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 Some forerunners of the m39 Jupiter 8...
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Jacques M.
France
2589 Posts
Posted - Jan 15 2023 :  10:16:56 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hello,

The main ancestor of our Jup 8 is of course the Sonnar 2/5cm. It was produced in bayonet and LTM mount, and different versions were made, as it seems, during and after WW2. I am very interested by these lenses...
Here are some of them:


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/1512023_IMG_0874.JPG

From left to right (and up to down):
- Sonnar #2683810, collapsible, M engraved,
- Sonnar #2709453, bought without mount,
- Sonnar #2709900, collapsible, m engraved,
- Sonnar #2711193, collapsible, M engraved,
- Sonnar #2854538, rigid, M engraved,
- ZK #4903651, collapsible, of course with M,
- Jupiter 8 early, #5005810, with ears.

I will try to write some words about each of them... but for sure I won't exhaust the subject!

Jacques.


Jacques M.
France
2589 Posts
Posted - Jan 15 2023 :  10:37:11 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
First of them, the Sonnar collapsible s/n 2683810.
It belongs to a series of 5000 Sonnars theorically mounted with a bayonet for the Contaxes.
In fact, if I rely on my listing, the first half only (very roughly) was delivered with a Contax mount. And we normally find these lenses on the last wartime Contax II and III (M and O series). As far as I know, these first lenses were not coated.

The second part is more entangled. If we still find Contax mounts, many of them have a m39 mount, adapted from a Fed (or other) mount. We find these lenses on very different cameras: some Zorkis or Feds (a NKAP, a Fed Arsenal!), a TSVVS... It is in that second half that lenses begin to be coated.

All that could suggest a second part of the batch only half finished and achieved at the end or after WW2.

As for my lens, it's a sort of an exception, as it belongs to the first half and already has a regular collapsible LTM Zeiss mount (with the Zeiss RF number on the back of the mount).

Some photos in the following post.

Jacques.



Edited by - Jacques M. on Jan 15 2023 10:47:27 AM
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Jacques M.
France
2589 Posts
Posted - Jan 15 2023 :  10:59:01 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Some photos of this s/n 2683810:

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/1512023_IMG_0908.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/1512023_IMG_0878.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/1512023_IMG_0879.JPG

That Sonnar is not in great condition, OK! But I am a collector... And it is a certainly a genuine one, with "791" on the back of the RF mount.

Comments are welcome!

Amitiés. Jacques.

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Jacques M.
France
2589 Posts
Posted - Jan 16 2023 :  10:27:37 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The three following lenses belong to the same series of 2000 lenses made only for Contax and Nettax. Theorically... By the Thiele, they were initiated the 7/12/42.

My #2709453 belongs to the first part of this series, let us say the 500 first ones, roughly. And there are several other lenses without mount too, like mine. Note that I have put it into a Jup 8 mount, and the infinity is good. I have not checked anything else.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/1612023_IMG_0883.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/1612023_IMG_0886.JPG

Besides these lenses without mount, there are too lenses which were "LTMized" with an extra mount: Jup, Summar, etc. And some very rare bayo for Contax...


Edited by - Jacques M. on Jan 16 2023 10:33:33 AM
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Jacques M.
France
2589 Posts
Posted - Jan 16 2023 :  10:42:21 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

In the 1000 or so following lenses of this series, it seems there are several batches of bayo (Contax) and LTM (m engraved, so for Leicas). So, "official" lenses. All of them are collapsible. My #2709900 has nothing particular, though it does not have the Zeiss LTM number.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/1612023_IMG_0888.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/1612023_IMG_0889.JPG

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Jacques M.
France
2589 Posts
Posted - Jan 16 2023 :  11:31:54 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
To end with that series, we find in the last numbers many LTM collapsible Sonnars engraved with an M, so for Feds. My #2711193 belongs to that category. Note that the rear part of this lens wears 936760, made the 31/07/46 by the Thiele. With such a number, this lens should have been a ZK. No doubt it was achieved during the Russian occupation.
This lens is perfect and I use it as a "daily" on a Fed S. Some photos:


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/1612023_IMG_0888.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/1612023_IMG_0889.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/1612023_IMG_0912.JPG

Certainly, the life of this series was not "a long quiet river". That smells war and money... Suppositions are possible, and some certitudes exist, for example that Zeiss Jena produced lenses for Leica (m) and for Fed (M) at the demand of the Russians. Or that all the collapsibles bodies are German. But what about these non mounted lenses? Or the effective dates of delivery? Or the place where they were mounted/achieved: Jena or KMZ?
Happily, we have the monumental "Zeiss and photography", by Larry Gubas...

Comments are welcome! Thanks!




