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jed
France
391 Posts
My Collection
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 Posted - Sep 13 2014 : 03:20:30 AM
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Hi,
Just bought a non working 1951 Kiev II for repair. Here's two pictures of the shutter. Still German parts inside ?
The camera look like a new one. The ribbons show no wear !
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jed
France
391 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Sep 13 2014 : 03:38:02 AM
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off-topic 
here's what I found inside another non working camera 
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Alexander K.
AlexanderK
Germany
590 Posts |
Posted - Sep 13 2014 : 05:24:36 AM
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Hi,
there is nothing unusual. So far as I know, German parts were used in Kievs till 1952.
Regards, Alexander |
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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Sep 22 2014 : 2:52:54 PM
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Yes, some German parts were used late on Kievs, for example DIN lightmeters untill 1952 or 1953 for Kiev III.
But I doubt for the shutters. Anyway, it's very difficult to be affirmative. Dresden parts were (of course!) German. But what can we say about Jena ones, in the 1945/47 years? Made by German and Russian people, and looking exactly like the parts which will be made in Kiev... with the German machine tools.
I have seen somewhere an article about the differences between the texture and the glue of German vs Russian shutters. I try to find it again.
Amitiés. Jacques. |
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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Sep 23 2014 : 07:56:32 AM
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Ha, I have found:
http://www.zeisscamera.com/articles_blackhole.shtml
An article by Henry Scherer, well known repairman of Contaxes.
There are very interesting details about internal differences between Contaxes and early Kievs. And a curious manner to speak of the German production (capital G) and of the russian one (always small r).
Amitiés. Jacques. |
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jed
France
391 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Sep 23 2014 : 10:42:30 AM
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Hello,
Here's the part that makes me think it's a German shutter :
Here's a Kiev shutter :
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jed
France
391 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Sep 23 2014 : 10:56:15 AM
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Here's the camera :
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SteveA
United Kingdom
134 Posts |
Posted - Sep 25 2014 : 2:14:17 PM
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Hi, a good way to check if this is a Zeiss shutter is to look for a black leather strip on the lower shutter roller - generally this indicates Zeiss shutter blinds. The gear design which you highlight was a Zeiss pattern, the Russians simplified the design later, possibly when the production line was re-tooled.
Cheers,
Steve |
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jed
France
391 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Sep 25 2014 : 4:47:59 PM
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Hi Steve,
Thanks, I wasn't aware of that. I need to learn more
Here's a picture of the lower shutter roller from that camera :
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jed
France
391 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Sep 25 2014 : 5:11:06 PM
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The Kiev II s/n is 511190
I also own a Kiev III s/n A511469. The Kiev III shutter has the simplified gear (!) and the same lower shutter roller.
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Edited by - jed on Sep 25 2014 5:12:09 PM |
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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Sep 26 2014 : 07:21:04 AM
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Many thanks, Jed and Steve, for all these details I was not aware of.
Is there a manner to know if these Contax parts come from Dresden or Jena, or simply were made in Kiev on the German machine tools?
You have convinced me, Jed: I will have a look at the Inside of my early Kievs to know what they hide!
Amitiés. Jacques. |
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Michel
France
217 Posts |
Posted - Sep 26 2014 : 08:10:11 AM
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Hi Jacques,
I'm afraid I will NOT dare to dismantle my 48, 49, 50, 51, A51 Kievs to check the shutters ! 
Amicalement,
M. |
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SteveA
United Kingdom
134 Posts |
Posted - Sep 26 2014 : 11:18:09 AM
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OK, so a quick history lesson. The Soviet's had to get Zeiss Jena to reverse engineer much of the Jena Contax II from surviving parts, i.e. produce new drawings and masters from which to cast/machine new parts. Due to material shortages and loss of original machine tools, many parts varied in design from the original Contax. That said, there were large quantities of unused Zeiss Ikon components, and these were used initially to make the Kiev cameras. Hence the chrome fronts with 'CONTAX' rolled out, and KNEB hand engraved over the top. Contax blinds of a certain pattern will fit the Kiev, as will some gear sets, winding mechanism components, light baffles etc. Contax parts gradually ran out - you will find significant numbers of Zeiss parts in 1947 - 1949 cameras, then slowly they are superceded by Arsenal manufactured parts into 1950/51. Note that, for the Kiev III, early cameras had Zeiss meters and meter scales in degrees DIN. I do take some of what Henry S. says with a pinch of salt - I have worked on some dreadful Contaxes and some very fine Kiev's, particularly from the 1950's.
Cheers,
Steve |
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SteveA
United Kingdom
134 Posts |
Posted - Sep 26 2014 : 11:20:50 AM
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Forgot to mention - your camera looks to have Kiev blinds from the appearance of the lifting heal - it looks like hard felt rather than leather.
Steve |
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SteveA
United Kingdom
134 Posts |
Posted - Sep 26 2014 : 11:25:38 AM
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And I can see from looking at the picture of your 1951 Kiev II it looks to have a Zeiss shutter. The giveaway is the lack of the cast blind stop on the bottom left of the shutter housing - I suspect the blind itself has a brass extension on the left which hits against the inside of the film frame (which screws to the body)??
Steve |
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jed
France
391 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Sep 26 2014 : 1:43:50 PM
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Hello Steve,
Some close up pictures added. Don't know if it meets your assumption. Please tell me.
