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Fed 1e

Created by AidasCams on 1/21/2008 4:23:59 AM
Last Edited by geoffox23 on 5/3/2017 8:55:48 PM  
Located in
Still Cameras > FED 1

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okynek
759 Posts
Posted - Jan 21 2008 :  9:49:23 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
before I mess up this katalog, it was one camera on eBay #280190465127:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=280190465127&ssPageName=STRK:MEDW:IT&ih=018


I'm not sure if it should go in it.

Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1008 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Jan 21 2008 :  10:01:51 PM  Show Profile  Visit nightphoto's Homepage  Reply with Quote

Seems like it should go in as the serial number is in the correct range and what the seller says about the engraving seems right also.

Regards, Bill

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Jacques M.
France
2067 Posts
Posted - Jan 22 2008 :  06:57:48 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

Hello,

It seems we must be careful with the limits 1d/1e.
I already saw several Fed 1 engraved 1d in the #173600/176000. Princelle points them in his book (he says #174000-178000). Probably some 1d pre engraved covers sent to Berdsk and put together there. They are really scarce, but it would be fine to check before putting on a list.

Amitiés. Jacques.


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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
3970 Posts
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Posted - May 28 2008 :  11:50:05 PM  Show Profile  Visit Vlad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
So I am completely lost people... I got 2 books in front of me - Asquini/Pegorari and Princelle 2nd edition:

I also have this camera #177511

Princelle says that these cameras were produced in Siberia with serials on 1e 173600/174000 - c. 183000 and up. So I would assume Berdsk.
Cladio and Albino says the following about the same range: "Towards the end of 1946 the returned to Kharkov is organized and production slowly resumes. Only in 1947 it will be possible to return to full production" ... errrrrr... so while organizing in Kharkov, Berdsk is meanwhile producing this model? I'm confused.. what is the latest news on that? So according to Asquini/Pegorari the 1e is not Berdsk at all?!

Thanks!
Vlad.
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Jacques M.
France
2067 Posts
Posted - May 29 2008 :  08:55:59 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Vlad,
Not an easy question. But this camera -1e type- is called "Berdsk" because we decided so. We, that is to say probably JLP, but not the factory.
In fact, Berdsk is not written on the covers: there is only "made in the factory of FE Dzerjinski, Kharkov".
We can only suppose that some cameras were put together at Berdsk from spares coming from Kharkov: perhaps these rare Fed 1d engraved CCCP after 173600-174000 (up to c. 176000 for some). The real production will begin again in 1946 with those 1e, maybe at Berdsk first then in Kharkov (from 173600-174000 too).

It would be logical, but nothing is sure!

Amitiés. Jacques.

Edited by - Jacques M. on May 29 2008 09:14:52 AM
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576 Posts
Posted - May 29 2008 :  09:26:18 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
From Wiki:
A fairly small number of FED 1 cameras manufactured during wartime 1941-1945 when FED factory was evacuated from Kharkov to Berdsk.



These cameras theoretically could be manufactured in 1942 year (up to October, but not later!), and in the 1945--1946 years (may be from September 1945 to October 1946, but not later again). A two variants are most realistic:
1. Only in 1942 year.
2. Only at the beginning of 1946 year.

Edited by - Zoom on May 29 2008 09:32:10 AM
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Jacques M.
France
2067 Posts
Posted - May 29 2008 :  10:11:52 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

I agree with your dates, Zoom.
Between the two (and after and probably before), Fed worked mainly for aeronautics, hence the NKAP "Red Flag" in 1948 and the TSVVS, if it was made by Fed.

Jacques.

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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1008 Posts
My Collection

Posted - May 29 2008 :  10:36:02 AM  Show Profile  Visit nightphoto's Homepage  Reply with Quote

One of the most helpful things in Princelle iare the "Benchmarks" notes he adds. For this case, I have noticed he writes (below the entry for the "RED FLAG - N.K.A.P."):

"Benchmarks: The FED "RED FLAG" # 201280 is delivered with a passport printed in Berdsk and countersigned the 19 August 1946."

So, I think if a passport was printed in Berdsk in 1946 then the RED FLAG camera (at least the first 1200) may have been made in Berdsk.

Also, comparing the BERSK cameras with the RED FLAG - KNAP FED you will notice many differences in the parts (the castings look different, for example, of the rangefinder housing) and the finish is also much different. So I suspect that the RED FLAGS were actually made in Berdsk when the old parts from Kharkov ran out and the next FED to come out from Kharkov was probably FED-1f.

