Some forerunners of the m39 Jupiter 8...
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Topic
Topic author: Jacques M.
Posted on: 20230115101656
Hello,
The main ancestor of our Jup 8 is of course the Sonnar 2/5cm. It was produced in bayonet and LTM mount, and different versions were made, as it seems, during and after WW2. I am very interested by these lenses...
Here are some of them:
http://www.ussrphoto.com/resize/resize_image.aspx?ImgWd=800&IptFl=/UserContent2/1512023_IMG_0874.JPG
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/1512023_IMG_0874.JPGFrom left to right (and up to down):
- Sonnar #2683810, collapsible, M engraved,
- Sonnar #2709453, bought without mount,
- Sonnar #2709900, collapsible, m engraved,
- Sonnar #2711193, collapsible, M engraved,
- Sonnar #2854538, rigid, M engraved,
- ZK #4903651, collapsible, of course with M,
- Jupiter 8 early, #5005810, with ears.
I will try to write some words about each of them... but for sure I won't exhaust the subject!
Jacques.
Replies
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20230115103711
First of them, the Sonnar collapsible s/n 2683810.
It belongs to a series of 5000 Sonnars theorically mounted with a bayonet for the Contaxes.
In fact, if I rely on my listing, the first half only (very roughly) was delivered with a Contax mount. And we normally find these lenses on the last wartime Contax II and III (M and O series). As far as I know, these first lenses were not coated.
The second part is more entangled. If we still find Contax mounts, many of them have a m39 mount, adapted from a Fed (or other) mount. We find these lenses on very different cameras: some Zorkis or Feds (a NKAP, a Fed Arsenal!), a TSVVS... It is in that second half that lenses begin to be coated.
All that could suggest a second part of the batch only half finished and achieved at the end or after WW2.
As for my lens, it's a sort of an exception, as it belongs to the first half and already has a regular collapsible LTM Zeiss mount (with the Zeiss RF number on the back of the mount).
Some photos in the following post.
Jacques.
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20230115105901
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20230116102737
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20230116104221
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20230116113154
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20230117103443
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20230119112243
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20230119113302
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20230119114654
What to conclude? Certainly nothing...
Even if we have some "bibles" about these lenses ("the" Thiele and "the" Gubas, for me), we are far from knowing all the details about these wartime and just poswar lenses.
As for the reputation of numerous fakes in these series, I cannot exactly agree with that. For example, the "M" is an original Zeiss mark. And there is no doubt that some non-achieved lenses were mounted lately by KMZ. That said, evident fakes exist too on the net...
Amitiés. Jacques.
Reply author: uwittehh
Replied on: 20230119121809
Jacques,
a very interesting thread.
I own only 2 old M39 lenses with Zeiss glasses, both are 1,5/50mm with ears.
One is a ZK with number 000161 which has internal Zeiss number 726735, the other is a Jupiter 3 with number 5102840, which has internal Zeiss number 726979. This is very interesting, they are from the same batch (according to Thiele made in January 1943, with the remarks 'for Contax, some for M39') and only about 260 numbers away from each other, while one is from 1948 and the other from 1951.
For Kiev/Contax mount I have 6 2.0/50mm, 4 are from 1949, 2 are from 1950, all marked with ZK. Three are collapsible, and three are rigid.
But I have not disassembled them to see the internal Zeiss numbers. Would be interesting for comparing, I think.
Ulrich
http://fotos.cconin.deReply author: xya
Replied on: 20230119125048
Jacques, this is a wonderful thread, very instructive. Thank you so much.
As we are still in january: Bonne Année !
www.a7camera.com www.120folder.com www.instantphoto.eu www.135compact.com www.oddcameras.com
www.subcompactcam.com
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20230121082038
Thanks, Ulrich and Reinhart! Et excellente année également![:)]
The case of the Sonnar 1,5/5cm is a bit different, I think. It was considered as the best 5cm of its generation, and probably due to that, prone to be faked. Actually, we have on the net genuine Sonnars 1,5/cm, originally in Contax mount, re-mounted in the LTM one, with very different (and sometimes strange) bodies.And fakes from Jup 3...
We don't really have that problem with the 2/5cm: all those in collapsible mount are (theorically) genuine.
Just a photo of the # 2710312 on the Kiev 47 #47168. I put the lens after, but it should be good: by the Sasaki, the 2710154 is mounted on the Kiev 47058, and the 2710279 on the Kiev 5908/470033...
http://www.ussrphoto.com/resize/resize_image.aspx?ImgWd=800&IptFl=/UserContent2/2112023_IMG_0917.JPG
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/2112023_IMG_0917.JPGReply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20230121083224
Reply author: Elmar Lang
Replied on: 20230207123530
Hello,
a highly interesting thread indeed.
Being a fan of the Kiev rangefinder camera (and the Contax too, of course), the Jupiter-8, the ZK and the Sonnar are among of my focuses.
With 39x1 mount, I have a FED-Zorki "1948" camera (shutter up to 1/1000), fitted with a collapsible ZK also dated 1948, S/N "N 001220";
with Contax/Kiev mount, my oldest piece are a 1947 dated, collapsible "ZK" S/N "N 000064", mounted on a 1947 Kiev camera (S/N 47367) and a 1949 dated, collapsible "ZK" "Zorki" S/N "N 4905216", mounted on a Kiev-3, S/N 490033.
All the best,
Enzo (E.L.)
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20230209111246
Thanks, Enzo.
The case of the Kiev 1947 is interesting. We can find on them 2/5cm Sonnars or 1947 ZK as well. It seems that some Sonnars were not transformed into ZK, unless some Kiev 47 were mounted at Jena... Or else!
By chance, would you have the Zeiss serial numbers of your ZK?
Amitiés. Jacques.
Reply author: Elmar Lang
Replied on: 20230210121323
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20230212104514
Reply author: Elmar Lang
Replied on: 20230215113414
Thank you Jacques!
As soon as I will tahe my Cameras from the storage, I will try to see whether the ZK ones can be inspected.
So, the lens barrel is just screwed inside the mount; no screws to hold it in place?
All the best,
Enzo
Reply author: uwittehh
Replied on: 20230218174242
Jacques,
that is interesting. The numer on the front ring and on the barrel of your lens are totally different. Until now I only know examples where the number on the barrel is the same as on the front ring without the leading "2". Maybe these collapsible lenses were made from spare parts?
Ulrich
http://fotos.cconin.deReply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20230219050852
Hello,
To Enzo: the lateral screw you can see on the back of the collapsible Sonnars serves to hold in place the three winglets which lock the lens in open position. But the internal barrel is sometimes sticked to keep the correct regulating... Anyway, never force!
To Ulrich: it's not the first time that I see different numbers. For this special lens, I rather think of an official montage, made in urgency. We are at the end of the series (2709301 to 2711300 by Thiele), another series of collapsible Sonnars is simultaneously mounted, and some parts are mixed. All that in 1945/46, with m or M inscriptions on the lenses... It's how I see things [:)]
Of course, this lens can too have been mounted outside. But all the ciphers are correctly aligned, which is rare in that case.
Thanks to both!
Amitiés. Jacques.
