Bought another B prefix s/n Kiev 3

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Topic

Topic author: Kievuser

Posted on: 20071225171556

Hi,

I just bought another 'rare' Kiev 3 with s/n B 543224.My other one has a s/n B 542683. How often do you see such a camera? I feel these may be as rare as a no-name Contax, or even rarer.[:D]

Cheers,

Kievuser

Replies

Reply author: fedka

Replied on: 20071225212607

It must be rare comparing to "A" serial numbers, but certainly not THAT rare overall.
I have one B541139 (original box and passport). Well, I thought it was rare, but after reading your posting realized it is not:-)

Reply author: Kievuser

Replied on: 20071226010938

Less than 6,000 no-name Kievs were made, and they are considered 'rare'. But the total production of Kiev III in 1954 must be less than 10,000 cameras for the 4 digit numbering, and much less than half were B prefix cameras. I have two doesn't make them common, but I am lucky.:-))

Reply author: jed

Replied on: 20071226014654

Hello Zhang,

Can you tell us if the film selector is like a german one with 'DIN' ? I own a 1954 kiev 3 with s/n A54XXXXX with that uncommon film selector.

Best,
jed

Reply author: Kievuser

Replied on: 20071226051747

Hi jed,

My four 1954 Kiev III all have GOST on the meter selector, but I have seen a 1954 Kiev III with DIN numbers.
I only noticed that the arrow on the re-wind nob is slant on one of the B prefix K-3. Perhaps these cameras are with some minor defects?

Cheers,

Zhang

Reply author: Michel

Replied on: 20071226053901

Hi all,
I have a Kiev III with:
- s/n A 511347
- selector with DIN
- AND the selector writes "F:" 22,16…
- FEATHERS on the arrow of the rewinding knob.

My other Kiev IIIa :
- s/n 5814964
- selector with GOST
- no "F" before 22,16…
- NO feathers on the arrow.

I do'nt know if this can help ?…

Regards,
Michel.

Reply author: Kievuser

Replied on: 20071226072146

Thanks Michel. I see that mass production of Kiev III started in 1951, not as stated before in 1952. The 'b'prefix still remains a mystery as well as production numbers of each year.

Reply author: jed

Replied on: 20071226112549

Hello Zhang,

I realise my camera s/n is pretty close to yours : A542771

See :

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/681_Kiev3_6.jpg

I don't know the meaning of the A or B prefix. But I'm still searching [:D] 'A' may be stands for 'plant crew A' ?
Best,
Jed

Reply author: jed

Replied on: 20071226113358

A bit fuzzy, I apologies. See the 'DIN' film selector (same camera):

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/Ré-exposition de 681_Kiev3_5.jpg

Reply author: sovietcam

Replied on: 20071226154602

DIN meters are parts from zeiss ikon jena or dresden factory ( also give cameras with top plates from east germany ). various parts were sent from both factory, according down the red army from jena, including the drawings and part of machines, to arsenal for the kiev 3.
there is little data from this time. it is difficult to figure out. i think it has with this 3 factories to be done, because this camera is no original arsenal.

Reply author: sovietcam

Replied on: 20071226160417

the drawings could have been a problem for these deviations. they came in german with russian translation.
another question: the first name was wolga (1946 in a drawing). when did the name kiew?

regards
mike

Reply author: Kievuser

Replied on: 20071226164252

Hello Jed,

Yes, they are very close, only 88 cameras apart. 88 is a very good number for Chinese.[:D]
Your assumption for team A,and B might be right.

Cheers,

Zhang

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by jed
 Hello Zhang,

I realise my camera s/n is pretty close to yours : A542771

...I don't know the meaning of the A or B prefix. But I'm still searching [:D] 'A' may be stands for 'plant crew A' ?
Best,
Jed
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Reply author: jed

Replied on: 20071227134754

Hello all,

I also believe 'DIN' meter is of German manufacture. I hardly imagine the Soviets producing meters with 'DIN' printed. But I have no proof.
'Wolga' was a nice name [:)]
I'm sure we'll find in the near future some new explanations !

