|T O P I C R E V I E W
||Posted - Jul 11 2018 : 11:24:39 AM
I have received yesterday a strange Fed S, s/n 25726. Its features are from the NKVD 1d type, but the number comes from the 1b series. It puts once more a question which has not been solved: why these serial numbers? I own several of these strange NKVD-s (I am not alone!) and perhaps we could discuss together about mine and yours...
First some photos of this Fed S s/n 25726: the cover and the front.
Nothing extraordinary, except the s/n. The vulcanite is typical of the early 1d-s (I would say up to c.110000).
|50 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First)
||Posted - Nov 26 2023 : 03:41:33 AM
About the pin of the lock.
By my data, the 3mm pin was used up to the # 81543 (3mm pin) / 83515 (5mm pin) in the 1c range. 5mm pin after up to the end of the Fed 1.
The # 67588 (and 67610) has a 5mm pin (photo above) because it is in fact a 1d. My other 66/67xxx 1c-s have 3mm pins.
||Posted - Nov 26 2023 : 03:24:12 AM
Many thanks for your answer!
I completely agree with you: the serial number of a lens is originally close to the number of the body. For example, the lens # 111956 was mounted on the body # 111169, with 14 XI 1939 as a date of passport (my data).
That means that when a lens is original, it can be used to date a body.
If the # 67588 and 67610 were 1b-s, the lenses would be in the 67/70000 range. But their lenses are in the 113xxx range, and both very close. So, very probably, they are original. If we had to date them, we could say end nov. 1939/beginning dec.1939 (cf the passport of the 111956, above). So, the two "odd" cameras should have been mounted and equipped with their lenses at that same period.
All that is coherent with the scratched dates inside the odd cameras: 1/XII and 2/XII which are the dates of checking the shutters.
Of course, that is not an absolute proof. What do you think? It would be fine to find other 1d-s in the 67xxx range!
||Posted - Nov 25 2023 : 4:40:36 PM
I just love the last picture with the 5 FEDs :-)
I took a look in my serial numbers and have seen that I don't have a FED with 66xxx or 67xxx.
So between the 66xxx and the 67xxx the bottom lock gets bigger.
To the lens serial numbers: I always thought that the camera and lens serial numbers are equal within a range. But now your 66 and 67 have 113 xxx lenses. That's a bit strange to me. My FED with 51xxx has a lens with 57xxx and the one with 71xxx has a lens with 72xxx. A camera with 112xxx has a lens with 113xxx.
So what do you think why yours have a 113xxx serial number?
||Posted - Nov 25 2023 : 05:41:13 AM
And a photo of the 5 NKVD in the 66/67xxx range:
All questions and comments are welcome!
||Posted - Nov 25 2023 : 05:37:39 AM
A comparison beween the # 66674 (regular 1c) and the # 67588:
The # 67588 is above:
The 67588 is on the right
||Posted - Nov 25 2023 : 05:32:22 AM
The # 67588 and 67610 side by side:
The serial numbers of the two lenses:
||Posted - Nov 24 2023 : 10:23:59 AM
So, the s/n 67588 is here.
In all features, it is the same as the s/n 67610: same CCCP engraving, same 5mm pin lock for the base plate, etc. More important, same steel magnetic shutter case and press film (brass for the 1c-s and 1d- up to 105/110000).
As for the internal date of checking, things are clear too. 1/XII for the 67588 and 2/XII for the 67610. These two cameras were made at the same time, and their serial number cannot be an error.
Just the same about the lenses. Lenses are often mixed and cannot be a proof in themselves. But here, we are lucky. The Industar 10 # 113915/83/0 is on the body # 67588 and the 113869/20/0 was on the 67610. That suggests that the lenses are original and can be used as a base to determine the real range of the bodies.
We usually find lenses of this range on 1d-s around # 110000/115000. For example, the 1d # 111169 has the lens 111956, by my data. And this camera has a passport dated 14 XI 1939. To compare with the dates of checking of the two odd cameras (1/XII and 2/XII)...
So I have no real doubt: these two cameras were mounted in november/december 1939. Probably a small series was made: it would be interesting to examine more deeply that question. But I can tell that the 66674, 67723, 67724 are ordinary Fed 1c: they belong to my collection.
