|T O P I C R E V I E W
||Posted - Jul 28 2010 : 09:11:30 AM
First, sorry for my long silence: my computer broke down two months ago and as I am stupid, I had not made copies. So I have lost all my datas...
I received lately two interesting Contaxes. Of course,I would not speak of them if they were not in close relationship with Kievs.
On the right: a Contax II of the last batch, n° O.64166 with a 1,5/5cm Sonnar T coated. Made before Dresden was bombed in february 1945. The remaining camera bodies and spare parts were sent to Kiev and they were used as production training. The first "Kiev 1947" were made with these parts, at least those with script re-engraved front plate (at the reverse of the front plate, the stroke of the "t" is lower than on the Contax Jena).
On the left, an early 1947 Contax Jena n° 11826, certainly with the original lens. History says that the Soviet forces asked for three production lines, that the Contax Jena and some Kiev 1947 (those with the "block" inscription??)were produced and that these lines were shipped to Kiev with some German engineers. No production in Ukraine before 1948, as it seems.
Unhappily, it's almost impossible to get a Kiev 1947. If not, I would have made close comparisons with these two ones...
|50 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First)
||Posted - Sep 03 2021 : 08:32:44 AM
I think that your listing would be most invaluable to those involved in the study and research about the evolution from the Contax to the Kiev lines.
Congratulations for your research effort,
||Posted - Sep 01 2021 : 10:43:00 AM
Thanks, Enzo. I will add it in my listing.
For those who would be interested by that listing (around 240 Jena Contaxes), just pm. Unless Vlad thinks it could be interesting in our wiki?
||Posted - Aug 31 2021 : 04:57:18 AM
just to add a little further detail to this interesting thread, I would like to add the data of my "Jena" Contax:
S.N.: 27893, also present on the inner surface of the "heavy" type, sheet-brass back; "square" accessory shoe.
Lens: Carl Zeiss Jena Sonnar 1:2 5cm. "red T" s.n. 3051152.
All the best,
||Posted - Jul 08 2021 : 08:40:21 AM
Another Jena Contax here (# 18055), already with the heavy back.
The lens is an "exotic" Sonnar, already shown in another topic.
||Posted - Mar 04 2020 : 08:19:12 AM
To compare with a genuine ivory one:
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/432020_Jena Contax 27972 1.jpg
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/432020_Jena Contax 27972 3.jpg
||Posted - Mar 04 2020 : 08:14:47 AM
Just for the pleasure, two photos of a fake Jena Contax "ivory", recently sold on the net:
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/432020_Jena Contax 27976 fake 4.jpg
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/432020_Jena Contax 27976 fake 2.jpg
||Posted - Jul 10 2018 : 03:04:46 AM
Just seen Michels post from Mar 04 2011 - I have Kiev 481100 in my collection, just 4 behind his camera. Mine also has 1100 engraved into the alloy shutter assembly.
||Posted - Jul 09 2018 : 09:08:26 AM
And the curious winding button.
||Posted - Jul 09 2018 : 09:06:20 AM
An other Jena-Contax here.
The s/n 11829, next to my 11826 already seen above in the thread.
Externally, there is only one difference. The winding button has a different shape (screw and "bowl"). Nothing else before dismounting.
The general look first:
||Posted - May 13 2013 : 04:30:47 AM
missed 1 image
||Posted - May 12 2013 : 10:15:26 PM
I'm new to this forum. I just received my Kiev 2. I found your '52 Kiev 2 very interesting, as it is very different from mine. Perhaps yours considered the rare one
||Posted - Feb 13 2012 : 10:28:59 AM
But I think that your body is most interesting with the flat top on "3" (Dresden side), the black ring under the selftimer (Jena specification)... All a world in a camera!
||Posted - Feb 13 2012 : 10:23:19 AM
Always on this 1948 Kiev, a ZK lens. I thought till now that 1948 ones were collapsible? The numbering seems correct.
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1322012_Kiev 48 3.jpg
Are there other "solid" 1948 ZK that you would know?
||Posted - Feb 13 2012 : 10:22:46 AM
Absolutely splendid camera !