All the best,
Jed

Reply author: cedricfan

Replied on: 20071227151845

DIN = Deutsche Industrie Normen = German industrial standards

http://www.cedricfan.sivut.ws/Juhani's%20website%20ORIGINAALIT/

Reply author: sovietcam

Replied on: 20071227163501

juhani, not quite correct.

Deutsches Institut für Normen = German Institute for Standarts

regards

Reply author: mermoz37

Replied on: 20071228061748

for info:

mine is "A 531870" whith DIN, too...

Reply author: jed

Replied on: 20071229025448

Hello,

We may need a 'database' where everyone can quote camera s/n, s/n prefix, front plate and so on !

Best,
jed

Reply author: cedricfan

Replied on: 20071230124458

Again I ask your opinion of value...

I have been offered a Kiev-3 from 1954 and meter is not working as usual, but otherwise OK & pretty good cosmetically, and with case. Is 70 USD too much for one?

http://www.cedricfan.sivut.ws/Juhani's%20website%20ORIGINAALIT/

Reply author: jed

Replied on: 20071230131913

Hello,

That's what I paid for my 1954 Kiev 3 but the meter is ok.
I own Kiev 3 and also a Kiev 3A : both meters are ok and accurate. I think a dead meter will decrease the value of the camera.

best,
Jed

Reply author: Vlad

Replied on: 20071230135815

Yea, that's about the price of it without shipping.. I've seen the Kiev 3 with working meters as Jed said between $65 and $110, without working meter you can offer $50 no more...

Vlad

Reply author: cedricfan

Replied on: 20080104104833

Mine arrived today:
A 540554 (nice early 554 serial)
And meter is in DIN

http://www.saunalahti.fi/~juhamak/KievIII_2.JPG

http://www.saunalahti.fi/~juhamak/KievIII.JPG

http://www.cedricfan.sivut.ws/Juhani's%20website%20ORIGINAALIT/

Reply author: Michel

Replied on: 20080104114203

Hi cerdicfan,
Has the aperture knob the letter "F" before 22,16… ?

Reply author: cedricfan

Replied on: 20080105013536

Yes, "F: 22 16 " and so on
Does this mean something?

http://www.cedricfan.sivut.ws/Juhani's%20website%20ORIGINAALIT/

Reply author: jed

Replied on: 20080105053127

Hello,

This means your kiev 3 meter is still a mystery [:)]

Here's what we see on an early kiev 3 instruction manual :

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/Rn1.JPG

Does anybody own another manual with instructions for DIN meters ?

Best,
Jed

Reply author: Michel

Replied on: 20080105114739

To Sovietcam,

About "Volga" camera, Peter Hennig says :" …Zeiss were informed that the Russians intended to set up a production of 5.000 Contax cameras a month… The working name of this camera project was ordered to be VOLGA.

…In 1947 approximately 2.000 Contax were officially built in this project at the Zeiss factory in Jena. The majority of these were the Contax II model, along with a few Contax III and some others wearing the new name KIEV in Cyrillic block letters. …"
So, I think no Volga model was produced.

To Kievuser,

Princelle reads : "Officially produced from 1952, some Kiev III have been seen with s/n 49 and 51."
(Wich confirms your message dated 12/26/2007)
Nevertheless I'm not sure one can say "mass production" (?)

Best regards,
Michel.

Reply author: Michel

Replied on: 20080105120316

To Cedricfan,

I don't know…
But the cell is probably from Zeiss.(DIN)
And we can guess that the Knob is too.
Maybe the engraving was then of best quality ? I mean more carefully realized.

But I don't really know.

In my opinion, all these "mysteries" make Kiev collecting quite exciting[:D]

Regards,
Michel.

Reply author: cedricfan

Replied on: 20080106031925

I don't know how much of it is true, but for many years ago I did read a very convincing story about how Contax became Kiev. So the following is no fact but based on my memory from what I read, and if someone knows the website where the complete story is please link.