Certainly, a series of serial numbers was reserved in july 1938, date of making of the regular 1c in the 67000 range. But why and for whom?...
Photos to come.
||Posted - Nov 19 2023 : 09:16:33 AM
Perhaps something new about this thread. A CCCP 1d s/n 67588 should soon be here. Of course, I will compare it closely to the other CCCP 1d s/n 67610, a camera which we already spoke of here.
I am very surprised to see two odd numbered Feds with so close serial numbers. That could suggest a small series for administration or else, which was Bill's supposition...
||Posted - May 27 2023 : 03:29:36 AM
On the early Fed 1a, the "locking bar" was screwed, like on the Leicas, then it was riveted. I have just checked my Fed 1a-s: this bar is riveted on the s/n 5431 and screwed on the 1453, 3132 and 4642. It would not be normal to have a 1b with a screw bar.
I think that the original 1a s/n 4557 (which certainly had a screwed bar) was defective and the whole camera was exchanged against an early 1b taken on the assembly line, on which the 1a number was engraved (the same was made by Leitz for the Leicas). That explains the riveted bar and the green curtains. The date scratched inside must be a 1b's, not 1a's.
But you know all that!
||Posted - May 26 2023 : 5:18:43 PM
I have inspected my 4232, unfortunatelly there are no numbers scratched in. But can you check if the part where the bottom locks in (near the two screws for the spring tension are) it screwed in or rivited? On mine this part is screwed. On my 5899 and the 7102 this part is rivited.
||Posted - May 23 2023 : 02:59:39 AM
Thanks for the date, Ulrich.
In fact, I have 2/2/IV or 2/R/IV on mine.
So, very probably both cameras were made in april (1935). Our two cameras are twins by all their features. And mine was certainly an exchange under warranty: the original 1a is only some months earlier.
But is it the case too for all the others? Probably not...
||Posted - May 22 2023 : 2:48:54 PM
a very nice find, the FED with the green curtains. I think those cameras are rare. Btw, are other colors than green known? Some Leicas have red curtains as I know.
I took a look inside my 7102, on the right bottom of the shutter housing is "4/17 IV" scratched in.
||Posted - May 22 2023 : 07:46:18 AM
And this s/n 4557 has green curtains:
... exactly like Ulrich's 1b s/n 7102, here: http://ussrphoto.com/Forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3166&SearchTerms=fed,green,curtain
Internal date: 2 IV. Ulrich, do you have a date inside your s/n 7102? That would be interesting to know...
||Posted - May 22 2023 : 07:35:05 AM
I go on digging...
That time, it's a very early 1b, without accessory clip, with a 1a serial number:
Probably the original Fed 1a s/n was exchanged against a very early 1b for some reason (certainly repair)
||Posted - Apr 17 2023 : 11:22:57 AM
Another 1b for this thread:
This s/n 1611 is exactly like my s/n 47042, in all details, especially the profile of the release button. Lens s/n 49908.
For the inside date: only X. So october? But why no day, as usual? Would that mean something? In my s/n 47042, the inside date is 22 IX.
Comments are welcome!
||Posted - Jun 10 2022 : 10:24:33 AM
Another Fed camera with a strange number
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/1062022_fed 9709 1.jpg
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/1062022_fed 9709 2.jpg
In fact, an ordinary 1d, as it seems, but with a Fed 1b serial number.
I have no other detail about it and could not buy it: too expensive. But the explanation could be a missing cipher (s/n 97x09, for example).
||Posted - Aug 23 2020 : 05:27:52 AM
A friend of mine asks for some other photos of this #67610.
Here they are.
||Posted - Aug 20 2020 : 11:13:31 AM
Well, the s/n 67610 is here.
No doubt: it's a 1d with all its features. The shutter box (iron sheet) and the film plate (magnetic, with hole) denote a camera in the c. 110000/150000 range, if all is original. The s/n of the lens (113869) confirms that possibility.
That time, no possible "missing cipher" (167610 would be too far), so, no question to try and find a twin in that range: with such a serial number, it's impossible...
Very happy to get a mysterious camera more!
PS: date engraved inside: 2/XII. So, the shutter box was regularly controlled.
||Posted - Aug 12 2020 : 10:05:58 AM
A new NKVD with odd s/n should soon arrive here.
