| Author |
 Topic  |
okynek
759 Posts |
|
Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
|
 Posted - Jan 21 2008 : 10:01:51 PM
|
Seems like it should go in as the serial number is in the correct range and what the seller says about the engraving seems right also.
Regards, Bill
|
 |
|
Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Jan 22 2008 : 06:57:48 AM
|
Hello,
It seems we must be careful with the limits 1d/1e.
I already saw several Fed 1 engraved 1d in the #173600/176000. Princelle points them in his book (he says #174000-178000). Probably some 1d pre engraved covers sent to Berdsk and put together there. They are really scarce, but it would be fine to check before putting on a list.
Amitiés. Jacques.
|
|
|
Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
|
Posted - May 28 2008 : 11:50:05 PM
|
So I am completely lost people... I got 2 books in front of me - Asquini/Pegorari and Princelle 2nd edition:
I also have this camera #177511
Princelle says that these cameras were produced in Siberia with serials on 1e 173600/174000 - c. 183000 and up. So I would assume Berdsk.
Cladio and Albino says the following about the same range: "Towards the end of 1946 the returned to Kharkov is organized and production slowly resumes. Only in 1947 it will be possible to return to full production" ... errrrrr... so while organizing in Kharkov, Berdsk is meanwhile producing this model? I'm confused.. what is the latest news on that?  So according to Asquini/Pegorari the 1e is not Berdsk at all?!
Thanks!
Vlad. |
|
|
Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - May 29 2008 : 08:55:59 AM
|
Hi Vlad,
Not an easy question. But this camera -1e type- is called "Berdsk" because we decided so. We, that is to say probably JLP, but not the factory.
In fact, Berdsk is not written on the covers: there is only "made in the factory of FE Dzerjinski, Kharkov".
We can only suppose that some cameras were put together at Berdsk from spares coming from Kharkov: perhaps these rare Fed 1d engraved CCCP after 173600-174000 (up to c. 176000 for some). The real production will begin again in 1946 with those 1e, maybe at Berdsk first then in Kharkov (from 173600-174000 too).
It would be logical, but nothing is sure!
Amitiés. Jacques. |
Edited by - Jacques M. on May 29 2008 09:14:52 AM |
|
|
Zoom
596 Posts |
Posted - May 29 2008 : 09:26:18 AM
|
quote:
From Wiki:
A fairly small number of FED 1 cameras manufactured during wartime 1941-1945 when FED factory was evacuated from Kharkov to Berdsk.
These cameras theoretically could be manufactured in 1942 year (up to October, but not later!), and in the 1945--1946 years (may be from September 1945 to October 1946, but not later again). A two variants are most realistic:
1. Only in 1942 year.
2. Only at the beginning of 1946 year. |
Edited by - Zoom on May 29 2008 09:32:10 AM |
|
|
Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - May 29 2008 : 10:11:52 AM
|
I agree with your dates, Zoom.
Between the two (and after and probably before), Fed worked mainly for aeronautics, hence the NKAP "Red Flag" in 1948 and the TSVVS, if it was made by Fed.
Jacques.
|
|
|
Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
|
Posted - May 29 2008 : 10:36:02 AM
|
One of the most helpful things in Princelle iare the "Benchmarks" notes he adds. For this case, I have noticed he writes (below the entry for the "RED FLAG - N.K.A.P."):
"Benchmarks: The FED "RED FLAG" # 201280 is delivered with a passport printed in Berdsk and countersigned the 19 August 1946."
So, I think if a passport was printed in Berdsk in 1946 then the RED FLAG camera (at least the first 1200) may have been made in Berdsk.
Also, comparing the BERSK cameras with the RED FLAG - KNAP FED you will notice many differences in the parts (the castings look different, for example, of the rangefinder housing) and the finish is also much different. So I suspect that the RED FLAGS were actually made in Berdsk when the old parts from Kharkov ran out and the next FED to come out from Kharkov was probably FED-1f.
