Narciss viewfinder - which version?

Hi to all.

I bought a black Narciss camera with warning plate on the rear side. The serial number of the camera is very close to the one here in the Wiki Catalog but that one is without the warning plate. I suspect the plate was added later since it seems to be a bit bent in one corner. What is your opinion?

The stranger thing I find about this Narciss is the viewfinder. There is no ground glass - image can't be focused and when aperture is closed not full image is visible. However, there is a glass in there and it has a hairline cross. How should the viewfinder look like on Narciss? Does the prism fit here as it should? There is a little gap when mounted. Is the glass with a cross original?

Thank you for sharing your knowledge with me,

Ziga.

http://shrani.si/f/3j/Hg/kMpG2Q6/nar01.jpg

http://shrani.si/f/3J/hu/FsRX0pL/nar02.jpg

http://shrani.si/f/2u/gH/27RtXG2I/nar03.jpg

http://shrani.si/f/1a/so/1nhozhhO/nar04.jpg

http://shrani.si/f/3h/jp/JB6noMW/nar05.jpg

http://shrani.si/f/2I/y5/2goyhyM7/nar06.jpg

Aperture set to minimum value on the last photo.

Hi zcetrt,
It's a medical version of Narciss, used as registry device for various endoscope etc. Special focusing screen and warning plate(for medics) are original.

http://xalmaz.narod.ru

Thanks, xalmaz! Sovietcams doesn't list Medical Narciss or any narciss with such focusing screen. There is also just white wersion with the warning plate.

I checked all the photos on http://submin.com/16mm/collection/narciss/index.htm but I don't see the same prism as on my sample. Do you have any information on the prism design?

Sorry, zcetrt, i don't have any other data. Just hear about many variations of Narciss.

http://xalmaz.narod.ru

I've received an email today from Dr. Milos Mladek from Austria, here's what he asked me to post here:

"As far as I know there were two versions of the Narciss: the regular version, and a variant for endoscopy (gastroscopy or so). The cameras differ in the „ground glass“. The civilian version really has a normal ground glass, but the endoscopic version has a plain optically neutral glass with a cross of hair lines. While the ground glass has a real image that is then watched by means of an eyepiece (in the finder), the image of the endoscopic Narciss is a „Luftbild“ (=German, it would translate into something like „air image“). The reason why they included this plain glass with the hair cross is simple: the image is brighter by far, and with a little practice this kind of viewfinder can be used as comfortably as a normal one. All you have to do is to focus the endoscope (or the relay lens in the tube that hands the endoscopic image to the camera) on the interesting detail (e.g. the gastric ulcer) and the hair cross at the same time (!). They must be sharp at the same time. Sounds complicated, but is not. The Narciss on your website is such an endoscopic version with aerial image. But normally the endoscopic Narciss was delivered with a different viewfinder which was exclusively thought for endoscopy. It looks quite different and can be distinguished instantly. It renders an upside-down (and laterally correct) image and also has a different magnification (the regular camera has a correct image of about 0,8x, while the endoscopic viewfinder is about 1,25x magnification and has a round field of view). The aerial image is outstandingly clear, bright, and a joy to use. The endoscope was attached to the camera by a screw-in (normal Narciss thread) helicoid tube with built-in relay lens that can be focussed from beyond infinity to about 10 cm distance, so that it can handle all virtual distances of the endoscopic image (the endoscope normally renders an image that is thought for the human eye, with a comfortable viewing distance of about 30-50 or so centimeters)."

http://www.ussrphoto.com/resize/resize_image.aspx?ImgWd=800&IptFl=/UserContent/3052016_01 Narciss.JPG

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/3052016_01 Narciss.JPG

http://www.ussrphoto.com/resize/resize_image.aspx?ImgWd=800&IptFl=/UserContent/3052016_02 there were two viewfinders.JPG

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/3052016_02 there were two viewfinders.JPG

http://www.ussrphoto.com/resize/resize_image.aspx?ImgWd=800&IptFl=/UserContent/3052016_03 the two viewfinders.JPG

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/3052016_03 the two viewfinders.JPG

http://www.ussrphoto.com/resize/resize_image.aspx?ImgWd=800&IptFl=/UserContent/3052016_04 endoscopic viewfinder.JPG

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/3052016_04 endoscopic viewfinder.JPG

http://www.ussrphoto.com/resize/resize_image.aspx?ImgWd=800&IptFl=/UserContent/3052016_05 .JPG

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/3052016_05 .JPG

http://www.ussrphoto.com/resize/resize_image.aspx?ImgWd=800&IptFl=/UserContent/3052016_06 .JPG

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/3052016_06 .JPG

http://www.ussrphoto.com/resize/resize_image.aspx?ImgWd=800&IptFl=/UserContent/3052016_07 there is no ground glass, but a clear glass with hair-cross.JPG

