FED-1 (B)

Hi to all.

I received a really nice FED-1 PE0215 (based on Sovietcams website). The camera is in great shape, looks very close to mint in my opinion. However, I will be glad if you share some of your knowledge with me about the following:
- The lens doesn't come off easily (I didn't force it to be removed yet). Is it in a correct position?
- When I was reading the Sovietcams site I spotted the lenses are screwed to a different angles on the Feds shown there. Is it normal that the position vary so much?
- What's your opinion: should I leave the lens on the camera as is or should I try to remove it?
- Is the case correct one for the camera? The logo seems more modern than it should be.
- I'm not aware of FED-1 having diopter correction, however, the view through the viewfinder seems to be unsharp. Not dimmed, but slightly unsharp. Rangefinder works great.

Thank you for your input!

http://shrani.si/f/W/V9/3x2vOGny/dsc6493.jpg

http://shrani.si/f/31/HB/jmcpu4g/dsc6495.jpg

http://shrani.si/f/28/of/200PoQAg/dsc6496.jpg

http://shrani.si/f/2o/OG/1SybP2BE/dsc6500.jpg

http://shrani.si/f/n/a5/28GeLYIi/dsc6503.jpg

http://shrani.si/f/1V/Z/4AHmG4do/dsc6506.jpg

Hello!

A beautiful Fed 1b! And fine photos!
Your 1b belongs to the last series with the special vulcanite. The tip of the rangefinder has always a block shape (but you have to remove the lens to check it) and certainly the bottom screw is always there too.

You should succeed in removing the lens. If you force (gently!) and it doesn't come, try to put a tenth of drop of WD 40 (for example) between the two plates (lens and camera ones), check the locking srew (at 11 o'clock on your lens) and try again. I have tens of prewar Fed 1, and none of them resist.

Certainly, your actual lens is not a good one: as far as I know, the position of the infinity should always be between 7 and 11 o'clock. No problem to shoot, but it's not so comfortable when your finger crosses the finder!

I think too that the bag is a later one. As for the viewfinder, probably a good cleaning of the inside would be necessary. I prefer keeping my cameras as they come to me (except if I plan to use them), but everybody does as he wants!

Amitiés. Jacques.

Thank you, Jacques.

I removed the lens without too much force and there is serial number engraved on the back side of the flange. The lens is the correct one for the camera, right? Could it be the one that the camera originally was sold with?

On the camera mount there is a small cut visible - like a marking. It is visible on the third photo between 2 and 2,5 m markings. Does this mark indicate how the mount should be oriented? Is it in the correct place? I think it is since the recession is made in the rim for a screw on the top to not hit the rim, however, if the mount was rotated quarter of turn the lens would end in a correct position. What could be the reason that the lens doesn't screw correctly? It's totally tight otherwise and easily screwed now.

Thanks again for your thoughts.

A very fine looking late FED1b!

Anyone noticed the collar around the release knob?
I've never seen one shaped like this on a FED1. The (b) models normally have collars with a vertical line pattern. later ones have the diamond-shaped millings. Did I miss something or is it from another camera type?

As for the lens - what's the serial number? I made a thread about the correlation of camera and lens S/N a while ago, checking the wiki entry for FED1b might also help.
http://ussrphoto.com/Wiki/default.asp?WikiCatID=98&ParentID=1&ContentID=66&Item=FED+1b

It seems that originally the camera and lens S/N were supposed to be within the same range.

If you find the time please provide a picture of the camera with the lens removed so we can have a look at the shape of the rangefinder tip. A pic from below with the base plate removed can also reveal some interesting details.

The leather bag is the one with 2 buttons on the backside, right?
I've got one with a FED1a but I also believe it is of later (maybe post-war) origin. However I don't think anyone has really looked into the evolution of FED1 camera bags yet.

Regards,
Chris

In these numbers, the serial number of the lens (the number on the back side) follows more or less the one of the camera. For a camera in the 45xxx, the lens can be in the 45/5xxxx. But it's only what I have observed, not a rule. Anyway, the position of the infinity position is too far from the 7/11 o'clock, as it shoud be. So, I think your lens is probably not original. BTW, what is its serial number?

