50 Years - Soviet Ukraine
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Topic
Topic author: nightphoto
Posted on: 20080103003621
I am wondering what year would be the 50th anniversary of the Soviet Ukraine, or "50 Years Soviet Ukraine", as I have bought a KIEV leather case, without camera, that has a printed metal plaque with a commemorative logo for that occasion (see photos below).
To me this metal plaque looks to be original, added to the case at the factory, but I don't know for sure. Any ideas?
I believe the case is for a KIEV-4a and I may want to get a camera for the case that is the correct year. Any help would be appreciated.
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/kievcase1.jpg
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/kievcase2.jpg
Regards, Bill
Replies
Reply author: jed
Replied on: 20080103080834
Hello,
You should look for a 1967 camera [:)]
Best,
Jed
Reply author: Vlad
Replied on: 20080103101708
Well I'm sorry to say that Jed, but technically that's not true from a historical perspective. 1967 for 50th anniversary from Great October Revolution in 1917. Ukraine became "Soviet" republic in 1919 and was part of military alliance with RSFR (Russian Soviet Federative Republic) with Kharkov as a capital and then in 1922 became officially a republic in "Soviet Union" which was officially established on Dec. 30 1922.
Bill, I don't really know whether they count from 1919 or 1922 for these anniversary cameras since it can be either way. so it'll be either 1969 or 1972.
Vlad
Reply author: Vlad
Replied on: 20080103102932
If I am to guess I would say 1969 though, since that's when (1919) "Soviet" Ukraine Republic was established.
Reply author: nightphoto
Replied on: 20080103110827
Thanks Vlad and Jed! I just found some Ukranian commemorative stamps on Ebay, commemorating the 50th year of Soviet Ukraine and they are from 1967, so you are right about that Vlad. So, I will look for a 1967 Kiev 4a.
Has anyone ever seen this "50 Years Soviet Ukraine" plaque on a case before?
Regards, Bill
Reply author: Vlad
Replied on: 20080103111821
Wait.. '67??? I was saying '69... I guess the stamps are not accurate either if they count from the revolution.
Vlad.
Reply author: cedricfan
Replied on: 20080103112416
My thick history book says Ukraina got independent 1917, and in 1919 power in Ukraina was taken by communists, leading to becoming allied to USSR in same year 1919. The year 1922 is not even mentioned in my finnish history book!
So my vote goes for 1969 in this case and for this case.
But nowadays Ukraina could say they are 91 years old in 2008?
http://www.cedricfan.sivut.ws/Juhani's%20website%20ORIGINAALIT/Reply author: Vlad
Replied on: 20080103114142
Yea.. little discrepancy is though, Juhani, that there was no USSR in 1919, only RSFSR. USSR was official established as I said in 1922. [:)]
Reply author: AidasCams
Replied on: 20080103114548
I agree with Vlad. My poor history knowledge also refers to 1922.
Regards,
Aidas
Reply author: jed
Replied on: 20080103120140
Reply author: nightphoto
Replied on: 20080103120452
Reply author: jed
Replied on: 20080103120603
BTW Bill,
Your case is quite rare !
Best,
Jed
Reply author: Vlad
Replied on: 20080103121727
Jed,
the Wikipedia says it was declared by bolsheviks in Ukraine as USSR in December 1917 but that did not take since bolsheviks got pushed out from Independent Ukraine until 1919... in 1919 it officially became Soviet.. it's all very confusing, I guess Soviets would want to say that it was in 1917 thus making 1967, but by official records it really was 1919 when the communist government was established in Ukraine. I guess we're all right to some degree, the history is changed by whoever tells it, which is really the case in most oppressive regimes.. Maybe Soviets wanted to sweep those 2 years of fighting in the Ukraine under the rug and just say that it became "Soviet" in 1917.. very likely the case... I guess it's hard to determine the age of this case by just history alone, we also need to get inside the minds of the directors of Arsenal factory.
Vlad.
Reply author: nightphoto
Replied on: 20080103122907
Here is a link I found to a bronze commemorative medallion. It looks like Jed is correct and the celebration took place in 1967.
http://collectrussia.com/DISPITEM.HTM?ITEM=9259 So that is the year of Kiev 4a camera I will look for.
