Helios 44 s/n

Hello!

I have seen lately an Helios 44 M42 with 5002478 as serial number.
I thought that this lens had been produced from 1960 with a s/n beginning by one or several "0" for the préséries?

So, how are they numbered?

Thanks! Jacques.

Well... I have found again the lens and I have just bought it to know how it is like. As I plan to buy a Zenit...
And I have found too http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/lenses/helios-44.html

Some hours' work now to translate all that![:)]

Jacques.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jacques M.</i>
<br />I have seen lately an Helios 44 M42 with 5002478 as serial number.
I thought that this lens had been produced from 1960 with a s/n beginning by one or several "0" for the préséries?

So, how are they numbered?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hi Jacques,
I was little bit interested in Helios some years ago,
maybe this site can help little bit.
http://forum.mflenses.com/complete-list-of-helios-lenses-getting-closer-t26100.html

First I would say 7-digits s/n is right, but preseries should be M39,
maybe the first "5" means 1965, I'm not sure now, after some years,
but these locking-rings are easily changable.

Thanks for the link, Lenny.
So, I know that this Helios 44 was made by MMZ in 1965: you were right.

The Helios(es) are a world in themselves....

Amitiés. Jacques.

Hi Jacques,

Your lens was made during the first year of production in MMZ.

Some very early MMZ have KMZ logo since KMZ sent to MMZ some non-finished copy to help MMZ to get used to machines, etc..
The lenses were finished in MMZ, that's why they engraved their SN on the nameplate produced in KMZ.
Here is one exemplar :

https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9744/18405597.21/0_100f0e_632afd42_L

Thanks for the details, moxies!
If I go on with SLRs, I will need help!

Amitiés. Jacques.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jacques M.</i>
<br />Hello!
I have seen lately an Helios 44 M42 with 5002478 as serial number.
...
So, how are they numbered?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
See this page: http://www.zenitcamera.com/qa/qa-serialnumbers.html
Your lens with s/n 5002478 was made in 1965 year.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Zoom</i>
See this page: http://www.zenitcamera.com/qa/qa-serialnumbers.html
Your lens with s/n 5002478 was made in 1965 year.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thank you for the link Zoom, I missed this webpage. One correction though regarding the statement for 50 Year KMZ Anniversary Zenit-122: (and sorry to hijack this post, Jacques)

"&#1042; 1992 &#1075;&#1086;&#1076;&#1091; &#1073;&#1099;&#1083;&#1072; &#1074;&#1099;&#1087;&#1091;&#1097;&#1077;&#1085;&#1072; &#1085;&#1077;&#1073;&#1086;&#1083;&#1100;&#1096;&#1072;&#1103; &#1087;&#1072;&#1088;&#1090;&#1080;&#1103; &#1074; 300 &#1096;&#1090;&#1091;&#1082; &#1102;&#1073;&#1080;&#1083;&#1077;&#1081;&#1085;&#1099;&#1093; &#1092;&#1086;&#1090;&#1086;&#1072;&#1087;&#1087;&#1072;&#1088;&#1072;&#1090;&#1086;&#1074; &#1047;&#1045;&#1053;&#1048;&#1058;-122 «50 &#1083;&#1077;&#1090; &#1050;&#1052;&#1047;». &#1059; &#1101;&#1090;&#1080;&#1093; &#1082;&#1072;&#1084;&#1077;&#1088; &#1085;&#1091;&#1084;&#1077;&#1088;&#1072;&#1094;&#1080;&#1103; &#1080;&#1084;&#1077;&#1083;&#1072; &#1074;&#1080;&#1076;: 50920&#1053;&#1053;&#1053;, &#1075;&#1076;&#1077; 50 — 50 &#1083;&#1077;&#1090;, 92 — &#1102;&#1073;&#1080;&#1083;&#1077;&#1081;&#1085;&#1099;&#1081; &#1075;&#1086;&#1076; &#1074;&#1099;&#1087;&#1091;&#1089;&#1082;&#1072;. &#1042; 1993–1994 &#1075;&#1086;&#1076;&#1072;&#1093; &#1074;&#1099;&#1087;&#1091;&#1089;&#1082; &#1101;&#1090;&#1080;&#1093; &#1082;&#1072;&#1084;&#1077;&#1088; &#1073;&#1099;&#1083; &#1087;&#1088;&#1086;&#1076;&#1086;&#1083;&#1078;&#1077;&#1085;, &#1086;&#1076;&#1085;&#1072;&#1082;&#1086; &#1075;&#1086;&#1076; &#1074;&#1099;&#1087;&#1091;&#1089;&#1082;&#1072; &#1091;&#1082;&#1072;&#1079;&#1099;&#1074;&#1072;&#1083;&#1089;&#1103; &#1090;&#1086;&#1090; &#1078;&#1077; — 1992, &#1090;.&#1077;. &#1074;&#1080;&#1076; &#1074;&#1086;&#1089;&#1100;&#1084;&#1080;&#1079;&#1085;&#1072;&#1095;&#1085;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1089;&#1077;&#1088;&#1080;&#1081;&#1085;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1085;&#1086;&#1084;&#1077;&#1088;&#1072; &#1092;&#1072;&#1082;&#1090;&#1080;&#1095;&#1077;&#1089;&#1082;&#1080; &#1085;&#1077; &#1080;&#1079;&#1084;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1083;&#1089;&#1103;: 5092&#1053;&#1053;&#1053;&#1053;."