The Contax factory was to be moved completely to Ukraina after WW2. As everyone knows both Germany and USSR were seriously damaged, and nothing worked well. Plus there was many priority things to do, like getting food. The factory was put into pieces and loaded on to train. But Germany has different rails than Ukraina, so on the border all boxes had to be loaded to a different train, which caused a lot of boxes to get ruined and lost. So when everything was finally gotten unloaded at the final destination it was clear that the parts could never make a factory.
The solution was to bring German engineers to build up the damaged & missing factory pieces. So finally after some years real production finally got started, but slowly. Some parts were old Contax stocks, some made by Contax tools & machines and some with the newly manufactured tools & machines. Which were mostly done in Ukraina by German Contax-personnel. First cameras were surely assembled from old spare parts fully manually and by no means as factory prodution line.
Naturally the old parts did run out in some years, but not all at the same time. And some parts were exactly same as the old ones as they were done with same tools. But some were new, made in Ukraina by Contax-personnel, some also already modified to make Kiev. Naturally first goal was to get production running and to make working cameras, so hiding the German origins was not a priority. But as years passed and new tools & machines was required they were modified to Kiev. Like film speed dial from DIN to GOST.

Based on all what I have later read this story sounds very convincing, so my opinion is that it is a good explanation why the early Kievs slowly shift from Contax to Kiev, and finding two exactly alike cameras can be difficult.
Also it is good to remember that the metered camera was not taken into production as early as the meterless. So they propably still had "new old stock" of Contax parts/tools/machines for the meter part when the camera parts were already used in making "Kiev-II"?

http://www.cedricfan.sivut.ws/Juhani's%20website%20ORIGINAALIT/

Reply author: Kievuser

Replied on: 20080106033831

Hi, Michel,

I assumed mass production according to the s/n of your camera, well passed 1,000 cameras. Maybe we should call it regular production as opposed to only a few prototypes? I am also not sure if Kiev II, III shared the same group s/n, then we don't know exactly how many Kiev IIIs were made in 1951.

Cheers,

Zhang

Reply author: sovietcam

Replied on: 20080106082935

michel

i think also, that no volga cameras was produced. i think, it give only drawings 11.1.1946 - 26.11.1946. at this date, all drawings became the name kiev.
no 1000 cameras were built in 1947. approximately 235 cameras - 2. and 3. preserie ( contax II ), 1. preserie ( contax III ) and cvj kiev prototype.
and 450 cameras from the 1. production ( kiev ). this cameras had inside a contax-engraving ( n°47051-47500 ).

Reply author: Michel

Replied on: 20080109095521

To Cedricfan,

I think the articles you read some time ago could be from ZeissHistorica?

Regards,
Michel.

Reply author: Kievuser

Replied on: 20080118040633

Here are some 'B' numbers I have collected FYI.
B 541139,B543224,B542683,B544194,B544466,B545494.

Please add to this list if you have more.

Cheers,

Kievuser

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by jed
 Hello,

We may need a 'database' where everyone can quote camera s/n, s/n prefix, front plate and so on !

Best,
jed

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Reply author: jed

Replied on: 20080118050503

Hello Zhang,

Believe it or not, I just bought a 1954 B prefix Kiev 3 [:)]

Mine is B 542140

No DIN meter.

I'll post pictures when I'll receive it.

All the best,
Jed

Reply author: Kievuser

Replied on: 20080118070937

Hello jed,

Congratualtions! These 'b' Kiev 3 are quite rare.[:)]

I noticed that all the scale marks on Kiev 3 meters are not exactly the same.It seems that each meter is individully calibrated, and marked.[?]

Best regards,

Zhang

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by jed
 Hello Zhang,

Believe it or not, I just bought a 1954 B prefix Kiev 3 [:)]

Mine is B 542140

No DIN meter.

I'll post pictures when I'll receive it.

