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T O P I C    R E V I E W
okynek Posted - Jan 21 2008 : 9:49:23 PM
before I mess up this katalog, it was one camera on eBay #280190465127:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=280190465127&ssPageName=STRK:MEDW:IT&ih=018


I'm not sure if it should go in it.
50   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Jacques M. Posted - Feb 22 2017 : 10:44:32 AM

To complete this thread, following the article of photolubitel, the internal inscriptions of my Fed 1e:

- 175011: not readable,
- 180971 S: 3 VIII
- 182912: 4 III
- 183231: 30 VIII

Many of my Fed 1 have this inscription made with a needle. The place seems on the shutter box, in the cassette house (under the rewind button). But it should be necessary to dismount partially the camera to see that perfectly.

My 182912 seems out of the lines, with its 4 III...

Amitiés. Jacques.
Jacques M. Posted - Feb 19 2017 : 10:59:44 AM
I dig out this thread after having tried to read this article:
http://photolubitel.com/index.php?route=module/kbm/article&kbm_article_id=9

Thanks, Luiz, for the link!
It seems, if I understand correctly the first part, that many (all? some?) Fed 1 have an inscription inside, giving the date of manufacture.

I have checked some of my Fed 1, and my last 1e s/n 183231 has 30 VIII engraved inside. So, it should have been made the 30 of august 1941, certainly at Kharkov, like all the other numbered 1e we know.

Amitiés. Jacques.
Alfa2 Posted - May 22 2016 : 2:03:12 PM
Thanks Vlad and Ulrich.

Especially interesting is pseudo-Berdsk FED S.


Vlad Posted - May 22 2016 : 10:59:41 AM
Alfa2,

As promised my serial #s for the pseudo-Berdsk:

177511 Lens: FED F3.5, inside serial #5701
178482 1/1000 speed (FED-S), Lens FED F3.5, inside serial #9607
Luiz Paracampo Posted - May 20 2016 : 7:07:46 PM
Giving the right url and translation of Zoom page:


http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/misc/gko-2445.html

Top secret
Ruling
State Defense Committee
Number 2445 cc
Moscow Kremlin

October 23, 1942


On the selection of opto-mechanical production from the plant number 296 Narkomaviaproma and transfer it to the system Narkomvooruzheniya

State Defense Committee decided:

1. Cancel Item 4 Resolution GFCS 2140 pp 1) of 4 August 1942 relating to the transfer of the plant number 296 2) Narkomaviaproma’ in Narkomvooruzheniya’ system.

2. To instruct the Narkomaviaprom - T Shakhurin pass before November 1 of this year on factories Narkomvooruzheniya optical optical-mechanical manufacturing factory number 296 in the formulation.:
a) all work in progress for all opto-mechanical, civil and military instruments, manufactures and previously produced on the factory number 296;
b) all equipment, tools and equipment for the production of optical components and assemblies of optical instruments and 30% of the total number of factory normal cutting and measuring tools for metalworking;
c) reserves all metals, glass and other optical materials available in the plant for production of opto-mechanical devices;
d) metal cutting, optical and other equipment, according to Annex 3);
d) all workers, engineers and technicians working in the optical and assembly plants in the optical manufacturing plant and 20% of workers in the mechanical and instrumental workshops.

3. To instruct the Narkomvooruzheniya - ing. Ustinova translate transmitted, according to paragraph 2 of this resolution, optical-mechanical part of the production plant number 296 on the Siberian group of optical factories Narkomvooruzheniya 4).

4. To instruct the People's Commissariat - ing. Hrulev select cars in the amount and timing of application Narkomvooruzheniya for transportation of equipment, materials and people from the factory 296 Narkomaviaproma (Mountains. Berdsk Novosibirsk Region) optical Narkomvooruzheniya plants.