The "Berdsk" FEDs were probably assembled in Bersk .... maybe in 1942, and sporadically throughout the war, when they were needed, but by 1945 the parts originally made (and engraved) in Kharkov were running out so a new production line had to be built and the new cameras produced were the "RED FLAG - KNAP".

So I think all FEDs with the Berdsk style engraving, and some with the earlier style engraving were assembled in Berdsk. I also think that it is possible that cameras were assembled in Berdsk, more by hand than assembly line, sporadically throughout the war.

But, all is hypothetical and based on some logic, unless more examples with passports are known (and even then only if the passports tell the place of construction or signing).

Regards, Bill

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Jacques M.
France
2067 Posts
Posted - May 29 2008 :  10:48:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Bill,
About passports, DVD show the passport of an S eBerdsk with 31/07/1941 as a date. It would fit your hypothesis. But the date is very next to the evacuation.
It seems the paper was made in Kharkov.

Amitiés. Jacques.

Edited by - Jacques M. on May 29 2008 10:55:28 AM
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576 Posts
Posted - May 29 2008 :  10:57:57 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nightphoto


The "Berdsk" FEDs were probably assembled in Bersk .... maybe in 1942, and sporadically throughout the war, when they were needed, but by 1945 the parts originally made (and engraved) in Kharkov were running out so a new production line had to be built and the new cameras produced were the "RED FLAG - KNAP".


About a "sporadically throughout the war"...
It was one document listed there (page in Russian):
http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/misc/gko-docs.html#n2445 ...

This is the GKO (The State Committee of Defense) Decision (Order) No.2445 from October, 23rd, 1942. "About allocation of optical-mechanical manufacture from structure of factory number 296 NKAP and its transfer to NKV system".

So, from the October, 1942 according this Order the FED factory (number 296 NKAP) had no opportunities, nor the rights to make a cameras. Up to the ~1946 year, as we know...

Edited by - Zoom on May 29 2008 11:04:34 AM
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1008 Posts
My Collection

Posted - May 29 2008 :  11:21:57 AM  Show Profile  Visit nightphoto's Homepage  Reply with Quote

Thanks Zoom, that is an interesting reference and I will read it in translation. Now I see why you have said no manufacture at this time (end of '42 - beginning of '46). So, does it mean that the parts just sat there in Berdsk for 1943-1945 ?



Regards, Bill

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576 Posts
Posted - May 29 2008 :  11:37:08 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nightphoto


So, does it mean that the parts just sat there in Berdsk for 1943-1945 ?


Possibly so. While remains not clear (as there is no text of the order) to whom this optical manufacture (and in what volumes and so on) was transferred... How the optical manufacture was carried out is not clearly too...

P.S. I think, that no return at all existed. Manufacture was restored in Kharkov from scratch.

Edited by - Zoom on May 29 2008 11:43:30 AM
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1008 Posts
My Collection

Posted - May 29 2008 :  12:32:09 PM  Show Profile  Visit nightphoto's Homepage  Reply with Quote

Yes, I think manufacture was restored from scratch too ... because of the big difference from FED- KNAP to the new FED. Maybe FED had some help in setting up the new production from KMZ who already were in production with FED-Zorki & early Zorki-1 ?

Regards, Bill

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Steve
Bull Halsey
USA
229 Posts
Posted - May 29 2008 :  1:12:47 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Now you got me a bit mixed up, but then again it doesn't take too much to mix me up.

I own what I beleive to be a Berdsk-S, #178482.

This particular camera is one of the oldest pieces in my Russian Camera collection. I bought it in 2000.

Now, what am I to look for? Are we checking for authenticity?

Thanks,
Steve
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Jacques M.
France
2067 Posts
Posted - May 29 2008 :  5:52:31 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

About the passports, if you could have a look at the Berdsk S # 180024 of DVD,
-URL http://www.dvdtechcameras.com/collect/fed/fed.htm
-then click on FED S New,
-then go to the last one (before, there are several very strange S...)

The passport is interesting as it shows this curious date -31 VII 1941. Would anybody be kind enough to translate the interesting parts of it (titles, I guess)? Perhaps it would help us to know the origins and dates of these cameras.

