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Fed Berdsk - Known Examples

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Printed on: 5/7/2026 2:41:38 PM

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Topic author: okynek

Posted on: 20080121214923

before I mess up this katalog, it was one camera on eBay #280190465127:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=280190465127&ssPageName=STRK:MEDW:IT&ih=018


I'm not sure if it should go in it.

Replies

Reply author: nightphoto

Replied on: 20080121220151


Seems like it should go in as the serial number is in the correct range and what the seller says about the engraving seems right also.

Regards, Bill

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20080122065748


Hello,

It seems we must be careful with the limits 1d/1e.
I already saw several Fed 1 engraved 1d in the #173600/176000. Princelle points them in his book (he says #174000-178000). Probably some 1d pre engraved covers sent to Berdsk and put together there. They are really scarce, but it would be fine to check before putting on a list.

Amitiés. Jacques.


Reply author: Vlad

Replied on: 20080528235005

So I am completely lost people... I got 2 books in front of me - Asquini/Pegorari and Princelle 2nd edition:

I also have this camera #177511

Princelle says that these cameras were produced in Siberia with serials on 1e 173600/174000 - c. 183000 and up. So I would assume Berdsk.
Cladio and Albino says the following about the same range: "Towards the end of 1946 the returned to Kharkov is organized and production slowly resumes. Only in 1947 it will be possible to return to full production" ... errrrrr... so while organizing in Kharkov, Berdsk is meanwhile producing this model? I'm confused.. what is the latest news on that? [:D] So according to Asquini/Pegorari the 1e is not Berdsk at all?!

Thanks!
Vlad.

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20080529085559

Hi Vlad,
Not an easy question. But this camera -1e type- is called "Berdsk" because we decided so. We, that is to say probably JLP, but not the factory.
In fact, Berdsk is not written on the covers: there is only "made in the factory of FE Dzerjinski, Kharkov".
We can only suppose that some cameras were put together at Berdsk from spares coming from Kharkov: perhaps these rare Fed 1d engraved CCCP after 173600-174000 (up to c. 176000 for some). The real production will begin again in 1946 with those 1e, maybe at Berdsk first then in Kharkov (from 173600-174000 too).

It would be logical, but nothing is sure!

Amitiés. Jacques.

Reply author: Zoom

Replied on: 20080529092618

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>From Wiki:</i>
A fairly small number of FED 1 cameras manufactured during wartime 1941-1945 when FED factory was evacuated from Kharkov to Berdsk.
<br /><hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
These cameras theoretically could be manufactured in 1942 year (up to October, but not later!), and in the 1945--1946 years (may be from September 1945 to October 1946, but not later again). A two variants are most realistic:
1. Only in 1942 year.
2. Only at the beginning of 1946 year.

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20080529101152


I agree with your dates, Zoom.
Between the two (and after and probably before), Fed worked mainly for aeronautics, hence the NKAP "Red Flag" in 1948 and the TSVVS, if it was made by Fed.

Jacques.

Reply author: nightphoto

Replied on: 20080529103602


One of the most helpful things in Princelle iare the "Benchmarks" notes he adds. For this case, I have noticed he writes (below the entry for the "RED FLAG - N.K.A.P."):

"Benchmarks: The FED "RED FLAG" # 201280 is delivered with a passport printed in Berdsk and countersigned the 19 August 1946."

So, I think if a passport was printed in Berdsk in 1946 then the RED FLAG camera (at least the first 1200) may have been made in Berdsk.

Also, comparing the BERSK cameras with the RED FLAG - KNAP FED you will notice many differences in the parts (the castings look different, for example, of the rangefinder housing) and the finish is also much different. So I suspect that the RED FLAGS were actually made in Berdsk when the old parts from Kharkov ran out and the next FED to come out from Kharkov was probably FED-1f.

The "Berdsk" FEDs were probably assembled in Bersk .... maybe in 1942, and sporadically throughout the war, when they were needed, but by 1945 the parts originally made (and engraved) in Kharkov were running out so a new production line had to be built and the new cameras produced were the "RED FLAG - KNAP".

So I think all FEDs with the Berdsk style engraving, and some with the earlier style engraving were assembled in Berdsk. I also think that it is possible that cameras were assembled in Berdsk, more by hand than assembly line, sporadically throughout the war.

But, all is hypothetical and based on some logic, unless more examples with passports are known (and even then only if the passports tell the place of construction or signing).

Regards, Bill

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20080529104815

Hi Bill,
About passports, DVD show the passport of an S eBerdsk with 31/07/1941 as a date. It would fit your hypothesis. But the date is very next to the evacuation.
It seems the paper was made in Kharkov.

Amitiés. Jacques.

Reply author: Zoom

Replied on: 20080529105757

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by nightphoto</i>
<br />
The "Berdsk" FEDs were probably assembled in Bersk .... maybe in 1942, and sporadically throughout the war, when they were needed, but by 1945 the parts originally made (and engraved) in Kharkov were running out so a new production line had to be built and the new cameras produced were the "RED FLAG - KNAP".
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
About a "sporadically throughout the war"...
It was one document listed there (page in Russian):
http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/misc/gko-docs.html#n2445 ...

This is the GKO (The State Committee of Defense) Decision (Order) No.2445 from October, 23rd, 1942. "About allocation of optical-mechanical manufacture from structure of factory number 296 NKAP and its transfer to NKV system".

So, from the October, 1942 according this Order the FED factory (number 296 NKAP) had no opportunities, nor the rights to make a cameras. Up to the ~1946 year, as we know...

Reply author: nightphoto

Replied on: 20080529112157


Thanks Zoom, that is an interesting reference and I will read it in translation. Now I see why you have said no manufacture at this time (end of '42 - beginning of '46). So, does it mean that the parts just sat there in Berdsk for 1943-1945 ?



Regards, Bill

Reply author: Zoom

Replied on: 20080529113708

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by nightphoto</i>
<br />
So, does it mean that the parts just sat there in Berdsk for 1943-1945 ?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Possibly so. While remains not clear (as there is no text of the order) to whom this optical manufacture (and in what volumes and so on) was transferred... How the optical manufacture was carried out is not clearly too...

P.S. I think, that no return at all existed. Manufacture was restored in Kharkov from scratch.

Reply author: nightphoto

Replied on: 20080529123209


Yes, I think manufacture was restored from scratch too ... because of the big difference from FED- KNAP to the new FED. Maybe FED had some help in setting up the new production from KMZ who already were in production with FED-Zorki & early Zorki-1 ?

Regards, Bill

Reply author: Bull Halsey

Replied on: 20080529131247

Now you got me a bit mixed up, but then again it doesn't take too much to mix me up.

I own what I beleive to be a Berdsk-S, #178482.

This particular camera is one of the oldest pieces in my Russian Camera collection. I bought it in 2000.

Now, what am I to look for? Are we checking for authenticity?

Thanks,
Steve

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20080529175231


About the passports, if you could have a look at the Berdsk S # 180024 of DVD,
-URL http://www.dvdtechcameras.com/collect/fed/fed.htm
-then click on FED S New,
-then go to the last one (before, there are several very strange S...)

The passport is interesting as it shows this curious date -31 VII 1941. Would anybody be kind enough to translate the interesting parts of it (titles, I guess)? Perhaps it would help us to know the origins and dates of these cameras.

Then I agree with Bill about connections between Fed and Zorki. For example, the Fed-KMZ we know, numerous Fed-Zorki and (as it seems)some early Zorki 1a were equipped with the 1/1000th shutter. These shutters were certainly coming from Fed as KMZ never used them after on their 1 series. And the first Fed-Zorki seem to be twins of the last Fed...

But no certitude, as usual...

Amitiés. Jacques.

Reply author: nightphoto

Replied on: 20080529202217

Hi Steve,
Your camera is in the right serial number range and although the FED-S Berdsk is rare, a number of examples are known and I have not seen fakes of it. So we are not so much talking about authenticity, but more about where these cameras, as well as the cameras that came after them, were made. Where they made in Kharkov or Berdsk, and when? So it is more a matter of history than authenticity.

Jacques,
I can read that the passport for camera (FED "Berdsk") serial number 180024 gives an address of "Kharkov, Lesnopark 54"
and also states "NKVD - CCCP ... Kharkovski Kombinat of F.E. Djerzinski". Also that it is a "FED-S". So probably no doubt this camera was finished before any move to Berdsk. Probably just before the move ... or at least they were still using this type of passport (who knows when they would actually make new passports for the new location?

Regards, Bill

Reply author: Vlad

Replied on: 20080529211844

Fascinating! But I'm even more confused now.. wasn't it established that the FED-S camera serial #s were mixed in with regular FED 1's? How in the world then a 1800024 FED-S was made in 1941 (DVD's passport)??? Mine is an earlier serial # than this one and that means that it was made before 1941? Then... how can it be Berdsk? Unless I'm missing something about correlation of FED-S serials vs regular serials.. were specific blocks allocated to FED-S ahead of time so the timeline on those is different than regular FEDs and it does not fall under the timeline established by JLP?

Reply author: nightphoto

Replied on: 20080529214826

Hi Vlad,
Yes, if your serial number is earlier than 180024 (you added an extra "0" in your post above)then your camera was made earlier than that camera!
FED-S occurs as early as 1938 and as late as 1941 for sure (possibly later if some were assembled in Berdsk which is at this time unknown). So there are FED-S cameras that are: FED-1 type C, FED-1 type D, FED-1 type E (Berdsk).

FED-S can be any of those and will have the characteristics of those variations, but will also have 1/1000th speed and the f.2 / 50mm lens ( FED-S must have both as they were made with 1/1000 speed and issued with the f.2 lens).

Look at our list on the WIKI entry for FED-S and you will see the full range of serial numbers (although some of the earliest, before 1938, are probably not correct, maybe renumbered or with non-original rangefinder housings, and have a "?" in the list to denote that).

Regards, Bill

Reply author: nightphoto

Replied on: 20080529215826

And... as Jacques was mentioning, it seems that their may be some relationship between KMZ and FED just after the war since the FED-Zorki of 1948 & 1949 (and maybe some very early Zorki) often has a 1/1000th speed, even though the later Zorki did not have it. So, maybe it is a question to ask ... Did FED and KMZ interact just after the war when there were so many shortages and new production lines, tooling, etc. needed to be accomplished by both factories ?
As we were discussing in a different post, the early KMZ production of KMZ-FED, FED-Zorki, and Zorki cameras were all thought of as "a FED". So maybe in the beginning of KMZ there was some official idea that it was really a continuation and and enlargement of FED production, which shortly changed into two separate "Leica copies"!

Regards, Bill

Reply author: Vlad

Replied on: 20080529220901

So Bill, are you now saying JLP is not correct in his statement that Berdsk cameras are "serial #173600/174000 - c. 183000 and up". So if mine is 1e with #177xxx with Berdsk type engraving it's not made in Berdsk based on the camera passport that DVD has? Wouldn't that make all Berdsks before 180,000 not be Berdsks then? That they were actually still made in Kharkov before the move?

Reply author: nightphoto

Replied on: 20080529222626

Vlad,

The thing is, that it is unknown where all of the cameras with this engraving were made. The fact that they are called "Berdsk" is really a misnomer and confusing. They should be called "FED-1E" based on the engraving on the top.

So because the cameras with this engraving style are called "Berdsk" does not mean they were actually made or assembled in Berdsk.

I am not saying JLP is wrong in his serial numbers range (although they may not be exactly accurate). Your camera, if it has the engraving style and serial number is a "Berdsk", but that does not mean it is made in Berdsk.

It is most likely that the serial numbers above 180xxx (or even higher now that we have seen DVDs passport) were assembled in Berdsk, but that earlier ones (173600 - 180000) were made in Kharkov.

Regards, Bill

Reply author: Vlad

Replied on: 20080529223425

I see! Now I understand, I was confused by this all-enveloping umbrella of Berdsk name.. I agree, if you call it Berdsk then it should be ones that are actually made in Berdsk, otherwise it's just 1E.. well that sucks then, now I need to find a unit close to 183,000 range... [:(]

Thank you very much for the clarification!

Vlad

Reply author: nightphoto

Replied on: 20080529224013


Right ... but it is uncertain that any are from Berdsk, unless you get one with a passport that says "Berdsk" and I have never seen that, although Princelle says there is a passport with "Berdsk" ... but for a "RED FLAG-KNAP"!

Regards, Bill

Reply author: Vlad

Replied on: 20080529224212

I've updated the text in Wiki, please let me know if it's acurate and I understood the result of this discussion correctly.

Thank you!
Vlad

Reply author: Vlad

Replied on: 20080529224413

oh boy, Bill, another can of worms [:D]... I guess the search continues...

Reply author: cedricfan

Replied on: 20080529231134

And this is why I have not yet tried to get me a Berdsk, as it would propably not be one...

Smena rules

Reply author: James McGee

Replied on: 20080529235355

Hello everyone,
Apologies for my recent absence, I've been stuck out in the wilder parts of Azerbaijan for the past couple of weeks and out of touch. I am now just catching up with all the latest posts.
This subject of the so called "Fed Berdsk" (or Fed 1e)is fascinating. Of course this was an extremely turbulent and difficult time in the history of Fed, and perhaps we can never know the real facts.
I have only one Fed 1e "Berdsk" in my collection. If I remember correctly the serial number begins 174XXX, (I will check when I am back in the UK towards the end of June and enter it into the Wiki).
The main point I want to make is that in addition to the unique engraving on the Fed 1e as opposed to all other Fed 1's my particular "Berdsk" has no visible screws in the baseplate. As far as I know this peculiarity applies only to the Fed 1 e. It would be interesting to know how many or what percentage of the "Berdsk's" from our own collections have this physical difference to other types of the Fed 1. Perhaps this information can be of help in pieceing together this mysterious period in the history of Fed.
Cheers, Jim[:)][:)][:)]

Reply author: Vlad

Replied on: 20080529235439

Yes, and to re-answer Steve's question I guess, no Steve, this camera was NOT made in Siberia according to Jacques' and Bill's research I guess but is classified as Berdsk [:)]. So it's authentic, it's a Berdsk but not true Berdsk...

Reply author: Vlad

Replied on: 20080529235745

Good to have you back Jim!

For the uneducated like myself here, what exactly is the baseplate? The bottom plate? and no visible screws you mean no screws? [:)] or sunk screws?

Reply author: James McGee

Replied on: 20080530010923

Hello again,

Juhani, I disagree with your comment,

"And this is why I have not yet tried to get me a Berdsk, as it would propably not be one..."