Chairman of the State Defense Committee
I. Stalin

xxxxxxxxx

Top secret
Chairman of the State Defense Committee
Comrade I. V. Stalin
Here we present a draft Resolution of the State Defense Committee, "On the selection of opto-mechanical production from the plant number 296 Narkomaviaproma and transfer it to the system Narkomvooruzheniya".

Currently, the plant number 296 manufactured pumps for direct injection aircraft engines, power tools and military optical instruments.
Available in three different factory production complicates the process and does not provide further their normal development.

The draft regulation provides for the allocation of optical-mechanical manufacturing plant number 296 on Narkomvooruzheniya plants and leaving the factory number 296 in Narkomaviaproma system for the production of pumps and power (motors) of direct injection.
L. Beria
D. Ustinov
P. Dementiev

October 22, 1942
Nº LB-2788

Narkomaviaprom - National Comitee of airplane production
Narkomvooruzheniya - National Comitee of weapon (production)
uwittehh Posted - May 20 2016 : 4:50:41 PM
My serials:

- 176328 Lens FED 1:2/50 27183
- 176810 Lens I-10 137814
- 182433 Lens I-10 105593

Ulrich





http://fotos.cconin.de
Alfa2 Posted - May 18 2016 : 09:23:10 AM

Sure Vlad, and S/N of the lens pls.

Vlad Posted - May 18 2016 : 08:59:21 AM
that's a FED-S, I have a 1e FED-S also with 1/1000 but regular 3.5 lens. Will look at serial # later if you guys are interested. it's in 17XXXXX range..
Lenny Posted - May 18 2016 : 07:56:33 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Alfa2


Why it has 1/1000 ?
Was it FED S ?



#183321 is listed with 1/1000 too, so this makes sense too.
Alfa2 Posted - May 18 2016 : 07:43:48 AM

Why it has 1/1000 ?
Was it FED S ?


Lenny Posted - May 18 2016 : 07:42:34 AM
Thanks Aleksandrov,

it's really amazing that so many Fed-1e look so good,
as if they were never used,
as if they were not bought from someone who wants to use it,
as if they were gifts maybe for outstanding military performance.

I put it in the wiki under FED-1e too, to be complete.
Aleksandrov66 Posted - May 18 2016 : 07:18:24 AM
Good day everyone!
Yesterday i was offered to buy (i didn't) camera n.183428.
I'd like to share a photo (s\n is already in the wiki):

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1852016_untitled.jpg

Unfortunately, i got only one picture.

AlexanderK Posted - May 17 2016 : 12:08:13 PM
Hello guys,
here are my Berdsk-cameras:

- 176426
- 182602

... unfortunately without any papers.

Regards, Alexander
elnur Posted - May 16 2016 : 1:49:15 PM
Oh, sorry. You r right Lenny. Made mistake.
Lenny Posted - May 16 2016 : 1:10:35 PM
Thanks Elnur,

on the passport I read #177512. Is the camera #177572 ?
elnur Posted - May 16 2016 : 12:40:12 PM
and one more 177572 from 1st of July 41
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1652016_pr1Pp27EESg.jpg

Vlad Posted - May 16 2016 : 10:49:15 AM
Here are a few more serial #s and dates for the 1e, courtesy of Elnur:

163623 March 22 1941
164716 March 18 1941
175116 June 21 1941
177611 July 3 1941
178319 July 12 1941
180024 July 31 1941
181100 July 30 1941

Cheers,
Vlad
elnur Posted - May 16 2016 : 09:58:25 AM
Thank You all for the warm welcome! I am very pleased )
About packing cameras. I'm certainly not a historian, and do not have enough facts to say it all. But a fresh idea will not harm us. I did not mean that the passports were written in advance. But on the contrary that there had been a batch of cameras, which later had to undergo some checking. After the devices are tested, Packed and were issued certificates. And the devices that were problematic were returned for repair. And possibly from the earlier numbers, but with the late date in the certificate. I think that's why there's the confusion.
Jacques M. Posted - May 15 2016 : 03:54:42 AM

Thanks, Vlad, and welcome to you, Elnur!