Here is a photo of the seller:
A s/n of 67610 (1c) is impossible with the CCCP engraving (1d). At first sight, it should be an error of engraving with a "1" missing on the s/n. More photos when I receive it.
||Posted - Nov 12 2018 : 09:40:49 AM
So, the mystery remains unsolved. This camera is really very well mounted, for me, better than the other Fed NKVD I have seen. But when was it made? Why? And what about the magnetic frame counter, the special release spring, the plaque inside the bottom, the absence of date inside and of course this odd serial number?
PS: Don't hesitate to ask for other photos, if you have ideas.
||Posted - Nov 12 2018 : 09:28:53 AM
No hole for a possible connecting rod for slow speeds. And a very ingenious and simple shade with a cut to allow the movement of the diaphragm lever.
||Posted - Nov 12 2018 : 09:21:20 AM
So, nothing extraordinary. The press film with its screw to fix it is common until s/n 12xxxx/13xxxx. It's more interesting to remark that a place has been scraped: it's there that the day and month of mounting are usually engraved... Certainly, that means something... No engraving on the shutter box as well.
||Posted - Nov 12 2018 : 09:14:02 AM
I had to dismount my s/n 25726 to see if there is something strange inside. At least, I have just done it. But I could not remove the cover as the VF/RF windows are too tightly screwed. It's certainly a long time since somebody had a look inside...
||Posted - Jul 31 2018 : 1:33:54 PM
Bill, I absolutely agree, no point of guessing here, it's counterproductive and creates a lot of false facts.
||Posted - Jul 31 2018 : 11:44:00 AM
Me too. I have no idea and was just relaying what the guy Igor said and thought. But he did go out and take photos of a different (smaller red brick) building that he said was a FED building.
I don't know if any of these theories are correct. They all seem a little off. My best guess is that these cameras were numbered differently because they were used by an official agency, or as Guido said, for an update.
Sometimes it is better to wait until the answer becomes apparent.
||Posted - Jul 30 2018 : 11:28:03 AM
Bill, that's interesting. I'm just conveying the word of a person who lives in that area... I don't know what to think now .
||Posted - Jul 30 2018 : 11:27:06 AM
When you go to google street view for "Sumskaya 135 Kharkov" you can see what I believe is the old FED factory. Now it seems to be the "Kharkov Aviation Factory" or something similar.
Probably this may have been where the new FED building was and the old one was close, in Lesopark, but smaller and the original factory? Probably "Lesopark 27" may have been an area or group of buildings, rather than a particular building?
Remember this was 80 years ago so your friend in Kharkov may not be old enough to have seen these changes?
||Posted - Jul 30 2018 : 10:23:48 AM
Although I no longer have the photographs, Igor went and took photos of both locations, so I'm not sure that they are the same building. If I remember correctly, the smaller building was several blocks from the main FED factory.
I would think that as they expanded production, they must have expanded their space too?
||Posted - Jul 29 2018 : 8:34:25 PM
Bill, et al,
I've talked to my contact in Kharkov who is familiar with FED factory and its location, basically Lesopark 27 and Sumskaya 135 or whatever number it was it's the same one building, Lesopark is just a larger area that spans 9km like a forest preserve complex surrounding the factory. So the address was apparently written either/or sometime in second half of 1930s.
||Posted - Jul 29 2018 : 1:23:44 PM
As far as I can tell from the e-mail correspondence with Igor, he did not have a reason for the separate additional location for FED. But, from my own research, it appears that this was around the time when FED was expanding rapidly and so would have needed more space for all types of manufacturing, servicing, assembly, and clerical work. So it stands to reason that if there was another location, that expansion may be the reason.
As far as an old passport being altered by being 'washed', it is very unlikely. I am an art dealer by profession and know quite a bit about methods that are used to alter paper and the printed and handwritten images on it. It would be difficult, if not impossible to wash (usually using a water and bleach solution) the type of cheap paper that was used on FED passports of this era. It is possible to do so on later, better quality paper such as that used on vehicle documents, which are printed on a higher grade of paper, especially after WWII. So in my opinion, not likely or impossible in this case. Also.on this porous, large-grain type of passport paper, washing would easily show and that does not appear to be the case on this one.
||Posted - Jul 29 2018 : 11:28:11 AM
I had not seen Bill's correspondence (other page). Many thanks!