The "Berdsk" FEDs were probably assembled in Bersk .... maybe in 1942, and sporadically throughout the war, when they were needed, but by 1945 the parts originally made (and engraved) in Kharkov were running out so a new production line had to be built and the new cameras produced were the "RED FLAG - KNAP".
So I think all FEDs with the Berdsk style engraving, and some with the earlier style engraving were assembled in Berdsk. I also think that it is possible that cameras were assembled in Berdsk, more by hand than assembly line, sporadically throughout the war.
But, all is hypothetical and based on some logic, unless more examples with passports are known (and even then only if the passports tell the place of construction or signing).
Regards, Bill
|
|
|
Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - May 29 2008 : 10:48:15 AM
|
Hi Bill,
About passports, DVD show the passport of an S eBerdsk with 31/07/1941 as a date. It would fit your hypothesis. But the date is very next to the evacuation.
It seems the paper was made in Kharkov.
Amitiés. Jacques. |
Edited by - Jacques M. on May 29 2008 10:55:28 AM |
|
|
Zoom
596 Posts |
Posted - May 29 2008 : 10:57:57 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by nightphoto
The "Berdsk" FEDs were probably assembled in Bersk .... maybe in 1942, and sporadically throughout the war, when they were needed, but by 1945 the parts originally made (and engraved) in Kharkov were running out so a new production line had to be built and the new cameras produced were the "RED FLAG - KNAP".
About a "sporadically throughout the war"...
It was one document listed there (page in Russian):
http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/misc/gko-docs.html#n2445 ...
This is the GKO (The State Committee of Defense) Decision (Order) No.2445 from October, 23rd, 1942. "About allocation of optical-mechanical manufacture from structure of factory number 296 NKAP and its transfer to NKV system".
So, from the October, 1942 according this Order the FED factory (number 296 NKAP) had no opportunities, nor the rights to make a cameras. Up to the ~1946 year, as we know... |
Edited by - Zoom on May 29 2008 11:04:34 AM |
|
|
Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
|
Posted - May 29 2008 : 11:21:57 AM
|
Thanks Zoom, that is an interesting reference and I will read it in translation. Now I see why you have said no manufacture at this time (end of '42 - beginning of '46). So, does it mean that the parts just sat there in Berdsk for 1943-1945 ?
Regards, Bill
|
|
|
Zoom
596 Posts |
Posted - May 29 2008 : 11:37:08 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by nightphoto
So, does it mean that the parts just sat there in Berdsk for 1943-1945 ?
Possibly so. While remains not clear (as there is no text of the order) to whom this optical manufacture (and in what volumes and so on) was transferred... How the optical manufacture was carried out is not clearly too...
P.S. I think, that no return at all existed. Manufacture was restored in Kharkov from scratch. |
Edited by - Zoom on May 29 2008 11:43:30 AM |
|
|
Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
|
Posted - May 29 2008 : 12:32:09 PM
|
Yes, I think manufacture was restored from scratch too ... because of the big difference from FED- KNAP to the new FED. Maybe FED had some help in setting up the new production from KMZ who already were in production with FED-Zorki & early Zorki-1 ?
Regards, Bill
|
|
|
Steve
Bull Halsey
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - May 29 2008 : 1:12:47 PM
|
Now you got me a bit mixed up, but then again it doesn't take too much to mix me up.
I own what I beleive to be a Berdsk-S, #178482.
This particular camera is one of the oldest pieces in my Russian Camera collection. I bought it in 2000.
Now, what am I to look for? Are we checking for authenticity?
Thanks,
Steve |
|
|
Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - May 29 2008 : 5:52:31 PM
|
About the passports, if you could have a look at the Berdsk S # 180024 of DVD,
-URL http://www.dvdtechcameras.com/collect/fed/fed.htm
-then click on FED S New,
-then go to the last one (before, there are several very strange S...)
The passport is interesting as it shows this curious date -31 VII 1941. Would anybody be kind enough to translate the interesting parts of it (titles, I guess)? Perhaps it would help us to know the origins and dates of these cameras.
