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 Yura camera this time
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Nicolas
Gelios

USA
55 Posts
Posted - Oct 05 2008 :  07:09:13 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi,

I don't see many of these...

http://cgi.ebay.com/Russian-Leica-Copy-Camera-Commemorating-Space-Program_W0QQitemZ260295318930QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item260295318930&_trkparms=39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A15%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

Any comment about real or fake Yura cameras?


Edited by - Gelios on Oct 05 2008 07:10:31 AM
Yuri Boguslavsky
fedka
USA
233 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Oct 05 2008 :  08:38:11 AM  Show Profile  Visit fedka's Homepage  Reply with Quote
With Yuras this is a tough call. This one is clearly fake, made in the late 1990's. That said, it makes an excellent collectible.

I put a small bid on it, but if anyone from the forum wants it - please contact me off the list and I will not fight. I already have one, also fake, but made differently.

Yura
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BERRY alain
mermoz37
France
814 Posts
Posted - Oct 05 2008 :  09:35:58 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
yes interesting and nice fake ...but what to do whith ?
here is in a former thea box !!!
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/IMG_5028.jpg

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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
1837 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Oct 06 2008 :  10:15:12 AM  Show Profile  Visit Luiz Paracampo's Homepage  Reply with Quote
A clear fake!
Leather finish completely differs from original and all other details. But of course a good peice of conversation, mainly at the 51th anniverdary of the Sputnik spacecraft.
Why not to make a Sputnik commemorative?
LP
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4094 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Oct 06 2008 :  10:21:15 AM  Show Profile  Visit Vlad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
From what I've seen or read, all these are tourist souvenirs...

Vlad
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Steve
Bull Halsey
USA
229 Posts
Posted - Oct 06 2008 :  12:28:05 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
They're all fakes !!
What difference does it make? I guess if I could purchase one I would want one of those Titanium models that Nathan shared with us.

Steve
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BERRY alain
mermoz37
France
814 Posts
Posted - Oct 06 2008 :  12:53:52 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
in my mind, it is very interesting to also collect the forgeries. What is important , always mention: this is a remarkable craftsman's (artist?)work and must be looked at only like this. Its historical interest is to note , according our time, there are purchasers for that and that made live people who invented this work to live about it. Isn't it ?
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Guido Studer
Guido
Switzerland
343 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Oct 06 2008 :  1:05:08 PM  Show Profile  Visit Guido's Homepage  Reply with Quote

Hello Steve and Alain

quote:
Originally posted by Bull Halsey

They're all fakes !!



It's my opinion too, yes.

quote:
Originally posted by Bull Halsey

What difference does it make?



None.

quote:
Originally posted by Bull Halsey

I guess if I could purchase one I would want one of those Titanium models that Nathan shared with us.



Me too ...

But I think it's a historical question if this cameras were made by KMZ or not. And this would be the only thing that makes the difference.

I believe that there are earlier "fakes" and other that were made later, maybe in the last ten years or so. The term "souvenir" is very good I think.

quote:
Originally posted by mermoz37

(...) this is a remarkable craftsman's (artist?)work


Well Alain, "artistic" I wouldn't call this, even if it's a well done work.

Best wishes - Guido

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Steve
Bull Halsey
USA
229 Posts
Posted - Oct 06 2008 :  3:09:57 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I fully agree. Alain. As Vlad has seen, I've been collecting "Leica" fakes for quite awhile and exactly for the very reasons you state. It's not the ability to fool anyone into thinking it's an original, but the art it takes to strip and re-process into the fake.

It still amazes me that these cameras are as inexpensive as they are for all the work that goes into them.

Steve
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Jacques M.
France
2258 Posts
Posted - Oct 06 2008 :  4:01:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

I have wanted to buy one for several years, but I always found something else to get...
True or not, I share Steve's opinion: the necessary work to make such fakes is certainly not well enough paid. Me too, I have cameras which were sold to me as Leica fakes. And two of them are true Leicas!