Mine is not so beautiful, and the lens is… a Jupiter #54xxx
Sincerly,et à bientôt,
||Posted - Feb 13 2012 : 09:35:21 AM
I received some weeks ago a 1948 Kiev. Here is a photo:
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1322012_Kiev 48 1.jpg
In fact, mine is most on the Jena/Kiev side: no "3" with a flat top, for example. Of course, there are Dresden arrows with a central extension. And four rows on the rewind button:
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1322012_Kiev 48 2.jpg
These four rows are present on all the prewar Contax II, early Kievs up to some 1949 ones, and on early Jena Contaxes (my # 30xxx doesn't have). Three rows seems the rule after.
||Posted - Oct 07 2011 : 08:14:39 AM
There are probably two possibilities:
- on the three production lines, two only are shipped to Kiev. The remaining one is used to make Jena Contaxes when necessary. That was the original promise of the USSR authorities. But it seems that this promise was not hold and all was sent to Kiev.
Hence my second supposition.
- In 1946-47, the three production lines are made and immediately tested. Some rare early Jena Contaxes and Kiev Contaxes (those with the two numberings) are mounted. Besides, some 2000 parts are made and set apart. They will serve to mount the other series, from 1948.
About that, we can suppose that most of these Jena Contaxes were offered as gifts, rather than sold: the greatest number of these cameras seem unused, contrarily to the contemporaneous Kievs.
Zeiss Opton (West Germany) obtained the legal rights on "Contax" only in 1954. But the Kievs could continue, of course.
Concerning these curious late Jena Kiev, they are all in the last range of 100 cameras, serial number 30501-30600. Only 6 are actually known. I have absolutely no detail about them. Always gifts for Russians of rank, perhaps?
||Posted - Oct 06 2011 : 2:25:44 PM
that's apoint that I am wondering about too. Unfortunately the documents end in late 1947. They say that the Saalfeld production line was shipped to Kiev. The document says also that in the late Jena Contaxes there can be found front masks that were made of reengraved Kiev plates. So maybe the late Jena Contaxes were made in Kiev for special purposes? As I know the east germans have no permission to make ragnefinders under the name Contax in that time when e.g. your late Jena Contax was built.
||Posted - Oct 06 2011 : 10:39:03 AM
There is something I don't really understand in the chronology about the Jena Contax.
From your articles (the Conkies), I understand that:
1- the production lines are first made and tested,
2- the first 1947 Jena Contax and Kiev Contax are made,
3- the three production lines are dismounted and sent to Kiev.
OK. But with what were the following Jena Contaxes made? From spare parts, originally made in 1946-47 and used when necessary to mount the other series?
What was the exact date of the sending to Kiev?
Sorry: my German is non-existent...
||Posted - Oct 02 2011 : 04:45:10 AM
no, you are not :-) With the knowledge of the history the Kiev/Contax is the most interesting camera to collect. And the Jena Contax seems to be the rarest german rangefinder build by Zeiss.
||Posted - Oct 02 2011 : 03:23:29 AM
Thanks a lot for your pictures !
Very interested by the details: I don't dare to open my Jena Contaxes...
So, I am no more the only one to be crazy with these cameras...
||Posted - Oct 02 2011 : 02:42:09 AM
Now that I own a Jena Contax too I can confirm to all points that Jacques listed. It's a really interesting camera. Here are some pictures:
The feather on the selftimer release and the black painted ring under the selftimer lever:
The shoe with the number and the logo. An interesting detail on the film reminder disk, the digits are engraved a bit more to the inner part of it. And no flat "3":
This seems to be really interesting, the shutter has no number engraved. On my Kiev II from 1949 there is a hand engraved number on it. Maybe the shutters are from the same factory and the ones for the Kievs were engraved by hand to distinguish them from the ones for the Jena Contax?