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/3052016_07 there is no ground glass, but a clear glass with hair-cross.JPG

http://www.ussrphoto.com/resize/resize_image.aspx?ImgWd=800&IptFl=/UserContent/3052016_08 the viewfinder has no prism, yet a simple mirror.JPG

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/3052016_08 the viewfinder has no prism, yet a simple mirror.JPG

http://www.ussrphoto.com/resize/resize_image.aspx?ImgWd=800&IptFl=/UserContent/3052016_09 the endoscopic relay lens can be mounted instead of the normal lens.JPG

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/3052016_09 the endoscopic relay lens can be mounted instead of the normal lens.JPG

Best regards,
Milos and Vlad

Hard to understand that a camera with 14x21mm frame was preferred for medical (important) photos over a camera with 24x36mm frame.

Interesting to me are the serials and production numbers on zenitcamera.com.
The first Narciss in this thread has #6411592 when the production for 1964 was only 7484 cameras, even 1963 till 1965 production was only 10469.
On fotoua.com is a #6100402 when production was only 137.
There might be different batches with different serial ranges.

Thanks for the replies!

On the image showing two viewfinders detached from the camera above the same kind of normal prism finder as on my camera is shown. When I look at the Narcisses listed on eBay or other sources, I can't find such prism viewfinder. Note that upper part is wider then the back part - there is a step in the shape. All other viewfinders I can see on the images on the web don't have this step.

http://shrani.si/f/j/Dt/3Dm0BSFy/narcissviewfinder.png

Seems like I have a black medical Narciss with medical prism viewfinder. However, it's also possible that black normal body was fitted with medical focusing screen and prism viewfinder. Does anybody know if the mounting of the warning plate is visible from the inside on the back doors? Were there any black medical Narcisses?

Here are my both Narcisses. Hope that helps..

http://www.ussrphoto.com/resize/resize_image.aspx?ImgWd=800&IptFl=/UserContent/3052016_20160530_163352.jpg

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/3052016_20160530_163352.jpg

http://www.ussrphoto.com/resize/resize_image.aspx?ImgWd=800&IptFl=/UserContent/3052016_1464644313492-265377285.jpg

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/3052016_1464644313492-265377285.jpg

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Lenny</i>
<br />Hard to understand that a camera with 14x21mm frame was preferred for medical (important) photos over a camera with 24x36mm frame.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Lenny

It's a basic of photography; the less the film format is the bigger the depth of field will be. So it is a very good idea to use a small format for such a device. Saying that I think the later Zenit-MT1 are a step backwards in this field.

BTW: Didn't you remark that your nitpicking about s/n don't help in any way?

Guido

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Guido</i>
<br />your nitpicking about s/n
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks Guido,
then I think it can't be the frame size, it must be the lens made for a smaller frame size. So the same results should be achieved with a different lens on Zenit.

Don't understand what you mean with nitpicking. These less produced Narciss cameras are definitely different than mass produced Fed-1.
Maybe Zoom can tell more about the serial batches for different versions of Narciss.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by zcetrt</i>
<br />I bought a black Narciss camera with warning plate on the rear side. The serial number of the camera is very close to the one here in the Wiki Catalog but that one is without the warning plate. I suspect the plate was added later since it seems to be a bit bent in one corner. What is your opinion?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hi Ziga,

on fotoua.com type-1c #6500709 is also black with a plate on the back.


I wonder what the warning says. Could someone translate please. Thanks

Hi, Lenny

The warning says that you shouldn't change shutter speed if the shutter isn't cocked. I also saw photos where the warning plate is on the wooden box (medical Narciss). http://www.dvdtechcameras.com/cameras/submin/15/15.htm

I found a link showing Narciss with the same type of prism viewfinder as mine: http://newauction.ru/offer/fotoapparat_narciss-i22005743195646.html

I wonder if the prism viewfinder design has changed or there is difference between the prism viewfinders. Interesting camera, indeed. I wonder what's the story behind the Narciss I own :)

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by zcetrt</i>
<br />The warning says that you shouldn't change shutter speed if the shutter isn't cocked.

I wonder if the prism viewfinder design has changed or there is difference between the prism viewfinders.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks Ziga,

I thought KMZ solved the problem with changing speeds long time ago.

I think all Narciss are kind of medical cameras, because all viewfinders I saw from #6401xxx on have the medical viewfinder according to Dr.Mladek and 1964 was the year with the most production.

I wish I would know more about medical Zenit and the transition from Narciss to Zenit.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Lenny</i>
I think all Narciss are kind of medical cameras, because all viewfinders I saw from #6401xxx on have the medical viewfinder according to Dr.Mladek and 1964 was the year with the most production.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Lenny,

all Narciss cameras were originally manufactured as medical cameras, but most of cameras from 1964 and later have already "normal" viewfinder.