This says that these all had 5092XXXXX prefix for the year and as we know the first batch just 92XXXXX based on my example. Maybe correction is in order [;)]

Cheers,
Vlad.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Vlad</i>
<br />Maybe correction is in order
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

There are always examples when they just forgot to engrave 1 or 2 digits. We can find these mistakes easily. There might be even cameras with the same serial number only because they made a mistake.

In this case for the Zenit-122 the serial number wasn't engraved by hand but it was unusual to start with "50" for anniversary. I wish Zoom could tell us more in detail about serials.

Just received this Helios 44.
I am not accustomed with these lenses and I am a bit surprised by its weight and bulkiness, compared to my M39 rangefinder lenses.
Having the complete collection of Zenits is certainly an affair of quintals!

Now, I have to chose a 1965 body to put behind.

Amitiés. Jacques.

There is not much to choose from in 1965, you will only find Zenit-3M, but I'm not sure if MMZ made them too in that year. A 3M from KMZ shouldn't be so difficult to find.

Thanks, Lenny, I do know!

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Vlad</i>
<br />This says that these all had 5092XXXXX prefix for the year...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
This page is only about the serial numbering principles, not about the numbering of specific lenses.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Vlad</i>
<br />...and as we know the first batch just 92XXXXX based on my example.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
See this note: http://www.zenitcamera.com/qa/qa-serialnumbers.html#n4
Sorry, the camera from your example is not one from the first exclusive batch...