Then I agree with Bill about connections between Fed and Zorki. For example, the Fed-KMZ we know, numerous Fed-Zorki and (as it seems)some early Zorki 1a were equipped with the 1/1000th shutter. These shutters were certainly coming from Fed as KMZ never used them after on their 1 series. And the first Fed-Zorki seem to be twins of the last Fed...
But no certitude, as usual...
Amitiés. Jacques.
|
|
|
Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
|
Posted - May 29 2008 : 8:22:17 PM
|
Hi Steve,
Your camera is in the right serial number range and although the FED-S Berdsk is rare, a number of examples are known and I have not seen fakes of it. So we are not so much talking about authenticity, but more about where these cameras, as well as the cameras that came after them, were made. Where they made in Kharkov or Berdsk, and when? So it is more a matter of history than authenticity.
Jacques,
I can read that the passport for camera (FED "Berdsk") serial number 180024 gives an address of "Kharkov, Lesnopark 54"
and also states "NKVD - CCCP ... Kharkovski Kombinat of F.E. Djerzinski". Also that it is a "FED-S". So probably no doubt this camera was finished before any move to Berdsk. Probably just before the move ... or at least they were still using this type of passport (who knows when they would actually make new passports for the new location?
Regards, Bill
|
|
|
Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
|
Posted - May 29 2008 : 9:18:44 PM
|
| Fascinating! But I'm even more confused now.. wasn't it established that the FED-S camera serial #s were mixed in with regular FED 1's? How in the world then a 1800024 FED-S was made in 1941 (DVD's passport)??? Mine is an earlier serial # than this one and that means that it was made before 1941? Then... how can it be Berdsk? Unless I'm missing something about correlation of FED-S serials vs regular serials.. were specific blocks allocated to FED-S ahead of time so the timeline on those is different than regular FEDs and it does not fall under the timeline established by JLP? |
|
|
Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
|
Posted - May 29 2008 : 9:48:26 PM
|
Hi Vlad,
Yes, if your serial number is earlier than 180024 (you added an extra "0" in your post above)then your camera was made earlier than that camera!
FED-S occurs as early as 1938 and as late as 1941 for sure (possibly later if some were assembled in Berdsk which is at this time unknown). So there are FED-S cameras that are: FED-1 type C, FED-1 type D, FED-1 type E (Berdsk).
FED-S can be any of those and will have the characteristics of those variations, but will also have 1/1000th speed and the f.2 / 50mm lens ( FED-S must have both as they were made with 1/1000 speed and issued with the f.2 lens).
Look at our list on the WIKI entry for FED-S and you will see the full range of serial numbers (although some of the earliest, before 1938, are probably not correct, maybe renumbered or with non-original rangefinder housings, and have a "?" in the list to denote that).
Regards, Bill
|
|
|
Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
|
Posted - May 29 2008 : 9:58:26 PM
|
And... as Jacques was mentioning, it seems that their may be some relationship between KMZ and FED just after the war since the FED-Zorki of 1948 & 1949 (and maybe some very early Zorki) often has a 1/1000th speed, even though the later Zorki did not have it. So, maybe it is a question to ask ... Did FED and KMZ interact just after the war when there were so many shortages and new production lines, tooling, etc. needed to be accomplished by both factories ?
As we were discussing in a different post, the early KMZ production of KMZ-FED, FED-Zorki, and Zorki cameras were all thought of as "a FED". So maybe in the beginning of KMZ there was some official idea that it was really a continuation and and enlargement of FED production, which shortly changed into two separate "Leica copies"!
Regards, Bill
|
|
|
Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
|
Posted - May 29 2008 : 10:09:01 PM
|
| So Bill, are you now saying JLP is not correct in his statement that Berdsk cameras are "serial #173600/174000 - c. 183000 and up". So if mine is 1e with #177xxx with Berdsk type engraving it's not made in Berdsk based on the camera passport that DVD has? Wouldn't that make all Berdsks before 180,000 not be Berdsks then? That they were actually still made in Kharkov before the move? |
|
|
Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
|
Posted - May 29 2008 : 10:26:26 PM
|
Vlad,
The thing is, that it is unknown where all of the cameras with this engraving were made. The fact that they are called "Berdsk" is really a misnomer and confusing. They should be called "FED-1E" based on the engraving on the top.