Amitiés. Jacques.
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1022 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Oct 06 2008 :  4:39:35 PM  Show Profile  Visit nightphoto's Homepage  Reply with Quote

In the case of the Yura, my opinion would be that if some Zorki cameras were re-engraved as commemorative items of Yri Gagarin's flight, for sale at City of the Stars, during the 1960s or 1970s (as the example on page 129 of Princelle may possibly be), then these cameras could be considered as not to be fakes and instead be considered as authentic commemorative cameras, even if they were not re-engraved by the Zorki factory (although this is unknown as well).

However, if these early Yura cameras do exist as a camera that was not meant to fool anyone, how can we tell the difference between them and the later cameras that were made just to sell to collectors and were never at City of the Stars.

I have noticed that the Yura camera pictured in Princelle (p.129) seems to have a reflective surface rather than a matte chrome surface as most Yuras we see have. I have a feeling that the 'Yura Story' may have the ring of truth to it and that some cameras with this commemorative engraving were sold at City of the Stars ... and these would be real souvenirs from that place. Also, I think that the original Yuras will be differentiated from the more modern, non-authentic, examples by having a mirror finish rather than matte chrome.

If you read the Princelle paragraph on the Yura, the story of the camera shown, and bought in 1975 at City of the Stars, seems like it could be true. Or at least it should not be dismissed unless someone knows this particular story not to be true. But ... just my long-held opinion;-)

Regards, Bill

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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4094 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Oct 06 2008 :  4:54:15 PM  Show Profile  Visit Vlad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I have the one with shiny reflective chrome, just like Okynek's here:

http://www.ussrphoto.com/Wiki/default.asp?ImageID=1481&ParentID=1&WikiCatID=76&ContentID=430

I will take a look tonight when i'm home to see the serial numbers, etc... Will let you know.

Vlad.
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4094 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Oct 06 2008 :  7:59:37 PM  Show Profile  Visit Vlad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Yea, mine is #102, shiny chrome:


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/DSC_3905.JPG

Bill, why do you think that these particular ones are "original" batch? Just based on JLP's picture?

Vlad
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1022 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Oct 06 2008 :  8:31:54 PM  Show Profile  Visit nightphoto's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hi Vlad,

Actually I didn't mean (and didn't say) that all of the ones with shiny chrome are the originals ... just that I believe that the originals probably have shiny chrome finishes. I also think that some were made later that had shiny chrome. I think yours may be a later Yura because the star looks a bit different than the example in Princelle (the star looks filled in with enamel or paint in a sort of thick way).

Yes, I am basing the possibility that there are real Yura cameras only on Princelle's 2nd Edition, page 129, as the story seems to be authentic ... but I don't have any other special knowledge about the Yura. Also any ideas I have presented as to the finish are just based on what I can see in the photo on that page.

Of course Princelle can be wrong, or his source can be inaccurate, but I thought that the story it is worth considering (since Princelle considered it accurate enough to include in his book) rather than to just dismiss all Yura cameras as fakes. Also I thought it a useful subject to consider ... is a fake anything not produced by a factory, or can cameras that have been altered for reasons other than the modern collector's market be considered as authentic modifications. Maybe too simple just to say all Yuras are fake.



Regards, Bill

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Yuri Boguslavsky
fedka
USA
233 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Oct 06 2008 :  11:10:02 PM  Show Profile  Visit fedka's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I do not believe the first Yuras were made by KMZ. In 1961 Zorki was out of production for some 5 years, and there were many newer models available.
I believe it was a souvenir made by someone or some workshop, either officially (as an order from the government), or privately, to sell as a souvenir to a foreigner.

In this sense, all later Yuras has as much credibility and value as the earlier ones. They are all souvenirs, and this does not diminish their value.

I personally dislike any modifications (Leica, Luftwaffe, Stalinets, etc), but Yura is very dear to me, and was very happy to buy one in 2001 on eBay.