That's funny, there are parts made of cardboard to shield the rangefinder prism from light (the brown/black part on left-top of the picture). It just felt out and I wondered first where I have to reinstall it...:
And the result after reassembling:
Now it's a real beauty, when it arrives here the chrome on the top and front mask was a bit yellow tinted, then I found out that was nicotine (it stinks during removing it...)! So it seems that the camera was sitting the most time on a shelf in the household of a heavy smoker. That was the main reason why I disassembled the chrome parts carefully.
By the way, the lens is a rigid Sonnar in an aluminium housing. Like the Zorki lens on my Kiev II from 1949.
||Posted - Jul 20 2011 : 6:36:32 PM
hmm, this is excellent research, Jacques! A great timeline for the evolution of the camera! Thank you!
regarding the shoe, it's possible they didn't have any for production on Arsenal so they only used them for prototypes..
||Posted - Jul 20 2011 : 06:50:44 AM
Here is how I figure all that.
1- Contax and Kiev prototypes are made in Jena. They have two serial numbers: the Zeiss and Kiev ones, and the Carl Zeiss Jena logo. All that on the shoe. On the front, the Contax or the Kiev inscription. Of course, absolutely no difference between these Kievs and Contaxes as they were all made together from machine tools delivered from the German to the Russians.
2- At the same time, Dresden parts are sent to Kiev. The production first begins with these only parts. And little by little, some Jena parts are sent to Kiev. It explains why the 1947 Kievs are almost "pure" Dresden cameras.
3- The Jena machine tools arrive at Kiev. The pieces are mixed Jena/Dresden (1948).
4- Then, little by little, original Dresden parts are missing: cameras look like Jena's, except for some detail.
5- Machine tools are modified to increase the production. Kievs are simplified (from c. 1951).
So, you are right for the most important part, Vlad.
But I wonder why one finds the square accessory shoe (Jena part) only on the prototypes and on all the Jena Contaxes, but on no Kiev, whatever its date be... Another mystery...
||Posted - Jul 19 2011 : 9:56:56 PM
Jacques, as I've been following this thread, and my understanding is that it seems like most Kievs do come from Jena Contaxes, right? The Dresden Contax details seem to different from the Kievs that I've seen. Do you have an example of a Kiev with Dresden parts? Or at least one that you suspect is Dresden parts?
||Posted - Jun 12 2011 : 10:45:18 AM
Here are the external differences between prewar or wartime Contaxes and the Jena Contaxes.
If it can help some colleagues to identify better their 1947-49 Kiev, specially about their origins: does mine come from Dresden parts or from Jena?...
On the cover of Jena Contaxes:
1- View counter: "3" with round top, flat on prewar or wartime Contaxes. Idem for the distance scale (front part).
2- Rewind knob: arrow without central extension.
3- Rewind knob: central screw: 6mm (5mm on other ones)
4- Accessory shoe: square shape.
5- Accessory shoe: logo "Carl Zeiss Jena".
6- Rangefinder: grey/grey rather than green/yellow.
On the front:
7- Selftimer: black painted rim under selftimer.
8- Contax engraving different. Clearly visible: distances between C/o and n/x are more important.
9- No logo.
10- Accessory shoe: number of circles more important.
11- Accessory shoe: tripod with moulded lines on the two parts,
12- Release button: with concentric circles.
It is interesting to add that Jena Contaxes may have slightly different front engravings, concerning the exact shape of the O, for example (less or more flat). And the rear/back part is heavier on some rare Jena Contaxes (c.175g instead c.115g). Last: a flash sync on the cover (last batch only).
Very probably, there are other differences I missed! Please, don't hesitate to add your remarks.
For the differences between early Kievs, don't miss the very interesting article on Luiz's site ! (Written by Claudio Asquini).
||Posted - Mar 09 2011 : 11:34:46 AM
Here is the leather bag of the Kiev serial # 47386 (DVD picture).
Not very far from my own ones, I think.
||Posted - Mar 09 2011 : 10:16:49 AM
Ah! I feel better!
Thanks to you, Michel and Vlad!
Your pictures are very interesting. Vlad, your 1952 Kiev seems to be a "simplified" version, compared to the 1948 (Michel's), 1949 (yours) and 1950 (mine) ones.
