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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
2002 Posts
My Collection
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Fred_L
France
226 Posts |
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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 09 2012 : 2:35:32 PM
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Very interesting!
Perhaps I am wrong, but it seems these two cameras are brothers: the special vulcanite is just the same...
Jacques. |
Edited by - Jacques M. on Jun 09 2012 2:57:13 PM |
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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
2002 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jun 09 2012 : 3:42:14 PM
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Ok Of course these ceras are well done recent fakes The leatherette reminds me those of Leningrad, Sokol and Lada cameras which may be a surplus from LOMO
Regards
LP |
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Fred_L
France
226 Posts |
Posted - Jun 10 2012 : 03:49:15 AM
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Yes, leatherette seems to be the same for all this fakes... I have seen another one with ewactly the same cover...
I think they couls imagine a better quality leatherette...Just because when we have a look at the quality of manufacturing....Imagine the tools to make such a camera with no default.... So why saving so little money by choosing this plastic???? |
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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Jun 10 2012 : 3:24:44 PM
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I am surprised too by the vulcanite, for the same reasons, Fred.
And I have an early Leica which has a leatherette (made of leather, I confirm) which looks like this plastic vulcanite...
Anyway, an interesting camera!
Amitiés. Jacques. |
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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
2002 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jun 12 2012 : 5:48:08 PM
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My theory about this camera is the following:
By some reason government ordered a bath of those '75s for unknown purposes. the factory produced several shells, upper and lower plates. This explains the quality of parts.
The request was canceled. The remaining parts were assembled for some people interested in buying this oddity. A further batch after the "openings" begun to be produced for collectors.... and we are now seeing them.
Regards LP |
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Guido Studer
Guido
Switzerland
362 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jun 12 2012 : 7:35:11 PM
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Hello Luiz
quote:
Originally posted by Luiz Paracampo
My theory about this camera is the following:
By some reason government ordered a bath of those '75s for unknown purposes. the factory produced several shells, upper and lower plates. This explains the quality of parts.
The request was canceled. The remaining parts were assembled for some people interested in buying this oddity. A further batch after the "openings" begun to be produced for collectors.... and we are now seeing them.
Regards LP
I agree to your view that the Zorki 75 was/is made in our times, will say in this century or maybe some years before. But I never heard of a prototype of such a camera, so I don't think the camera is not a "fake" of our days. Well, the Zorki 75 is not a "fake", it's just a *fantasy* camera (because for a fake an original camera must exist).
By the way there is an other "original" camera with nearly 75 pictures on a standard 36 picture film, the Leica 72 (I have a very nice fake of such a camera made in the Russia maybe some 15 years ago). The Leica 72 is a half frame camera (24x18mm) and fairly rare. So I see no need for having a camera with the potential of taking 75 pictures at all. But that's my opinion only after all.
Just my 2 cents ...
Best wishes - Guido
PS: If someone of you have the magazine "Classic Camera International", issue #10, 5-1999, I'm looking for an article from
Luigi Crescenzi about some faked cameras made by a certain Vadim. If you could send me a scan of this article I would be absolutly happy. Thank you in advance!
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jun 12 2012 : 9:59:26 PM
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Hello, Luiz, Guido, Jacques, and Fred,
Who can tell why the center screw on the top plate is half covered by the back rim of the lens on both of these cameras. No Zorki has this, if I remember correctly. I don't think KMZ would make the camera this way! For sure they are modern fakes without any age of more than a few years. Not so hard to make if this is what you do for a living!
Regards, Bill
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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Jun 13 2012 : 07:32:00 AM
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Absolutely right and thanks, Bill!
Right too to say that this camera cannot be a fake, as there is no Leica Reporter 75, as it seems. There were about 1000 Leica Reporter 250 made, if I am right. Unfoundable now.
The mechanism of this Zorki could come from a 1b or 1c, But of course it is of no use to date this "fantasy" camera.
Here is the leatherette of my 1931 Leica I (upgraded into II) which looks like the vulcanite of this Zorki.
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1362012_leatherette Leica I.jpg
Amitiés. Jacques. |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jun 13 2012 : 10:49:56 AM
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Hi Jacques,
I would call it a 'fake' if it is not represented as a 'fantasy' camera when sold. For example, in art, if a painting is signed with an artist's name, but was not painted by the artist, it would be called a fake, even if it is not an exact copy of an existing painting ... it would not be called a fantasy painting. The intention is to mislead, unless the seller or maker states that it is a modern fantasy model.
So, in my opinion, to use the name "Zorki" on the top makes it a fake. If they called it something like 'Sovetskoe - 75" then it can be a fantasy camera ... not represented to be made by KMZ.
Maybe the correct term would be that it is 'not authentic'?
Regards, Bill
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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Jun 13 2012 : 12:16:23 PM
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Hi Bill,
I should have said :"it is not a copy because there were no Leica Reporter 75".