My point is that the so called "Berdsk" is a type of Fed 1, (Fed 1 e) in it's own right regardless of where it was put together. Maybe it was assembled in Berdsk, maybe it wasn't, and perhaps we will never know.
Nevertheless through this unique Forum and the information that we exchange with each other we are constantly gaining more information about many Soviet cameras, not just the Fed 1 of course, but all Soviet cameras and equipment.
Like many of us collectors who take part in this forum, the Fed 1 to my mind is a very special camera, and the Fed 1 e is especially interesting in as much as the parts must have been manufactured in mid 1941, (just before the move to Berdsk)and that period was withoubt doubt extremely traumatic for the Fed workers and their families especially knowing that the German army were advancing and that soon Kharkov would be in enemy hands.
So to me my "Fed 1 e" counts a valued camera in my collection. Each time I look at it I think of the suffering that those Fed workers must have endured during those difficult times, yet they still continued to work even in the knowledge that they would soon be invaded by the enemy.
Of course will never solve all the mysteries of Fed, but through our exchanges, and the vast knowledge of our members we are constantly moving closer to a better understanding of these times in the history of the Soviet people themselves. How fascinating!!!!
Cheers and regards, Jim[:)][:)][:)]

Reply author: James McGee

Replied on: 20080530012759

Hi Vlad,

I don't have a Fed 1 to hand at the moment, but as far as I remember there are either two, or three countersunk screws visible on outside of the underside of the baseplate of every type of Fed 1 except for the Fed 1 e.(The baseplate meaning the removable bottom plate of the camera).
On The Fed 1 e that I have these screws are not visible, (The baseplate is "clean" apart from the thumb twist for baseplate removal) As far as I know this physical difference applies only to the fed 1 e "Berdsk". I wish I had the camera with me at the moment so that I could explain more fully, but perhaps Bill, or Jacques can clarify this point better than I am able.
Best regards, Jim[:)][:)][:)]

Reply author: James McGee

Replied on: 20080530025936

Vlad, Hello again. I need to make a correction about what I said earlier regarding the baseplate screws on the Fed 1 as I may have mislead you. I had said that no screws were visible on the baseplate of a Fed 1 e, when in fact there will be three visible screws, (I had fogotten the screwed tripod mount) which is held by three visible screws.
Now that I remember, there are in fact five screws on the baseplate. Three holding the tripod mount, and two other screws about one and a half inches, or 4cm apart in the centre, and towards one edge of the baseplate. On some Fed 1e,"Berdsk" it is these two latter screws that are not visible.
As far as I can say, if you have doubts about about whether your camera is a "Fed 1 e Berdsk" and it doesn't have these two screws as on all your other Fed 1 cameras, then it is definately a "Berdsk". I hope that I have explained myself clearly this time, if not no doubt others can correct me.
Cheers, Jim.[:)]

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20080530040252

Hello,
Thanks, Bill for your confirmation.
But I wonder what "Lesopark" means? Has anybody an idea? Is it the general address for Fed factories? If we look at other passports(always in DVD collection), we only find "Lesopark 27" and "Lesopark 54". Are they units of productions, buildings? Perhaps the two...

So, as for me, I own two 1e which are probably from Berdsk (180971 for the S and 182912). To Jim: they both have their 5 screws on the baseplate.

If we try to summarize, we could say that:
-A part of the 1e were made in Kharkov, probably up to c. 180000 at least,
-Then the 1e were made in Berdsk (# c. 180000 to c. 184000), perhaps only till the end of 1942, according to Zoom.
-The production officially ceased and resumed in 1946 with the NKAP Red Flag, always in Berdsk. Maybe they were all made in Berdsk.
-The factory was restored in Kharkov and the post WW2 production begins with the new Fed 1f.

How does that sound ?(with many perhaps and maybe!)
What puzzles me a bit is that interruption in the serial numbers between c. 184000 and 200000. Possibly they started their new numeration to celebrate the new factory. But in that case, the NKAP would have been made <b></b>entirely<b></b>in Kharkov... And the passport mentioned by Princelle says the contrary.

So we jump from a mystery to an other. We have lost about 16000 Fed. But did they ever exist? Has anybody seen them? Sherlock Holmes, help!

Amitiés. Jacques.

Reply author: Zoom

Replied on: 20080530072649

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jacques M.</i>
<br />But I wonder what "Lesopark" means?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
A forest park. There: address.

Some time graduation:
30 December 1938 (SNK order) and 7 January 1939 (NKVD order) "kommuna" was reorganized to "kombinat" (industrial complex) leaded by NKVD (USSR). (SNK -- Sovet Narodnykh Komissarov -- the Government)
From 22 February 1941 (by SNK order) the FED plant was leaded by NKAP (aviation industry department).
From September to December 1941 -- the evacuation to Berdsk.
According the GKO order from 23.10.1942 all plant optical manufactory transferred to NKV.
In 1942 all FED electric drills manufactoring was transferred to Tushino, Moscow.
Labour Red Banner (Flag) order decorating -- 16 September 1945.
From 09.09.1946 -- the re-evacuation to Kharkov.
A recommencement -- up to 1948 year.

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20080530081418


Very precious for the history of Fed!
Many thanks, Zoom.

Jacques.

Reply author: Bull Halsey

Replied on: 20080530180854

You see ?

This is why you should collect Leica's !! :-)

Made in Wetzlar almost forever. :-)

No brain drain. :-)

Steve :-)

Reply author: Vlad

Replied on: 20080530184746

Steve - LOL! For me it's not even a choice - money-wise it's either 270 Russian cameras or 3 Leicas. [:D].

Jim, I will check my camera first opportunity I get, thank you for that bit of info.

One thing I've thought of I don't see why can't we start our own re-classification of some cameras here... I know it will get confusing if people go by JLP but do we have enough experts here to create our own system. One thing with print medium is once it's out, it's set in stone unless next edition comes out. And good thing about having a web site that we can easily change stuff right away.

Vlad

Reply author: Vlad

Replied on: 20080530232932

Jim, I still have 5 visible screws on my 1e.. I don't think these screws mean much... they probably went away with them sometime in mid-production of 1e... My serial # is somewhere above in this forum thread.

Vlad.

Reply author: James McGee

Replied on: 20080530235757

Hi Vlad,

As far as I know, (and I could be wrong) if a Fed 1 has only three visible screws in the base, then it is definately a Fed 1 e, assuming that other parameters are correct, engraving, etc.
I assume that there are also quite a few of these cameras with five visible screws, so they are also genuine Fed 1 e, providing other criteria matches of course.
I really can't imagine that anybody would try to fake one of these cameras when could just as easily fake a "Red Flag" and ask a much higher price.
My particular Fed 1 e has only three visible screws in the base, and to be perfectly honest I would never have noticed but for reading about this in Princelle and later checking just out of interest and curiosity. JLP himself says that only some Fed 1 e camera baseplates show this difference, but he doesn't say how many.
Cheers,Jim.[:)][:)][:)]

Reply author: nathandayton

Replied on: 20080531051048

You are all trying to make the FED factory fit the western mold. With distinct hard transitions at specific times!

It was more like: Well we still have parts so lets "waste not want not" and use them all before we change to the new design! Or, we already know how to meet production goals with this design! Lets not take a chance on missing the goals until we have to!

Let me give a concrete example. Final QC for the Pentacon Six was done at the camera shop not the factory in the DDR. When you bought one, the shop checked that it was fully functional in front of you before they sold it to you. Compare this to modern cameras where they hand you the box, batteries and say good bye.

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20080604091225


Hello,

I agree with you about that question of screws, Nathan. It was easy to mix bodies and baseplates at the factory and it is always the case now.

About the period 1941-46, there is another passport, always at DVD's, which is very interesting and puzzling. It is the one of a 1d, signed the 18/06/1941, serial number: 168018 for a "normal" 1d(non S). Previously, we had discussed of a 1eS # 180024, passport signed the 31/07/1941.

The substraction is easy: 12000 passports in 45 days, 270 passports in a day... It seems impossible, but we know absolutely nothing about the local and historical circumstances.

Or one of the passports is a fake, but I don't think so. And the 1S don't have a special range: they were always numbered amongst the regular NKVD.

Personally, I always think that our hypothesis (1e made in Kharkov till # c. 180000) is valid. The factory probably signed in a hurry the passports for all the finished cameras (perhaps even for non finished ones). But where did they go? Certainly, they were not sold. To the Red army, perhaps? To be sure, we should know the precise history of these last days...

Any idea about that period of history?
Amitiés. Jacques.

Reply author: Vlad

Replied on: 20080609200523

One of the major obstacles in find out such things for Westerners is the knowledge of Russian language.. Well fortunately I don't have such impairment since it is my first language.. If someone like Alain can find out who the contact was that JLP talked to on FED factory and if there is a way to get in touch with someone who used to work there, I would be very happy to call them on the phone and interview them... I just need some leads.. maybe soon I will call FED factory itself and try to find out who may be the person who can help me about getting some information who is hopefully still alive..

Vlad

Reply author: James McGee

Replied on: 20080614042016

Hello all,
An interesting Fed-1 on e-bay:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Camera-FED-NKVD-Perfect-condition-Number-174341_W0QQitemZ150229213092QQihZ005QQcategoryZ15234QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262

Accordiing to the engraving and the serial number this should be a Berdsk!
Regards, Jim.

Reply author: James McGee

Replied on: 20080614050741

BTW, In my earlier post regarding the three visible screws as opposed to five in the base plate of some FED Berdsk's perhaps I didn't explain as clearly as I might have.
As far as I can gather some Berdsk's have only three visible screws in the baseplate, and other Fed Berdsk's have five visible screws. The three visible screws applies only to the Fed Berdsk, and no other Fed-1, so if only three screws are visible, and other parameters are correct then I believe that the camera is without doubt a Berdsk.
Of course there are also some Fed Berdsk with five screws in the baseplate just as all other Fed-1's.
And just to confuse matters more, we don't even really know for sure if these cameras were ever assembled at Berdsk.
Will the Fed mystery ever end????
Regards, Jim[:)][:)][:)]

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20080614065340


Hi Jim,
As for me, I hope it's a never ending story. It is why I collect these cameras!
Amitiés. Jacques.

Reply author: James McGee

Replied on: 20080614073923

Hi Jacques,
I couldn't agree more!
Regards, Jim[:)]

Reply author: Zoom

Replied on: 20080615043242

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by James McGee</i>
<br />Accordiing to the engraving and the serial number this should be a Berdsk!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
"NKVD"?... Not made in Berdsk.
From February 1941 the FED plant was under heading by NKAP.

Reply author: James McGee

Replied on: 20080615051318

Hi Zoom,
I'm not quite sure what you mean, but the engraving on the camera that I referred to mentions neither "NKVD, or "NKAP".
I could be wrong, but as far as I am aware the engraving and the serial number of this camera means it is a so called Fed-1e "Berdsk"
If I have misunderstood your post please explain further.
Best wishes, Jim[:)]

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/Fed-174xxx.jpg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/Fed-174xxx.jpg

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20080615111227


Hi Jim,
Zoom was referring to the title of the seller: "Fed NKVD". This # 174341 is not a NKVD, of course.
It is an "e", probably not "Berdsk"!

Amitiés. Jacques.

Reply author: James McGee

Replied on: 20080615121620

Hi Jacques,
Thanks for the information, and forgive my ignorance of e-bay sellers. In fact I never looked at e-bay before joining this forum, and now I just made my first purchase, a FED lateral viewfinder.
With regard to the Fed-1e #174341, I bow to your supertor knowledge. I had assumed that it was probably a "Berdsk" because of the number and the engraving. Now that I check JLP he says that the Fed-1e "Berdsk" spans serial numbers 173600/174000, and #183000 upwards. So I suppose the serial number of 174341 is a little high.
Best wishes, Jim[:)]

Reply author: James McGee

Replied on: 20080615123141

Hello again Jacques,
I have just now checked the WIKI, and Fed-1e #174341 is actually entered there as a "Berdsk". In fact there are quite a lot of other cameras with much higher serial numbers also entered there.
Please let us know your thoughts.
Best wishes, Jim.

Reply author: Zoom

Replied on: 20080615133619

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jacques M.</i>
<br />Zoom was referring to the title of the seller: "Fed NKVD".
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Yes. (I have a problems with an eBay pages).

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20080615134422

Yes Jim.
No problem with JLP about 1e, with numbers from c. 173600 to 184000.
But in this very topic, we had too discussed about the town where they were made.
Can they all be named "Berdsk" if it appears that some of them were made in Kharkov, perhaps up to # c. 180000?

That is THE question! Not by Shakespeare![:D]

Amitiés. Jacques.

Reply author: James McGee

Replied on: 20080615221907

Hi Jacques,
Once again I agree with what you say. I don't think anyone really knows how many Fed-1e were assembled in Berdsk, even if any were!!!
I think the term "Berdsk" has now just become a familiar name for the 1-e, pretty much in the same way that "Fedka" has become a familiar name for the early Fed-1.
These mysteries will keep us guessing for years come!
Best wishes, Jim.[:)][:)][:)]

Reply author: Niko80

Replied on: 20130731205349

My three FED-1e, two of which are FED-S, all have 5 screws in the baseplate.

There is currently a late FED1-e camera #182948 on ebay which also has 5 screws.
http://www.ebay.at/itm/FED-NKVD-Type-1e-BERDSK-Rare-Russian-35mm-Rangefinder-Camera-182948-/360706589152?pt=US_Vintage_Cameras&hash=item53fbc9c1e0

Another one, #176596 seems to have only 3 screws but it's a little hard to see.
http://www.ebay.at/itm/USSR-Soviet-Collectible-FED-1-Berdsk-35mm-RF-camera-with-FED-3-5-50-lens-EXC-/390554007760?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item5aeed538d0


I found something else - we have two consecutive FED1-e serials, one of which is a FED-S.:

#174290, sold on eBay
#174291 (1/1000 speed - Fed-1S), sold on eBay

Regards,
Christian

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20130801084815


My 1e-s have five screws too.
So, we are not far from s/n 184000 now. Interesting...

The two consecutive serial numbers are interesting too. So it would be confirmed that the S-s were made in the normal production, "in the middle of" the other cameras. To be sure, we should have the s/n 174289 or 174292!... I personally have two cameras with consecutive numbers, an S and a NKVD c series.

Jacques.

Reply author: ricale

Replied on: 20130801110032

I have 2 Fed 1e, all with 5 screws.
1e n. 174389
1eS n. 174836
Vittorio

Reply author: Niko80

Replied on: 20130810180852

It would be interesting to know if the absence of the 2 screws is limited to a certain serial range. Please check your cameras.

Also, could you submit your lens numbers to the wiki?
I don't know if it may help but any further information on these cameras is helpful.

Check the engravings on the baseplate of this FED1e #179708:
http://www.fotoua.com/4colcam.php?seek2=34&seek1=28&usl=&usl1=&rd=4&st=7&collector=1&stat=

Could anyone translate what it says?
I read something about 41-45 which would suggest a post-war date, at least for the engraving.

Regards,
Christian

Reply author: nightphoto

Replied on: 20130810214224

I have a FED-1e which also has the five screws. The lens that this camera came with is a FED 'STEMAR'No. 47, one of the original series or first version of the fake stereo lens. I have added it to the WIKI and I'm afraid I have messed up the nice columns by doing so. Of course this lens is not the original lens and so is meaningless to the lens numbers.

Regards, Bill

Reply author: Niko80

Replied on: 20130811153023

Thanks, Bill!