As for your 1948 one, Michel, it is a "pure" Dresden one, except for the black rim under the selftimer which is a Jena detail. I had not noticed the difference about the "3": I will use it later (I am preparing the list of differences between Dresden and Jena Contaxes)
Alexei Nikitin (thanks to him!) sends me a mail in which he explains a part of the story. For him, the Dresden production lines were not completely destroyed and could have been repaired. And as the railway gauge was not the same in USSR (larger than in Europe), the trains had to stop a long time before being discharged and the contents sent to Ukraine... It would explain why the Jena material arrived more or less at the same time in Kiev. And why Dresden and Jena parts are mixed on early Kievs.
Thanks once more for the pictures which show perfectly the evolution of the camera...
||Posted - Mar 06 2011 : 4:55:34 PM
As promised here is my comparison of Kiev 49 vs 52
The top cover of the '49 Kiev has more rounded stamped edges than '52, that one is a lot more defined
You can see edge difference more on this image, '49 is on the right, '52 on the left
Rewind knobs: '49 on the right, 52 on the left. Arrows are different and the '49 has 4 rows of diamonds on the side of the knob, vs 3 rows on '52. Also the inner knob is of more diameter on '52
'49 on top, '52 on the bottom: The bottoms of these cameras show the most difference. While '49 is very fine machined, has more concentric circles around the locks and the tripod socket mount, the '52 seems a lot more simplified in that regard. You can tell that '49 is still German parts here while '52 is already streamlined Soviet design.
More detail on the quality of machining around the locks, '49 is on the right
More detail on the tripod socket. '49 is on the right, '52 on the left
Frame counter dial gears are also different, with '49 having a more coarse gear teeth. '49 is on the right.
||Posted - Mar 04 2011 : 6:33:03 PM
Jacques, I don't know if it helps, I've never seen such leather cases on Kievs..
I will try to take some comparison pictures of my 2 Kievs this weekend.
||Posted - Mar 04 2011 : 12:06:13 PM
I send you four photos of my 48 1104 KIEV.
Here, you can see the shape of the shoe :
Four rows of diamonds, here :
See the groove on the distance wheel and notice the shape of the cipher "3" on the counter :
And here, see the foot and the rewind knob :
I don't know if this can help, as I have no Jena Contax and Alain is no more here to give details or advice.
||Posted - Mar 01 2011 : 2:03:36 PM
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/132011_Jena Contax bags 003.JPG
That time, the 1948 is the lower. The stiffener stripes exist only on this one. The grain of the leather is more rough.
The two qualities of leather seem to exist on the 1947 Kiev. But it must be confirmed. See for example this 1947 Kiev case:
The only difference seems to be the polygonal nose rather than round on Jena Contaxes. I don't know if other early Kievs (1948, 1949) have such cases...
||Posted - Mar 01 2011 : 12:20:01 PM
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/132011_Jena Contax bags 002.JPG
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/132011_Jena Contax bags 001.JPG
The leather bags of my two Jena Contaxes.
The first one (=upper) is the 1948 one, the lower is the 1951-56 one.
The general shape, the sewing and the nose are the same.
Prewar or wartime Contaxes don't have that sort of bag. But they can be seen for early Kievs with noses a bit different.
Some more detailed pictures to come.
||Posted - Feb 27 2011 : 09:40:03 AM
Thanks for your friendly answer, Vlad.
For the moment, I don't know if somebody is able to answer your question: it would be necessary to list the known 1947-50 Kiev, to examine them closely, and to compare with different batches of Jena Contaxes!
It seems that there is a great variability for the early Kievs. Perhaps because Dresden, Jena and home made (=Arsenal) parts were mixed. On the other hand, I don't understand why the Jena Contaxes seem to be "pure": my 1951-56 one, at this date, should be really the twin brother of a Kiev.
Your guessing of 1952 is probably not bad. Up to 1951 and possibly 1952, Kievs III could have Jupiter with Sonnar lenses, and DIN meters (rather than GOST). So why not 1952? Too, it would be interesting to know if the machine tools shipped from Germany in 1947 were always working five years later... Probably Arsenal had made other ones (or modified the German ones) with some improving details, for example to produce more...