Edited by - Jacques M. on Jan 17 2023 09:38:57 AM
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Jacques M.
France
2589 Posts
Posted - Jan 17 2023 :  10:34:43 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

The following lens, the Sonnar #2854538 belongs to a series of 5000 lenses officially with Leica and Contax mounts. By the date given by Larry Gubas in his book (31/10/45), they were made during the Russian occupation.
But certainly the whole series was not achieved. By my listing, around 2000 lenses should be missing, the last numbers known being ZK in Contax mount. So, my 2854538 certainly comes from spare parts:
- it has a rigid ZK LTM body (1948/1950)
- it wears the Zeiss beauty ring instead of the ZK one,
- it was mounted with a rear part engraved (2)710547.... and all woks as it should.
By the numbers, it was probably mounted by KMZ (or in a workshop).

Some photos:


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/1712023_IMG_0895.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/1712023_IMG_0896.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/1712023_IMG_0897.JPG

I add that this lens works perfectly and that the scales are in place...

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Jacques M.
France
2589 Posts
Posted - Jan 19 2023 :  11:22:43 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

The 2/5cm Zorki ZK collapsible, now.
The Zeiss serial number cannot be seen: the barrel is stuck inside the body. Probably in the 285xxxx or 293xxxx Zeiss range. Zeiss RF number: 1243.
Not very common, in fact. They are generally found on the 1949 Fed-Zorki.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/1912023_IMG_0902.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/1912023_IMG_0903.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/1912023_IMG_0914.JPG

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Jacques M.
France
2589 Posts
Posted - Jan 19 2023 :  11:33:02 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

The last one for that thread: an early 1950 Jupiter 8, with "ears". Nothing particular. No Zeiss number on the back of the barrel, but with that serial number, it was not expected.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/1912023_IMG_0905.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/1912023_IMG_0907.JPG

Not in a perfect condition, I must say. But that lens is here (and in my collection) as one of the first LTM Jupiter 8...

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Jacques M.
France
2589 Posts
Posted - Jan 19 2023 :  11:46:54 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

What to conclude? Certainly nothing...
Even if we have some "bibles" about these lenses ("the" Thiele and "the" Gubas, for me), we are far from knowing all the details about these wartime and just poswar lenses.
As for the reputation of numerous fakes in these series, I cannot exactly agree with that. For example, the "M" is an original Zeiss mark. And there is no doubt that some non-achieved lenses were mounted lately by KMZ. That said, evident fakes exist too on the net...

Amitiés. Jacques.

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Ulrich W.
uwittehh
Germany
828 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Jan 19 2023 :  12:18:09 PM  Show Profile  Visit uwittehh's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Jacques,

a very interesting thread.

I own only 2 old M39 lenses with Zeiss glasses, both are 1,5/50mm with ears.
One is a ZK with number 000161 which has internal Zeiss number 726735, the other is a Jupiter 3 with number 5102840, which has internal Zeiss number 726979. This is very interesting, they are from the same batch (according to Thiele made in January 1943, with the remarks 'for Contax, some for M39') and only about 260 numbers away from each other, while one is from 1948 and the other from 1951.

For Kiev/Contax mount I have 6 2.0/50mm, 4 are from 1949, 2 are from 1950, all marked with ZK. Three are collapsible, and three are rigid.
But I have not disassembled them to see the internal Zeiss numbers. Would be interesting for comparing, I think.

Ulrich


http://fotos.cconin.de
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xya
France
155 Posts
Posted - Jan 19 2023 :  12:50:48 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Jacques, this is a wonderful thread, very instructive. Thank you so much.

As we are still in january: Bonne Année !

www.a7camera.com www.120folder.com www.instantphoto.eu www.135compact.com www.oddcameras.com
www.subcompactcam.com
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Jacques M.
France
2589 Posts
Posted - Jan 21 2023 :  08:20:38 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

Thanks, Ulrich and Reinhart! Et excellente année également!

The case of the Sonnar 1,5/5cm is a bit different, I think. It was considered as the best 5cm of its generation, and probably due to that, prone to be faked. Actually, we have on the net genuine Sonnars 1,5/cm, originally in Contax mount, re-mounted in the LTM one, with very different (and sometimes strange) bodies.And fakes from Jup 3...
We don't really have that problem with the 2/5cm: all those in collapsible mount are (theorically) genuine.

Just a photo of the # 2710312 on the Kiev 47 #47168. I put the lens after, but it should be good: by the Sasaki, the 2710154 is mounted on the Kiev 47058, and the 2710279 on the Kiev 5908/470033...