The two locations could explain the differences of dates I have found. But why mount these odd cameras elsewhere? Would it be a special location for special demands: repairs, upgrading, series for administration, etc.?
||Posted - Jul 29 2018 : 10:52:25 AM
Bill, thank you for posting your correspondence! I remember we did discuss this before on this forum. I have a contact in Kharkov I can try to see if he knows something as well about the second location.
||Posted - Jul 29 2018 : 09:08:43 AM
Passport is no solid evidence. The text can be "washed" and rewritten.
This was done to several vehicle passports that were sold to west after USSR collapsed.
Exhaust & equipment regulations in west were more strict.
Non-privately owned vehicles became private and could be sold.
Even I had one with non authentic papers...
||Posted - Jul 29 2018 : 07:51:55 AM
Me again. Sorry!
I have just checked the dates engraved inside the body, on the shutter box, by the worker who mounted the camera. I hoped that these dates could tell us something about the insertion of these odd cameras in the regular numbering.
In fact, there is nothing completely clear if we compare the "twins":
- (2)1126 : I (mark,not date).........- 21225 : 25 IV (1936)
- (6)2092 : 26 III....................- 59349 : 19 III (1938)
- (3)3631 : 14 I......................- 34270 : 29 XII (1936)
- (2)4580 : 17 III....................- 25617 : 27 VII scratched and replaced by 7 III (1936).
- (1)25726: nothing.
Just two remarks.
- The odd numbers seem a bit delayed (several weeks), compared to the "twin" of the regular production. The time to check cameras belonging to a special series? But we have only three comparisons: not enough to be sure of anything.
- There is nothing inside the s/n 25726, which is exceptional. My Fed Arsenal and one of my Fed NKAP only are in that case! These dates will disappear somewhere in 1950.
||Posted - Jul 29 2018 : 02:38:08 AM
The s/n 4875 is very interesting too.
By the features, it belongs to a s/n 10000-20000. 14875 would be correct.
About upgrading, we had already discussed about this hypothesis in a previous thread (impossible to find it with the "search" function?). Leitz and Zeiss had already done that for their Leicas and Contaxes. A very interesting idea. But for the moment, I don't "feel" a general explanation which could fit all the cases.
||Posted - Jul 29 2018 : 02:11:29 AM
The official passport of the s/n 3504 is very interesting. Its date (20/08/1936) should lead towards a body s/n around 23000 (25000th Fed made in november 1936 -Princelle). Instead of that, we see a body in the 30/45000, by the engraving, the milling of the buttons, the vulcanite, the release button... And of course by the s/n of the lens (44236) which could denote a "real" s/n of 43504 for the body, if we look for a correlation.
There is an incoherence. The passport comes with a camera which will exist only in the future...
All that can be compared, for me, to the 1b s/n 42457, lens 47306, showed by DVD Technik and which has a passport too. http://www.dvdtechcameras.com/collect/fed/fed.htm
This passport reads march (?) 1937 (unsure about the month), which is coherent with what we know about the production of cameras in these years.
||Posted - Jul 28 2018 : 4:11:16 PM
Yes, it is a good explanation and makes sense. Especially because a number were upgraded to "S". An upgrade makes more sense than repair with warranty and also makes sense why so many earlier cameras were given an upgrade to a the new standards, most importantly, interchangeable lenses and the new accessories. Maybe the instructional plate was an option during upgrade (to make it more like a Leica?) but not often chosen as it has a limited purpose to someone who already knows how to use the camera, and so was rarely chosen and maybe only offered for a short time..
||Posted - Jul 28 2018 : 2:42:43 PM
Thank you very much for the picture of the passport for #3504. It's an important find and it supports my opinion that this low s/n on newer cameras are upgrades to better models. In the case of the #3504 from 1934 (FED-1a) the upgrade was for the accessories shoe in 1936 (FED-1b). The passport also shows the number of the new lens for the FED-1b because earlier FED-1a maybe had there own adjusted lenses as Leica had in the early days. The number of the lens could be from 1936 or 1937 as I estimate without great knowledge of this. So I think this was a new passport made for the upgraded FED-1b.
An other sign that this really could be an upgrade is the fact that some of the short numbers are upgraded to FED-S versions as I understand.
What do you think about my conclutions?