Some last pictures in a while about the leather bags of my two Jena Contaxes.
||Posted - Feb 25 2011 : 6:35:06 PM
Jacques, it's very fascinating and detailed research, I've been following it closely, I bow to your attention to detail, thank you very much for posting this!
In fact it does seem that both cameras are very closely related if not exactly the same considering mostly German parts were used in the early Kiev production. Apart from screws they look identical .
I wonder at which point they started to deviate. I will compare these pictures to my 1952 Kiev and I will also compare my '52 to the '49 that I have. My guess is they started running out of German part sometime close to 1952 maybe? What do you think?
||Posted - Feb 25 2011 : 04:53:45 AM
I had forgotten something interesting (for me!).
On my two Jena Contaxes, the rangefinder/viewfinder is grey on grey. To compare with orange-pink on green for all my other Contax and Kiev cameras.
It seems a typical feature of Jena Contaxes: it is even used to recognize the forgeries.
So, it could be useful to know the colour on very early Kievs...
||Posted - Feb 12 2011 : 11:58:43 AM
So, it seems there were no real borders for late Jena Contaxes and Kievs of the same years. The two factories were both behind the Iron Curtain: so all that is probably a question of evolution, perhaps even for the two cameras together, more or less at the same time.
Anyway, the last part of this last batch contains several Jena Contaxes with the Kiev logo on the front. Perhaps my # 30536 Jena Contax has "Kiev" on the back of the front?
Eager to have your comments. I wish you have some interesting Kievs to compare with these ones...
||Posted - Feb 12 2011 : 10:53:14 AM
On this picture (Kiev always on the right), the release button is the same. More circles on the square part of the shoe for the Jena Contax, which seems to be a distinctive feature. The triangular part too is slightly different: more space between the lines and the rim. And if the back is much more heavier on this Jena Contax (175g against 113g for the Kiev), one cannot see it.
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1222011_Jena Contax-Kiev 006.JPG
Last picture. From left to right: 1948 Jena Contax, 1951/56 Jena Contax, 1950 Kiev.
One can see that the rewind button is not the same everywhere: four rows of diamonds on the 1948, only three on the two others. It's interesting to notice that all wartime and prewar Contax II have four rows.
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1222011_12 02 001.JPG
||Posted - Feb 12 2011 : 10:08:00 AM
At the beginning of this topic, I had put some pictures comparing the Jena Contax 1948 and a wartime Contax II made in Dresden.
Now, a comparison between the 1951-56 Jena Contax and the Kiev # 504664. The Kiev is always on the right.
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1222011_Jena Contax-Kiev 001.JPG
No real difference on this first picture, except for the distance wheel: no groove on the Kiev. But my earlier Kiev # 503737 has one...
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1222011_Jena Contax-Kiev 002.JPG
A distinctive detail on Jena Contaxes: all have a square shaped shoe. Some early Kievs have it too, probably coming from the same Jena parts. No square shoe on wartime or prewar Dresden Contaxes. The flash synch is a rare feature on Jena Contaxes. DVD says that a 1954 Kiev II preserie had it too. Where was it? On the top or under the finder?
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1222011_Jena Contax-Kiev 004.JPG
Once more, no difference.
||Posted - Feb 11 2011 : 08:40:00 AM
First, some pict. of the Jena Contax alone. The flash sync is a distinctive detail of this batch.
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1122011_Jena contax 1951 001.JPG
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1122011_Jena contax 1951 003.JPG
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1122011_Jena contax 1951 004.JPG
The distance wheel (pict. 3) always have a groove. This one is less deep than on my 1948 Jena Contax.
||Posted - Feb 11 2011 : 07:38:30 AM
Received today my second Jena Contax. From the last batch, it's a very rare camera: only 100 were made.
Nobody exactly knows when this batch was made: one speaks of somewhere between 1951 and 1956.
Nor why: at that date, the use of the name "Contax" was forbidden behind the iron curtain. And the Kievs II and III were in production since a long time...