Then I agree with Bill about connections between Fed and Zorki. For example, the Fed-KMZ we know, numerous Fed-Zorki and (as it seems)some early Zorki 1a were equipped with the 1/1000th shutter. These shutters were certainly coming from Fed as KMZ never used them after on their 1 series. And the first Fed-Zorki seem to be twins of the last Fed...

But no certitude, as usual...

Amitiés. Jacques.
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1008 Posts
My Collection

Posted - May 29 2008 :  8:22:17 PM  Show Profile  Visit nightphoto's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hi Steve,
Your camera is in the right serial number range and although the FED-S Berdsk is rare, a number of examples are known and I have not seen fakes of it. So we are not so much talking about authenticity, but more about where these cameras, as well as the cameras that came after them, were made. Where they made in Kharkov or Berdsk, and when? So it is more a matter of history than authenticity.

Jacques,
I can read that the passport for camera (FED "Berdsk") serial number 180024 gives an address of "Kharkov, Lesnopark 54"
and also states "NKVD - CCCP ... Kharkovski Kombinat of F.E. Djerzinski". Also that it is a "FED-S". So probably no doubt this camera was finished before any move to Berdsk. Probably just before the move ... or at least they were still using this type of passport (who knows when they would actually make new passports for the new location?

Regards, Bill

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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
3970 Posts
My Collection

Posted - May 29 2008 :  9:18:44 PM  Show Profile  Visit Vlad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Fascinating! But I'm even more confused now.. wasn't it established that the FED-S camera serial #s were mixed in with regular FED 1's? How in the world then a 1800024 FED-S was made in 1941 (DVD's passport)??? Mine is an earlier serial # than this one and that means that it was made before 1941? Then... how can it be Berdsk? Unless I'm missing something about correlation of FED-S serials vs regular serials.. were specific blocks allocated to FED-S ahead of time so the timeline on those is different than regular FEDs and it does not fall under the timeline established by JLP?
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1008 Posts
My Collection

Posted - May 29 2008 :  9:48:26 PM  Show Profile  Visit nightphoto's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hi Vlad,
Yes, if your serial number is earlier than 180024 (you added an extra "0" in your post above)then your camera was made earlier than that camera!
FED-S occurs as early as 1938 and as late as 1941 for sure (possibly later if some were assembled in Berdsk which is at this time unknown). So there are FED-S cameras that are: FED-1 type C, FED-1 type D, FED-1 type E (Berdsk).

FED-S can be any of those and will have the characteristics of those variations, but will also have 1/1000th speed and the f.2 / 50mm lens ( FED-S must have both as they were made with 1/1000 speed and issued with the f.2 lens).

Look at our list on the WIKI entry for FED-S and you will see the full range of serial numbers (although some of the earliest, before 1938, are probably not correct, maybe renumbered or with non-original rangefinder housings, and have a "?" in the list to denote that).

Regards, Bill

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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1008 Posts
My Collection

Posted - May 29 2008 :  9:58:26 PM  Show Profile  Visit nightphoto's Homepage  Reply with Quote
And... as Jacques was mentioning, it seems that their may be some relationship between KMZ and FED just after the war since the FED-Zorki of 1948 & 1949 (and maybe some very early Zorki) often has a 1/1000th speed, even though the later Zorki did not have it. So, maybe it is a question to ask ... Did FED and KMZ interact just after the war when there were so many shortages and new production lines, tooling, etc. needed to be accomplished by both factories ?
As we were discussing in a different post, the early KMZ production of KMZ-FED, FED-Zorki, and Zorki cameras were all thought of as "a FED". So maybe in the beginning of KMZ there was some official idea that it was really a continuation and and enlargement of FED production, which shortly changed into two separate "Leica copies"!

Regards, Bill

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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
3970 Posts
My Collection

Posted - May 29 2008 :  10:09:01 PM  Show Profile  Visit Vlad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
So Bill, are you now saying JLP is not correct in his statement that Berdsk cameras are "serial #173600/174000 - c. 183000 and up". So if mine is 1e with #177xxx with Berdsk type engraving it's not made in Berdsk based on the camera passport that DVD has? Wouldn't that make all Berdsks before 180,000 not be Berdsks then? That they were actually still made in Kharkov before the move?
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1008 Posts
My Collection

Posted - May 29 2008 :  10:26:26 PM  Show Profile  Visit nightphoto's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Vlad,

The thing is, that it is unknown where all of the cameras with this engraving were made. The fact that they are called "Berdsk" is really a misnomer and confusing. They should be called "FED-1E" based on the engraving on the top.