Please continue to submit more data, the wiki can easily be repaired, that's no problem.[:)]

Could anyone please transcribe the base-plate engravings I mentioned in the link above?

Regards,
Christian

Reply author: ChrisS

Replied on: 20130815223854

I have 2 Fed-1e, both with 5 screws in the base plate.

s/n 175475 lens 174208/14
s/n 183885 lens 180983/2 12

I find this Berdsk question very interesting - to me it gives real character to the cameras. In my opinion the question of what was made where is almost insoluble (I say almost - we may yet!) for a number of reasons.

1 - I would expect that any unused Kharkov passports would be used up in Berdsk before printing new Berdsk ones, assuming they took the passports to Berdsk - they may have destroyed them before the evacuation, or left them behind.
2 - We do not know that the date of the 'S' s/n 180024 is the real date - the evacuation was a big upheaval and they may have just completed a whole bunch of passports for all completed or near completed cameras at any time prior to or after the evacuation - I am very suspicious of passport dates at the best of times, my guess is they were probably done in batches pretty much as and when.
3 - The Red Flag cameras were a new build (completely different vulcanite amongst other things) and may have been produced at Berdsk - but the Berdsk passport for one of them I would discount for the same reasons as 1 above, ie they would use up the Berdsk ones before printing more Kharkov ones after the return. Could the Red Flags have been produced at the KMZ factory? It seems rather unlikely they would set up a complete production line with new parts just to make the Red Flags when they would soon be returning to Kharkov.

My two Fed-1e are absolutely identical, and I also have a very late 1d s/n 173012 which is also identical apart from the engraving. I would say that both my 1e are made from the same parts as the 1d, which would probably mean that all 3 used parts made at Kharkov before the evacuation. It is interesting that no 183885 still seems to use Kharkov parts and it is the second highest s/n recorded for a 1e.

I did a bit of passport research a while ago (I can't find my records at the moment) but I remember being highly sceptical about that date for 180024. I do not think that we will ever be able to say which cameras were assembled in Berdsk without further documentary evidence. We need many more passports from this period - not very likely, although they must have produced something at Berdsk otherwise there would be no need for a Berdsk passport. Too many imponderables to be sure of anything, but it's fun trying.

ATB ChrisS.

Reply author: Vlad

Replied on: 20130816100812

Hello Christopher,

I'm sorry I have to warn everyone it's just my subjective opinion, this topic of Berdsk cameras bothers me a lot and I've been doing a lot of thinking regarding these cameras and reading about the WWII period in Soviet Union. The more I read about how things were during the war the more I am beginning to think that this camera was manufactured in Kharkov either before and or after the move to Berdsk or both, since it doesn't seem likely during those hard times in extreme shortages of military equipment and ammunition when all the factories retooled to manufacture production for war, the Berdsk factory went through all the trouble to keep making civilian cameras that the war could easily do without... it's just not very probable, almost unrealistic when you have all women and children working 24/7 making tank parts, shells, bomb, grenades, bullets everywhere in USSR, you have all of the sudden FED cameras made..

Your opinions are welcome.

Cheers,
Vlad

Reply author: nightphoto

Replied on: 20130816121155

Hi Vlad,

I agree with you 100%. There is really no indication anywhere that any parts were made at Berdsk, and in my opinion, there was probably the assembly of parts that already existed, brought along from the evacuation at Kharkov.

The mysteries behind undocumented or lost histories concerning the Soviet cameras are intriguing, but collectors do have a tendency not to always understand and put themselves in the place and time and imagine (or learn through reading, etc. as you are doing, Vlad) what was really going on. This was a very hard and tragic time for the Russian people in general.

Very well said, Vlad.

Regards, Bill

Reply author: Vlad

Replied on: 20130816135112

Thank you Bill for supporting my line of thought, and that's exactly what we can do is recreate the situation to the best of our knowledge but I know that I can't probably even imagine the harsh reality. One other thing I was thinking too that it was probably a very different factory also once it moved to Berdsk since most likely most of the boys (I'm sure girls too) working in the commune were called up to serve in the war, so production of FED was probably mostly taken over by local Berdsk population, losing the camera works expertise in the process.. once again just speculation for discussion's sake..

Also I found an article where one collector claims that BRZ (Berdsk Mechanical Factory) was the factory that accepted FED in Berdsk during evacuation and that 500-1000 FED Berdsk were made there as well as FED-B - a Leica III copy, but the journalist writing the article didn't find any examples of the Berdsk war-time made cameras in the local museum. Here's an auto-translated fragment of the article:

Publisher of the "Wedge" Vadim Komarov collects cameras. An online auction "Molotok" he bought the camera "FED-B", made in the walls of Berdsk radio factory during World War II. Until 1941, the production of cameras has been established at the Kharkov plant, which at the beginning of the war were evacuated to Berdsk. It was believed that the production of cameras stopped. However, Vadim Komarov says that in 1941-1942 the plant produced 800-1000 cameras. According to some reports, beginning in Berdsk produced model "B" - a copy of the camera «Leica III», which adds long-term exposure.

Abbreviation FED means Felix Dzerzhinsky. The first models were produced in 1934. At the end of the 30s produced the so-called second model, it "FED-C" or "commander FED", which was supplied with the lens "FED" 2/50, the shutter speed range has been increased - added shutter speed 1/1000 sec. C 1938 to 1941 produced a modification "FED-B" or "the general's FED", with extended excerpts from 1 sec to 1/1000 sec.

<u>In Berdsk Historical Museum of Art no models were found made in Berdsk during the war.</u> Chief curator of funds Tatiana Ovchinnikov stressed that the special value of the fund collection are "FED" and "press photographer" pre-war years. One of the exhibits found in the garage, took out one berdchaninu inherited. He was there collecting dust forgotten by all. The most surprising is that the camera is a mechanism that allows you to stretch, like a concertina mechanism. Thus conducted focus is activated. "Fotokor-1" was produced from 1930 to 1941. These cameras have become the primary means of shooting by courtesy of the Great Patriotic War.

http://www.kurer-sreda.ru/2012/04/11/64256

Reply author: Vlad

Replied on: 20130816135859

Another fragment from a different article:

&#1057; &#1085;&#1072;&#1095;&#1072;&#1083;&#1086;&#1084; &#1042;&#1077;&#1083;&#1080;&#1082;&#1086;&#1081; &#1054;&#1090;&#1077;&#1095;&#1077;&#1089;&#1090;&#1074;&#1077;&#1085;&#1085;&#1086;&#1081; &#1074;&#1086;&#1081;&#1085;&#1099;, &#1083;&#1077;&#1090;&#1086;&#1084; 1941 &#1075;&#1086;&#1076;&#1072; &#1074; &#1075;&#1086;&#1088;&#1086;&#1076; &#1041;&#1077;&#1088;&#1076;&#1089;&#1082; &#1073;&#1099;&#1083;&#1086; &#1101;&#1074;&#1072;&#1082;&#1091;&#1080;&#1088;&#1086;&#1074;&#1072;&#1085;&#1086; &#1076;&#1074;&#1072; &#1079;&#1072;&#1074;&#1086;&#1076;&#1072; &#1080;&#1079; &#1041;&#1077;&#1088;&#1076;&#1103;&#1085;&#1089;&#1082;&#1072; &#1080; &#1061;&#1072;&#1088;&#1100;&#1082;&#1086;&#1074;&#1072; &#1074;&#1099;&#1087;&#1091;&#1089;&#1082;&#1072;&#1074;&#1096;&#1080;&#1077; &#1076;&#1086; &#1101;&#1090;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1079;&#1085;&#1072;&#1084;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1090;&#1099;&#1077; &#1092;&#1086;&#1090;&#1086;&#1072;&#1087;&#1087;&#1072;&#1088;&#1072;&#1090;&#1099; ''&#1060;&#1069;&#1044;'' (&#1079;&#1072;&#1074;&#1086;&#1076; &#1080;&#1084;. &#1044;&#1079;&#1077;&#1088;&#1078;&#1080;&#1085;&#1089;&#1082;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086;) &#1080; &#1082;&#1086;&#1084;&#1087;&#1083;&#1077;&#1082;&#1090;&#1091;&#1102;&#1097;&#1080;&#1077;. &#1042; &#1041;&#1077;&#1088;&#1076;&#1089;&#1082;&#1077;, &#1085;&#1072; &#1073;&#1072;&#1079;&#1077; &#1101;&#1090;&#1080;&#1093; &#1079;&#1072;&#1074;&#1086;&#1076;&#1086;&#1074; &#1073;&#1099;&#1083;&#1086; &#1086;&#1088;&#1075;&#1072;&#1085;&#1080;&#1079;&#1086;&#1074;&#1072;&#1085;&#1086; &#1087;&#1088;&#1086;&#1080;&#1079;&#1074;&#1086;&#1076;&#1089;&#1090;&#1074;&#1086; &#1090;&#1086;&#1087;&#1083;&#1080;&#1074;&#1085;&#1099;&#1093; &#1072;&#1075;&#1088;&#1077;&#1075;&#1072;&#1090;&#1086;&#1074; &#1076;&#1083;&#1103; &#1076;&#1074;&#1080;&#1075;&#1072;&#1090;&#1077;&#1083;&#1077;&#1081; &#1080;&#1089;&#1090;&#1088;&#1077;&#1073;&#1080;&#1090;&#1077;&#1083;&#1077;&#1081;
&#1048;&#1051;-2 &#1080; &#1086;&#1087;&#1090;&#1080;&#1095;&#1077;&#1089;&#1082;&#1080;&#1093; &#1087;&#1088;&#1080;&#1094;&#1077;&#1083;&#1086;&#1074; &#1076;&#1083;&#1103; &#1090;&#1072;&#1085;&#1082;&#1086;&#1074; &#1058;-34 &#1080; &#1074;&#1086;&#1077;&#1085;&#1085;&#1099;&#1093; &#1089;&#1072;&#1084;&#1086;&#1083;&#1077;&#1090;&#1086;&#1074;. &#1042; 1946 &#1075;&#1086;&#1076;&#1091; &#1079;&#1072;&#1074;&#1086;&#1076; &#1080;&#1084;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080; &#1044;&#1079;&#1077;&#1088;&#1078;&#1080;&#1085;&#1089;&#1082;&#1086;&#1075;&#1086; &#1073;&#1099;&#1083; &#1088;&#1077;&#1101;&#1074;&#1072;&#1082;&#1091;&#1080;&#1088;&#1086;&#1074;&#1072;&#1085;, &#1072; &#1085;&#1072; &#1073;&#1072;&#1079;&#1077; &#1086;&#1089;&#1090;&#1072;&#1074;&#1096;&#1077;&#1075;&#1086;&#1089;&#1103; &#1079;&#1072;&#1074;&#1086;&#1076;&#1072;, &#1085;&#1072; &#1086;&#1089;&#1074;&#1086;&#1073;&#1086;&#1076;&#1080;&#1074;&#1096;&#1080;&#1093;-
&#1089;&#1103; &#1087;&#1083;&#1086;&#1097;&#1072;&#1076;&#1103;&#1093;, &#1088;&#1077;&#1096;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1077;&#1084; &#1087;&#1088;&#1072;&#1074;&#1080;&#1090;&#1077;&#1083;&#1100;&#1089;&#1090;&#1074;&#1086;&#1084; &#1057;&#1057;&#1057;&#1056; &#1086;&#1090; 10 &#1086;&#1082;&#1090;&#1103;&#1073;&#1088;&#1103; 1946 &#1075;&#1086;&#1076;&#1072; &#1073;&#1099;&#1083; &#1086;&#1088;&#1075;&#1072;&#1085;&#1080;&#1079;&#1086;&#1074;&#1072;&#1085; &#1088;&#1072;&#1076;&#1080;&#1086;&#1079;&#1072;&#1074;&#1086;&#1076;.

Since the beginning of the Great Patriotic War, in the summer of 1941 in the city Berdsk two factories were evacuated from Berdyansk and Kharkov produced before the famous'' cameras FED'' (Plant. Dzerzhinsky), and accessories. In Berdsk and on the basis of these plants was organized by the production of fuel assemblies for engine fighter
IL-2 and optical sights for T-34 tanks and military aircraft. In 1946, the plant was named after Dzerzhinsky unevacuated, and on the basis of the remaining plant, freed-up areas, the decision by the Government of the USSR on October 10, 1946 was organized into Radio Works.

http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/28/162

Reply author: Niko80

Replied on: 20130816155703

The way I see it we have absolutely no proof that even a single camera was produced in Berdsk.
This is why I have renamed the corresponding wiki entry to "FED 1e"

I have to agree with Vlad, I am sure there were other priorities than producing cameras back then.

However, as the factory in Berdsk never suffered from war-time damage, the probability that some documents survived should be much higher than in the case of the Kharkov factory. If we could establish a contact to someone from the Berdsk Museum maybe they could have a look at the city archives to see if some documents have survived.

By the way - has anyone ever tried to contact someone from the modern FED-Factory? I don't know how much interest the company has in their own history but it wouldn't be surprising if they do know a lot more than we do.

Chris, I have added the lens numbers of your cameras to the wiki, I hope you don't mind.

Regards,
Christian

Reply author: geoffox23

Replied on: 20130816170433

Hello all

Pages 379 and 380 in the 1200 Cameras book refer to this topic, with some specific time frames and numbers quoted, so I assume that the authors should be able to provide some references.

I cannot trust my google-translated pages to be correct, so would be interested to hear others' thoughts on this data.

Cheers
Geoff

Reply author: Vlad

Replied on: 20130817102321

Thanks Geoff for the reference, I looked up those paragraphs and here's that Suglob/Kochergin/Shaternik say on this topic (summarizing): From February to October 1942 the assembly of cameras continues in Berdsk. Supposedly Berdsk cameras started somewhere after No. 165xxx until 173xxx in quantities of 8000 units. In 1943 the kombinat moved under NKAP-SSSP (People's Commissariat of Aviation Manufacture) umbrella raher than NKVD-SSSR and was renamed into "Zavod"(factory), and cameras made from 1946 in Berdsk had engraving "...Zavod of F.E.Dzerzhinsky".

Cheers,
Vlad

Reply author: Vlad

Replied on: 20130817103333

Also an interesting classification extract from 1200 Cameras book - FED NKAP (Red Flag) is technically FED-1f and not the encircled FED logo one, because it's the next one in the line that was released after the "Berdsk" when factory returned to Kharkov and made 1800 red flags..

Cheers,
Vlad

Reply author: RCCCUK

Replied on: 20130817112031

I thought you might be interested in this photograph from the book, 'On the Wings of History - 75 Years of the FED Factory 1927-2002'.

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1782013_fed photo.jpg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1782013_fed photo.jpg
I believe that the caption reads, ' Assembling the first postwar FED cameras. Berdsk, February 1946'.


David.

Reply author: Vlad

Replied on: 20130817112923

Now THAT is the first more or less concrete document we see. Thank you David!

Best regards,
Vlad

Reply author: Niko80

Replied on: 20130817180409

Nice!
Too bad we can't see what type of FED1 is shown in the photo.