And about the question "where", I even wonder if they were not made in Ukraine... After all, some of these late Jena Contax have a front plate engraved with the name Kiev!!
So it's most interesting to compare this scarce camera with Kievs II of the same years.
I will post pictures as soon as possible. For the moment, I can say there are only some light differences with my 1948 one, except for the lens (a rare postwar CZJ 1,5/5cm) and the back part. It weighs 175g, compared to my 1948's one: 119g. These cameras with heavy back parts are still rarer than with light ones...
||Posted - Sep 08 2010 : 07:55:14 AM
Probably the best book... I don't have it.
Don't hesitate to correct my hypothesis if they are wrong!
||Posted - Sep 08 2010 : 02:24:13 AM
I'm studying a wonderful Minoru Sasaki book about early Kievs right now, so thanks a lot for your great review!
||Posted - Aug 29 2010 : 2:11:06 PM
You are right about Kiev/Contax addiction, seeing too that the two last Fed 1 I don't have cannot be reached...
The number of the T Sonnar is 2789632 (1,5/5cm)
But I found too a later T coated 2/5cm sonnar serial # 2935976. How can it be a Sonnar, not a ZK with such a serial number? The seller told me it was mounted on a camera, but unhappily he doesn't remember which one.
And what is the exact history of these Sonnar/ZK lenses in the 1945/1947 years?
Surely you can help?
||Posted - Aug 28 2010 : 08:11:14 AM
I told you contax could be addictive... too
Your O series is very nice (what is the number of the T sonnar ?)
||Posted - Aug 06 2010 : 2:53:55 PM
My 1949 Kiev II also has the grooved distance wheel, look here:
||Posted - Aug 06 2010 : 2:11:39 PM
I had noticed that your 1948 Kiev has this groove on the distance wheel. It has also a black rim under the selftimer: it's the only detail coming from the Jena Contaxes.
About your translation, it is absolutely perfect!
||Posted - Aug 06 2010 : 09:53:02 AM
My K48 has the groove on the distance wheel.
(BTW when you say "it is a real mess" do you mean "c'est le bordel"??)
||Posted - Aug 06 2010 : 08:23:15 AM
Thanks for your confirmation, Ulrich. The rough chrome can be interesting to distinguish 1947 Kievs made from Dresden parts.
Very interested by what you say about your 1948 Kiev, Michel. So, it would be a "pure" Dresden one, except for that ring... In 1948, parts coming from anywhere were probably mixed in boxes or so, and were kept in no order.
If I understand well:
- we have 1947 Kiev, with script inscription, only made with Dresden parts. Alexei Nikitin's one (in the wiki) seems to be one of them.
- we have 1947 Kievs, with block inscription, made in Jena besides the Contax Jena on one of the three production lines. They have all the features of the Contax Jena.
- we have the same ones after the three production lines were sent to Ukraine,
- the last ones, perhaps as soon as 1947 made with what was available.
Another special detail is intersting: it concerns the distance wheel. The groove is the rule for all the Contaxes II, including the Jena.
But it's not always present on Kievs 1947: Alexei's one has not. And even on later Kievs, it's a real mess.
Here are my two 1950 Kievs on this picture: the # 503737 on the left (with groove) and the # 506446 without.
One can guess that there was a lack of these distance wheel as early as 1947 and that the factory made a special machine tool before receiving the production lines. It would explain these wheels without groove which only belong to Kievs.
Well, that's all I know for the moment.
For those who are interested, two fascinating articles written by specialists:
- Kiev Rangefinders, by Peter Hennig
- After Dresden: the migration of the Contax to Jena and Kiev (Larry Gubas)
||Posted - Aug 05 2010 : 2:12:48 PM
the chrome was much rougher on my O numbered Contax too. And the engraving of the serial number looked clumsy.
My lens had serial number 2683369, so it matches to yours.
||Posted - Aug 05 2010 : 12:39:52 PM
I know someone who has 1947 Kiev, I can ask him to send me pictures or maybe he can post them himself if he's reading this .
Thanks for these Jacques, this makes a great reference material!