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Zoom</i>
<br />
See this note: http://www.zenitcamera.com/qa/qa-serialnumbers.html
&#1057;&#1083;&#1086;&#1074;&#1086; «&#1087;&#1086;&#1088;&#1103;&#1076;&#1082;&#1086;&#1074;&#1099;&#1081;» &#1085;&#1077; &#1085;&#1072;&#1076;&#1086; &#1087;&#1086;&#1085;&#1080;&#1084;&#1072;&#1090;&#1100; &#1073;&#1091;&#1082;&#1074;&#1072;&#1083;&#1100;&#1085;&#1086;, &#1090;.&#1077;.: «&#1085;&#1072;&#1095;&#1080;&#1085;&#1072;&#1103; &#1089; &#1077;&#1076;&#1080;&#1085;&#1080;&#1094;&#1099;, &#1089; &#1080;&#1085;&#1082;&#1088;&#1077;&#1084;&#1077;&#1085;&#1090;&#1086;&#1084; &#1074; 1», &#1073;&#1077;&#1079; &#1087;&#1088;&#1086;&#1087;&#1091;&#1089;&#1082;&#1086;&#1074;. &#1057;&#1077;&#1088;&#1080;&#1081;&#1085;&#1099;&#1081; &#1085;&#1086;&#1084;&#1077;&#1088; &#1087;&#1088;&#1077;&#1076;&#1085;&#1072;&#1079;&#1085;&#1072;&#1095;&#1072;&#1077;&#1090;&#1089;&#1103; &#1076;&#1083;&#1103; &#1087;&#1088;&#1086;&#1080;&#1079;&#1074;&#1086;&#1076;&#1089;&#1090;&#1074;&#1077;&#1085;&#1085;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1082;&#1086;&#1085;&#1090;&#1088;&#1086;&#1083;&#1103; &#1080; &#1087;&#1086;&#1090;&#1086;&#1084;&#1091; &#1077;&#1076;&#1080;&#1085;&#1089;&#1090;&#1074;&#1077;&#1085;&#1085;&#1086;&#1077; &#1090;&#1088;&#1077;&#1073;&#1086;&#1074;&#1072;&#1085;&#1080;&#1077; &#1082; &#1085;&#1077;&#1084;&#1091;: &#1091;&#1085;&#1080;&#1082;&#1072;&#1083;&#1100;&#1085;&#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1100; &#1076;&#1083;&#1103; &#1076;&#1072;&#1085;&#1085;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1080;&#1079;&#1076;&#1077;&#1083;&#1080;&#1103;. &#1042; &#1088;&#1103;&#1076;&#1072;&#1093; &#1089;&#1077;&#1088;&#1080;&#1081;&#1085;&#1099;&#1093; &#1085;&#1086;&#1084;&#1077;&#1088;&#1086;&#1074; &#1086;&#1073;&#1099;&#1095;&#1085;&#1099; &#1084;&#1085;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086;&#1095;&#1080;&#1089;&#1083;&#1077;&#1085;&#1085;&#1099;&#1077; &#1087;&#1088;&#1086;&#1073;&#1077;&#1083;&#1099;, &#1074;&#1099;&#1079;&#1074;&#1072;&#1085;&#1085;&#1099;&#1077; &#1088;&#1072;&#1079;&#1083;&#1080;&#1095;&#1085;&#1099;&#1084;&#1080; &#1087;&#1088;&#1080;&#1095;&#1080;&#1085;&#1072;&#1084;&#1080;, &#1080; &#1085;&#1077;&#1089;&#1086;&#1086;&#1090;&#1074;&#1077;&#1090;&#1089;&#1090;&#1074;&#1080;&#1077;, &#1080;&#1085;&#1086;&#1075;&#1076;&#1072; &#1079;&#1085;&#1072;&#1095;&#1080;&#1090;&#1077;&#1083;&#1100;&#1085;&#1086;&#1077;, &#1084;&#1072;&#1082;&#1089;&#1080;&#1084;&#1072;&#1083;&#1100;&#1085;&#1099;&#1093; &#1089;&#1077;&#1088;&#1080;&#1081;&#1085;&#1099;&#1093; &#1085;&#1086;&#1084;&#1077;&#1088;&#1086;&#1074; &#1082;&#1086;&#1083;&#1080;&#1095;&#1077;&#1089;&#1090;&#1074;&#1091; &#1074;&#1099;&#1087;&#1091;&#1097;&#1077;&#1085;&#1085;&#1099;&#1093; &#1080;&#1079;&#1076;&#1077;&#1083;&#1080;&#1081; &#1074; &#1090;&#1086;&#1090; &#1080;&#1083;&#1080; &#1080;&#1085;&#1086;&#1081; &#1075;&#1086;&#1076;.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hello Zoom,

please tell us more about these gaps in serial numbers. Can you give some examples of these gaps? I'm interested in the time before 1960.

Thanks Lenny

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Lenny</i>
<br />... please tell us more about these gaps in serial numbers. Can you give some examples of these gaps? ...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Hmmm... I do not know what to add to what has already been said in that text...