So, passports show the date of sale. That completely changes the point of view, of course! No possibility to calculate a precise production from the serial numbers, for example. And the 1e were very probably made entirely before the evacuation. No more problem, unless perhaps about the last ones. Were they sold too? When? Always before evacuation? Or reserved to the Red Army, as I had guessed somewhere, half by joke?

No doubt you will help us to put some missing pieces on this entangled puzzle, Elnur. Thanks...

Amitiés. Jacques.
Lenny Posted - May 15 2016 : 02:38:20 AM
Thanks Elnur.
This makes sense, that the passports were written when the cameras were packaged for sale.
It doesn't make sense that passport dates were written in advance, because once they needed to package the cameras they would need to search for the passports, when writing a passport just takes 1 minute.
Of course the cameras were not sold consecutive to their serial numbers. Cameras with higher serials could be sold earlier.

Later this might have changed little bit when they only wrote the month and year in the passports.
Vlad Posted - May 15 2016 : 12:32:09 AM
Welcome Elnur, it's great to have another big FED expert in our midst! What Elnur is trying to say ( I had earlier conversation with him) is that the dates on passports are not the dates of manufacture but the dates of sale. Not all of batches of these cameras would get sold at the same time. These dates on passports are filled in when the cameras are sold, sometimes they would be sold in different sequence and sometimes would sit on shelves of the store for a while so the dates are not actual manufacture dates. Also when cameras are returned to factory for repair because of defects they would get issued new dates on passports.

It's a pleasure and honor to have you here, Elnur! I hope to see more of your participation!

Vlad
Lenny Posted - May 14 2016 : 5:32:33 PM
quote:
Originally posted by elnur

Good evening guys! why do you think that this is the date of manufacture? I now intended that this date of packaging. and the production of the marriage took place, in consequence of that, some parties came back to troubleshoot.



Hello Elnur,

I don't exactly understand what you want to say,
but congratulations to your FIRST POST.
elnur Posted - May 14 2016 : 3:16:35 PM
Good evening guys! why do you think that this is the date of manufacture? I now intended that this date of packaging. and the production of the marriage took place, in consequence of that, some parties came back to troubleshoot.
Lenny Posted - May 13 2016 : 10:09:15 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.


BTW, I have found, always on Alexey's site, the s/n 175524, with the same date of 21/6/41... It goes towards the same way. I add it in my precedent listing.



So the passports of #175118 and #175524 were written on the same day. At first sight people might think that they also wrote all other passports between those two serials on the same day. But that might not be the case. Cameras didn't finish production consecutive to their serials. They were only consecutive engraved during production.

These 2 cameras finished production 12 weeks before evacuation. A production of #183892 (last 1e in the wiki) before evacuation seems possible. They were able to produce 9000 cameras in 12 weeks.
Zoom Posted - May 13 2016 : 3:54:08 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Lenny

...and they set up a table with information about Joschkar-Ola, which Zoom calls a not reliable sourse and a piece made in delirium.


The Kinap plant from Odessa was transferred to the plant No.297 NKV in Yoshkar-Ola.
Used documents:
GKO Order No.374ss -- August 2, 1941.
GKO Order No.681ss -- September 16, 1941.
Cited also: The Economic Council of the SNK USSR Order No.1880-564s -- December 6, 1940.
Source: Russian State Archive of Socio-Political History (RGASPI), fund (ôîíä): 644, inventory (îïèñü): 2, cases (äåëî): 10 (list 39, par. 16) and 18 (list 84).
Lenny Posted - May 13 2016 : 12:39:41 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.


Bravo for this personal interpretation with buckets



Jacques, please check Princelle's book, page 124 ok, they don't look like buckets, more like container
Lenny Posted - May 13 2016 : 12:23:30 PM
Jacques, I forgot where I saw it, but I saw a photo of Zorki production when they molded the top plates I think, and there was a bucket so big that a person could hide in it Sure Zorki was real mass production.

