes parts, but here we can say that the parts were mixed by factory. So it was a sneaking process to move from one model to another.

I think the paint (shining or crisp) is not an indicator, my Zorki 1b with serial 17xxx has the crisp paint but is a "real" Zorki 1b. On the other hand my FED-Zorki has the shining paint on the shutter (I remember, we've had that discussion in a thread about the FED-Zorki some years ago).

The shape of the cover, I think I have seen later ones (about serial 12xxx) with the 1a style.

I think the shutter sound, the release button and the nuts to regulate the shutter are a good indicator to distinguish a FED-Zorki/1a from later Zorkis. Only FEDs have the round collar around the release button and the two slottet nuts (and in my opinion a Zorki 1a is a FED(-Zorki).

So, can we say if the camera hast 4 slotted nuts and the cup style release button it is a Zorki, otherwise it's a FED made by KMZ?

Ulrich

http://fotos.cconin.de

Hello Ulrich and Jacques

I am compiling a list of Zorki / I-22 lens combinations and would like to add your 3OPKNN lens numbers, if you advise.

My Z-1b is s/n 11490 which came to me with a KOMZ I-22 s/n 24416. It has the early smooth shape cover, four slot knobs, threaded/cup release button, 1/500th speeds with smaller diameter dial with rounder engraving on the numbers.

From my data I can see that engraving on the top cover is the difference from FED-Zorki to Z-1a and that the change to Z-1b starts with threaded/cup release knob at approx. s/n 9000. (I cannot comment on the internals of the cameras).

Cheers
Geoff

Hi Geoff,

this Zorki has serial 09496, the "Zorki" lens has serial 7497. My Zorki 1a with serial 06760 has a "Zorki" lens with serial 6481.

Ulrich

http://fotos.cconin.de

Thank you Ulrich

Can I assume that 6481 has a flat ring on the front?

It is hard to be definitive when dating these Zorkis because as you say, there is a continual "sneaking process" (I like that phrase :))

Cheers
Geoff

Hi Geoff,

the earlier lens has a FED (Leica) style aperture ring and a FED style lock knob, on the later one the aperture ring and lock knob are shaped like on the regular I-22 lenses.

Ulrich

http://fotos.cconin.de

Congratulations Ulrich,
what a great find. It's amazing, the shutter might not have worked for over 60 years and the opening curtain rolled on the small drum doesn't have waves after keeping in that position for decades. Or was this Zorki cocked all the time and only the closing curtain was rolled on the big drum?

Which country did it came from? It might be sold in that country when it was new. It's also interesting to know if these early Zorkis were exported. Russia intended to keep the FED for the domestic market and The Zorki for export, but did they really do that in this early stage.

Lenny, thanks. It was cocked when it arrives here and could not be released. So I also think that it was in this position for over 60 years and that might be the reason why the opening curtain is in good shape.

I have asked the german seller if he knows more about the camera but he doesn't know anything. He told me that he has bought this camera with a lot of others on an auction market.

Ulrich

http://fotos.cconin.de

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by uwittehh</i>
<br />The camera is interesting because it has the speed dial of a Zorki 1a (FED-Zorki type) but the release collar of a Zorki 1b. So it seems to be an in-between-model of both types. Aidas site shows a model that is near to this but different, because it has the collar of the 1a and the speed dial of a 1b :-)

I have never seen such an early camera in such a good state.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You mean the #09314 on sovietcams, which has an older shutter-knob and rewind-knob, but younger speed-dial and 4-sided tension-setting-screws than your #09496. I never saw a younger Zorki with 2-sided tension-setting-screws.

A good indicator for the usage are the friction-marks on the film-pressure-plate.

About the two sided screws, I had said in another post that my 12xxx and 17xxx Zorkis have them too.
But I don't know where they are. So, perhaps it was a dream? Or I have exchanged them?[:I]

Sure it would be good we try to know better the limits.
So, for my 11072 Zorki 1b:
- new shutter release,
- old 1a (or Fed-Zorki)speed dial,
- four sided bolts.

My 06337 Zorki is a 1a and only a 1a. Both have crisp paint on the shutter cage and the 1/500th.

Jacques.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jacques M.</i>
<br />- shutter release,
- speed dial,
- four sided bolts.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hi Jacques,
and all these parts can be exchanged. Are the 2-sided nuts Zorki used really the same as the Fed ones? Maybe I will check my cams the next days.
Ulrich is right, the sound could better determine the version. What else is different on the Zorki-1b shutter that makes a different sound?

The film pressure plate is of round FED style and made of brass or copper. The are only few signs of use on it.

What makes the sound different? That's a good question. Maybe it is the constuction of the shutter body itself? FEDs are made of riveted metal sheet, the later Zorkis are made of alloy die casting. I think this makes the sound difference.

Ulrich

http://fotos.cconin.de