I later found the source of these Yuras, and ordered 12 of them directly from a dealer in Moscow. 6 of them were 'white' chrome and 6 were 'champagne' chrome, like the one on eBay.

I sold them in the Fedka.com store, and below is the description (it is from 2004, when the last one was sold).

----------------

43 years ago, on April 12, 1961 at 9:07 in the morning (Moscow time), the Soviet spacecraft Vostok 1 was launched from Baikonur cosmodrom in Kazakhstan. Aboard was a 27-year-old Soviet Air Force Major, Yuri Gagarin - the first man in space, a peasant's son, and arguably the most loved Russian in Soviet history. The flight lasted 108 minutes.

The USSR turned this event into a huge propaganda campaign. Once a member of a top-secret program, Yuri Gagarin became an instant celebrity. He visited 28 countries, bringing his message around the world: the Earth is beautiful, let's keep it peaceful and safe.

Yura (a nickname for Yuri) was the most popular boy's name in the USSR in 1961.

For those interested in Yuri Gagarin's biography and the details of his flight around Earth, there is a wealth of information on the web. These are just a few links:

* http://www.vibrationdata.com/space/Yuri.htm
* http://www.kosmonaut.se/gagarin/index.html
* http://w ww3.northstar.k12.ak.us/schools/ryn/spacerace/people/gagarin.html
* http://members.aol.com/astromem/aircraft/gagarin/index.html

As often happened with Russian heroes, Yuri Gagarin died young. He was only 34 when the MIG-15 fighter jet he was piloting crashed during a routine training flight. Yuri Gagarin and his instructor, Vladimir Seryogin, were killed on March 27, 1968. The cause of the crash was never clearly known. The MIG-15 hit the ground at full throttle.

Now we get to the Yura camera. The true origin of this Zorki version is not clearly known. One version (cautiously supported by Jean Loup Princelle) is that a small series of commemorative Zorki-Yura rangefinders was made by the KMZ plant in 1961. I find this unlikely, since the KMZ plant discontinued the Zorki type 1 in 1956, 5 years before Gagarin's historic flight.

A large plant like KMZ would have used current production models for the commemorative version, the way it did in 1957 (Zorki-S, Moscow Youth Festival) and in 1967 (Zorki-4 and Zenit-3M, 50 Years or Soviet Power). I believe that the Zorki-Yura was first produced by a workshop outside of KMZ. It is possible this camera was ordered by some officials to be used as a gift for some VIPs participating in one of the countless propaganda events devoted to Yuri Gagarin.

There is the question of genuine Yuras and fake Yuras. It has yet to be p roved that the Yuras made in the 1960's were genuine, i.e. made by the Zorki manufacturer, the KMZ plant near Moscow. I believe that the cameras made in the 60's and in the 90's should be treated similarly - they are re-finished Zorkis (and sometimes FEDs). The top plate features a stylized picture of the earth with the Yura name in Cyrillic. Well, the KMZ logo is there too, right next to the serial number. Of course, the historic date, 12.04.61, is also engraved on the top plate.

Genuine or fake, the Zorki-Yura is an uncommon Russian Leica-type camera and its substantial value as a collectible will certainly endure.
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Jacques M.
France
2258 Posts
Posted - Oct 07 2008 :  03:34:27 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

Hello,
I agree too to consider that if there are genuine Yuras, they must look like the one described by JLP with bright surfaces. But it has too a 1/20th shutter, so it is a "b", "c", or "d". Not the last "e" which has the new speeds beginning by 1/25th.
It would be strange for a factory not to use the last serie for a special camera, even if the fist spatial flight was made in 1961 (the "e" ends in 1956). It's why I rather think it was made by a special workshop outside of KMZ, as says Fedka.

In that case, we could speak of "original" yuras (the one of JLP) even if they are not really true, i.e. made by the factory!

Amitiés. Jacques.
PS: the one shown by Gelios is an "e".
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