So because the cameras with this engraving style are called "Berdsk" does not mean they were actually made or assembled in Berdsk.
I am not saying JLP is wrong in his serial numbers range (although they may not be exactly accurate). Your camera, if it has the engraving style and serial number is a "Berdsk", but that does not mean it is made in Berdsk.
It is most likely that the serial numbers above 180xxx (or even higher now that we have seen DVDs passport) were assembled in Berdsk, but that earlier ones (173600 - 180000) were made in Kharkov.
Regards, Bill
|
|
|
Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
|
Posted - May 29 2008 : 10:34:25 PM
|
I see! Now I understand, I was confused by this all-enveloping umbrella of Berdsk name.. I agree, if you call it Berdsk then it should be ones that are actually made in Berdsk, otherwise it's just 1E.. well that sucks then, now I need to find a unit close to 183,000 range... 
Thank you very much for the clarification!
Vlad |
|
|
Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
|
Posted - May 29 2008 : 10:40:13 PM
|
Right ... but it is uncertain that any are from Berdsk, unless you get one with a passport that says "Berdsk" and I have never seen that, although Princelle says there is a passport with "Berdsk" ... but for a "RED FLAG-KNAP"!
Regards, Bill
|
|
|
Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
|
Posted - May 29 2008 : 10:42:12 PM
|
I've updated the text in Wiki, please let me know if it's acurate and I understood the result of this discussion correctly.
Thank you!
Vlad |
|
|
Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
|
Posted - May 29 2008 : 10:44:13 PM
|
| oh boy, Bill, another can of worms ... I guess the search continues... |
|
|
Juhani Halmeenmaki
cedricfan
Finland
1020 Posts
My Collection
|
Posted - May 29 2008 : 11:11:34 PM
|
And this is why I have not yet tried to get me a Berdsk, as it would propably not be one...
Smena rules |
|
|
James McGee
James McGee
Azerbaijan
192 Posts |
Posted - May 29 2008 : 11:53:55 PM
|
Hello everyone,
Apologies for my recent absence, I've been stuck out in the wilder parts of Azerbaijan for the past couple of weeks and out of touch. I am now just catching up with all the latest posts.
This subject of the so called "Fed Berdsk" (or Fed 1e)is fascinating. Of course this was an extremely turbulent and difficult time in the history of Fed, and perhaps we can never know the real facts.
I have only one Fed 1e "Berdsk" in my collection. If I remember correctly the serial number begins 174XXX, (I will check when I am back in the UK towards the end of June and enter it into the Wiki).
The main point I want to make is that in addition to the unique engraving on the Fed 1e as opposed to all other Fed 1's my particular "Berdsk" has no visible screws in the baseplate. As far as I know this peculiarity applies only to the Fed 1 e. It would be interesting to know how many or what percentage of the "Berdsk's" from our own collections have this physical difference to other types of the Fed 1. Perhaps this information can be of help in pieceing together this mysterious period in the history of Fed.
Cheers, Jim |
|
|
Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
|
Posted - May 29 2008 : 11:54:39 PM
|
| Yes, and to re-answer Steve's question I guess, no Steve, this camera was NOT made in Siberia according to Jacques' and Bill's research I guess but is classified as Berdsk . So it's authentic, it's a Berdsk but not true Berdsk... |
|
|
Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
|
Posted - May 29 2008 : 11:57:45 PM
|
Good to have you back Jim!
For the uneducated like myself here, what exactly is the baseplate? The bottom plate? and no visible screws you mean no screws? or sunk screws? |
|
|
James McGee
James McGee
Azerbaijan
192 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2008 : 01:09:23 AM
|
Hello again,
Juhani, I disagree with your comment,
"And this is why I have not yet tried to get me a Berdsk, as it would propably not be one..."