As for the comments in the "1200 Cameras" book, this would mean that the cameras produced at Berdsk would actually have been late FED"d" CCCP-NKVD and all FED 1 "e" were produced after the war.
I am confused...
Are there any references cited?

Also I'd like to point out that I am now the owner of the FED"e" #180024 with the corresponding documents. If there is any information I can provide just let me know.

Regards,
Christian

Reply author: nightphoto

Replied on: 20130817182041

Nice photo David. I think it may read "Assembly of the first postwar cameras, FED" and so not exactly meaning that it is a photo of the 'assembling' of the cameras, but that it is a photo of the first group of postwar cameras. But, no doubt at Berdsk, if the caption is correct. These guys don't look like the people who do the assembly work, but more like the bosses or executives at the factory who are showing a group of their first post-war production. I suspect that Vlad is correct and that although the manufactured parts were evacuated from Kharkov to Berdsk early in the war, they probably sat around through most of the war, and then camera production (from the Kharkov-made parts) was started again after the war, and the first cameras made were at Berdsk where the parts were located. so, they had the pre-war FED-1e logo on them since that is how the rangefinder housings were engraved while still in Kharkov in the early 1940's.

They look quite pleased to have FED cameras being produced again, no doubt a difficult task as many of the skilled assemblers before the war, had been killed or otherwise not able to work for FED from the results of the war.

Regards, Bill

Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20130818053025

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Niko80</i>
<br />There is currently a late FED1-e camera #182948 on ebay which also has 5 screws.
http://www.ebay.at/itm/FED-NKVD-Type-1e-BERDSK-Rare-Russian-35mm-Rangefinder-Camera-182948-/360706589152?pt=US_Vintage_Cameras&hash=item53fbc9c1e0

Another one, #176596 seems to have only 3 screws but it's a little hard to see.
http://www.ebay.at/itm/USSR-Soviet-Collectible-FED-1-Berdsk-35mm-RF-camera-with-FED-3-5-50-lens-EXC-/390554007760?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item5aeed538d0

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Unbelievable, it seems that both cams got the vulcanite fresh painted and both are still on ebay. Nothing to wonder about, no collector wants those painted ones.

Then you have to think about how they paint them. Some old paint might not tolerate new paint. Even the old vulcanite might not tolerate some new paint. They are simply different chemicals and will react by time.
Destroying those wonderful cams.

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20130818082022

I have not opened the forum since some days, and all is running away!

So, just some "technical" ideas: it really seems to me that the separation due to the war passes between 1e-s and NKAP.

There is no distinction between the second series of 1d-s and 1e-s: all is the same, including the quality of construction.

NKAP-s show some differences, for what we know: generally poor quality of chrome, stretched vulcanite, 1a or 1b buttons, yellow pale/yellow rangefinder, 1d belt and 1c/1d brass shutter box... As if Fed had been obliged to make a series whereas it had not the convenient parts. It makes me think of remaining parts in boards which are assembled in urgency...

The metallurgy of the cover is not always the same. Some have neat angles (like on the 1d or 1e), others are blunt. And many have traces of a vice (probably to hold it when engraving). So, a variability which does not help to know the genuineness... Mine looks genuine, but two letters are not engraved on the cover...

The first 1f are in the continuity of these NKAP-s concerning the general poor quality and the special vulcanite, for example. And as they are very rare, one can wonder if all the series was really made... As for the brass shutter box, we find it up to the s/n around 225000(the aluminium ones were the rule between c. 115000/183000: no shortage of aluminium before the war).

I don't know Soviet history enough to go farther. The logic would be that all the 1e were made before the war, and NKAP after. Or the last part of 1e mounted at KMZ's as training before the official production: surely impossible, even if the comparison between a 1948 Fed-Zorki and a 1e is astonishing: they look like twins...

Anyway, happy of the new turn for this topic!

Amitiés. Jacques.






Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20130818083820

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by James McGee</i>
<br />As far as I can gather some Berdsk's have only three visible screws in the baseplate, and other Fed Berdsk's have five visible screws. The three visible screws applies only to the Fed Berdsk, and no other Fed-1, so if only three screws are visible, and other parameters are correct then I believe that the camera is without doubt a Berdsk.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The bottom plate is the easiest thing to change on a camera.
Fotoua.com has the Zorki-1 with simplified bottom plate (plate with 3 screws) listed around s/n #51000, but there are many many other Zorkis far behind #51000 with 5 instead 3 screws.
If you call a Fed with 3 screws "Berdsk", I call them "Zorki".

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20130818111407


In the JLP, it is said that the NKAP s/n 201280 was delivered with a passport printed at Berdsk, signed the 19 of august 1946...
Would it be impossible that the NKAP were in fact the real Berdsk? It's only an idea, probably crazy...

Jacques.

Reply author: RCCCUK

Replied on: 20130819104706

Having found the photograph above, I thought it might be a good idea to try and translate the accompanying pages. It is taking quite some time, using Google translate, but here is the first part:

'Back in May 1945 the administration decided to restore the production of cameras. The case seemed extremely difficult and almost hopeless. There were many reasons. 'Debugged' production was transferred to Krasnogorsk in late 1942. Special equipment, technology, materials, work in progress and most importantly, most of the optical experts and highly skilled workers were sent to the new location. By 1945, in Krasnogorsk, they had already organised work and started production of cameras. The design of the cameras was as the FED. The anecdotal version of the fist KMZ camera was called FED-Zorki. It was only in 1949, after a number of design changes and modernisation that the small format camera, FED, got its own name, Zorki. A large contribution of the creation of the camera came from the engineers and technicians of the Kharkov plant, M V Strelitsov, A R Trirog, M W Ulanovski and others. Government decision on restoring camera production at plant No. 296 FED was issued in June 1945. However, to organise production in a short time was not possible. We had to start from scratch. Firstly, we needed technical documentation. In July and August drawings were ready. We had to spend a lot of work on pre-production: restore the technical processes to produce tooling and special cutting and measuring instruments. All this, as well as being in the war years was required in a short time. Changes were made in the production structure. In January 1946 workshops 18 and 49 fabricated parts and assemblies of the first post-war camera. For the production of optical lenses there was a special section in workshop 17. At the same time, workshop 23 started to work as an assembly plant. In the fist ten days of February they completed ten cameras. Tests showed good results. We had every reason to believe that the design and fabrication of parts and components met our technical requirements. From the prototypes we went on to serial production. This required additional production capacity and there was not enough. Output as always I such situations required more hard work. The task of making the camera parts got under way. In the production plan of the second quarter of 1946 a small quantity was scheduled, but the task was not easy. To increase quality requirements special equipment, not standard machines, were needed and also skilled workers were required.'


Maybe this poses rather more questions than it answers. When I get the time, I will translate a little more.

David.

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20130819114400

Many thanks, David, for the photo and for the translation!

If I understand well, Fed equipment and technology were transferred to Krasnogorsk in 1942. Till now, that fact had not been said clearly. Or I did not know... Anyway, to find identical shutter boxes on Fed 1d/e and 1948 Fed-Zorki is not a hazard...

Really interested too by what is said to resume the production (at Fed-Kharkov, I suppose?) and by the dates. They did not say which cameras were made first, alas... Do we have a way to find that?

Jacques.

Reply author: Vlad

Replied on: 20130819135741

David, thank you for the translation, if you don't mind please post the original Russian text as well, very often Google translates different language nuances differently which can mean something opposite. Thanks again,

Vlad.

Reply author: RCCCUK

Replied on: 20130820063627

Hi Vlad,

As requested, here is the complete original text.

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2082013_page 1a.jpg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2082013_page 1a.jpg

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2082013_page 2a.jpg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2082013_page 2a.jpg

I look forward to seeing any corrections or improvements to the Google translation.


David.

Reply author: Vlad

Replied on: 20130820093824

Thank you very much, David, your translation is pretty much spot-on. Here are the main points we get from this:

<ul><li>No camera producing equipment was moved to Berdsk </li>
<li>All equipment and most of the specialist staff was moved to KMZ resulting in FED-Zorkis</li>
<li>No cameras were produced during the War </li>
<li>Camera production in Berdsk only started in Jan 1946</li>
<li>Camera produciton equipment had to be reconstructed from scratch in Berdsk plant</li>
<li>Berdsk plant supposedly made cameras full throttle (at 79.1% capacity due to substandard equipment) up until unevacuation in October 1946(?).</li>
</ul>

Questions that still loom:
<ul><li>Which exact cameras were these? FED-1e's or NKAP?</li>
<li>I'm personally still unclear regarding timeline of the renaming of FED into "Zavod of F.E.Dzerzhinsky", according to Suglob/Shaternik this happened in 1943 which does put FED-1e under the 1946 production timeline rather than NKAP.. lots of conflicting information</li>
</ul>

Reply author: Niko80

Replied on: 20130820185817

Thank you for summarizing the interesting facts, Vlad!


If it's true that camera producing equipment at Berdsk was different from the one used in Kharkov, it seems unlikely to me that some 1e were produced in Kharkov and some in Berdsk, as all 1e cameras look pretty much the same.

If we trust the passports we have which show 1e were made in Kharkov before the war and NKAP in Berdsk after the war I'll vote for the NKAP as these cameras look significantly different.

Is it likely that about 2000 cameras could be produced in Berdsk in the timeframe of 8-10 months?

Also I am a little confused - if neither machinery nor personnel were evacuated to Berdsk, then what else?

Regards,
Christian

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20130821030445


Vlad,

Fed was given the Red Flag award the 6th of september 1945, by the JLP. It would be logical that a limited series of NKAP-s were made immediately. No problem if it is with spare parts, Christian. So, a passport of august 1946 seems correct.

On the other hand, the same JLP says that NKAP-s were made in 1948...[:)]

A specialist of this period should be of great use to compare History and what we know... Perhaps Zoom could help ?

Amitiés. Jacques.



Reply author: RCCCUK

Replied on: 20130822024742

I am of the opinion that FED NKAP cameras were produced at Berdsk. After all, the Berdsk factory was definitely designated as an NKAP facility.
Does anyone have a passport for a 1e FED that definitely shows that it was manufactured in Berdsk? If equipment, personnel and parts were evacuated to Krasnogork, could it be that in the run up to the FED-Zorki production in 1948 that the FED 1e was assembled there? After all, the FED book states the Krasnogork had started production in 1945.

David.

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20130822170957


Thanks, David. I completely agree with you.

Jacques.

Reply author: Niko80

Replied on: 20130916192512

I've updated and extended the FED1'e' wiki article, please tell me what you think!

Also have a look on the commemorative engraving on the base-plate of #179708

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/5766/eunr.jpg


http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/4119/5mkz.jpg



I read - or rather guess:
<i>
In commemoration of the war
41-45
from B/r 16501
Temniky
B. i.</i>

The first 2 lines are self-explaining and mean the engraving must have been done after 1945.
But what about the rest? Can anyone make sense of the abbreviations <i></i>B/r and number <i>16501</i>?
I guess last 2 lines mean the camera was presented to someone named <i>B. I. Temnik</i>.

Regards,
Christian

Reply author: Niko80

Replied on: 20131008145806

No one?

Reply author: fedka

Replied on: 20131012224635

&lt;&lt;B/r and number 16501?&gt;&gt;

That is for Russian V/Ch, Voinskaya Chast', or Military Base, 16501 is the base's number.

Reply author: Niko80

Replied on: 20131013153100

Awesome, thank you Yuri!

The US Defense Technical Information Center states:
<i>Voinskaya chast' [military unit] — is an organizationally self-sufficient tactical and administrative entity, in all services of the Armed Forces, maintained in accordance with an established shtat [Table of Organization and Equipment]. Voinskaya chast' applies to all regiments, ships of 1st, 2nd, 3rd rank, separate battalions (artillery battalions and air squadrons) not part of a regiment, and even separate companies not part of a battalion and regiment. The term "voinskaya chast'" is used when the actual name of a unit, which consists of its given number, shtat designation (if one is given), and names of its state awards (if the unit has been awarded state decorations), is implied.
Voyskovaya chast' [military unit] — is a conditional, numerical designation of military units (ships), formations and establishments of the Soviet Army, Navy, USSR MVD forces, and border guards of the USSR Committee of State Security.
It is its official designation and has legal force attached to the registering of official documentation. The term "voyskovaya chast'" is used in mutual relations of units and establishments between themselves, with civil departments, organizations, enterprises and private citizens, and even for addressing and sending of all sorts of correspondence and military goods. Units and establishments of the Soviet Army and Navy stationed in the territory of the USSR have a conditional designation "voyskovaya chast'", and those stationed out- side the USSR, "voyskovaya chast'—polevaya pochta [field post office]".</i>

So this would mean that <i>voinskaya chast</i> can be any sort of military unit. I wonder if it would be possible to link the number to a certain unit.

Regards,
Christian

Reply author: fedka

Replied on: 20131013212408

In theory it would be possible to find out the V/Ch location by number. Locations and numbers were classified in the Soviet times, but with so much time passed, this info should be open. 'Should be' is my opinion.
This organization most likely has your answer, and they do have an English web site

http://eng.mil.ru/en/archival_service/central.htm


Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20160412072836

We know the passport of #180024, dated 31/July/1941, long time after the war started on 22/June/1941. The battle of Kiev was from 23/August/1941 till 26/September/1941. It's amazing that they were still producing cameras at the end of July. To write a passport and sign it just takes a minute. It doesn't make sense to write a passport in advance because once you want to package the camera you need to search for the passport. I think it's safe to assume that #180024 was packaged on 31/July/1941, a Thursday.

It is mentioned that A.Braslavskiy has another passport of #175116 from summer 1941. It would be interesting to know the real date because we could calculate how long it took to produce nearly 5000 cameras, and we could calculate how many days it would take to produce the rest of the known Fed-1e. Is #183892 the highest known serial for a Fed-1e?

After the war the last samples of Fed-1e might be assembled and the Red Flag too. Photohistory.ru mentioned that 1316 cameras were produced in 1948. Since the passport of #201280 is from 19/August/1946, those 1316 cameras can't be all Red Flags. The first Fed-1f might have been produced in 1948.

Reply author: levonsa

Replied on: 20160417162404

FED #210033 was made 10 july 1948. Coll. D.Bessonov

Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20160417174859

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by levonsa</i>
<br />FED #210033 was made 10 july 1948. Coll. D.Bessonov
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That's interesting.
So Fed produced Fed-Zorkis with 1/1000 speed together with KMZ in Krasnogorsk
and at the same time produced Fed-1f with 1/500 speed in Kharkov.

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20160418051700


Thanks, Alexey.[:)]
Could you give too the address of the passport?
I suppose that this very early Fed 1f has a special vulcanite?

Amitiés. Jacques.

Reply author: levonsa

Replied on: 20160420153031

I will ask permission from the owner to publish his picture.