Jacques, it seems you never saw passport #168018. I can tell you, I never saw it too. I might have gotten the information about #168018 from the wiki. As long as we don't have prove that this passport exists we should put the information on hold. Maybe someone from the BFM put that information there. Do you know the BFM, the Berdsk Fake Mafia. Then this Mafia spread the news that even Fed-1d were produced in Berdsk and they set up a table with information about Joschkar-Ola, which Zoom calls a not reliable sourse and a piece made in delirium.

But I can tell you, I saw the passport #164716.
Jacques M. Posted - May 13 2016 : 11:48:29 AM

Bravo for this personal interpretation with buckets, quality control and errors of writing! It's a long time since I have been keen on Feds, and I never saw so clearly how they worked inside the factory. Thanks!

That said, once more, it is always not completely impossible that Fed 1e were entirely made in Kharkov. But, even if there can be a mistake (!), I go on doubting, specially for the last 2-3000 last ones for which we don't have passport. We can suppose that the emergency was rather on the evacuation. But I repeat myself and now this discussion is finished for me, unless there is a new fact, of course!
Lenny Posted - May 13 2016 : 09:22:53 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.


We just have to try and understand. Not to correct anything.

But all that is boring. Once more time, that turns into a personal quarrel. I am not interested.



Yes, we have to understand that lower serial numbers are also at the bottom of the bucket during production and will be assembled later. We have to understand that quality control can put cameras on hold. We have to understand that there are not only engraving errors with digits missing or digits added, there can also be errors when writting VI instead of IV on a passport. But all information together shows a very accurate picture which is enough to know what kind of production was possible at that time.
Jacques M. Posted - May 13 2016 : 09:02:55 AM

We just have to try and understand. Not to correct anything.

But all that is boring. Once more time, that turns into a personal quarrel. I am not interested.

Lenny Posted - May 13 2016 : 08:40:26 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.

The passport of the S s/n 180024 was established on a Kharkov paper. We don't know for the others.

We have a real problem of comprehension between number of cameras/passports/location of production concerning these Fed 1e.



#164716 is Lesopark 54 too. I have a photo.
Lenny Posted - May 13 2016 : 08:31:25 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.

quote:
If the majority of passport match our calculation we are pretty much on the right side.



Just no.



Then you have to believe that they produced 7100 cameras in 3 days (#168018-#175118). And in this case you are VERY WRONG.

And you have to believe that they produced 3302 cameras in 92 days (#164716-#168018).
Lenny Posted - May 13 2016 : 08:25:10 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.

You are funny, Lenny. You chose the passports which agree you. And you ask me to forget two of them. But I cannot!

I think we have questions to put concerning the passports and their exact correlation with cameras. This period june/september 1941 was exceptional, and Fed could have used urgency procedures...



Jacques, there is no correct correlation as some might think. As we can see, #181100 was produced 1 day before #180024. But we are very correct if we say they were both made in July. #168018 is just an bad example to calculate with, but we know they were not able to produce 7100 cameras within 3 days. We know it's impossible to produce cameras consecutive to their serials. Then there is the quality control which put some cameras on hold. We are pretty much on the right side with all other passports.
Jacques M. Posted - May 13 2016 : 08:10:19 AM
quote:
If the majority of passport match our calculation we are pretty much on the right side.



Just no.
Lenny Posted - May 13 2016 : 08:02:46 AM
Jacques, there could be other possibilities.
Imagine, camera #168018 was produced and didn't pass the quality control, so it had to be repaired.
We should follow of course the passports we have, but not all. If the majority of passport match our calculation we are pretty much on the right side.

Also we have to understand how the serials were produced. For examle serial #160000 was engraved and was put in an big empty bucket. Later #160999 was engraved and was put on top of the bucket which is now full of engraved top plates. Next step in production is assembling. It starts with the top plate on top of the bucket, #160999. Much later top plate #160000 was assembled.