My point is that the so called "Berdsk" is a type of Fed 1, (Fed 1 e) in it's own right regardless of where it was put together. Maybe it was assembled in Berdsk, maybe it wasn't, and perhaps we will never know.
Nevertheless through this unique Forum and the information that we exchange with each other we are constantly gaining more information about many Soviet cameras, not just the Fed 1 of course, but all Soviet cameras and equipment.
Like many of us collectors who take part in this forum, the Fed 1 to my mind is a very special camera, and the Fed 1 e is especially interesting in as much as the parts must have been manufactured in mid 1941, (just before the move to Berdsk)and that period was withoubt doubt extremely traumatic for the Fed workers and their families especially knowing that the German army were advancing and that soon Kharkov would be in enemy hands.
So to me my "Fed 1 e" counts a valued camera in my collection. Each time I look at it I think of the suffering that those Fed workers must have endured during those difficult times, yet they still continued to work even in the knowledge that they would soon be invaded by the enemy.
Of course will never solve all the mysteries of Fed, but through our exchanges, and the vast knowledge of our members we are constantly moving closer to a better understanding of these times in the history of the Soviet people themselves. How fascinating!!!!
Cheers and regards, Jim |
|
|
James McGee
James McGee
Azerbaijan
192 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2008 : 01:27:59 AM
|
Hi Vlad,
I don't have a Fed 1 to hand at the moment, but as far as I remember there are either two, or three countersunk screws visible on outside of the underside of the baseplate of every type of Fed 1 except for the Fed 1 e.(The baseplate meaning the removable bottom plate of the camera).
On The Fed 1 e that I have these screws are not visible, (The baseplate is "clean" apart from the thumb twist for baseplate removal) As far as I know this physical difference applies only to the fed 1 e "Berdsk". I wish I had the camera with me at the moment so that I could explain more fully, but perhaps Bill, or Jacques can clarify this point better than I am able.
Best regards, Jim |
|
|
James McGee
James McGee
Azerbaijan
192 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2008 : 02:59:36 AM
|
Vlad, Hello again. I need to make a correction about what I said earlier regarding the baseplate screws on the Fed 1 as I may have mislead you. I had said that no screws were visible on the baseplate of a Fed 1 e, when in fact there will be three visible screws, (I had fogotten the screwed tripod mount) which is held by three visible screws.
Now that I remember, there are in fact five screws on the baseplate. Three holding the tripod mount, and two other screws about one and a half inches, or 4cm apart in the centre, and towards one edge of the baseplate. On some Fed 1e,"Berdsk" it is these two latter screws that are not visible.
As far as I can say, if you have doubts about about whether your camera is a "Fed 1 e Berdsk" and it doesn't have these two screws as on all your other Fed 1 cameras, then it is definately a "Berdsk". I hope that I have explained myself clearly this time, if not no doubt others can correct me.
Cheers, Jim. |
|
|
Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2008 : 04:02:52 AM
|
Hello,
Thanks, Bill for your confirmation.
But I wonder what "Lesopark" means? Has anybody an idea? Is it the general address for Fed factories? If we look at other passports(always in DVD collection), we only find "Lesopark 27" and "Lesopark 54". Are they units of productions, buildings? Perhaps the two...
So, as for me, I own two 1e which are probably from Berdsk (180971 for the S and 182912). To Jim: they both have their 5 screws on the baseplate.
If we try to summarize, we could say that:
-A part of the 1e were made in Kharkov, probably up to c. 180000 at least,
-Then the 1e were made in Berdsk (# c. 180000 to c. 184000), perhaps only till the end of 1942, according to Zoom.
-The production officially ceased and resumed in 1946 with the NKAP Red Flag, always in Berdsk. Maybe they were all made in Berdsk.
-The factory was restored in Kharkov and the post WW2 production begins with the new Fed 1f.
How does that sound ?(with many perhaps and maybe!)
What puzzles me a bit is that interruption in the serial numbers between c. 184000 and 200000. Possibly they started their new numeration to celebrate the new factory. But in that case, the NKAP would have been made entirelyin Kharkov... And the passport mentioned by Princelle says the contrary.