Reply author: levonsa

Replied on: 20160422172502

http://www.ussrphoto.com/resize/resize_image.aspx?ImgWd=800&IptFl=/UserContent/2242016_1.jpg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2242016_1.jpg

http://www.ussrphoto.com/resize/resize_image.aspx?ImgWd=800&IptFl=/UserContent/2242016_2.jpg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2242016_2.jpg

http://www.ussrphoto.com/resize/resize_image.aspx?ImgWd=800&IptFl=/UserContent/2242016_3.jpg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2242016_3.jpg

http://www.ussrphoto.com/resize/resize_image.aspx?ImgWd=800&IptFl=/UserContent/2242016_4.jpg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2242016_4.jpg

Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20160423005859

Thank you very much Alexey,

FED made some ugly cases at that time.
Very sad that the vulcanite got painted.
I can't read the address, but it seems to be the new location.

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20160423034435


Thanks a lot, Alexey!
A beautiful 1f, probably one of the first. I wonder if the official numbers don't begin with 210000, even if we find some 1f between 201800 and 210000, perhaps to fool the Plan!

This one has that ultra rare vulcanite. Some of the others have a Red Flag's one, with stretched stripes... My s/n 210921 is already completely regular.

Could somebody translate the location of the factory, so that we can make comparisons with the pre war ones?

Thanks again. Amitiés. Jacques.

Reply author: Vlad

Replied on: 20160423102254

Alexey, very interesting example, thanks for posting! Jacques, the address on this passport on the bottom now is simply - City of Kharkov, FED, Marketing Department.

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20160426073812


Thanks, Vlad. So, we don't know more about that question of location.
The passport of this very camera is coherent with the JLP which mentions that "the first 20 new Kharkov Feds were made in june 1948".
But the series begun with the s/n 210000...

Amitiés. Jacques.

Reply author: Alfa2

Replied on: 20160426111838


This will not solve our problem but I saw FED produced shortly after 210 000. It had vulcanite from FED NKAP. Maybe it will be possible to find it and place a photo here.

Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20160428050400

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Lenny</i>
<br />
So Fed produced Fed-Zorkis with 1/1000 speed together with KMZ in Krasnogorsk
and at the same time produced Fed-1f with 1/500 speed in Kharkov.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Often it is said, that Fed had trouble after the war to set up production again. It is said, because of this trouble Fed had a joint venture with KMZ to produce Fed-KMZ and Fed-Zorki.

Of course, everything from the former Fed factory was lost for Fed, it might have been in the hands of KMZ at that time. But Fed was able to set up production again in June 1948, at the same time when Fed-Zorkis were produced in Krasnogorsk. The passport of Fed-Zorki #00697 is known, dated 11/X/1948. It seems Krasnogorsk production wasn't much ahead, Kharkov was able to produce hundrets of Fed-1 in 1948 too.

If I compare my early Fed-1f from 1949 with my Zorki-1a also from 1949, the Fed looks superior in quality. It seems to me, Fed was AHEAD, while KMZ assembled prewar parts and started to set up own production.

Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20160501115121

We know about passport #129314 dated 31/V/1940 and passport #136157 dated 20/VIII/1940. 6843 cameras were produced, 595 cameras per week. That seems not much. Did the factory have 2 weeks summer holidays in 1940?
Then we know passport #145179 dated 22/X/1940. 9022 cameras till #136157, 1002 cameras per week. That seems much.
Then we know passport #168018 dated 18/VI/1941, just 4 days before the war started. 22839 cameras till #145179, 670 cameras per week.
Then we know passport #180024 dated 31/VII/1941. 12006 cameras till #168018, 1968 cameras per week. That's much too much. Can't be true if we assume the passport dates are right.
Then from #180024 till the last in the wiki #183892 it's 774 cameras per week till the factory evacuation started on 05/IX/1941. That seems possible again. But still, something must be wrong here.

Reply author: Vlad

Replied on: 20160502215133

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by RCCCUK</i>
<br />I thought you might be interested in this photograph from the book, 'On the Wings of History - 75 Years of the FED Factory 1927-2002'.

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1782013_fed photo.jpg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1782013_fed photo.jpg
I believe that the caption reads, ' Assembling the first postwar FED cameras. Berdsk, February 1946'.

David.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">


Hi David, do you by any chance have this book and is it possible to see the cover? Thanks!

Reply author: RCCCUK

Replied on: 20160503033002

Hi Vlad,
Yes, I have the book.

http://www.ussrphoto.com/resize/resize_image.aspx?ImgWd=800&IptFl=/UserContent/352016_FED Book 1.jpg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/352016_FED Book 1.jpg
Dust Cover.

http://www.ussrphoto.com/resize/resize_image.aspx?ImgWd=800&IptFl=/UserContent/352016_FED Book 2.jpg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/352016_FED Book 2.jpg
Front Cover.

http://www.ussrphoto.com/resize/resize_image.aspx?ImgWd=800&IptFl=/UserContent/352016_FED Book 3.jpg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/352016_FED Book 3.jpg
Publishing Details.


David.

Reply author: Alfa2

Replied on: 20160503042656


Wow, is the book scanned and somewhere available ?

Reply author: Vlad

Replied on: 20160503072508

Thank you so much, David!

Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20160503072659

Which number had the FED plant before the war in Kharkov? Was it plant #296?

Thanks

Reply author: levonsa

Replied on: 20160503113006

http://www.ussrphoto.com/resize/resize_image.aspx?ImgWd=800&IptFl=/UserContent/352016_IMG_0002.jpg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/352016_IMG_0002.jpg

Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20160503120059

Thanks Alexey,

so I guess when Fed was Kommuna under the NKVD it was plant #296.
Did the number change when they came under the NKAP in Febuary 1941?
Did they keep the plant number in Berdsk?
Did they have the same number when they relocated to Kharkov again in 1946?
What are the plants #297 and #393 ?

I just want to comletely understand what Zoom wrote in this thread. Zoom mentioned plant numbers with important decisions.

Thanks

Reply author: Vlad

Replied on: 20160503145951

Huh? Yoshkar-Ola? I thought it was Berdsk??? Alexey??

Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20160503235917

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Lenny</i>
<br />
Then we know passport #180024 dated 31/VII/1941. 12006 cameras till #168018, 1968 cameras per week. That's much too much. Can't be true if we assume the passport dates are right.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This is not a problem at all, because there is another passport #164716 dated 18/III/1941. Then the production was 793 cameras per week from March 18th till July 31st, 1941. That seems possible and it also match with the highest serial in the wiki #183892, which would be 774 cameras per week till the evacuation started. Seems to me #183892 was still produced in Kharkov.

Then there was no camera produktion during the war. The first Fed made in Berdsk was produced in January 1946. End of 1942 all equipment and staff was transfered to Krasnogorsk and likely all left over parts of Fed-1e. Not possible to assemble Fed-1e from parts in Berdsk, they had nothing, they started from scratch. And as we know Fed-Zorkis were made from left over parts, likely unengraved top plates too and if there were already some engraved Fed-1e top plates, those likely would have been re-engraved as Fed-Zorki.

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20160504113209

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Vlad</i>
<br />Huh? Yoshkar-Ola? I thought it was Berdsk??? Alexey??
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Astonishing!
Vlad, please, could it be possible to have a traslation of this line "19"?
I see that KMZ is quoted, with the year 1943.

Thanks. Jacques.

Reply author: Vlad

Replied on: 20160504114144

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jacques M.</i>
Vlad, please, could it be possible to have a traslation of this line "19"?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Jacques, it says:
Factory and from where relocated: Ukraine, FED Labor Commune (City of Kharkov)
Factory Number (?): 3 (NKVD), 296 (NKAP)
Place of relocation: City of Yoshkar-Ola (huh?)
Final destination after de-evacuation: Partial re-evacuation to Krasnogorsk, KMZ 1943
Destination Factory Number: 393

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20160504132358


Thanks, Vlad.
That could be a piece of the general puzzle, which leads from Kharkov to Kharkov, with a partial re evacuation to KMZ (in 1943?).
But what about this "Yoshkar-Ola"? Why is Berdsk missing? And Kiev too (for the Fed-Arsenal)?

Anyway, it seems that the story is really entangled. And as we don't have the status of Alexey's document, it's difficult to know what it means exactly...

Alexey, if you could tell us more...[:)]

Amitiés. Jacques.

Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20160504144727

Of course Arsenal and Berdsk and there might be others. A factory needed to be evacuated and not only one factory. Space was needed to store all that equipment. Lines 16, 17 and 18 on Alexey's list are black.

Important is only what happened after the war since there was no camera production during the war. Interesting is that they built NEW cameras in Kharkov, while in Krasnogorsk left over parts were RECYCLED, makes me love my early Fed-1f even more, and Zorkis have a touch of garbage, at least the early ones.

Reply author: levonsa

Replied on: 20160505072937

Hello!
Jacques, you'll be pleasantly surprised, but FED-KMZ, FED-Zorki and FED-Arsenal have common roots of the FED NKAP! So from Berdsk details we go to different plants! Even parts for TSVVS from Germany came to the factory, which had not produced photographic equipment.
I do not know why the author pointed out the evacuation of the city of Yoshkar-Ola. In the book, 50 and 75 years of plant FED indicated Berdsk.

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20160505075026


Ha ha! Thanks, Alexey![:D]
So, there would be a "main" line between Kharkov and Berdsk.
And from Berdsk, some "secondary" lines towards KMZ (production of Fed-KMZ and Fed-Zorki) and Arsenal-Kiev (trial of production of Fed-Arsenal).

And the Fed-NKAP were produced in Berdsk.

Can you confirm all that? But which book do you speak of?

Thanks! Jacques.

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20160505081447

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Lenny</i>
<br />

Important is only what happened after the war since there was no camera production during the war.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It's a supposition, a guessing, or whatever else. But we have no proof: we don't have any documents to attest that.
Even if I have the same opinion: my previous posts show that. But it's only an opinion. And some cameras could perfectly have been mounted with spare parts made previously.

So, I regret the recent (and important) modifications of the wiki, which turn opinions into facts. It's for me only a question of rule: I don't discuss on what was written.

Jacques.

Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20160505090832

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by levonsa</i>
<br />
I do not know why the author pointed out the evacuation to the city of Yoshkar-Ola. In the book, 50 and 75 years of plant FED indicated Berdsk.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks to Zoom and I found this:
http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/misc/gko-docs.html#n374
Order #374 from August 2nd, 1941. Building a new plant #297 in Yoschkar-Ola Mari ASSR now called Mari Machine Works.

Where to put all the equipment. They built a new plant.

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20160505114601

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Lenny</i>

Thanks to Zoom and I found this:
http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/misc/gko-docs.html#n374
Order #374 from August 2nd, 1941. Building a new plant #297 in Yoschkar-Ola Mari ASSR now called Mari Machine Works.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Bravo! [:D]

Jacques.

Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20160505120918

In the wiki of Fed-1e was stated that according to Princelle the evacuation started on September 5th, 1941.
But there's order #681. The evacuation was ordered on September 16th.

http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/misc/gko-docs.html#n681

11 more days to produce the last Fed-1e. Now they needed only to produce 586 cameras per week if #183892 is the last Fed-1e. That's pretty doable and gives time for even a #185xxx.

Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20160505121436

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Alfa2</i>
<br />
This will not solve our problem but I saw FED produced shortly after 210 000. It had vulcanite from FED NKAP. Maybe it will be possible to find it and place a photo here.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Alfa, why do you want a photo, vulcanite housings can easily be changed.
There is #210235 with stretched stripes vulcanite as Jacques would call it
and also #200347 with snowflake vulcanite as Alexey would call it.

Reply author: Vlad

Replied on: 20160505122230

Alexey, Lenny, I'm still hung up on the Yoshkar-Ola.. Berdsk is 2500km east of that city! I guess it's possible that FED with its equipment didn't fit entirely into Yoshkar-Ola plant and was moved further and camera/optical division ended up in Berdsk.. strange..

Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20160505125217

Jacques, I think what I changed and added in the wiki still leaves room for phantasies if someone want to have some. But I think we should not hide the facts and the facts are massive. I think I didn't put my opinion into the wiki, but facts. Also corrected some mistakes and everything started with the database which was a mess before. But everybody is free and should add other facts to the wiki, it's important, that's also why we have this interesting thread.
- I calculated how many cameras could have been produced till evacuation, a #185000 would be possible.
- Besides that we know passports and I was same skeptical that most passports came from DVD. But they look original to me, and they match the timeline. #180024 is not a passport, at least not what I saw, but even without it calculations would come to the same results.
- There is this photo from Berdsk stating they produced the FIRST Fed in January/Febuary 1946.
- Before, as Zoom told us, they were not allowed to produce cameras, order #2445. The photo mentioning the FIRST Fed makes sense.
- The FED equipment, engineers and technicians were transferred to KMZ and KOMZ in late 1942, order #2445.
- I have my own late Fed-1e now, I'm sure it's an original one, it looks so good, works so well, I doubt they could have made it in Berdsk from scratch.
- I left the passage in the wiki that even Fed-1d with serials up to #176000 could be made in Berdsk. This possibility is really funny now. With the information we have now this passage would have never been posted in the wiki.
Facts which all make sense together.

Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20160505135605

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Niko80</i>
<br />
Also I'd like to point out that I am now the owner of the FED"e" #180024 with the corresponding documents. If there is any information I can provide just let me know.

Regards,
Christian
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hi Christian,
the documents I saw are not a dated passport. What I saw was a small paper dated 31/July/1941, maybe a documentation that the camera was complete and checked. Are there other dated documents?
Thanks

Reply author: levonsa

Replied on: 20160505144450

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Lenny</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Alfa2</i>
<br />
This will not solve our problem but I saw FED produced shortly after 210 000. It had vulcanite from FED NKAP. Maybe it will be possible to find it and place a photo here.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Alfa, why do you want a photo, vulcanite housings can easily be changed.
There is #210235 with stretched stripes vulcanite as Jacques would call it
and also #200347 with snowflake vulcanite as Alexey would call it.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Lenny! Camera &#1060;&#1069;&#1044; &#8470;210340 have classical vulcanite.

Reply author: Alfa2

Replied on: 20160505152250

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Lenny</i>

Alfa, why do you want a photo, vulcanite housings can easily be changed.
There is #210235 with stretched stripes vulcanite as Jacques would call it
and also #200347 with snowflake vulcanite as Alexey would call it.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Sorry, I have written this not exactely clear. I meant I should find my camera and place a photo here. But problem for me is to find the camera because I don't know where I have it. I haven't seen the FED for many years. [:)]


Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20160505162124

Lenny,

I don't say you are wrong. I just say you are too in a hurry.
Of course,you do what you want with the wiki. As anybody who is able to add something. Or to change something if he is not OK with what you wrote. As for me, I will never "correct" what is written by somebody else, without discussion, and it's for me a question of principle. And of credibility too. Note that I'm not the author of the Fed 1e page...

The wiki is a space of certitude, and the threads a space of discussion. So, now, about what is written.