So because the cameras with this engraving style are called "Berdsk" does not mean they were actually made or assembled in Berdsk.

I am not saying JLP is wrong in his serial numbers range (although they may not be exactly accurate). Your camera, if it has the engraving style and serial number is a "Berdsk", but that does not mean it is made in Berdsk.

It is most likely that the serial numbers above 180xxx (or even higher now that we have seen DVDs passport) were assembled in Berdsk, but that earlier ones (173600 - 180000) were made in Kharkov.

Regards, Bill

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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
3970 Posts
My Collection

Posted - May 29 2008 :  10:34:25 PM  Show Profile  Visit Vlad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I see! Now I understand, I was confused by this all-enveloping umbrella of Berdsk name.. I agree, if you call it Berdsk then it should be ones that are actually made in Berdsk, otherwise it's just 1E.. well that sucks then, now I need to find a unit close to 183,000 range...

Thank you very much for the clarification!

Vlad
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1008 Posts
My Collection

Posted - May 29 2008 :  10:40:13 PM  Show Profile  Visit nightphoto's Homepage  Reply with Quote

Right ... but it is uncertain that any are from Berdsk, unless you get one with a passport that says "Berdsk" and I have never seen that, although Princelle says there is a passport with "Berdsk" ... but for a "RED FLAG-KNAP"!

Regards, Bill

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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
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My Collection

Posted - May 29 2008 :  10:42:12 PM  Show Profile  Visit Vlad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I've updated the text in Wiki, please let me know if it's acurate and I understood the result of this discussion correctly.

Thank you!
Vlad
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
3970 Posts
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Posted - May 29 2008 :  10:44:13 PM  Show Profile  Visit Vlad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
oh boy, Bill, another can of worms ... I guess the search continues...
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Juhani Halmeenmaki
cedricfan
Finland
892 Posts
My Collection

Posted - May 29 2008 :  11:11:34 PM  Show Profile  Visit cedricfan's Homepage  Reply with Quote
And this is why I have not yet tried to get me a Berdsk, as it would propably not be one...

Smena rules
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James McGee
James McGee
Azerbaijan
192 Posts
Posted - May 29 2008 :  11:53:55 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hello everyone,
Apologies for my recent absence, I've been stuck out in the wilder parts of Azerbaijan for the past couple of weeks and out of touch. I am now just catching up with all the latest posts.
This subject of the so called "Fed Berdsk" (or Fed 1e)is fascinating. Of course this was an extremely turbulent and difficult time in the history of Fed, and perhaps we can never know the real facts.
I have only one Fed 1e "Berdsk" in my collection. If I remember correctly the serial number begins 174XXX, (I will check when I am back in the UK towards the end of June and enter it into the Wiki).
The main point I want to make is that in addition to the unique engraving on the Fed 1e as opposed to all other Fed 1's my particular "Berdsk" has no visible screws in the baseplate. As far as I know this peculiarity applies only to the Fed 1 e. It would be interesting to know how many or what percentage of the "Berdsk's" from our own collections have this physical difference to other types of the Fed 1. Perhaps this information can be of help in pieceing together this mysterious period in the history of Fed.
Cheers, Jim
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
3970 Posts
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Posted - May 29 2008 :  11:54:39 PM  Show Profile  Visit Vlad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Yes, and to re-answer Steve's question I guess, no Steve, this camera was NOT made in Siberia according to Jacques' and Bill's research I guess but is classified as Berdsk . So it's authentic, it's a Berdsk but not true Berdsk...
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
3970 Posts
My Collection

Posted - May 29 2008 :  11:57:45 PM  Show Profile  Visit Vlad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Good to have you back Jim!

For the uneducated like myself here, what exactly is the baseplate? The bottom plate? and no visible screws you mean no screws? or sunk screws?
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James McGee
James McGee
Azerbaijan
192 Posts
Posted - May 30 2008 :  01:09:23 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hello again,

Juhani, I disagree with your comment,

"And this is why I have not yet tried to get me a Berdsk, as it would propably not be one..."