That's why passports #180024 and #181100 can both be true, even if passport #181100 was written the day before. But we calculate with #180024 till evacuation which is much harder than if we calculated with #181100.
Jacques M. Posted - May 13 2016 : 07:55:20 AM

What can I say?
You are funny, Lenny. You chose the passports which agree you. And you ask me to forget two of them. But I cannot!

I think we have questions to put concerning the passports and their exact correlation with cameras. This period june/september 1941 was exceptional, and Fed could have used urgency procedures...

Jacques.

Lenny Posted - May 13 2016 : 07:38:46 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Lenny

From #164716 till #168018 they produced 252 cameras per week according to the passports, very less.
From #168018 till #175118 they produced 17750 per week. Easy to recognize a mistake here.



If we calculate with month IV (April) instead of VI (June) we will get an amazing result. What I quoted above will change to THIS.

From #164716 till #168018 they produced 750 cameras per week.
From #168018 till #175118 they produced 780 per week.
Amazing right

It's just a human mistake, who is used to write with roman figures.
Lenny Posted - May 13 2016 : 07:21:34 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.

I postule that the only way to understand the situation is to follow the documents we have, not to criticize them.



Of course, but we have to check if the numbers are possible.
From #164716 till #168018 they produced 252 cameras per week according to the passports, very less.
From #168018 till #175118 they produced 17750 per week. Easy to recognize a mistake here.
But from #164716 till #175118 they produced 765 cameras per week. This is possible and seems very accurate.
Just forget about passport #168018. Also forget about passport #181100. Calculate from #180024 till the last in the wiki #183892 and it's 586 cameras per week till evacuation.
Now if we calculate with 765 per week from #180024 till evacuation a camera #185073 could be possible. So we are pretty much on the safe side that all were produced in Kharkov before evacuation.
Jacques M. Posted - May 13 2016 : 06:53:35 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Lenny

Jacques, now I understand why 12000. Forget about this passport #168018, it is out off the line of other passports.

It could simply be that they wrote 18 VI 1941 instead of 18 IV 1941 for #168018.



There, I cannot follow you. I postule that the only way to understand the situation is to follow the documents we have, not to criticize them. Even if they don't make us pleasure!

BTW, I have found, always on Alexey's site, the s/n 175524, with the same date of 21/6/41... It goes towards the same way. I add it in my precedent listing.

Jacques.
Jacques M. Posted - May 13 2016 : 06:42:27 AM
quote:

Why do you think of 12000 cameras?



181100 - 168018 # 13000 cameras in 42 days. Of course impossible.
And 7000 cameras in 3 days it's impossible too!
The passport of the S s/n 180024 was established on a Kharkov paper. We don't know for the others.

Of course, the passports can have been filled in a hurry after the parts were made for the corresponding cameras. But it doesn't enlighten the whole question.

We have a real problem of comprehension between number of cameras/passports/location of production concerning these Fed 1e.


Jacques.
Lenny Posted - May 13 2016 : 05:56:54 AM
Jacques, now I understand why 12000. Forget about this passport #168018, it is out off the line of other passports.

It could simply be that they wrote 18 VI 1941 instead of 18 IV 1941 for #168018.
Lenny Posted - May 13 2016 : 05:43:24 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.

the timing seems unrealistic by the passports we have (I have added dates and numbers found on Alexey's site):
- s/n 175118 : 21/6/41,
- s/n 181100 : 30/7/41,
To produce 12000 cameras in 45 days is impossible.

All the remaining materials were transferred to Krasnogorsk in 1942.



Jacques, as I understood it the Fed equipment was transferred to KOMZ in November 1942 and was stored there till it was transferred to Arsenal in Febuary 1945. KMZ might have gotten everything after Arsenal stopped producing as Altix assumed.

Why do you think of 12000 cameras?