-No calculation will tell us exactly what happened. We just can be sure that the material for some 10000 1e were made at Kharkov before september 1941. We cannot be sure where the cameras were mounted. All or partly in Kharkov? That's the point.
-I don't understand your skepticism about the Fed S 180024. It's one of the rare original documents, and you doubt of it.
-The photo was taken at Berdsk's. Right. But we don't know in which conditions. Nor what the different persons do exactly. They look much more engineers presenting cameras. Publicity or else? And which camera?
-Zoom is OK, of course. Nevertheless, I point that he changed his mind lately. Before, it was impossible, for him, to accept that KMZ had received any parts from Fed.
-I'm happy to know that the Fed equipment was, at least partially, tranferred to KMZ: it is what I guessed. But is it now a fact or always an affirmation?

I'm happy for you that you have your own original 1e. I think too that's important to have cameras in the hands to write about them. As for me, I think (guess!) that:
-The parts for 1e-s were totally made before the september 1941 at Kharkov.
-They were mounted totally or partially in Kharkov,
-Some Feds could have been mounted at Berdsk, during the war, for local or other reasons,
-KMZ and Arsenal received Fed parts to mount their own Fed-KMZ and Fed-Arsenal. But what? And through which ways?
-Red Flags were made in 1946 at Berdsk's.

A bit worried by this discussion. I will let you with your "facts" and the wiki. But I always keep some reasonable doubts. One of them being: why were these cameras called "Berdsk" if none of them were made at Berdsk? And why were the NKVD 1d (between 173600/176000) called "return from Berdsk"? Only imagination or fantasy?


Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20160505174603

Jacques,
I think it was time to update something. There will never be the final version and we can change everything at any time. If anybody finds a mistake in the wiki it should be corrected directly. It's impossible to know who wrote what in the wiki, at least for me.

What is the highest serial number for a 1e in your database? If there were so many top plates made unassembled we should have found them already. As I said before, left over parts were transferred to KMZ and they recycled everything.

I ask about the passport of #180024 because someone mentioned it in the wiki. If there is no passport I would like to correct the mistake. I think too that the papers I saw about #180024 look original, I don't doubt them, I used them for my calculation. I only would like to be correct in the wiki.

Jacques, you often talk about the shutter crates, that some are made of brass and some of alloy. Which parts do you check, only the base plate of the shutter crate? You said #115000 till #184000 are made of alloy, #200000 till #223000 are made of brass. So brass crates should be postwar, right. I just checked some of my Feds and think there might be something interesting to talk about. Seems my #182393 is brass and should be postwar then. My #221333 is alloy, my #242xxx is brass. I need to check some others. Maybe Fed used both types at the same time.

Reply author: levonsa

Replied on: 20160505174738

Jacques, do not worry! I'll try to answer your questions on my website. The article will be in Russian, but I think if Vlad and our other guys will help all to translate it into English.

Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20160505180750

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Alfa2</i>
<br />
Sorry, I have written this not exactely clear. I meant I should find my camera and place a photo here. But problem for me is to find the camera because I don't know where I have it. I haven't seen the FED for many years. [:)]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Don't say sorry Alfa, search for it tomorrow and everything is fine. I want to see it [:)]

Reply author: Alfa2

Replied on: 20160506035315


I will try to search for it on the coming weekend.
Regarding vulcanite there are some rules but there are exceptions too. I saw original vulcanite of FED NKVD but not black, the colour was like coffe with milk. We had discussion about it with my colleague - art historian who is really interesred in old FEDs.

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20160506071643

Lenny,

OK,OK.
For me, what is written is conclusive. I am of the generation of paper which could not change their reference books several times a year...

That said, I agree with you at, let us say 90% with what you wrote. Especially about Berdsks which were not made at Berdsk and KMZ which used Fed parts. I had said all that (I was not alone!) in 2013 and earlier. I just wonder what happened so that these ideas have something of official now? Zoom's article? With all the respect due to him, it's not enough. Proofs need documents, and I don't see any. Perhaps I missed something?

Now, my doubts. I had made the same calculation as you and my personal conclusions were just at the opposite. With the declaration of war and the run of the German Army towards the east, it seemed difficult to prepare the evacuation in emergency, while making around 4000 cameras, all that in two months or so. It's why I think Fed could have achieved quickly all the parts for the entire Fed e series, without mounting all of them. The final mounting job for the remaining batch of cameras could have been made at Berdsk's or elsewhere: not difficult when all the needed parts are available.

That said, you may be right too.

In fact, I globally think that we miss original documents to be as affirmative as you are. Paradoxally, the best documented camera in this period is the Fed-Arsenal! For the moment, and as far as I know...

I check my cameras about your brass/alloy question.

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20160506073453

After a quick glance, I confirm what I have already written:
- brass shutter crates up to s/n c. 115000,
- alloy up to the end of 1e series,
- brass for my personal NKAP Red Flag,
- brass for the 1f series, up to 250000,
- alloy after.

Note that the limits are those I observe on my personal cameras. And certainly, there could be mixed parts, specially after WW2.

Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20160506080934

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jacques M.</i>
<br />After a quick glance, I confirm what I have already written:
- brass shutter crates up to s/n c. 115000,
- alloy up to the end of 1e series,
- brass for my personal NKAP Red Flag,
- brass for the 1f series, up to 250000,
- alloy after.

Note that the limits are those I observe on my personal cameras. And certainly, there could be mixed parts, specially after WW2.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks Jacques,

so you check only the bottom plate of the shutter crate, right.
Strange, so my #182393 could be a fake which I doubt, could be postwar which I doubt too, and my #221333 is also a mystery. Both I got very cheap [:)]

We need more samples for brass and alloy crates in the serial range #170.000 till #250.000 please.

Reply author: Zoom

Replied on: 20160507185904

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Lenny</i>
Thanks to Zoom and I found this:
http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/misc/gko-docs.html#n374
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
You're welcome. But I don't understand why the plant No.297 NKV in Yoshkar-Ola emerged in the discussion...
The plant No.296 NKAP was sent to Berdsk by the GKO Order No.681.
Btw., the text of the GKO Order No.2445 can be found here: http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/misc/gko-2445.html

Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20160508064846

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Zoom</i>
<br />But I don't understand why the plant No.297 NKV in Yoshkar-Ola emerged in the discussion...
The plant No.296 NKAP was sent to Berdsk by the GKO Order No.681.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hello Zoom,

02.08.1941 they started building plant #297 Yoschkar-Ola (order #374).
16.09.1941 they ordered the evacuation to Berdsk (order #681) when building the new Yoschkar-Ola plant wasn't finished yet.

Yoschkar-Ola might be on the way to Berdsk and at some point in time the new plant was built. If there is a new plant available it saves much time to store the Fed equipment there.

Then there is the paper Alexey posted. Maybe there are some orders we don't know about yet.

Reply author: Zoom

Replied on: 20160508093449

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Lenny</i>
<br />Yoschkar-Ola might be on the way to Berdsk...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I do not know how to comment on it...
Nope.

P. S. It is impossible to consider this delirium:
http://ussrphoto.com/UserContent/352016_IMG_0002.jpg
as a reliable source!

Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20160508105147

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Zoom</i>
<br />It is impossible to consider this delirium:
http://ussrphoto.com/UserContent/352016_IMG_0002.jpg
as a reliable source!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Now I see, it's page 88 from a book.
Which book is it?
The 1200 camera book?

Reply author: Alfa2

Replied on: 20160508132837

I promised to place photo of my FED. It's number is 210 193. Hmmm, strange camera.

Here they are.

http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff500/Planistigmat/fed21.jpg



http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff500/Planistigmat/fed22.jpg



http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff500/Planistigmat/fed23.jpg



http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff500/Planistigmat/fed24.jpg



http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff500/Planistigmat/fed25.jpg



http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff500/Planistigmat/fed26.jpg



http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff500/Planistigmat/fed27.jpg



http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff500/Planistigmat/fed28.jpg



http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff500/Planistigmat/fed29.jpg



http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff500/Planistigmat/fed30.jpg

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20160508143639


Exceptional!
The NKAP vulcanite, and the prewar release button!
One of the very first 1f...

Congrats, Alfa! Jacques.

Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20160508161529

Thank you so much Alfa,

what a beauty. How many years do you have it?

Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20160508162049

Sad, it's not working, right?

Reply author: Alfa2

Replied on: 20160509014656


Thank you Jacques, thank you Lenny.

I have the FED about 15 years. Unfortunately it is not working now but it was working when I bought it. I think this is only problem with glue which is used for a shutter ribbon to glue it to a roller. Good that the FED is complete and I will fix it during winter when my repairman has less orders than during summer.

Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20160509024628

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Alfa2</i>
<br />
Thank you Jacques, thank you Lenny.

I have the FED about 15 years. Unfortunately it is not working now but it was working when I bought it. I think this is only problem with glue which is used for a shutter ribbon to glue it to a roller. Good that the FED is complete and I will fix it during winter when my repairman has less orders than during summer.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I had that problem too on a Zorki-C, the glue wasn't strong enough on the drum. But good you have someone to fix it.

Great you have it for so many years, it's kind of a reference to be original. And #210235 has this stretched stripes vulcanite too, so it match with it.

Reply author: Alfa2

Replied on: 20160509040521

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Lenny</i>
And #210235 has this stretched stripes vulcanite too, so it match with it.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> That's great. I had the same doubts.
What about the lens S/N ? It seems to be OK, FED 210 <b>193</b> and the lens number <b>217</b> - little bit greater.
Seems they started lenses numbering from the beginning with FED 210 000.
What do you think ?

Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20160509045125

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Alfa2</i>
<br />
What about the lens S/N ? It seems to be OK, FED 210 <b>193</b> and the lens number <b>217</b> - little bit greater.
Seems they started lenses numbering from the beginning with FED 210 000.
What do you think ?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I don't know what Fed did with the lens serial numbers, especially when they are not stamped at the lock. I guess 217 is a kind of batch number only and it didn't get a real serial number. But since they just started with #210000 you could be right. Maybe we will know more about lens serials one day.

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20160509050234


I think too it's a batch number (or a control number) rather a real serial number, by the s/n of lenses I know on other Fed 1f.

Jacques.

Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20160509074155

There is also a lens number on the lever but the lens needs to be screwd out off the helicoid to see this number.

It would be really interesting to resolve the secret of Fed lens numbers, but thousands of numbers would be needed.
This could be a challenge for ussrphoto.com with its thousand members.

Reply author: Alfa2

Replied on: 20160509104623

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Lenny</i>
<br />There is also a lens number on the lever but the lens needs to be screwd out off the helicoid to see this number. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I have checked the number. It is also 217. This confirms somehow it is not serial as you wrote it isn't. So this is lens without S/N.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Lenny</i>
This could be a challenge for ussrphoto.com with its thousand members. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Great, we will have subject to talk about for next 10 years. [:)]

Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20160509155614

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Alfa2</i>
<br />Great, we will have subject to talk about for next 10 years. [:)]

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That's for sure ... if you search every weekend in your boxes for some forgotten gems. I wonder about the other cameras you have. Poland is still a good place to get some great cameras.

Reply author: levonsa

Replied on: 20160509164823

FED #210033 ____ leans #209
FED #210073 ____ leans #3
FED #210193 ____ leans #211
FED #210266 ____ leans #6
FED #210437 ____ leans #26A

Reply author: Alfa2

Replied on: 20160510030907

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Lenny</i>
That's for sure ... if you search every weekend in your boxes for some forgotten gems. I wonder about the other cameras you have. Poland is still a good place to get some great cameras.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Polish market was good place to get some great cameras 15 years ago and earlier. Now you can buy here boring things like AF digital equipment or manual not branded (i mean branded by Makinon or Albinar) staff.

And I'd like to have such boxes with many forgotten gems but unfortunalely I don't have them. [:(]

By this what levonsa has written the lens number defintely has nothing to do with camera S/N.

Reply author: levonsa

Replied on: 20160510035319

I thought you only bikers in Poland are not allowed. There is no place for politics, there are the facts! FED #210033 + lens &#8470;209 - it's attestat! Or a certificate of your too, is of no importance?

Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20160510042725

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by levonsa</i>
<br />FED #210033 + lens &#8470;209 - it's attestat! Or a certificate of your too, is of no importance?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Alexey, where is #209 stamped? At the lock or away from the lock?
I think if you have to write a passport, you take the number which you can see. But there might be hundred lenses with #209. Can't be a real serial number.

Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20160510044623

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Alfa2</i>
<br />Polish market was good place to get some great cameras 15 years ago and earlier.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

There is this Polish guy in Scottland, 'vintagefotos' on ebay, and he has many other ebay accounts. He often buys in Poland and then sells it for much more in UK. Poland is definitely a place where many Zorkis were sold in the 1950s.

Reply author: Alfa2

Replied on: 20160510094106

Yes Lenny, but Zorkis which were sold in Poland in 50's are absolutely regular ones and there are not so many of them. Big amount of really interesting cameras was imported to Poland in 90's. On our market there is a lot of e.g. Zorki 4 which were officially imported.

I think I know the guy but I have to ask him about his nick on ebay.


Reply author: levonsa

Replied on: 20160510132331

Strange, but I have always believed that if the passport number of the lens is written such that it lenses all the same room! And not fiction forum participants!
Lenny, you are doing a lot for the order on the site. It's great! But I also like the position of the wise Jacques! You should never jump to conclusions faster, especially when it comes to the Soviet production. We must weigh everything, consult with all together and make a decision!

http://www.ussrphoto.com/resize/resize_image.aspx?ImgWd=800&IptFl=/UserContent/1052016_2.jpg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1052016_2.jpg

Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20160510144613

Alexey, thanks for the close up photo of the passport.
But you must admit that the first Industar-10 #209 made from Fed should be from the year 1934, a 1-turn lens. Then at some point in time, when Fed changed the serial system, there should be many other Industar-10 also with #209. Helpful would be a close up photo from the back of the lens with the whole M39 ring shown, and maybe even the number on the lever, but the lens needs to be screwed out off the helicoid. I hope we will know more about this I-10 serial system one day.
Thanks

Reply author: geoffox23

Replied on: 20160510145441

Lenny
You are comparing prewar with postwar numbering.
Postwar, lens numbering restarted and seems to have no logical system to tie to bodies.
Cheers

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20160510145837

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by geoffox23</i>
<br />Lenny
You are comparing prewar with postwar numbering.
Postwar, lens numbering restarted and seems to have no logical system to tie to bodies.
Cheers
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes! Thanks. Jacques.

Reply author: levonsa

Replied on: 20160510150250

geoffox23 thanks for the help! I'm a little tired to explain to the children about the new post-war numbering lenses. By the way the camera itself will start with the new numbering 210,000.

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20160510150503

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by levonsa</i>
<br />geoffox23 thanks for the help! I'm a little tired to explain to the children about the new post-war numbering lenses. By the way the camera itself will start with the new numbering 210,000.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

[:D][:D]

Jacques.

Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20160510152941

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by geoffox23</i>
<br />Lenny
You are comparing prewar with postwar numbering.
Postwar, lens numbering restarted and seems to have no logical system to tie to bodies.
Cheers
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

No, I'm not comparing them, but there should be only ONE serial for each lens and not hundrets. To me, this is a kind of batch number, especially when it's not stamped at the lock.