My point is that the so called "Berdsk" is a type of Fed 1, (Fed 1 e) in it's own right regardless of where it was put together. Maybe it was assembled in Berdsk, maybe it wasn't, and perhaps we will never know.
Nevertheless through this unique Forum and the information that we exchange with each other we are constantly gaining more information about many Soviet cameras, not just the Fed 1 of course, but all Soviet cameras and equipment.
Like many of us collectors who take part in this forum, the Fed 1 to my mind is a very special camera, and the Fed 1 e is especially interesting in as much as the parts must have been manufactured in mid 1941, (just before the move to Berdsk)and that period was withoubt doubt extremely traumatic for the Fed workers and their families especially knowing that the German army were advancing and that soon Kharkov would be in enemy hands.
So to me my "Fed 1 e" counts a valued camera in my collection. Each time I look at it I think of the suffering that those Fed workers must have endured during those difficult times, yet they still continued to work even in the knowledge that they would soon be invaded by the enemy.
Of course will never solve all the mysteries of Fed, but through our exchanges, and the vast knowledge of our members we are constantly moving closer to a better understanding of these times in the history of the Soviet people themselves. How fascinating!!!!
Cheers and regards, Jim
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James McGee
James McGee
Azerbaijan
192 Posts
Posted - May 30 2008 :  01:27:59 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Vlad,

I don't have a Fed 1 to hand at the moment, but as far as I remember there are either two, or three countersunk screws visible on outside of the underside of the baseplate of every type of Fed 1 except for the Fed 1 e.(The baseplate meaning the removable bottom plate of the camera).
On The Fed 1 e that I have these screws are not visible, (The baseplate is "clean" apart from the thumb twist for baseplate removal) As far as I know this physical difference applies only to the fed 1 e "Berdsk". I wish I had the camera with me at the moment so that I could explain more fully, but perhaps Bill, or Jacques can clarify this point better than I am able.
Best regards, Jim
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James McGee
James McGee
Azerbaijan
192 Posts
Posted - May 30 2008 :  02:59:36 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Vlad, Hello again. I need to make a correction about what I said earlier regarding the baseplate screws on the Fed 1 as I may have mislead you. I had said that no screws were visible on the baseplate of a Fed 1 e, when in fact there will be three visible screws, (I had fogotten the screwed tripod mount) which is held by three visible screws.
Now that I remember, there are in fact five screws on the baseplate. Three holding the tripod mount, and two other screws about one and a half inches, or 4cm apart in the centre, and towards one edge of the baseplate. On some Fed 1e,"Berdsk" it is these two latter screws that are not visible.
As far as I can say, if you have doubts about about whether your camera is a "Fed 1 e Berdsk" and it doesn't have these two screws as on all your other Fed 1 cameras, then it is definately a "Berdsk". I hope that I have explained myself clearly this time, if not no doubt others can correct me.
Cheers, Jim.
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Jacques M.
France
2067 Posts
Posted - May 30 2008 :  04:02:52 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hello,
Thanks, Bill for your confirmation.
But I wonder what "Lesopark" means? Has anybody an idea? Is it the general address for Fed factories? If we look at other passports(always in DVD collection), we only find "Lesopark 27" and "Lesopark 54". Are they units of productions, buildings? Perhaps the two...

So, as for me, I own two 1e which are probably from Berdsk (180971 for the S and 182912). To Jim: they both have their 5 screws on the baseplate.

If we try to summarize, we could say that:
-A part of the 1e were made in Kharkov, probably up to c. 180000 at least,
-Then the 1e were made in Berdsk (# c. 180000 to c. 184000), perhaps only till the end of 1942, according to Zoom.
-The production officially ceased and resumed in 1946 with the NKAP Red Flag, always in Berdsk. Maybe they were all made in Berdsk.
-The factory was restored in Kharkov and the post WW2 production begins with the new Fed 1f.

How does that sound ?(with many perhaps and maybe!)
What puzzles me a bit is that interruption in the serial numbers between c. 184000 and 200000. Possibly they started their new numeration to celebrate the new factory. But in that case, the NKAP would have been made entirelyin Kharkov... And the passport mentioned by Princelle says the contrary.

So we jump from a mystery to an other. We have lost about 16000 Fed. But did they ever exist? Has anybody seen them? Sherlock Holmes, help!

Amitiés. Jacques.

Edited by - Jacques M. on May 30 2008 06:49:20 AM
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Posted - May 30 2008 :  07:26:49 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.

But I wonder what "Lesopark" means?


A forest park. There: address.