The small cut on the camera must be at 9 o'clock: it's a mark for mounting the lens plate. You cannot turn it because of the recess which gives place to the cover.

As for the collar of the release knob, you are completely right, Chris (hello!). Sure it comes from another series. I never saw such a collar on a Fed or Zorki.

Amitiés. Jacques.

Congrats! A nice FED 1B. Looks really good for the age.

As others said, the release collar seems to be from another camera. The lens seems not to be original, I have seen some of the early FEDs with a later lens. On earlier FEDs the lens and the lens mount fit perfectly together. Often they cannot be exchanged, and if you do so, you will see that the lens does not fit, like on your FED.

The bag seems to be a newer one, post war. Early bags may look like these:

http://ritzelkiste.de/ussrphoto/fedbag1.jpg

http://ritzelkiste.de/ussrphoto/fedbag2.jpg

Ulrich

http://fotos.cconin.de

And btw, really nice pictures with the apples in the background ;-)

Ulrich

http://fotos.cconin.de

Thank you all for the replies. I appreciate it.

- I agree with you. The lens seems to not be an original one. Serial number is 119342. Another FED 50 mm lens I have screws on this one exactly the same - infinity mark position isn't where it should be. It seems that the early FEDs have different thread orientation.
- However, the lens has old aperture scale and isn't coated. If the serial number should kind of match the camera, the lens is still prewar based on Sovietcams website (from FED-1 D 1939 or 1940). When did the mount change? Do you have any information about that?
- The shutter collar seems to fit perfectly. It's very comfortable to press the shutter button. Where do you think it comes from? I wish it was original :) Looking at the photos on the Sovietcams site it seems that the collar is often missing.
- The bag has two buttons on the back.

Below are some detailed photos. If you wish for more, let me know. However, I would rather not disassemble the camera :)

The camera was listed on the auction site as a "Leica Zorki with some general engravings". I'm surprised by the smoothness of operation. The shutter timings seems accurate.

http://shrani.si/f/1b/kk/t9XV759/dsc6525.jpg

http://shrani.si/f/1U/jA/1U9putnB/dsc6526.jpg

http://shrani.si/f/10/jg/3U3xAqSv/dsc6530.jpg

http://shrani.si/f/n/Hw/13ukHMw6/dsc6531.jpg

http://shrani.si/f/p/OM/4EKtfOxq/dsc6534.jpg

http://shrani.si/f/3c/KV/1dQVZfok/dsc6537.jpg

http://shrani.si/f/o/q6/4xmO2vgq/dsc6539.jpg

http://shrani.si/f/33/F8/1wlBY238/dsc6542.jpg

All seems normal inside: the shape of the tip of the rangefinder, the bottom screw. And outside, the three screws under the rewind button and the small stop on the accessory shoe. So, all is fine, except the lens.

It seems that lenses and bodies were made by batches. And that a body and a lens were manually appaired, one by one, in the factory (Leitz had standard cameras since 1931). That means, for Fed:

- optically, the register was shimmed with papers under the plate to reach the 28,8mm distance. So, it was the body which was regulated, not the lens. If you change the lens, you must regulate again the body.
- mechanically, the inside 39mm screw (on the camera) and the outside one (on the lens) had to be made so that the position of the button was not too eccentric, to allow the use of the viewfinder.

Little by little, it seems that the lenses found a "normal" position at 8 o'clock. But it's very difficult to say when exactly, because many lenses are not on the right bodies. And it's absolutely impossible to say, nowadays, if the right lens is on the right body. Unless you have the original papers of the factory!

All that for pre war cameras with the ancient scale of diaphs. The normalisation body/lens occurred after the war, then the new scale and the coating appeared. But it's another story. As for your lens, it's evident that its serial number is too far from the bodie's.

Amitiés. Jacques.

Thanks. Does it mean that if I get a lens that is closer by serial number to my body it will have correct position in terms of "infinity mark" location? Or is it pure luck?

Please, take a look at the lens serial number. The character "4" is very strange. Is it 4 or is it some different marking?

For the moment, these lenses always keep a dose of mystery. Certainly, you will have a better chance to have a good position with a lens in the 48/55xxx range. But without guarantee: we don't know in detail how the factory worked.

As for the "4", it's a stamped cipher. Some are often badly marked.