So we jump from a mystery to an other. We have lost about 16000 Fed. But did they ever exist? Has anybody seen them? Sherlock Holmes, help!
Amitiés. Jacques. |
Edited by - Jacques M. on May 30 2008 06:49:20 AM |
|
|
Zoom
596 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2008 : 07:26:49 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
But I wonder what "Lesopark" means?
A forest park. There: address.
Some time graduation:
30 December 1938 (SNK order) and 7 January 1939 (NKVD order) "kommuna" was reorganized to "kombinat" (industrial complex) leaded by NKVD (USSR). (SNK -- Sovet Narodnykh Komissarov -- the Government)
From 22 February 1941 (by SNK order) the FED plant was leaded by NKAP (aviation industry department).
From September to December 1941 -- the evacuation to Berdsk.
According the GKO order from 23.10.1942 all plant optical manufactory transferred to NKV.
In 1942 all FED electric drills manufactoring was transferred to Tushino, Moscow.
Labour Red Banner (Flag) order decorating -- 16 September 1945.
From 09.09.1946 -- the re-evacuation to Kharkov.
A recommencement -- up to 1948 year. |
|
|
Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2008 : 08:14:18 AM
|
Very precious for the history of Fed!
Many thanks, Zoom.
Jacques. |
|
|
Steve
Bull Halsey
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2008 : 6:08:54 PM
|
You see ?
This is why you should collect Leica's !! :-)
Made in Wetzlar almost forever. :-)
No brain drain. :-)
Steve :-) |
|
|
Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
|
Posted - May 30 2008 : 6:47:46 PM
|
Steve - LOL! For me it's not even a choice - money-wise it's either 270 Russian cameras or 3 Leicas. .
Jim, I will check my camera first opportunity I get, thank you for that bit of info.
One thing I've thought of I don't see why can't we start our own re-classification of some cameras here... I know it will get confusing if people go by JLP but do we have enough experts here to create our own system. One thing with print medium is once it's out, it's set in stone unless next edition comes out. And good thing about having a web site that we can easily change stuff right away.
Vlad
|
|
|
Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
|
Posted - May 30 2008 : 11:29:32 PM
|
Jim, I still have 5 visible screws on my 1e.. I don't think these screws mean much... they probably went away with them sometime in mid-production of 1e... My serial # is somewhere above in this forum thread.
Vlad. |
|
|
James McGee
James McGee
Azerbaijan
192 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2008 : 11:57:57 PM
|
Hi Vlad,
As far as I know, (and I could be wrong) if a Fed 1 has only three visible screws in the base, then it is definately a Fed 1 e, assuming that other parameters are correct, engraving, etc.
I assume that there are also quite a few of these cameras with five visible screws, so they are also genuine Fed 1 e, providing other criteria matches of course.
I really can't imagine that anybody would try to fake one of these cameras when could just as easily fake a "Red Flag" and ask a much higher price.
My particular Fed 1 e has only three visible screws in the base, and to be perfectly honest I would never have noticed but for reading about this in Princelle and later checking just out of interest and curiosity. JLP himself says that only some Fed 1 e camera baseplates show this difference, but he doesn't say how many.
Cheers,Jim.
|
|
|
Dayton nathandayton
USA
95 Posts
My Collection
|
Posted - May 31 2008 : 05:10:48 AM
|
You are all trying to make the FED factory fit the western mold. With distinct hard transitions at specific times!
It was more like: Well we still have parts so lets "waste not want not" and use them all before we change to the new design! Or, we already know how to meet production goals with this design! Lets not take a chance on missing the goals until we have to!
Let me give a concrete example. Final QC for the Pentacon Six was done at the camera shop not the factory in the DDR. When you bought one, the shop checked that it was fully functional in front of you before they sold it to you. Compare this to modern cameras where they hand you the box, batteries and say good bye. |
|
|
Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Jun 04 2008 : 09:12:25 AM
|
Hello,
I agree with you about that question of screws, Nathan. It was easy to mix bodies and baseplates at the factory and it is always the case now.