Some time graduation:
30 December 1938 (SNK order) and 7 January 1939 (NKVD order) "kommuna" was reorganized to "kombinat" (industrial complex) leaded by NKVD (USSR). (SNK -- Sovet Narodnykh Komissarov -- the Government)
From 22 February 1941 (by SNK order) the FED plant was leaded by NKAP (aviation industry department).
From September to December 1941 -- the evacuation to Berdsk.
According the GKO order from 23.10.1942 all plant optical manufactory transferred to NKV.
In 1942 all FED electric drills manufactoring was transferred to Tushino, Moscow.
Labour Red Banner (Flag) order decorating -- 16 September 1945.
From 09.09.1946 -- the re-evacuation to Kharkov.
A recommencement -- up to 1948 year.
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Jacques M.
France
2067 Posts
Posted - May 30 2008 :  08:14:18 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

Very precious for the history of Fed!
Many thanks, Zoom.

Jacques.
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Steve
Bull Halsey
USA
229 Posts
Posted - May 30 2008 :  6:08:54 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You see ?

This is why you should collect Leica's !! :-)

Made in Wetzlar almost forever. :-)

No brain drain. :-)

Steve :-)
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
3970 Posts
My Collection

Posted - May 30 2008 :  6:47:46 PM  Show Profile  Visit Vlad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Steve - LOL! For me it's not even a choice - money-wise it's either 270 Russian cameras or 3 Leicas. .

Jim, I will check my camera first opportunity I get, thank you for that bit of info.

One thing I've thought of I don't see why can't we start our own re-classification of some cameras here... I know it will get confusing if people go by JLP but do we have enough experts here to create our own system. One thing with print medium is once it's out, it's set in stone unless next edition comes out. And good thing about having a web site that we can easily change stuff right away.

Vlad

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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
3970 Posts
My Collection

Posted - May 30 2008 :  11:29:32 PM  Show Profile  Visit Vlad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Jim, I still have 5 visible screws on my 1e.. I don't think these screws mean much... they probably went away with them sometime in mid-production of 1e... My serial # is somewhere above in this forum thread.

Vlad.
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James McGee
James McGee
Azerbaijan
192 Posts
Posted - May 30 2008 :  11:57:57 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Vlad,

As far as I know, (and I could be wrong) if a Fed 1 has only three visible screws in the base, then it is definately a Fed 1 e, assuming that other parameters are correct, engraving, etc.
I assume that there are also quite a few of these cameras with five visible screws, so they are also genuine Fed 1 e, providing other criteria matches of course.
I really can't imagine that anybody would try to fake one of these cameras when could just as easily fake a "Red Flag" and ask a much higher price.
My particular Fed 1 e has only three visible screws in the base, and to be perfectly honest I would never have noticed but for reading about this in Princelle and later checking just out of interest and curiosity. JLP himself says that only some Fed 1 e camera baseplates show this difference, but he doesn't say how many.
Cheers,Jim.

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Dayton nathandayton
USA
95 Posts
My Collection

Posted - May 31 2008 :  05:10:48 AM  Show Profile  Visit nathandayton's Homepage  Reply with Quote
You are all trying to make the FED factory fit the western mold. With distinct hard transitions at specific times!

It was more like: Well we still have parts so lets "waste not want not" and use them all before we change to the new design! Or, we already know how to meet production goals with this design! Lets not take a chance on missing the goals until we have to!

Let me give a concrete example. Final QC for the Pentacon Six was done at the camera shop not the factory in the DDR. When you bought one, the shop checked that it was fully functional in front of you before they sold it to you. Compare this to modern cameras where they hand you the box, batteries and say good bye.
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Jacques M.
France
2067 Posts
Posted - Jun 04 2008 :  09:12:25 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

Hello,

I agree with you about that question of screws, Nathan. It was easy to mix bodies and baseplates at the factory and it is always the case now.

About the period 1941-46, there is another passport, always at DVD's, which is very interesting and puzzling. It is the one of a 1d, signed the 18/06/1941, serial number: 168018 for a "normal" 1d(non S). Previously, we had discussed of a 1eS # 180024, passport signed the 31/07/1941.

The substraction is easy: 12000 passports in 45 days, 270 passports in a day... It seems impossible, but we know absolutely nothing about the local and historical circumstances.

Or one of the passports is a fake, but I don't think so. And the 1S don't have a special range: they were always numbered amongst the regular NKVD.

Personally, I always think that our hypothesis (1e made in Kharkov till # c. 180000) is valid. The factory probably signed in a hurry the passports for all the finished cameras (perhaps even for non finished ones). But where did they go? Certainly, they were not sold. To the Red army, perhaps? To be sure, we should know the precise history of these last days...