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/2112023_IMG_0917.JPG

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Jacques M.
France
2589 Posts
Posted - Jan 21 2023 :  08:32:24 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

A last "early postwar" Sonnar 2/5cm (for me): the s/n 3005761 (from march 1947).
It has a curious "diabolo" body:


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/2112023_IMG_0919.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/2112023_IMG_0921.JPG

A small series exists, with this strange body, in 2/5cm and 1,5cm version. Nobody knows (?) where they were really mounted. It works perfectly...

Amitiés. Jacques.

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Elmar Lang
Italy
32 Posts
Posted - Feb 07 2023 :  12:35:30 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hello,

a highly interesting thread indeed.

Being a fan of the Kiev rangefinder camera (and the Contax too, of course), the Jupiter-8, the ZK and the Sonnar are among of my focuses.

With 39x1 mount, I have a FED-Zorki "1948" camera (shutter up to 1/1000), fitted with a collapsible ZK also dated 1948, S/N "N 001220";

with Contax/Kiev mount, my oldest piece are a 1947 dated, collapsible "ZK" S/N "N 000064", mounted on a 1947 Kiev camera (S/N 47367) and a 1949 dated, collapsible "ZK" "Zorki" S/N "N 4905216", mounted on a Kiev-3, S/N 490033.

All the best,

Enzo (E.L.)

Edited by - Elmar Lang on Feb 07 2023 12:37:03 PM
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Jacques M.
France
2589 Posts
Posted - Feb 09 2023 :  11:12:46 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks, Enzo.
The case of the Kiev 1947 is interesting. We can find on them 2/5cm Sonnars or 1947 ZK as well. It seems that some Sonnars were not transformed into ZK, unless some Kiev 47 were mounted at Jena... Or else!

By chance, would you have the Zeiss serial numbers of your ZK?

Amitiés. Jacques.
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Elmar Lang
Italy
32 Posts
Posted - Feb 10 2023 :  12:13:23 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hello Jacques,

my Kiev 1947 is visible here: http://ussrphoto.com/Wiki/default.asp?WikiCatID=20&ParentID=1&ContentID=1615&Item=Kiev+1947 .

That camera is still in untouched, well-working condition. Please don't laugh, but where could I find the Zeiss serial number on the lens barrel? I know how to inspect the inside of a Contax or Kiev camera body, but I usually don't dare to touch the assembly of a lens...

Many thanks in advance,

Enzo
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Jacques M.
France
2589 Posts
Posted - Feb 12 2023 :  10:45:14 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hello Enzo,

I realize that I have shown LTM forerunners only.
In fact, I have too ZK lenses in Contax mount on my 48 and 49 Kievs...

No problem (generally!) to see the Zeiss number which is at the rear part of the barrel. You just have to unscrew it from the body.
An example with my LTM Sonnar s/n 2711193:


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/1222023_IMG_0983.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/1222023_IMG_0984.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/1222023_IMG_0985.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/1222023_IMG_0986.JPG

Just don't force. If that doesn't come, it can have been glued (it's the case for several of my lenses).
It's the same principle for lenses with Contax mount.

Amitiés. Jacques.


Edited by - Jacques M. on Feb 12 2023 10:47:22 AM
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Elmar Lang
Italy
32 Posts
Posted - Feb 15 2023 :  11:34:14 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thank you Jacques!

As soon as I will tahe my Cameras from the storage, I will try to see whether the ZK ones can be inspected.

So, the lens barrel is just screwed inside the mount; no screws to hold it in place?

All the best,

Enzo
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Ulrich W.
uwittehh
Germany
828 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Feb 18 2023 :  5:42:42 PM  Show Profile  Visit uwittehh's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Jacques,

that is interesting. The numer on the front ring and on the barrel of your lens are totally different. Until now I only know examples where the number on the barrel is the same as on the front ring without the leading "2". Maybe these collapsible lenses were made from spare parts?

Ulrich

http://fotos.cconin.de
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Jacques M.
France
2589 Posts
Posted - Feb 19 2023 :  05:08:52 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

Hello,

To Enzo: the lateral screw you can see on the back of the collapsible Sonnars serves to hold in place the three winglets which lock the lens in open position. But the internal barrel is sometimes sticked to keep the correct regulating... Anyway, never force!

To Ulrich: it's not the first time that I see different numbers. For this special lens, I rather think of an official montage, made in urgency. We are at the end of the series (2709301 to 2711300 by Thiele), another series of collapsible Sonnars is simultaneously mounted, and some parts are mixed. All that in 1945/46, with m or M inscriptions on the lenses... It's how I see things
Of course, this lens can too have been mounted outside. But all the ciphers are correctly aligned, which is rare in that case.

Thanks to both!
Amitiés. Jacques.
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