Best wishes - Guido
||Posted - Jul 28 2018 : 12:17:33 PM
Here is more information in the form of e-mails between me and a man named Igor who had an unusual numbers camera for sale. It was a long time ago, but I don't have the date (before 2008). Originally I told him I thought the camera was a fake, and then we had the following exchange. He did send me photos of a building, as he promised, where he said FED worked, but I no longer have them.
Here is the exchange - sorry for the length, but maybe of some help.
Dear Bill,Thank you very much for reply.I understand you. But please don`t say
more that this camera ia a replica.I asked again about
this camera in my friend He is collector. He have camera
like this passport.Camera was made in Aug 1936, but not
on FED territory. I`ll make pics for you. I`ll show you
FED and some building where was made this camera. In
passport I found: "Made in Kharkov Lesopark (WoodPark)"
In passport usual FED address: "Kharkov, Sumskaya Str.
(I don`t remember number, I think 134)" Ask you know
like FED Berdsk was made also not of FED factory. But
this is not a replica.I don`t know why was
use incorect serial number. But this camera not a
replica.On Sunday spatial for you I`ll make pics were was
made this camera. And I`ll make pics of passport and
camera which have my friend. I`ll make new description on
this FED and will try sell it.
Dear Igor, Thanks for the photos and information
about your friend's camera. Also, please let me
apologize and say I am sorry to have called your camera a
fake.Now I can see that this is not the case. Now the mystery is ... Why does a
1936 FED have such an unusual seria lnumber? I don't
see anything unusual about the camera except for
the seria lnumber and the passport of your friends
camera. The passport if different from ones I
have seen before, as you say, because it has that
address of "Kharkov 27 - Lesopark". I have a photo
in a book (Princelle's new edition, page 90) of
a passport from a FED in February 1936. It looks
different and what I noticed is that the address is
"Kharkov 54". So this is a different part of Kharkov
than the one on your friends passport, probably. A
FED that I have from 1936 (serial # 19469) also has a
blue rangefinder,so that is probably not unusual.
The serial number for the lens you have on your camera
and the one of your friends camera does not seem to be
much different from any FED of 1936 and my camera has
a similar number. I know that FED was going
through many changes during this time and in 1936 it
was reported in Sovetsko Foto that aside from the
750 members of the FED commune, and additional 400
workers were hired from outside to work on camera
production. 1935 & 1936 is exactly when the production of
FEDs went from about 4000 per year up to about 15-20,000
a year. This period is also when the original
director, Makarenko, was directed to leave FED and
shortly after the NKVD took charge of the factory.
So, I am guessing that maybe these two cameras of you
and your friend were made at another factory at Lesnopark
(maybe a temporary factory) where the newly hired workers
were located. (And maybe they were not instructed about
the correct serial numbers to use?). In any case,
it is just a guess on my part and I don't really
know what the story is, but the cameras do look
I have just returned and have seen your newauction.
It is an interesting camera but I still am not sure
why it has the low number. It is a FED-1b from 1936 for
sure... only the number is unusual!
Maybe it was made with that number to go with a set of
accessories, also with that number. Just at this time,
many accessories such as a lightmeter, wide & amp; telephoto
lens, and right angle viewers were being madefor the
first time for FED.
I and my friends don`t know
why was use this seria lnumbers. Friend in Kiev
also collector have FED 1 with serial 3***. I don`t know
more ppl how have or had this unusual FED. Yes, I know
usual FED`s was made in other factory (on FED). But
this camera was made in other place. If you want I can
make photo of FED and "Komunnar" (In 1936 "Komunnar"
asked "TrudovayaKomunna") I know that in Lesopark
was killed a lot soldier and traitors after war and before. In forestpark there was a military staff. And between FED and DrudKomunna there was a
small railway communication. This is all informaton in
this time which I let you know.
(Note: these e-mails may not be in order. I have lost the original e-mails and only have this text copy .. hope it helps in some way!)
||Posted - Jul 28 2018 : 11:44:04 AM
Here is FED No. 3631 and No. 417
Here is FED No. 3631
Here is FED No. 3909
Here is 4586
Here is FED No. 4875
||Posted - Jul 28 2018 : 11:38:29 AM
The rest of the photos are all I have in my files. Some may be helpful.