So, OK for a fake, concerning this camera.
Just a question more about that problem of denomination: Fed are Leica copies (some are fakes when re-engraved Leica), but what about Kievs ?
Amitiés. Jacques. |
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Fred_L
France
226 Posts |
Posted - Jun 13 2012 : 5:05:32 PM
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HI all!!
When I will ber back home next week, I will have a look to "vulcanite" to check if it is in plastic or leather.....
About discussion, it is not important for me to know if the camera is considered as fake or non authetic or fantasy camera...
The general view of this camera seems to be a Leica copy of a Leica that never existed.....The global spirit of a leica copy seems to be respected in my mind....Just because many parts of the camera are coming from original cameras....
And I can confirm it works very well.. shutter , rangefinder, counter,etc....
Fred |
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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jun 14 2012 : 11:06:41 PM
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Hello Jacques,
The original Kiev are not copies or fakes, in my opinion, since they come directly from the German Contax. To me, in this case with the original Kiev, it is the evolution (or de-evolution as far as quality is concerned) of a German camera becoming a Russian camera. So, as usual with wartime events, not too easy to classify in normal terms. For example, were the Russians justified to take the Contax production line ... parts and technicians, etc. back to Russia after what Germany did to Russia during the war. Who is to say for sure, and no doubt a matter of varying opinions. In any case, the German Contax did become the Kiev and evolved from that point as a Russian camera.
Regards, Bill
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jun 16 2012 : 2:35:19 PM
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Hello Gentlemen!
I've been a bit scare on my posts lately, a bit busy at home and work but I've been following this thread with great interest.
First of all this is a very beautiful camera and my congratulations to the owners of these, these are very hard to come by.
In my opinion you can't call these either fakes of fantasies, what I think proper terms for these Zorkis are "Aftermarket modification". In my opinion these are extremely collectible and are a part of Russian/Soviet photographic history as these are quite unique pieces even if they haven't been made by a factory. I'm not a "purist" collector that only sticks to factory stuff, I love these folk art pieces that are a marvel of engineering especially outside of factory conditions.
Cheers,
Vlad. |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jun 16 2012 : 8:01:11 PM
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Hi Vlad,
I like these cameras and have collected a few of them too! And you are correct that they are 'after-market modifications'. But that is a general term that would mean any modification made to an original factory model. So I would have to say that all fakes and all fantasy cameras are after-market modifications.
The way I see it is that it is not a problem for advanced collectors who know what these cameras are (that they never existed as factory models or that they are imitating a factory model, but are not authentic), but that newer, less experienced collectors are not clear about what they are because it is not stated in the sales description.
If you are a beginning collector and you see a rare Zorki-75 on Ebay for a few hundred dollars, if you don't have the books or know how to find out, you may easily think that the camera is authentic and rare because they look so good.
In a way, what you call a camera like this depends on how it is represented. If just "Zorki-75" then it could be considered a 'fake', but if it is represented in the description as an 'after-market modification', and maybe a 'fantasy' or unique modification that never existed from the factory then everyone would know the truth. I wish (although I know it won't happen) that Moscowphoto and other sellers of these cameras would say that they were fantasy models made by expert, professional camera repair technicians who may have worked at the factories when they were active. And, that they are collectible and rare in their own right, as only a few will be made. This would be honest.
Regards, Bill
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Guido Studer
Guido
Switzerland
362 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jun 16 2012 : 8:46:17 PM
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Hello Vlad, hello Bill
The Zorki 75 is a fantasy camera certenly, sorry Vlad. And I would have one for shure. But with a price of 1500 Euro, US$ or what ever it's too expensive for me. I own several fakes and fantasie cameras but there prices were resonable. I pay 150 US$ for a well faked FED-Zorki, but not very much more.
"After-market modification" ... what a wonderfull word! Bill, you are right, it's a general term including fakes and fantasy cameras.
Some times ago I made offers to sellers who tryed to sell fakes at a price too high. And some of them accepted my offers, others not. Don't forget a modification is worth many hours of working on such a camera and I respect this work of handcraft of workmen.
Moscowphoto is a wonderfull resource of very nice modifications and the prices are quite reasonable. Mostly. ;->
Best wishes - Guido
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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Jun 19 2012 : 08:15:21 AM
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Hello,
Anyway, the most important is to know what we buy exactly. It depends on the knowledge of the buyers: I agree with Bill.
And it depends too on the honesty of some sellers. As I have already said in another topic, I have several items of which I don't know if they are fakes or genuine.
I don't speak of Fed-Leicas: most of the time, it's too evident they are not genuine! But rather of early Kievs and more generally of the early KMZ and Arsenal stuff.
But all that is probably far from the initial subject: sorry Luiz!
Amitiés. Jacques. |
Edited by - Jacques M. on Jun 19 2012 10:39:41 AM |
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ZORKI 75