Regards, Bill
Reply author: Vlad
Replied on: 20080103130450
oh boy, gotta love the propaganda! [:)]
Reply author: okynek
Replied on: 20080103223426
Well as I can remember what I was learning at middle school, after Great Soviet Socialist Revolution in Petrograd on October 25 1917 (Nov. 7 by modern calendar) Ukraine suddenly became free and without any government. Tsar was gone. So anyone who had gun or rifle declared himself a new Ukrainian government. It was literally 100th different organization (people called them bandits) who fearlessly fight with each other for power. One of such organization was Ukrainian Bolsheviks who on December 25 1917 declare new Ukrainian Socialistic Republic. So date December 25 1917 is officially birthday of UkSSR. The problems that Ukrainian Bolsheviks has no any power, or support, or authority at that time and can equally declare that sky is falling or bear is vegetable. They was dissolved in few month and no one would remember this if not because this facts (possibly made up facts) let Red Army in 1919 enter Ukraine and on behave or Ukrainian Bolsheviks seas the power. In 1922, delegation from 4 republics RSFSR, UkSSR, Belarusian and Asian republic officially created Soviet Union. And from December 30, 1922 Ukraine became part of the USSR. So I guess all of you right. Official birthday of UkSSR is Dec. 25 1917. But really UkSSR appear only by 1919 and became part of USSR by the end of 1922.
So correct camera for this case most likely has to be from 1967, but real UkSSR birthday should be in 1919, when Red Army entered and occupied Ukraine.
Reply author: uccmmcpo
Replied on: 20080104064654
Not to dispute anything but only to add a bit of interest to the historic disussion. Did you know that Americans soldiers were dispatched to Siberia Russia (some killed) during their civil war?
Here`s an article written by my cousin Joseph. He was there when he was 19 yrs old.
John Demastrie
http://www.pbase.com/johnd1/image/91215215/largeand here`s another article on the subject. I`ll bet only a few Americans know anything of this. I wonder if it `s all forgotten as well in Russia?
http://www.militaria.com/8th/WW1/siberia.htmlReply author: Vlad
Replied on: 20080104140446
Okynek: "Bear is a vegetable" - Love it! [:D][:D][:D] LOL
John, that is extremely interesting fact, as many things in USSR especially during cold war, presence of Americans on Russian soil would not have been mentioned. An interesting modern fact though - do you know there is a contingent of US Marines in Republic of Georgia right now? [:)] One of the reasons Putin is so pissed at Georgia, because US trains the Georgian national guard to potentially join NATO.. just an interesting fact since we touched the subject of US being on USSR territory. Sorry for OT guys.
Vlad
Reply author: nightphoto
Replied on: 20080104184629
John,
I know about this episode in Northern Russia and in fact I have a collection of approximately 110 small original photographs taken by a British photographer in 1918-1919, of the railway and railroad cars, military posts, American and British soldiers, and Russian soldier and local residents taken between Archangel and Vladivostok. It is an interesting episode.
Thanks for posting those links!
Regards, Bill
Reply author: uccmmcpo
Replied on: 20080104205222
Hi Bill,
Yes I bet those photos would be quite interesting to see indeed.
In Massachusetts returning WW1 veterans of foreign war campaigns were recognized with a $50 or a $100 bonus and citation of appreciation but my cousin never got his. He fought the state of Massachusetts for many many years because the Russian expedition was never officially recognized in the realm of battle in WW1 or something along that line. I remember an article a few years before he died (approx 1990) where the state of Massachusetts finally recognized the guarding of the RR`s in Vladivostok as a bona fide WW1 campaign. Joseph did in fact finally receive his long overdue bonus check from the state along with a few other recipients that he also fought for on their behalf. It was a matter of principle.
Here`s another interesting article :
http://www.oldmagazinearticles.com/pdf/WWI%20Siberia.pdf John
Reply author: Zoom
Replied on: 20080106152939
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by uccmmcpo</i>
<br />I wonder if it `s all forgotten as well in Russia?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I know about these events from a school history course.