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Zoom</i>

See this note: http://www.zenitcamera.com/qa/qa-serialnumbers.html#n4
Sorry, the camera from your example is not one from the first exclusive batch...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hi Zoom,

very interesting. When did this information come to light? It seems that there is very little quantity of those cameras then because I have not seen another one yet.. have you? great info, thanks!

Vlad.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Vlad</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Zoom</i>

See this note: http://www.zenitcamera.com/qa/qa-serialnumbers.html#n4
Sorry, the camera from your example is not one from the first exclusive batch...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hi Zoom,

very interesting. When did this information come to light? It seems that there is very little quantity of those cameras then because I have not seen another one yet.. have you? great info, thanks!

Vlad.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I kind of lost the thema of your discussion. What are you talking about? About the 50th birthday edition?

Me too, Moxies![8D]
Vlad, please, could you explain what is in discussion?

Jacques.

I don't understand why KMZ produced cameras in 1993 with serials #5092xxxx, not only some samples, there were 6000 of them. Makes no sense. It's like celebrating my 50ties birthday when I'm already 51. Instead KMZ could have made a special 53-year edition in 1995.

Dear Moxies and Jacques,
I will try to explain what is in discussion. The point is, that the USSR camera production didn't always follow the common known rools for the serial numbers of the cameras. In some years were made some exception, for example due to large batches or some anniversary (such as example with "50 years of KMZ").

Lenny,
you don't understand too much in this forum. Try to understand first the principals of the soviet photo industry and the principals of living in the USSR. This will give you answers to the most of your questions.

Regards, Alexander

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by AlexanderK</i>
<br />
you don't understand too much in this forum. Try to understand first the principals of the soviet photo industry and the principals of living in the USSR. This will give you answers to the most of your questions.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Alexander, you think the #5092xxxx made in 1993 are not an exception from the rule to have two digits as a year prefix? Zoom just showed us the rules on Zenitcamera.com.

In other words, KMZ used the first 2 digit system. Exeption was made for 50th birthday, where they used serial numbers 5092xxxx.
About the large batch, it's true in the early years about Industar-22 only...
It's not that complicated

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Moxies</i>
<br />In other words, KMZ used the first 2 digit system. Exeption was made for 50th birthday, where they used serial numbers 5092xxxx.
About the large batch, it's true in the early years about Industar-22 only...
It's not that complicated
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Of course the first two digits "50" means 50 years, then digits three and four "92" means 1992, not complicated and easy to understand. But to produce all other 6000 cameras according to zenitcamera.com in 1993 with 5092xxxx instead of 5093xxxx is kind of strange, isn't it. Why even bother with a year prefix when it's not the real year. Suddenly a Zorki-1-Yura commemorating Gagarin's spaceflight in 1961 makes sense in the timeline.

But maybe this is only a mistake from zenitcamera.com. They mention that there are discrepancies with their numbers and I noticed some strange numbers too. So everything is Good.

Edit: Or it was not a mistake from zenitcamera.com and those 6000 Zenit-122 were made in December 1992 and sold in 1993. A passport with a late #5092xxxx could be interesting. Is the birthday of KMZ end of the year?

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Lenny</i>
<br /> But to produce all other 6000 cameras according to zenitcamera.com in 1993 with 5092xxxx instead of 5093xxxx is kind of strange, isn't it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
No, Lenny, it is not strange. 5092xxxx was an anniversary batch, it means KMZ was 50 in 1992, that's it and not more. And it does not matter how many cameras were produced for this batch and in wich year, they all belong to the same anniversary batch.

Regards, Alexander

Alexander, the birthday was in Febuary 1992. I think it's extremely strange that 95% of these Cameras left KMZ in 1993 and even in 1994. It seems KMZ couldn't sell them. They must had a storage of 100000 cameras. Sad that there isn't more information from the year 1992. But as I said, zenitcamera.com could be wrong.