Here is FED No. 417
Here is FED No.1653 (4 photos)
||Posted - Jul 28 2018 : 11:10:09 AM
Actually it is FED 3504.
||Posted - Jul 28 2018 : 11:07:30 AM
I will post what I have. Here is the most interesting thing.
FED No. 3505 and it's passport from 1936. I can't remember where I got this. I did not own the camera and passport. Maybe this has been seen by members before.
||Posted - Jul 28 2018 : 05:34:48 AM
The same plate on a 1937 Leica III:
Perhaps it would be interesting you post your photos, Bill, so that we look for a relation between numbers, as I did?
||Posted - Jul 27 2018 : 11:36:56 PM
Also, I still have some photos of some of these cameras:
3504 ( and photos of the passport )
And, I have an e-mail correspondence with a collector in Kharkov who had some information about a different location in Kharkov where FED had a building. He told me of a passport that had a different location on it. Probably too much stuff to put on the forum, but I can send it by e-mail.
||Posted - Jul 27 2018 : 11:17:18 PM
It is a mystery all right. When I look at the list we have, I can see some patterns, but no doubt there are and were many more of these unusual numbered cameras. If the list was larger and the actual details of the cameras noted, then maybe we could get a better idea, of any reasons for it. It could be a reason or reasons we have not thought of, something weird such as ... when a camera was found and an owner could not be found (lost, recovered stolen property, turned in by an agency, etc.) a new one was engraved with the old number. Or, when production was reviewed and some numbers, or the records of numbers, were missing, a new production camera was given the number.
It would be interesting to see if any of the unusual number examples exist as well as the original number .. so two cameras with the same number, one older and one newer!
||Posted - Jul 27 2018 : 3:01:48 PM
I do have to admit that your theory of special order with its own numbering is plausible but why start in 25xxx that's a mystery..
||Posted - Jul 27 2018 : 2:44:38 PM
I agree with Vlad that this camera of Jacques is an interesting discovery because of the instructional plate.
The instructional plate looks authentic to me, and the way it is attached indicates that it was added to a factory base-plate. Very possibly a special-order for a small number of cameras, since we have not seen it before.
It is hard for me to believe that this camera was a replacement for a damaged camera and that the instructional plate was added for no reason!
This is why I am thinking that during this Soviet pre-WWII period, when an official agency or branch / department of the military requisitioned cameras from FED, the order was numbered differently than those cameras that were meant for civilian use.
So, maybe an official agency ordered a small number of cameras with the instructional plate, for their specific needs, and they were numbered in this different manner.
||Posted - Jul 26 2018 : 08:16:55 AM
I have no problem to accept the idea to reingrave an old s/n on a new cover. Leica had done the same when improving cameras.
But I always lean upon the same obstacle. The reingraving should be made on a camera taken on the assembly line. For example, if the line works on the s/n 28xxx, and the original camera has the s/n 2500, we will find "brothers" (= same features) for the new s/n 2500 in the 28xxx. But there won't be any relation in the s/n.: nothing in the 125xx, 225xx, 325xx, etc.
Here we have a double relation in almost all my examples: features and numbers. Except for the 25726. Probably it's too much to be normal. But I don't know if my doubts are quite understandable!
It would be interesting that other owners can post pictures of their cameras... Perhaps there are several explanations?
||Posted - Jul 25 2018 : 3:44:35 PM
Hello again everyone, and Bill great to see you here! Sorry for my prolonged absense, I've been travelling..
Regarding the original camera posted: all great points (especially Alfa's depiction of Soviet workplace is spot-on), a few thoughts from my end though. I am very puzzled by the warning plaque on the bottom plate, although I doubt a military connection, but may be techincal use by an organization.. it's probably the most interesting discovery I've seen in recent times with these pre-war FEDs..
I do have to argue a bit about the fact that they wouldn't engrave the numbers to match the passport. From the materials I've been reading in Soviet Photo and other pre-war articles, it seems like the FEDs before the war were almost an item of extreme luxury, a privilege to have in your possession, as these cameras very hard to find and it high deficit, and passports for those would prove your ownership as well and be on record at FED for warranty. Having multiple of these would possibly raise questions of impropriety in USSR (even consider you bourgeois). It's like having a deed to a house or a title to a car. So I can totally see them reengraving the number of the camera if it's beyond repair to match your passport...