All the best,
Jed
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Reply author: jed

Replied on: 20080118121014

Here's an entry in the Wiki :

http://www.ussrphoto.com/wiki/default.asp?ContentID=712&ParentID=4&WikiCatID=66

BTW : please add a close up picture if you have one [8)]

Reply author: Vlad

Replied on: 20080118134236

Yes, the picture would be greatly appreciated for that Wiki entry.

Thanks!
Vlad.

Reply author: jed

Replied on: 20080124144608

Hello Zhang,

Very interesting. Can you elaborate or post close up pictures ?

Best,
Jed

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Kievuser
 Hello jed,

I noticed that all the scale marks on Kiev 3 meters are not exactly the same.It seems that each meter is individully calibrated, and marked.[?]

Best regards,

Zhang

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Here's what we can see on a - gorgeous - 1956 Kiev 3A :

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/RedimensionnerRé-exposition de PICT00091.JPG

Reply author: Kievuser

Replied on: 20080125174847

Hello Jed,

I will take some pictures. I have 7 Kiev 3,3As with 4 versions of marks.[:)] The line for 2 is not the same, some is straight, and some are bent to either way. The space between it the the diamond mark for '0'is not the same in width.

Cheers,

Zhang

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by jed
 Hello Zhang,

Very interesting. Can you elaborate or post close up pictures ?

Best,
Jed

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Kievuser
 Hello jed,

I noticed that all the scale marks on Kiev 3 meters are not exactly the same.It seems that each meter is individully calibrated, and marked.[?]

Best regards,

Zhang

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Here's what we can see on a - gorgeous - 1956 Kiev 3A :

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/RedimensionnerR?exposition de PICT00091.JPG

Reply author: jed

Replied on: 20080126044302

Hello Zhang,

Great !

Thanks for sharing.

Here's a close up picture of the top plate - same camera, Kiev 3A s/n 5616299

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/RedimensionnermeterscalePICT0002.JPG

Best,
Jed

Reply author: jed

Replied on: 20080227135213

Hello All,

I've just got mine today [:)] Well worth the wait, the camera is nice and 100% functional - even the lightmeter is ok !

See :

http://chapakan.chez-alice.fr/KIEV3METER.JPG

To illustrate what Zhang said about the Kiev meter, here's a comparison with an original Contax III camera :

http://chapakan.chez-alice.fr/KIEV3METER1.JPG

Reply author: cedricfan

Replied on: 20080528143659

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/KievIII_A_53b.JPG

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/KievIII_A_53b.JPG

Near mintish Kiev-III serial A 535648 with a plastic exp guide in ERC-pocket.

Film speed "10° DIN" scale

Reply author: uwittehh

Replied on: 20080529124342

Hello Juhani,

interesting camera. My newest Kiev III (with "B" before serial) has the number 540221, so it's close to yours, but it has no Contax parts anymore. And the best, it looks and works like new :-)

Ulrich

http://fotos.cconin.de

Reply author: mermoz37

Replied on: 20080530124737

HI all,
if anybody knows where i can buy such a "b" serial camera , please tell me ...still missing in my collection.
thanks in advance.......

Reply author: jed

Replied on: 20081030163559

Hello Alain,

Here's one :

http://cgi.ebay.fr/KIEV-3-III-CAMERA-CONTAX-COPY-1954-VERY-RARE-MINT_W0QQitemZ400005108539QQcmdZViewItem?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116

All the best,
JED

Reply author: mermoz37

Replied on: 20081031111901

Hi Jed....
thanks a lot for information...yes I must buy it for me (me, or Michel...)
good eyes , good friend, may be good deal [:)][:)][:)]
alain

Reply author: Kievuser

Replied on: 20081031195116

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mermoz37
 Hi Jed....
thanks a lot for information...yes I must buy it for me (me, or Michel...)
good eyes , good friend, may be good deal [:)][:)][:)]
alain
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hi alain,

So far no more than 20 'B' prefix Kiev III has been found. They are rare. Buy it.[:)]