Thanks Lenny

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Lenny</i>
<br />I don't understand why KMZ produced cameras in 1993 with serials #5092xxxx, not only some samples, there were 6000 of them. Makes no sense. It's like celebrating my 50ties birthday when I'm already 51. Instead KMZ could have made a special 53-year edition in 1995.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
It's simple: that is an attempt to warm up the demand. And Alexander is right: "5092xxxx was an anniversary batch, it means KMZ was 50 in 1992, that's it and not more."

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Lenny</i>
<br />But as I said, zenitcamera.com could be wrong.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
This is the official data... The source may be wrong, but no other data.
And btw, plant's warehouses are large. ;)

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Zoom</i>
<br />It's simple: that is an attempt to warm up the demand. And Alexander is right: "5092xxxx was an anniversary batch
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks Zoom,

I'm just curious about the situation, how it was in 1992. I think there was not only one batch, because Vlad's serial is different and the highest serial here in the wiki is 50928004, while zentitcamera.com shows an overall production of 6541 cameras.
Could be Vlad's sample belongs to the first 300 sold in 1992, and because it was a success, they produced more cameras later in another batch with 5092xxxx. It's just not worth to produce many cameras to keep in stock for over a year.

I wonder what kind of data you have available. Maybe you have not only the year when they were sold, maybe you have the month or even the day when they were sold. It would be interesting and could help to tell the full story what really happened in 1992, and not only for theses Zenits. Maybe it's possible to offer more detailed data, for example the sellings per month. We would know in which month the first Zorki-C and Zorki-2C was sold. Maybe we could see a gap in time between Fed-Zorkis and Zorki-1a. It's great the data you have available, I wish they were more detailed.

Thanks Lenny

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Lenny</i>
<br />...Vlad's serial is different and the highest serial here in the wiki is 50928004, while zentitcamera.com shows an overall production of 6541 cameras. Could be Vlad's sample belongs to the first 300 sold in 1992, and because it was a success, they produced more cameras later in another batch with 5092xxxx.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
S/n 50920001–50920300 — the first batch (must be). That were the real exclusive cameras: gift items. They had a different package and user manuals (I know about the English and French variants).
S/n, for example(!), 50921001–50927000 — the second batch (1993 year).
S/n, for example(!), 50928000–50928250 — 1994 year production.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Lenny</i>
<br />...It's just not worth to produce many cameras to keep in stock for over a year.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I do not see any problems...

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Lenny</i>
<br />I wonder what kind of data you have available.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Unfortunately, almost no documents survived. Documentation for single orders is not stored for more than five years.
All that I am able to find, I try to publish on the site... (Sorry, site is only in Russian: I'm in trouble with written English. For example, I am absolutely confused in the articles and times of verbs. :( I am not even sure that you understand this text...)

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Zoom</i>
<br />S/n 50920001–50920300 — the first batch (must be). That were the real exclusive cameras: gift items. They had a different package and user manuals (I know about the English and French variants).
S/n, for example(!), 50921001–50927000 — the second batch (1993 year).
S/n, for example(!), 50928000–50928250 — 1994 year production.

Unfortunately, almost no documents survived. Documentation for single orders is not stored for more than five years.
All that I am able to find, I try to publish on the site... (Sorry, site is only in Russian: I'm in trouble with written English. For example, I am absolutely confused in the articles and times of verbs. :( I am not even sure that you understand this text...)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thank you so much Zoom,

that's very interesting. As I thought there was not only one batch and you even know the range of them.

Sure I can understand you, your english is very good. It's ok if you write zenitcamera.com only in russian. Google translates it directly to me in a way which I can understand, even some words give a different meaning. All these data is very interesting to me. I recognized when you discovered 10 more Zorki-1 for 1949. And some time ago you changed the total of Zorki-2 to 10310. Writing in russian on zenitcamera.com will save you time, that's good. Please keep up this good work, there is no other who can do this. Please try to save this data forever. There will be a time when you can't do it anymore and everything else is lost. Please try so write more about batches, for some special periods, for example Fed-Zorki and Zorki-1a, early Zorki-C and early Zorki-2C and others. Thank you so much, I appreciate your good work

Lenny