But I went to school in USSR, and now don't know the present historical education quality...
In general, such impression, that all became worse...
Reply author: nightphoto
Replied on: 20080106162922
Zoom,
It is the same here in the United States. Education in general has become very poor concerning history and many other subjects. Many high school graduates do not even know where the other major countries in the world are located!
When I have a little bit of time I will post several of the more interesting photographs taken during that Western occupation or incursion into northern Russia during WW I.
Regards, Bill
Reply author: mermoz37
Replied on: 20080107045123
Bill,
i possess such a case since long time (and in better condition [^]) and the camera inside is 71XXXX because the anniversary is 1972 (1922+50)
Reply author: mermoz37
Replied on: 20080107051741
complement, just in french...sorry :
""Proclamée en novembre 1917, la République autonome ukrainienne eut à faire face à la République soviétique d'Ukraine soutenue par les bolcheviques. La Russie soviétique créa en 1922 la "République fédérée d'Ukraine.""
(history of Ukrainia)
Reply author: nightphoto
Replied on: 20080107103632
Alain,
Is the 1971 camera the one that came with the case?
Regards, Bill
Reply author: Vlad
Replied on: 20080107155827
An interesting turn of events... [:D]
Reply author: nightphoto
Replied on: 20080107181807
Alain and Vlad,
What about this medallion that appears to be commemorating the 50th Anniversary of the Soviet Ukraine? It has the dates 1917-1967 on it.
http://collectrussia.com/DISPITEM.HTM?ITEM=9259 It would seem that the medallion was one of those made for the Soviet consumer, since the writing is in Russian.
Regards, Bill
Reply author: jed
Replied on: 20080118125820
Reply author: nightphoto
Replied on: 20080118161523
Thanks Jed,
I will keep an eye on it. I think 1967 may be the correct year although there seems to be two other years that are candidates... 1969 and 1971. I wish someone knew for sure!
Regards, Bill
Reply author: USSRBJ
Replied on: 20090110091103
Reply author: mermoz37
Replied on: 20090110104640
Alex certifyed to me it was 1969 ....after buying 3 anniversary items from him.
Reply author: nightphoto
Replied on: 20090110111736
Dear Zhou,
Welcome to the forum from me as well! Nice to have you here.
Thanks for the answer to my question of one year ago! This is the best answer I have received yet because although there seems to me a number of different ideas as to when the anniversary was ... what I really wanted to know is what year of Kiev IIIA was sent with this type of Anniversary Case. So now I know for sure and can get the camera to fit the case!
And please Zhou, can you tellme if the telephoto lens, wide angle lens, and multi-finder came with one of these Anniversary cameras or were they added by you?
Looks like you have a nice collection of Soviet cameras.
Regards, Bill
Reply author: USSRBJ
Replied on: 20090110113249
Hi alain,
This topic let me remember another thread:
http://www.ussrphoto.com/Forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=700Two 50 years anniversary Fed-2 S/N are both: 67*****
But I think this is not mean that kiev with 69***** is wrong.
Every thing is possible, who know...
Zhou
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by mermoz37</i>
<br />Alex certifyed to me it was 1969 ....after buying 3 anniversary items from him.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Reply author: USSRBJ
Replied on: 20090110114729
Hi Bill,
Thanks for your regards!
As I mentioned above, these cameras are my friend's collection. He is a enthusiastic fan of USSR cemeras and USSR culture. But he is seldom on the internet.
Best regards,
Zhou
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by nightphoto</i>
<br />Dear Zhou,
Welcome to the forum from me as well! Nice to have you here.
Thanks for the answer to my question of one year ago! This is the best answer I have received yet because although there seems to me a number of different ideas as to when the anniversary was ... what I really wanted to know is what year of Kiev IIIA was sent with this type of Anniversary Case. So now I know for sure and can get the camera to fit the case!
And please Zhou, can you tellme if the telephoto lens, wide angle lens, and multi-finder came with one of these Anniversary cameras or were they added by you?
Looks like you have a nice collection of Soviet cameras.
Regards, Bill
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