For example, how did KMZ arrange the serial numbers. There could be TWO I-22 with the same serial #5211929, but one is with 'mm' from 1952 and the other is with 'cm' from 1955. It's still possible to separate them. There is only ONE serial for each I-22.
These I-22 are postwar too and are interchangeable on all Zorkis and each has it's own serial and isn't tied to any body.

Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20160510153602

Maybe a lens serial number wasn't important for Fed at some point. There are even 50/2 lenses without serial number before the war. It seems Fed didn't need the serials and the numbers stamped have a special meaning, for example to help regulation.

Then there is the girl who has to package the cameras and to write the passport and she writes what is given. But it's not a serial number!!!

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20160510162756

Of course the serial numbers had a great importance for Fed! Like of any FSU production! If some (rare) lenses don't have numbers, we don't know why.

At this point, I don't understand really what we say, but perhaps it's not important [:)]
I just point that the first Fed lenses were 1 turn ones. They were numbered in very tiny ciphers too, which cannot be confused with postwar ones.

That said, by the passport showed by Alexey, the "209" seems a serial number, or I don't understand what is written before. It's "objective = lens", no? Or can it really be "batch of objectives?" Or anything else? We have to take that in consideration and think of what it will lead to. For me, at least, rather than thinking of who had written that...

Jacques.

Reply author: Zoom

Replied on: 20160512073605

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jacques M.</i>
<br />That said, I agree with you at, let us say 90% with what you wrote. Especially about Berdsks which were not made at Berdsk and KMZ which used Fed parts. I had said all that (I was not alone!) in 2013 and earlier. I just wonder what happened so that these ideas have something of official now? Zoom's article? With all the respect due to him, it's not enough. Proofs need documents, and I don't see any. Perhaps I missed something?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I did not notice right away ... If we are talking about the article "ZENIT: prehistory", then there is all based on the documents.

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20160512093154

Zoom,

Happy to know that there are documents which prove that there were no Fed made at Berdsk during the war. My question was in fact more extensive: can we affirm that there were no Fed <b><u>mounted</u></b> during the war, at Berdsk or elsewhere? Are there documents too to prove that?

Thanks. Jacques.

Reply author: Zoom

Replied on: 20160512165941

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jacques M.</i>
<br />Happy to know that there are documents which prove that there were no Fed made at Berdsk during the war.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
This article is not about the production of cameras in Berdsk. But, indeed, the FED production on the plant No.296 NKAP has been discontinued. The plant is fully switched to military production.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jacques M.</i>
<br />My question was in fact more extensive: can we affirm that there were no Fed <b><u>mounted</u></b> during the war, at Berdsk or elsewhere? Are there documents too to prove that?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The FED factory (No.296 NKAP) gave all its optical part according the GKO order No.2445 (23 October 1942).
http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/misc/gko-2445.html
All optical equipment, materials and so on were taken away. Nevertheless, a certain number of cameras left. According to the factory's history book, the plant began to assemble cameras in 1946, as I remember. But there is no documentary evidence to the cameras assembly before February 1946...

Reply author: Luiz Paracampo

Replied on: 20160512223311

Link does not work

http://www.ussrphoto.com/resize/resize_image.aspx?ImgWd=800&IptFl=/UserContent/1252016_error.png


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1252016_error.png

Reply author: Luiz Paracampo

Replied on: 20160512224018

reimaging



http://www.ussrphoto.com/resize/resize_image.aspx?ImgWd=800&IptFl=/UserContent/1252016_error1.png


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1252016_error1.png

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20160513002519

Thanks Zoom.
So, we are always at the same point, more or less. If I try to summarize:

All the Fed 1e could have been completely produced at Kharkov before evacuation. That said, the timing seems unrealistic by the passports we have (I have added dates and numbers found on Alexey's site):
- s/n 164716 : 18/3/41,
- s/n 168018 : 18/6/41,
- s/n 175118 : 21/6/41,
- s/n 175524 : 21/6/41,
- s/n 181100 : 30/7/41,
- s/n 180024 (S):31/7/41.
To produce 12000 cameras in 45 days is impossible. Were some cameras mounted elsewhere? Or are there "big" holes in the numbering, as the JLP suggests?

It is unlikely that cameras were produced at Berdsk's plant during the war. On the other hand, it's not completely impossible that some were only mounted from parts coming from Kharkov, after the evacuation.

All the remaining materials were transferred to Krasnogorsk in 1942. So, KMZ too could have played his part concerning the mounting of Fed 1e after the war. After all, there is no real difference in quality between Fed-Zorkis and Fed 1e.

Berdsk produced the NKAP "Red Flag", probably from already existing spare parts, in 1946.

Arsenal produced the Fed-Arsenal in 1946-47, in very small numbers, from existing and "home" made parts.

Fed-Kharkov resumed the production in june 1948 (the first Fed 1f).

What an entangled story... The main question remains of course the place of production/mounting for the 1e. We only have hypothesis, absolutely no certitude... Certainly, we miss a major fact?

Amitiés. Jacques.

Reply author: Zoom

Replied on: 20160513004738

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Luiz Paracampo</i>
<br />Link does not work
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Corrected, sorry.

Reply author: Zoom

Replied on: 20160513005804

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jacques M.</i>
<br />
All the remaining materials were transferred to Krasnogorsk in 1942.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
No. A personnel only. Their number is not known (a list of the names is incomplete). A few dozen people (maximum)...

Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20160513054324

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jacques M.</i>
<br />the timing seems unrealistic by the passports we have (I have added dates and numbers found on Alexey's site):
- s/n 175118 : 21/6/41,
- s/n 181100 : 30/7/41,
To produce 12000 cameras in 45 days is impossible.

All the remaining materials were transferred to Krasnogorsk in 1942.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Jacques, as I understood it the Fed equipment was transferred to KOMZ in November 1942 and was stored there till it was transferred to Arsenal in Febuary 1945. KMZ might have gotten everything after Arsenal stopped producing as Altix assumed.

Why do you think of 12000 cameras?

Where did you find those 2 passports?

Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20160513055654

Jacques, now I understand why 12000. Forget about this passport #168018, it is out off the line of other passports.

It could simply be that they wrote 18 VI 1941 instead of 18 IV 1941 for #168018.

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20160513064227

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Why do you think of 12000 cameras?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

181100 - 168018 # 13000 cameras in 42 days. Of course impossible.
And 7000 cameras in 3 days it's impossible too!
The passport of the S s/n 180024 was established on a Kharkov paper. We don't know for the others.

Of course, the passports can have been filled in a hurry after the parts were made for the corresponding cameras. But it doesn't enlighten the whole question.

We have a real problem of comprehension between number of cameras/passports/location of production concerning these Fed 1e.


Jacques.

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20160513065335

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Lenny</i>
<br />Jacques, now I understand why 12000. Forget about this passport #168018, it is out off the line of other passports.

It could simply be that they wrote 18 VI 1941 instead of 18 IV 1941 for #168018.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

There, I cannot follow you. I postule that the only way to understand the situation is to follow the documents we have, not to criticize them. Even if they don't make us pleasure!

BTW, I have found, always on Alexey's site, the s/n 175524, with the same date of 21/6/41... It goes towards the same way. I add it in my precedent listing.

Jacques.

Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20160513072134

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jacques M.</i>
<br />I postule that the only way to understand the situation is to follow the documents we have, not to criticize them.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Of course, but we have to check if the numbers are possible.
From #164716 till #168018 they produced 252 cameras per week according to the passports, very less.
From #168018 till #175118 they produced 17750 per week. Easy to recognize a mistake here.
But from #164716 till #175118 they produced 765 cameras per week. This is possible and seems very accurate.
Just forget about passport #168018. Also forget about passport #181100. Calculate from #180024 till the last in the wiki #183892 and it's 586 cameras per week till evacuation.
Now if we calculate with 765 per week from #180024 till evacuation a camera #185073 could be possible. So we are pretty much on the safe side that all were produced in Kharkov before evacuation.

Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20160513073846

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Lenny</i>
<br />From #164716 till #168018 they produced 252 cameras per week according to the passports, very less.
From #168018 till #175118 they produced 17750 per week. Easy to recognize a mistake here.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If we calculate with month IV (April) instead of VI (June) we will get an amazing result. What I quoted above will change to THIS.

From #164716 till #168018 they produced 750 cameras per week.
From #168018 till #175118 they produced 780 per week.
Amazing right [:D]

It's just a human mistake, who is used to write with roman figures.

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20160513075520


What can I say?
You are funny, Lenny. You chose the passports which agree you[:D]. And you ask me to forget two of them. But I cannot!

I think we have questions to put concerning the passports and their exact correlation with cameras. This period june/september 1941 was exceptional, and Fed could have used urgency procedures...

Jacques.

Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20160513080246

Jacques, there could be other possibilities.
Imagine, camera #168018 was produced and didn't pass the quality control, so it had to be repaired.
We should follow of course the passports we have, but not all. If the majority of passport match our calculation we are pretty much on the right side.

Also we have to understand how the serials were produced. For examle serial #160000 was engraved and was put in an big empty bucket. Later #160999 was engraved and was put on top of the bucket which is now full of engraved top plates. Next step in production is assembling. It starts with the top plate on top of the bucket, #160999. Much later top plate #160000 was assembled.

That's why passports #180024 and #181100 can both be true, even if passport #181100 was written the day before. But we calculate with #180024 till evacuation which is much harder than if we calculated with #181100.

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20160513081019

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> If the <u><b>majority</b></u> of passport match our calculation we are pretty much on the right side.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Just no.

Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20160513082510

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jacques M.</i>
<br />You are funny, Lenny. You chose the passports which agree you[:D]. And you ask me to forget two of them. But I cannot!

I think we have questions to put concerning the passports and their exact correlation with cameras. This period june/september 1941 was exceptional, and Fed could have used urgency procedures...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Jacques, there is no correct correlation as some might think. As we can see, #181100 was produced 1 day before #180024. But we are very correct if we say they were both made in July. #168018 is just an bad example to calculate with, but we know they were not able to produce 7100 cameras within 3 days. We know it's impossible to produce cameras consecutive to their serials. Then there is the quality control which put some cameras on hold. We are pretty much on the right side with all other passports.

Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20160513083125

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jacques M.</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> If the <u><b>majority</b></u> of passport match our calculation we are pretty much on the right side.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Just no.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Then you have to believe that they produced 7100 cameras in 3 days (#168018-#175118). And in this case you are VERY WRONG.

And you have to believe that they produced 3302 cameras in 92 days (#164716-#168018).

Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20160513084026

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jacques M.</i>
<br />The passport of the S s/n 180024 was established on a Kharkov paper. We don't know for the others.

We have a real problem of comprehension between number of cameras/passports/location of production concerning these Fed 1e.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

#164716 is Lesopark 54 too. I have a photo.

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20160513090255


We just have to try and understand. Not to correct anything.

But all that is boring. Once more time, that turns into a personal quarrel. I am not interested.

Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20160513092253

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jacques M.</i>
<br />
We just have to try and understand. Not to correct anything.

But all that is boring. Once more time, that turns into a personal quarrel. I am not interested.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes, we have to understand that lower serial numbers are also at the bottom of the bucket during production and will be assembled later. We have to understand that quality control can put cameras on hold. We have to understand that there are not only engraving errors with digits missing or digits added, there can also be errors when writting VI instead of IV on a passport. But all information together shows a very accurate picture which is enough to know what kind of production was possible at that time.

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20160513114829


Bravo for this personal interpretation with buckets, quality control and errors of writing! It's a long time since I have been keen on Feds, and I never saw so clearly how they worked inside the factory. Thanks![:D]

That said, once more, it is always not completely impossible that Fed 1e were entirely made in Kharkov. But, even if there can be a mistake (!), I go on doubting, specially for the last 2-3000 last ones for which we don't have passport. We can suppose that the emergency was rather on the evacuation. But I repeat myself and now this discussion is finished for me, unless there is a new fact, of course!

Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20160513122330

Jacques, I forgot where I saw it, but I saw a photo of Zorki production when they molded the top plates I think, and there was a bucket so big that a person could hide in it [:D] Sure Zorki was real mass production.

Jacques, it seems you never saw passport #168018. I can tell you, I never saw it too. I might have gotten the information about #168018 from the wiki. As long as we don't have prove that this passport exists we should put the information on hold. Maybe someone from the BFM put that information there. Do you know the BFM, the Berdsk Fake Mafia. Then this Mafia spread the news that even Fed-1d were produced in Berdsk and they set up a table with information about Joschkar-Ola, which Zoom calls a not reliable sourse and a piece made in delirium.

But I can tell you, I saw the passport #164716.

Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20160513123941

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jacques M.</i>
<br />
Bravo for this personal interpretation with buckets
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Jacques, please check Princelle's book, page 124 [:)] ok, they don't look like buckets, more like container [:D]

Reply author: Zoom

Replied on: 20160513155408

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Lenny</i>
<br />...and they set up a table with information about Joschkar-Ola, which Zoom calls a not reliable sourse and a piece made in delirium.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The Kinap plant from Odessa was transferred to the plant No.297 NKV in Yoshkar-Ola.
Used documents:
GKO Order No.374ss -- August 2, 1941.
GKO Order No.681ss -- September 16, 1941.
Cited also: The Economic Council of the SNK USSR Order No.1880-564s -- December 6, 1940.
Source: Russian State Archive of Socio-Political History (RGASPI), fund (ôîíä): 644, inventory (îïèñü): 2, cases (äåëî): 10 (list 39, par. 16) and 18 (list 84).

Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20160513220915

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jacques M.</i>
<br />
BTW, I have found, always on Alexey's site, the s/n 175524, with the same date of 21/6/41... It goes towards the same way. I add it in my precedent listing.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

So the passports of #175118 and #175524 were written on the same day. At first sight people might think that they also wrote all other passports between those two serials on the same day. But that might not be the case. Cameras didn't finish production consecutive to their serials. They were only consecutive engraved during production.

These 2 cameras finished production 12 weeks before evacuation. A production of #183892 (last 1e in the wiki) before evacuation seems possible. They were able to produce 9000 cameras in 12 weeks.

Reply author: elnur

Replied on: 20160514151635

Good evening guys! why do you think that this is the date of manufacture? I now intended that this date of packaging. and the production of the marriage took place, in consequence of that, some parties came back to troubleshoot.

Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20160514173233

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by elnur</i>
<br />Good evening guys! why do you think that this is the date of manufacture? I now intended that this date of packaging. and the production of the marriage took place, in consequence of that, some parties came back to troubleshoot.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hello Elnur,

I don't exactly understand what you want to say,
but congratulations to your FIRST POST.

Reply author: Vlad

Replied on: 20160515003209

Welcome Elnur, it's great to have another big FED expert in our midst! What Elnur is trying to say ( I had earlier conversation with him) is that the dates on passports are not the dates of manufacture but the dates of sale. Not all of batches of these cameras would get sold at the same time. These dates on passports are filled in when the cameras are sold, sometimes they would be sold in different sequence and sometimes would sit on shelves of the store for a while so the dates are not actual manufacture dates. Also when cameras are returned to factory for repair because of defects they would get issued new dates on passports.