Here's the 1951 Kiev III
(lower shutter roller looks like the same as the one inside the II)
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Edited by - jed on Sep 26 2014 2:45:41 PM |
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SteveA
United Kingdom
134 Posts |
Posted - Sep 27 2014 : 1:54:43 PM
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Hi, the pictures you posted show a Kiev shutter assembly, however the ones of the non-working camera (Posted - Sep 13 2014 : 03:38:02 AM) I beleive show a Zeiss shutter. The cast blind stop shown on the second of the above pictures is not present, Zeiss eventually changed the design to the Kiev type as the brass pin which hit against the bottom of the film gate was prone to bending, causing issues with the latching of the shutter blinds. Out of interest, is the meter scale on your Kiev III marked in DIN or GOST?
Steve |
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jed
France
391 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Sep 27 2014 : 2:49:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by SteveA
Hi, the pictures you posted show a Kiev shutter assembly, however the ones of the non-working camera (Posted - Sep 13 2014 : 03:38:02 AM) I beleive show a Zeiss shutter. T
Steve,
You're right - I forgot to mention the camera is a Contax II (s/n starts with "E")
quote:
Out of interest, is the meter scale on your Kiev III marked in DIN or GOST?
The meter is marked in DIN :
May I ask you another question ?
Here's a back from a military Contax III, have you ever seen this before ?
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Edited by - jed on Sep 28 2014 04:56:47 AM |
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SteveA
United Kingdom
134 Posts |
Posted - Sep 28 2014 : 03:11:37 AM
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Many thanks - so your Kiev III has Zeiss metering components, at least the meter scale is Zeiss Ikon and perhaps the meter itself. I've not seen that tripod mount before but I suspect it was modified to be more robust/give greater stability. With the Contax IIa/IIIa Zeiss moved the mount thread to the camera body rather than the back, which improved the robustness of the mount.
Cheers,
Steve |
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jed
France
391 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Sep 28 2014 : 09:36:27 AM
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Steve,
The lack of that part may be an issue (light leak) - surprisingly it misses most of the cameras I've opened, even Contaxes.
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Edited by - jed on Sep 28 2014 1:40:00 PM |
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SteveA
United Kingdom
134 Posts |
Posted - Sep 28 2014 : 1:00:48 PM
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Yes that little light baffle is critical - it was not fitted to the very earliest Contaxes (these also did not have the round baffle which slides into the front of the main black baffle which covers the shutter curtains). It is so flimsy it soon gets damaged or lost. A small piece of black tape can be used across the join between the main body and film gate if the little baffle is missing.
There should also be paper baffling over the top of the shutter, between the chassis and body.
Steve |
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jed
France
391 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Sep 30 2014 : 10:47:40 AM
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Thanks lots Steve !
A 1950 - non working - Kiev II is on the way to my home. I will post pictures of the shutter.
Best,
Jean |
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jed
France
391 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Oct 15 2014 : 11:36:30 AM
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Hello,
Here's some pictures of a 1950 Kiev II camera (late s/n 506xxx)
To me the same as the one inside the previous camera.
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SteveA
United Kingdom
134 Posts |
Posted - Oct 15 2014 : 1:55:43 PM
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Hi Jed, yes these are Kiev blinds, you can tell by the felt pad on the lower drum.
Cheers,
Steve |
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jed
France
391 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Oct 15 2014 : 2:25:02 PM
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Steve,
Serial number is very hight - more than 6000 Kiev cameras that year ? 1950 Kievs are hard to find items. |
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SteveA
United Kingdom
134 Posts |
Posted - Oct 16 2014 : 1:29:31 PM
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Princelle suggests 'a very low production of around 5,000 per year' for the first three years. Suspect they are hard to find as many have worn out/been thrown away before they became collectible.
Cheers,
Steve |
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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Oct 16 2014 : 2:22:16 PM
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Hi jed!
For the moment, I have in my data numbers between 500456 to 506446 (I own the last one) about Kievs II.
So, probably about 6000 cameras made.
But nothing is certain. Holes are possible...
Amitiés. Jacques.
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Edited by - Jacques M. on Oct 16 2014 2:24:39 PM |
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jed
France
391 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Oct 25 2014 : 1:19:48 PM
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Hello,
I also own an early 1950 Kiev (export model s/n 501504) - I just have checked : the shutter seems the same as the one pictured here (october 15)
My 1958 Kiev 3a 'Ukrainian Logo' has s/n 5835128. So they made around 35000 cameras that year ? Kiev 3a is very well made. |
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jed
France
391 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Nov 03 2014 : 2:53:05 PM
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Hello,
Once again - some close up of an early 1950 Kiev II camera s/n 501504
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SteveA
United Kingdom
134 Posts |
Posted - Nov 04 2014 : 2:51:59 PM
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Hi, the chassis numbering style is very similar to my 1948 Kiev, serial number 481100 and chassis number 1100, and some photos I have of a Kiev s/n 501774 (chassis 1767) which I repaired some years back. Looks to be engraved with a sharp object into the alloy - later the numbers were stamped.
The way the number 4 is engraved on your chassis looks typically Russian to me - I have seen it written in a very similar manner in documents I have with camera serial numbers, lens serial numbers etc.
Cheers,
Steve |
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jed
France
391 Posts
My Collection
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Topic |
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A German shutter inside a 1951 Kiev II camera ?