If Chris is always here, probably he could answer your questions more precisely. And you could have a look at http://ussrphoto.com/Forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2353&SearchTerms=fed,lenses
only about S bodies and 2/5cm lenses, if you are interested.

Jacques.

Hi. The issue with the infinity mark in the wrong place could be as simple as the lens mount having been screwed onto the camera in the wrong place! Are all your other lenses the same when fitted to the camera? If you remove the lens mount, rotate it 90 degrees and re-screw it on, then your infinity mark should be in the correct place.

Cheers,

Steve

The lens mounts correctly on my FED-2 and the FED-2s lens mounts wrong on the FED-1. Thank you for your suggestion though. It must have been something changed during production cycle of the FED cameras.

The mount flange on the camera is mounted correctly. It can't be rotated since there is a recession in one part that fits screw beneath it.

The truth is, there are still many mysteries regarding these cameras.
My first guess was that generally a lens with a similar serial number will fit better in cosmetic terms (infinity position).

On the other hand, I have several cameras with non-original lenses according to the serial range but all of them fit. Wheter they'd also focus correctly is another question, I have not tried in most cases. Fact is, even completely different lenses could be made to work correctly if they were calibrated to the camera or vice versa. I had this done with my FED-S as especially the 28mm f/4.5 would not focus correctly at infinity.

I ran a little test on the interchangability of FED1 lenses for you, using my early FED(b) #10875 as reference:

<b>Lens s/n __ inf. pos __ inf. on orig __ cam s/n __ match</b>
-10631(orig.)____4_________4________10875_____Y
-23727_________2_________3_________6368_____Y
-99697________11_________3________60570_____N
129581________11_________2_______129277_____N
171023_________1_________3_______174186_____Y(?)
180505_______none________4_______179708_____N

<b>inf. pos:</b> clock position of the infinity symbol when used on FED1(b) #10875
<b>inf. pos orig:</b> clock position of the infinity symbol when used on the 'original' camera
<b>cam s/n:</b> serial number of the 'original' camera for this lens

In this case a Fed (b) lens in the 23.XXX range can theoretically match both on a 10.XXX and a 6.XXX camera.
Most later ones that come from d and e models do not, the 180.XXX lens could not be mounted at all.

So I thought interchangability improved with the transition from FED(b) to FED(c), when the S-models appeared, but apparently that's not the case. The lens #99697 can't really be used of FED-S #70348 as the infinity mark is at 12°. On FED-S #69929 it mounts at 3° as usual.
So you see it's kind of a gamble, I haven't been able to come up with some kind of pattern yet. Regardless I'd encourage you to test different lenses and models and report your findings!

In your case, considering that a good 50mm/3.5 should cost around 25-30€ you could always try, the bigger challenge would be finding one in the right serial range.

Regarding the shutter button collar - only (a) models lacked those, the (b) models always have the one with the vertical stripe milling. Still I have no idea where this special one comes from but I know little of cameras other than pre-war FED1. It looks quite professional and not custom made to me. Can it be screwed off? A detailed photo might help.

Jacques, I haven't been around for a while but I will try to update my lens statistics and present some other findings in the coming months. Some new serials were already added to the wiki.

Regards,
Chris

Chris, thank you for your great post!

Your findings regarding lens mounting is very interesting. Unfortunately this is the only FED-1 I own and thus I'm not able to test it like you did.

I have another FED 50 mm F/3.5 lens, but the second is a post war (serial number (if it is serial number at all) is 4851). It's mounted on my FED-2 and the infinity mark is at 2 o'clock. If this lens is mounted to my FED-1, infinity is at 11 o'clock as well.

It looks like the FED-1 set I bought comes from three different periods: the body is genuine 1936 FED-1 B, the lens looks like to be from somewhere 1939/40 and the leather case from fifties. I think so since I have a FED-2 case with the old FED logo - more square shaped.

About 1b-s (not yours, zcetrt!), I think too that we underestimate the number of early bodies which was re-sent to the factory for repair (the owner keeping his lens). And which were replaced by a brand new body with another serial number.

That could explain (partly)the differences we can find between serial numbers. At least when the lens has a s/n of 1a, and the body is a 1b.

Jacques.