About the period 1941-46, there is another passport, always at DVD's, which is very interesting and puzzling. It is the one of a 1d, signed the 18/06/1941, serial number: 168018 for a "normal" 1d(non S). Previously, we had discussed of a 1eS # 180024, passport signed the 31/07/1941.
The substraction is easy: 12000 passports in 45 days, 270 passports in a day... It seems impossible, but we know absolutely nothing about the local and historical circumstances.
Or one of the passports is a fake, but I don't think so. And the 1S don't have a special range: they were always numbered amongst the regular NKVD.
Personally, I always think that our hypothesis (1e made in Kharkov till # c. 180000) is valid. The factory probably signed in a hurry the passports for all the finished cameras (perhaps even for non finished ones). But where did they go? Certainly, they were not sold. To the Red army, perhaps? To be sure, we should know the precise history of these last days...
Any idea about that period of history?
Amitiés. Jacques.
|
|
|
Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
|
Posted - Jun 09 2008 : 8:05:23 PM
|
One of the major obstacles in find out such things for Westerners is the knowledge of Russian language.. Well fortunately I don't have such impairment since it is my first language.. If someone like Alain can find out who the contact was that JLP talked to on FED factory and if there is a way to get in touch with someone who used to work there, I would be very happy to call them on the phone and interview them... I just need some leads.. maybe soon I will call FED factory itself and try to find out who may be the person who can help me about getting some information who is hopefully still alive..
Vlad |
|
|
James McGee
James McGee
Azerbaijan
192 Posts |
|
James McGee
James McGee
Azerbaijan
192 Posts |
Posted - Jun 14 2008 : 05:07:41 AM
|
BTW, In my earlier post regarding the three visible screws as opposed to five in the base plate of some FED Berdsk's perhaps I didn't explain as clearly as I might have.
As far as I can gather some Berdsk's have only three visible screws in the baseplate, and other Fed Berdsk's have five visible screws. The three visible screws applies only to the Fed Berdsk, and no other Fed-1, so if only three screws are visible, and other parameters are correct then I believe that the camera is without doubt a Berdsk.
Of course there are also some Fed Berdsk with five screws in the baseplate just as all other Fed-1's.
And just to confuse matters more, we don't even really know for sure if these cameras were ever assembled at Berdsk.
Will the Fed mystery ever end????
Regards, Jim
|
|
|
Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Jun 14 2008 : 06:53:40 AM
|
Hi Jim,
As for me, I hope it's a never ending story. It is why I collect these cameras!
Amitiés. Jacques. |
|
|
James McGee
James McGee
Azerbaijan
192 Posts |
Posted - Jun 14 2008 : 07:39:23 AM
|
Hi Jacques,
I couldn't agree more!
Regards, Jim |
|
|
Zoom
596 Posts |
Posted - Jun 15 2008 : 04:32:42 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by James McGee
Accordiing to the engraving and the serial number this should be a Berdsk!
"NKVD"?... Not made in Berdsk.
From February 1941 the FED plant was under heading by NKAP. |
|
|
James McGee
James McGee
Azerbaijan
192 Posts |
Posted - Jun 15 2008 : 05:13:18 AM
|
Hi Zoom,
I'm not quite sure what you mean, but the engraving on the camera that I referred to mentions neither "NKVD, or "NKAP".
I could be wrong, but as far as I am aware the engraving and the serial number of this camera means it is a so called Fed-1e "Berdsk"
If I have misunderstood your post please explain further.
Best wishes, Jim
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/Fed-174xxx.jpg
|
|
|
Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Jun 15 2008 : 11:12:27 AM
|
Hi Jim,
Zoom was referring to the title of the seller: "Fed NKVD". This # 174341 is not a NKVD, of course.
It is an "e", probably not "Berdsk"!