It's a pleasure and honor to have you here, Elnur! I hope to see more of your participation!

Vlad

Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20160515023820

Thanks Elnur.
This makes sense, that the passports were written when the cameras were packaged for sale.
It doesn't make sense that passport dates were written in advance, because once they needed to package the cameras they would need to search for the passports, when writing a passport just takes 1 minute.
Of course the cameras were not sold consecutive to their serial numbers. Cameras with higher serials could be sold earlier.

Later this might have changed little bit when they only wrote the month and year in the passports.

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20160515035442


Thanks, Vlad, and welcome to you, Elnur!

So, passports show the date of sale. That completely changes the point of view, of course! No possibility to calculate a precise production from the serial numbers, for example. And the 1e were very probably made entirely before the evacuation. No more problem, unless perhaps about the last ones. Were they sold too? When? Always before evacuation? Or reserved to the Red Army, as I had guessed somewhere, half by joke?[:)]

No doubt you will help us to put some missing pieces on this entangled puzzle, Elnur. Thanks...

Amitiés. Jacques.

Reply author: elnur

Replied on: 20160516095825

Thank You all for the warm welcome! I am very pleased )
About packing cameras. I'm certainly not a historian, and do not have enough facts to say it all. But a fresh idea will not harm us. I did not mean that the passports were written in advance. But on the contrary that there had been a batch of cameras, which later had to undergo some checking. After the devices are tested, Packed and were issued certificates. And the devices that were problematic were returned for repair. And possibly from the earlier numbers, but with the late date in the certificate. I think that's why there's the confusion.

Reply author: Vlad

Replied on: 20160516104915

Here are a few more serial #s and dates for the 1e, courtesy of Elnur:

163623 March 22 1941
164716 March 18 1941
175116 June 21 1941
177611 July 3 1941
178319 July 12 1941
180024 July 31 1941
181100 July 30 1941

Cheers,
Vlad

Reply author: elnur

Replied on: 20160516124012

and one more 177572 from 1st of July 41

http://www.ussrphoto.com/resize/resize_image.aspx?ImgWd=800&IptFl=/UserContent/1652016_pr1Pp27EESg.jpg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1652016_pr1Pp27EESg.jpg

Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20160516131035

Thanks Elnur,

on the passport I read #177512. Is the camera #177572 ?

Reply author: elnur

Replied on: 20160516134915

Oh, sorry. You r right Lenny. Made mistake.

Reply author: AlexanderK

Replied on: 20160517120813

Hello guys,
here are my Berdsk-cameras:

- 176426
- 182602

... unfortunately without any papers.

Regards, Alexander

Reply author: Aleksandrov66

Replied on: 20160518071824

Good day everyone!
Yesterday i was offered to buy (i didn't) camera n.183428.
I'd like to share a photo (s\n is already in the wiki):

http://www.ussrphoto.com/resize/resize_image.aspx?ImgWd=800&IptFl=/UserContent/1852016_untitled.jpg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1852016_untitled.jpg

Unfortunately, i got only one picture.

Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20160518074234

Thanks Aleksandrov,

it's really amazing that so many Fed-1e look so good,
as if they were never used,
as if they were not bought from someone who wants to use it,
as if they were gifts maybe for outstanding military performance.

I put it in the wiki under FED-1e too, to be complete.

Reply author: Alfa2

Replied on: 20160518074348


Why it has 1/1000 ?
Was it FED S ?


Reply author: Lenny

Replied on: 20160518075633

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Alfa2</i>
<br />
Why it has 1/1000 ?
Was it FED S ?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

#183321 is listed with 1/1000 too, so this makes sense too.

Reply author: Vlad

Replied on: 20160518085921

that's a FED-S, I have a 1e FED-S also with 1/1000 but regular 3.5 lens. Will look at serial # later if you guys are interested. it's in 17XXXXX range..

Reply author: Alfa2

Replied on: 20160518092310


Sure Vlad, and S/N of the lens pls.

Reply author: uwittehh

Replied on: 20160520165041

My serials:

- 176328 Lens FED 1:2/50 27183
- 176810 Lens I-10 137814
- 182433 Lens I-10 105593

Ulrich





http://fotos.cconin.de

Reply author: Luiz Paracampo

Replied on: 20160520190746

Giving the right url and translation of Zoom page:


<b>http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/misc/gko-2445.html</b>

Top secret
Ruling
State Defense Committee
Number 2445 cc
Moscow Kremlin

October 23, 1942


On the selection of opto-mechanical production from the plant number 296 Narkomaviaproma and transfer it to the system Narkomvooruzheniya

State Defense Committee decided:

1. Cancel Item 4 Resolution GFCS 2140 pp 1) of 4 August 1942 relating to the transfer of the plant number 296 2) Narkomaviaproma’ in Narkomvooruzheniya’ system.

2. To instruct the Narkomaviaprom - T Shakhurin pass before November 1 of this year on factories Narkomvooruzheniya optical optical-mechanical manufacturing factory number 296 in the formulation.:
a) all work in progress for all opto-mechanical, civil and military instruments, manufactures and previously produced on the factory number 296;
b) all equipment, tools and equipment for the production of optical components and assemblies of optical instruments and 30% of the total number of factory normal cutting and measuring tools for metalworking;
c) reserves all metals, glass and other optical materials available in the plant for production of opto-mechanical devices;
d) metal cutting, optical and other equipment, according to Annex 3);
d) all workers, engineers and technicians working in the optical and assembly plants in the optical manufacturing plant and 20% of workers in the mechanical and instrumental workshops.

3. To instruct the Narkomvooruzheniya - ing. Ustinova translate transmitted, according to paragraph 2 of this resolution, optical-mechanical part of the production plant number 296 on the Siberian group of optical factories Narkomvooruzheniya 4).

4. To instruct the People's Commissariat - ing. Hrulev select cars in the amount and timing of application Narkomvooruzheniya for transportation of equipment, materials and people from the factory 296 Narkomaviaproma (Mountains. Berdsk Novosibirsk Region) optical Narkomvooruzheniya plants.


Chairman of the State Defense Committee
I. Stalin

xxxxxxxxx

Top secret
Chairman of the State Defense Committee
Comrade I. V. Stalin
Here we present a draft Resolution of the State Defense Committee, "On the selection of opto-mechanical production from the plant number 296 Narkomaviaproma and transfer it to the system Narkomvooruzheniya".

Currently, the plant number 296 manufactured pumps for direct injection aircraft engines, power tools and military optical instruments.
Available in three different factory production complicates the process and does not provide further their normal development.

The draft regulation provides for the allocation of optical-mechanical manufacturing plant number 296 on Narkomvooruzheniya plants and leaving the factory number 296 in Narkomaviaproma system for the production of pumps and power (motors) of direct injection.
L. Beria
D. Ustinov
P. Dementiev

October 22, 1942
Nº LB-2788

Narkomaviaprom - National Comitee of airplane production
Narkomvooruzheniya - National Comitee of weapon (production)

Reply author: Vlad

Replied on: 20160522105941

Alfa2,

As promised my serial #s for the pseudo-Berdsk:

177511 Lens: FED F3.5, inside serial #5701
178482 1/1000 speed (FED-S), Lens FED F3.5, inside serial #9607

Reply author: Alfa2

Replied on: 20160522140312

Thanks Vlad and Ulrich.

Especially interesting is pseudo-Berdsk FED S.


Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20170219105944

I dig out this thread after having tried to read this article:
http://photolubitel.com/index.php?route=module/kbm/article&kbm_article_id=9

Thanks, Luiz, for the link!
It seems, if I understand correctly the first part, that many (all? some?) Fed 1 have an inscription inside, giving the date of manufacture.

I have checked some of my Fed 1, and my last 1e s/n 183231 has 30 VIII engraved inside. So, it should have been made the 30 of august 1941, certainly at Kharkov, like all the other numbered 1e we know.

Amitiés. Jacques.

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20170222104432


To complete this thread, following the article of photolubitel, the internal inscriptions of my Fed 1e:

- 175011: not readable,
- 180971 S: 3 VIII
- 182912: 4 III
- 183231: 30 VIII

Many of my Fed 1 have this inscription made with a needle. The place seems on the shutter box, in the cassette house (under the rewind button). But it should be necessary to dismount partially the camera to see that perfectly.

My 182912 seems out of the lines, with its 4 III...[:)]

Amitiés. Jacques.

Reply author: basic-collector

Replied on: 20200720160107

Hello, thanks to all of you guys for the very interesting posts!
I think that someone expert has to edit the Wiki page, a lot confusing indeed!
I mean this one
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FED_(camera)

cheers

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20200721084225

Ha, ha!
This part of wikipedia is much better, though not perfect:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FED_%28camera%29

Another Fed 1e, here. The s/n 183613, one of the last ones.
The date inside is 16/X or 16/XI, so after the evacuation. Could it be a "real" Berdsk? It's a pity we don't have the dates of control for the very last 1e-s, up to c. 184000, as it seems.

Of course, there can be other explanations: repair, re-mounting with other parts, etc.

Something else interesting: the lens is a collapsible macro, s/n 2121. But is it the original one? I don't know.

Amitiés. Jacques.

Reply author: basic-collector

Replied on: 20200725105358

Here another camera to add to the list, &#8470;175553 from a seller on ebay
https://www.ebay.com/itm/FED-BERDSKI-type-1e-Vintage-WWII-1945-Russian-Original-Camera-copy-Leica-II-D/143657847916?hash=item2172accc6c:g:F7IAAOSweFhewZH4

It seems strange inside, looking from the opened bottom... what's your feelings?

Reply author: basic-collector

Replied on: 20200725110208

Two more... n.179919 https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-FED-1-E-Zorki-NKVD-sn-179919-1-3-5-F-50M-M-Original-Case-1000pcs-serie/373007503343?hash=item56d8facfef:g:w64AAOSwv-ledOPm
and n.176931
https://www.ebay.com/itm/FED-Type-1e-Berdsk-Rangefinder-Camera-3-5-50-M39-Leica-Mount-USSR/174310750899?hash=item2895bafab3:g:-hAAAOSwYfBe3ojC

The interesting thing is that each seller tells a different story ... :-)

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20200726091322

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by basic-collector</i>
<br />Here another camera to add to the list, &#8470;175553 from a seller on ebay
https://www.ebay.com/itm/FED-BERDSKI-type-1e-Vintage-WWII-1945-Russian-Original-Camera-copy-Leica-II-D/143657847916?hash=item2172accc6c:g:F7IAAOSweFhewZH4

It seems strange inside, looking from the opened bottom... what's your feelings?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes, I had seen it.
It looks like a spring for cameras with a delaying mechanism. Probably a home made modification...
Thanks for the numbers.

Jacques.

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20200811095647

I have just dismounted my 1e s/n 183613 (though very reluctantly) to know more about that camera. Here are some photos:

http://www.ussrphoto.com/resize/resize_image.aspx?ImgWd=800&IptFl=/UserContent2/1182020_IMG_0152.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/1182020_IMG_0152.JPG

http://www.ussrphoto.com/resize/resize_image.aspx?ImgWd=800&IptFl=/UserContent2/1182020_IMG_0161.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/1182020_IMG_0161.JPG

http://www.ussrphoto.com/resize/resize_image.aspx?ImgWd=800&IptFl=/UserContent2/1182020_IMG_0169.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/1182020_IMG_0169.JPG

I have plenty of others, if necessary!

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20200811101445


At first sight, all seems correct for a 1e. Except, of course, the date 16/X. If this camera is completely original, that would mean that some very late 1e were mounted after the evacuation, possibly at Berdsk.

Concerning this s/n 183613, the shutters are original, and I found nothing really strange when taking it to pieces, except that the lensplate is not shimmed, and that it seems not perfectly centered on the body. Perhaps difficult conditions of mounting at Berdsk?

The last 1e known is the s/n 183906, by Alexey Nikitin's site. As far as I know, we don't know the internal inscription of date on the very late 1e.

Amitiés. Jacques.

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20201013112246


Two other Fed 1e here:

- the S # 178311 with the 2/50mm # 32348. Date inside: 8 VII, more or less coherent with the other dates we have,
- the S # 183209, with a macro collapsible Fed lens. In fact, all comes from a Fed-Zorki camera, except the cover![:D] Beautiful leatherette, perfectly working. And no date inside (contrarily to Fed, KMZ did not have that "tradition").

Jacques.

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20230121084909

A 1e more here. In fact, an S with a surprise:

http://www.ussrphoto.com/resize/resize_image.aspx?ImgWd=800&IptFl=/UserContent2/2112023_IMG_0924.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/2112023_IMG_0924.JPG

The "20-1" was engraved for the Fed B: coupling with the slow speed machanism. Rather rare!
All the rest is common, alas. I hoped some traces on the shutter box, but all is regular...

http://www.ussrphoto.com/resize/resize_image.aspx?ImgWd=800&IptFl=/UserContent2/2112023_IMG_0925.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/2112023_IMG_0925.JPG

http://www.ussrphoto.com/resize/resize_image.aspx?ImgWd=800&IptFl=/UserContent2/2112023_IMG_0927.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/2112023_IMG_0927.JPG

Amitiés. Jacques.

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20230121092101


I had forgotten: 31 VIII (1941) is engraved inside on the shutter box. It's the last day found for these cameras, though the last s/n is 183892 in our wiki, 183906 by Alexei Nikitin's site...
Was this camera delayed for some reason, or the mounting at the factory went on later in september?
I own the 183613 with 16 X inside, but I doubt...

Amitiés. Jacques.

Reply author: uwittehh

Replied on: 20230122140653

Jacques,

congratulations to that rarity!

My latest FED Berdsk has serial number 182433 and the numbers 5 VIII scratched on the shutter housing.

Ulrich

http://fotos.cconin.de

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20230210092001


Thanks, Ulrich!

I received another 1e S some days ago, in very bad condition, but for nothing (or almost).
In fact, the rewind button was lacking (easy to re-place), but the release button was absent too. So, no connecting rod towards the release spring, no command of the main drum, etc. My first idea was to keep it for parts.

But a 1e S is not such common... Here is the result. The body is still a wreck, but the missing parts are in place. It is always non working:
the curtains must be changed and the mechanism checked. But I had a lot of fun!

http://www.ussrphoto.com/resize/resize_image.aspx?ImgWd=800&IptFl=/UserContent2/1022023_IMG_0979.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/1022023_IMG_0979.JPG

Reply author: Jacques M.

Replied on: 20230210092521


An oddity on the body: a hole in the back, so probably to check the register. But there is no hole in the press-film...

http://www.ussrphoto.com/resize/resize_image.aspx?ImgWd=800&IptFl=/UserContent2/1022023_IMG_0980.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/1022023_IMG_0980.JPG

That time, no date on the shutter-box for this s/n 174942.

Amitiés. Jacques.