Where did you find those 2 passports?
Zoom Posted - May 13 2016 : 12:58:04 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.


All the remaining materials were transferred to Krasnogorsk in 1942.


No. A personnel only. Their number is not known (a list of the names is incomplete). A few dozen people (maximum)...
Zoom Posted - May 13 2016 : 12:47:38 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Luiz Paracampo

Link does not work


Corrected, sorry.
Jacques M. Posted - May 13 2016 : 12:25:19 AM
Thanks Zoom.
So, we are always at the same point, more or less. If I try to summarize:

All the Fed 1e could have been completely produced at Kharkov before evacuation. That said, the timing seems unrealistic by the passports we have (I have added dates and numbers found on Alexey's site):
- s/n 164716 : 18/3/41,
- s/n 168018 : 18/6/41,
- s/n 175118 : 21/6/41,
- s/n 175524 : 21/6/41,
- s/n 181100 : 30/7/41,
- s/n 180024 (S):31/7/41.
To produce 12000 cameras in 45 days is impossible. Were some cameras mounted elsewhere? Or are there "big" holes in the numbering, as the JLP suggests?

It is unlikely that cameras were produced at Berdsk's plant during the war. On the other hand, it's not completely impossible that some were only mounted from parts coming from Kharkov, after the evacuation.

All the remaining materials were transferred to Krasnogorsk in 1942. So, KMZ too could have played his part concerning the mounting of Fed 1e after the war. After all, there is no real difference in quality between Fed-Zorkis and Fed 1e.

Berdsk produced the NKAP "Red Flag", probably from already existing spare parts, in 1946.

Arsenal produced the Fed-Arsenal in 1946-47, in very small numbers, from existing and "home" made parts.

Fed-Kharkov resumed the production in june 1948 (the first Fed 1f).

What an entangled story... The main question remains of course the place of production/mounting for the 1e. We only have hypothesis, absolutely no certitude... Certainly, we miss a major fact?

Amitiés. Jacques.

Luiz Paracampo Posted - May 12 2016 : 10:40:18 PM
reimaging




http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1252016_error1.png

Luiz Paracampo Posted - May 12 2016 : 10:33:11 PM
Link does not work

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1252016_error.png

Zoom Posted - May 12 2016 : 4:59:41 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.

Happy to know that there are documents which prove that there were no Fed made at Berdsk during the war.


This article is not about the production of cameras in Berdsk. But, indeed, the FED production on the plant No.296 NKAP has been discontinued. The plant is fully switched to military production.

quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.

My question was in fact more extensive: can we affirm that there were no Fed mounted during the war, at Berdsk or elsewhere? Are there documents too to prove that?


The FED factory (No.296 NKAP) gave all its optical part according the GKO order No.2445 (23 October 1942).
http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/misc/gko-2445.html
All optical equipment, materials and so on were taken away. Nevertheless, a certain number of cameras left. According to the factory's history book, the plant began to assemble cameras in 1946, as I remember. But there is no documentary evidence to the cameras assembly before February 1946...
Jacques M. Posted - May 12 2016 : 09:31:54 AM
Zoom,

Happy to know that there are documents which prove that there were no Fed made at Berdsk during the war. My question was in fact more extensive: can we affirm that there were no Fed mounted during the war, at Berdsk or elsewhere? Are there documents too to prove that?

Thanks. Jacques.
Zoom Posted - May 12 2016 : 07:36:05 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.

That said, I agree with you at, let us say 90% with what you wrote. Especially about Berdsks which were not made at Berdsk and KMZ which used Fed parts. I had said all that (I was not alone!) in 2013 and earlier. I just wonder what happened so that these ideas have something of official now? Zoom's article? With all the respect due to him, it's not enough. Proofs need documents, and I don't see any. Perhaps I missed something?


I did not notice right away ... If we are talking about the article "ZENIT: prehistory", then there is all based on the documents.

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