Reply author: mermoz37

Replied on: 20081101053249

Hi Zhang...
I am not Rockfeller , you know....[V]
Ok I buy it and...you pay for me ....OK friend ? [:D][:D][:D]

Reply author: jed

Replied on: 20081101061959

Congratulations !

ps : the seller wrote "tested with film"[8)]

Reply author: mermoz37

Replied on: 20081101063149

damned friends ...and now , tell me how and where I will get money to feed my family ???[:o)][:o)]

Reply author: jed

Replied on: 20081101083556

I also hardly resisted the temptation ! Such a rare camera is a good investment :)

Reply author: Kievuser

Replied on: 20081101102645

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mermoz37
 Hi Zhang...
I am not Rockfeller , you know....[V]
Ok I buy it and...you pay for me ....OK friend ? [:D][:D][:D]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hi alain,

I did not know my advice would cost me so much.[:0] Well, maybe I could give you a vintage Chinese watch for my mistake.[;)][:D]

Reply author: mermoz37

Replied on: 20081101112055

thanks Zhang...so,after listen you all, I make a very good crisis investment : I will be a (the) new world company !![}:)][:p][^]

Reply author: Michel

Replied on: 20081101115621

Hi,Gentle Kiev Addicts,

We shall have hard work in recensing all Kiev cells !!

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/IMGP1180---copie-1.jpg

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/IMGP1181---copie-1.jpg

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/IMGP1182---copie-1.jpg

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/IMGP1183---copie-1.jpg

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/IMGP1183---copie-1.jpg

Amitiés.

Reply author: jed

Replied on: 20081101123910

Hello Alain,

Thanks lots ! [:)]

So there's at least five scale marks models on Kiev III cameras. That one - previously posted - is different :

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/RedimensionnermeterscalePICT0002.JPG

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/RedimensionnermeterscalePICT0002.JPG

Does anybody own another one ?[?][?]

best,
Jed

Reply author: Michel

Replied on: 20081101124247

Euhhh……
Jed, did you meant Alain or Michel ?
[:D]

Reply author: jed

Replied on: 20081101124632

.... I'm sorry Michel !![:I]

I bet Alain owns some Kiev III :)

Reply author: Michel

Replied on: 20081101125310

There is no offense, Jed !![8D][8D]
About Alain : I ask myself what he has NOT !!![:D][:D]

Reply author: jed

Replied on: 20081101131617

Really ? None ?
Kiev III is my favorite camera [;)]

I'm just curious about your four meters: do they work fine ? I own two Kiev III and one Kiev IIIa without any issues.
A couple of months ago I purchased a broken Contax III but I found that a simple cleaning put the meter back to life [:)] I'll post pictures showing operation in the near future if somebody is interested.

Reply author: Michel

Replied on: 20081101135947

Hi Jed,

Yes, the four cells work.
But I can say nothing about their accuracy (never compared with well- working cell)[:I][:I]

Reply author: uwittehh

Replied on: 20081208162203

Another KNEB III with "A"-prefix arrived today. Serial number is 551468, so it seems to be the newest one of the ones shown here?

Ulrich

http://fotos.cconin.de

Reply author: Michel

Replied on: 20081209040641

Hello uwittehh,

Sorry…[:I]

I have K III s/n # A 56 8453, cell in GOST.
So, mine is newest…
(Hé, hé, hé !)

BTW, is your cell in DIN or GOST ?

Regards,
Michel.

Reply author: uwittehh

Replied on: 20081209152019

Hi Michel,

a Kiev III from 56 with an A seems to be a real late one. I have had one before, but that was an export version.

My cell is in GOST, only my Kiev III from 52 has the cell in DIN (and an F before the aperture values).

Ulrich

http://fotos.cconin.de

Reply author: Michel

Replied on: 20081210042503

Hi, Ulrich,

What do you mean by "export version"?[?]

Regards,
Michel.

Reply author: uwittehh

Replied on: 20081210141323

Hi Michel,

I mean the latin and cyrillic engraved ones with "export version".

Ulrich

http://fotos.cconin.de