Here are the photos of original medical set from 1962 with two viewfinders:

http://www.ussrphoto.com/resize/resize_image.aspx?ImgWd=800&IptFl=/UserContent/3152016_NAR-6200339-14.JPG

http://www.ussrphoto.com/resize/resize_image.aspx?ImgWd=800&IptFl=/UserContent/3152016_NAR-6200339-15.JPG

http://www.ussrphoto.com/resize/resize_image.aspx?ImgWd=800&IptFl=/UserContent/3152016_NAR-6200339-19.JPG

Regards, Alexander

... and some more photos:

http://www.ussrphoto.com/resize/resize_image.aspx?ImgWd=800&IptFl=/UserContent/3152016_NAR-6200339-03.JPG

http://www.ussrphoto.com/resize/resize_image.aspx?ImgWd=800&IptFl=/UserContent/3152016_NAR-6200339-12.JPG

http://www.ussrphoto.com/resize/resize_image.aspx?ImgWd=800&IptFl=/UserContent/3152016_NAR-6200339-13.JPG

Regards, Alexander

Was medical Narciss supplied without a lens? The seller I bought the camera said that he firstly got only the body and later added a lens that is not original to the camera.

From set that Alexander posted it looks that way.. no lens.

... More about medicine.

http://www.ussrphoto.com/resize/resize_image.aspx?ImgWd=800&IptFl=/UserContent/3152016__MG_6213.JPG

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/3152016__MG_6213.JPG

Thanks Alexey! I reaaaaaaaaally don't want to know what these little things were used for! [;)] [:D]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by AlexanderK</i>
<br />
all Narciss cameras were originally manufactured as medical cameras, but most of cameras from 1964 and later have already "normal" viewfinder.

Here are the photos of original medical set from 1962 with two viewfinders:
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks Alexander,

that was a great information to solve some secrets.
Your Narciss is the only one I know from 1962.

This set has no lens, it was used for medical purposes with different accessories, that you see on photo from Alexey.
Set has also two different base glass plates for the camera: a matt one (standard) and transparent with crossed lines (as on photo from Ziga).

Regards, Alexander

Posting on behalf of Dr. Milos Mladek again:

"By the way: one of the images I sent you probably was lost: the view through the endoscopic version of the „prism“ (which in this case is a simple mirror rather). It shows that the viewfinder image is indeed round and bottom-up (and unreversed laterally, as can be seen from the engraving „Narciss“).

Also by the way: when I was in the hospital, in the 1970/80s, my colleagues did many endoscopies using an Olympus endoscope (at the time the best available), and the Olympus Pen F SLR camera (half-frame 18x24 on film) was used for documentation. It is funny that the camera they used also was a special version, namely a special version of the Pen F, with round viewfinder image and cross-hair, no ground-glass, but a simple clear glass. I do not think that one firm (KMZ and Olympus) copied from the other, I believe that the purpose simply demands for a certain tool, but – it looks like that the Narciss (dating from the early 1960s) was ahead of the Olympus Pen F (introduced 1963 in the plain form, and in the endoscopic form probably some years later). Anyway, I believe that the form of the special version of the cameras simply came from the need to meet the requirements.

Another time (3rd time) by the way: there also was a discussion whether the small format of the Narciss was a drawback when the camera was used for such important things as endoscopic examinations. But the question is irrelevant in reality. Diagnoses in gastroscopy or coloscopy are never made by simply looking at (or photographing) a detail. Of course the examiner in most cases has a strong feeling as for „harmless“ or „bad/malignant“ when he sees a detail, but: final diagnoses are made by means of a biopsy exclusively. You cut a little specimen off the region of interest and the examination of this in a microscope will tell you the truth (which will take a little time, as the specimen must be soaked with a special paraffin or plastics or deep frozen, then cut into thin slices and stained with special dies). The photographs that are usually taken during an endoscopy are a sort of a reminder of the visual impression you got during endoscopy, and they are mostly combined with the verbal description of what was seen through the endoscope in the endoscopy report (that is then delivered to the patient and his doctor), but the photographs never are the exclusive or decisive source of the final diagnosis. So the quality of these photographs is not as important as one might think. Very probably the advantage of a large depth-of-field was bigger than the disadvantage of lesser resolution. As I said: histology (the examination of the endoscopically taken specimen with the microscope) is the all-decisive tool in endoscopy."

http://www.ussrphoto.com/resize/resize_image.aspx?ImgWd=800&IptFl=/UserContent/162016_Endoscopic Narciss viewfinder image.JPG

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/162016_Endoscopic Narciss viewfinder image.JPG

Best regards,
Milos and Vlad.