Any idea about that period of history?
Amitiés. Jacques.
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
3970 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Jun 09 2008 :  8:05:23 PM  Show Profile  Visit Vlad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
One of the major obstacles in find out such things for Westerners is the knowledge of Russian language.. Well fortunately I don't have such impairment since it is my first language.. If someone like Alain can find out who the contact was that JLP talked to on FED factory and if there is a way to get in touch with someone who used to work there, I would be very happy to call them on the phone and interview them... I just need some leads.. maybe soon I will call FED factory itself and try to find out who may be the person who can help me about getting some information who is hopefully still alive..

Vlad
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James McGee
James McGee
Azerbaijan
192 Posts
Posted - Jun 14 2008 :  04:20:16 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hello all,
An interesting Fed-1 on e-bay:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Camera-FED-NKVD-Perfect-condition-Number-174341_W0QQitemZ150229213092QQihZ005QQcategoryZ15234QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262

Accordiing to the engraving and the serial number this should be a Berdsk!
Regards, Jim.
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James McGee
James McGee
Azerbaijan
192 Posts
Posted - Jun 14 2008 :  05:07:41 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
BTW, In my earlier post regarding the three visible screws as opposed to five in the base plate of some FED Berdsk's perhaps I didn't explain as clearly as I might have.
As far as I can gather some Berdsk's have only three visible screws in the baseplate, and other Fed Berdsk's have five visible screws. The three visible screws applies only to the Fed Berdsk, and no other Fed-1, so if only three screws are visible, and other parameters are correct then I believe that the camera is without doubt a Berdsk.
Of course there are also some Fed Berdsk with five screws in the baseplate just as all other Fed-1's.
And just to confuse matters more, we don't even really know for sure if these cameras were ever assembled at Berdsk.
Will the Fed mystery ever end????
Regards, Jim
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Jacques M.
France
2067 Posts
Posted - Jun 14 2008 :  06:53:40 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

Hi Jim,
As for me, I hope it's a never ending story. It is why I collect these cameras!
Amitiés. Jacques.
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James McGee
James McGee
Azerbaijan
192 Posts
Posted - Jun 14 2008 :  07:39:23 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Jacques,
I couldn't agree more!
Regards, Jim
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Zoom
576 Posts
Posted - Jun 15 2008 :  04:32:42 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by James McGee

Accordiing to the engraving and the serial number this should be a Berdsk!


"NKVD"?... Not made in Berdsk.
From February 1941 the FED plant was under heading by NKAP.
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James McGee
James McGee
Azerbaijan
192 Posts
Posted - Jun 15 2008 :  05:13:18 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Zoom,
I'm not quite sure what you mean, but the engraving on the camera that I referred to mentions neither "NKVD, or "NKAP".
I could be wrong, but as far as I am aware the engraving and the serial number of this camera means it is a so called Fed-1e "Berdsk"
If I have misunderstood your post please explain further.
Best wishes, Jim


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/Fed-174xxx.jpg

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Jacques M.
France
2067 Posts
Posted - Jun 15 2008 :  11:12:27 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

Hi Jim,
Zoom was referring to the title of the seller: "Fed NKVD". This # 174341 is not a NKVD, of course.
It is an "e", probably not "Berdsk"!

Amitiés. Jacques.
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James McGee
James McGee
Azerbaijan
192 Posts
Posted - Jun 15 2008 :  12:16:20 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Jacques,
Thanks for the information, and forgive my ignorance of e-bay sellers. In fact I never looked at e-bay before joining this forum, and now I just made my first purchase, a FED lateral viewfinder.
With regard to the Fed-1e #174341, I bow to your supertor knowledge. I had assumed that it was probably a "Berdsk" because of the number and the engraving. Now that I check JLP he says that the Fed-1e "Berdsk" spans serial numbers 173600/174000, and #183000 upwards. So I suppose the serial number of 174341 is a little high.
Best wishes, Jim
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James McGee
James McGee
Azerbaijan
192 Posts
Posted - Jun 15 2008 :  12:31:41 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hello again Jacques,
I have just now checked the WIKI, and Fed-1e #174341 is actually entered there as a "Berdsk". In fact there are quite a lot of other cameras with much higher serial numbers also entered there.
Please let us know your thoughts.
Best wishes, Jim.
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