Amitiés. Jacques.
|
|
|
James McGee
James McGee
Azerbaijan
192 Posts |
Posted - Jun 15 2008 : 12:16:20 PM
|
Hi Jacques,
Thanks for the information, and forgive my ignorance of e-bay sellers. In fact I never looked at e-bay before joining this forum, and now I just made my first purchase, a FED lateral viewfinder.
With regard to the Fed-1e #174341, I bow to your supertor knowledge. I had assumed that it was probably a "Berdsk" because of the number and the engraving. Now that I check JLP he says that the Fed-1e "Berdsk" spans serial numbers 173600/174000, and #183000 upwards. So I suppose the serial number of 174341 is a little high.
Best wishes, Jim |
|
|
James McGee
James McGee
Azerbaijan
192 Posts |
Posted - Jun 15 2008 : 12:31:41 PM
|
Hello again Jacques,
I have just now checked the WIKI, and Fed-1e #174341 is actually entered there as a "Berdsk". In fact there are quite a lot of other cameras with much higher serial numbers also entered there.
Please let us know your thoughts.
Best wishes, Jim. |
|
|
Zoom
596 Posts |
Posted - Jun 15 2008 : 1:36:19 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
Zoom was referring to the title of the seller: "Fed NKVD".
Yes. (I have a problems with an eBay pages). |
|
|
Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Jun 15 2008 : 1:44:22 PM
|
Yes Jim.
No problem with JLP about 1e, with numbers from c. 173600 to 184000.
But in this very topic, we had too discussed about the town where they were made.
Can they all be named "Berdsk" if it appears that some of them were made in Kharkov, perhaps up to # c. 180000?
That is THE question! Not by Shakespeare!
Amitiés. Jacques.
|
Edited by - Jacques M. on Jun 15 2008 3:34:38 PM |
|
|
James McGee
James McGee
Azerbaijan
192 Posts |
Posted - Jun 15 2008 : 10:19:07 PM
|
Hi Jacques,
Once again I agree with what you say. I don't think anyone really knows how many Fed-1e were assembled in Berdsk, even if any were!!!
I think the term "Berdsk" has now just become a familiar name for the 1-e, pretty much in the same way that "Fedka" has become a familiar name for the early Fed-1.
These mysteries will keep us guessing for years come!
Best wishes, Jim. |
|
|
Niko80
Austria
174 Posts |
|
Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Aug 01 2013 : 08:48:15 AM
|
My 1e-s have five screws too.
So, we are not far from s/n 184000 now. Interesting...
The two consecutive serial numbers are interesting too. So it would be confirmed that the S-s were made in the normal production, "in the middle of" the other cameras. To be sure, we should have the s/n 174289 or 174292!... I personally have two cameras with consecutive numbers, an S and a NKVD c series.
Jacques. |
|
|
vittorio gabaglio
ricale
Italy
28 Posts |
Posted - Aug 01 2013 : 11:00:32 AM
|
I have 2 Fed 1e, all with 5 screws.
1e n. 174389
1eS n. 174836
Vittorio |
|
|
Niko80
Austria
174 Posts |
Posted - Aug 10 2013 : 6:08:52 PM
|
It would be interesting to know if the absence of the 2 screws is limited to a certain serial range. Please check your cameras.
Also, could you submit your lens numbers to the wiki?
I don't know if it may help but any further information on these cameras is helpful.
Check the engravings on the baseplate of this FED1e #179708:
http://www.fotoua.com/4colcam.php?seek2=34&seek1=28&usl=&usl1=&rd=4&st=7&collector=1&stat=
Could anyone translate what it says?
I read something about 41-45 which would suggest a post-war date, at least for the engraving.
Regards,
Christian |
|
|
Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
|
Posted - Aug 10 2013 : 9:42:24 PM
|
I have a FED-1e which also has the five screws. The lens that this camera came with is a FED 'STEMAR'No. 47, one of the original series or first version of the fake stereo lens. I have added it to the WIKI and I'm afraid I have messed up the nice columns by doing so. Of course this lens is not the original lens and so is meaningless to the lens numbers.
Regards, Bill
|
|
|
Niko80
Austria
174 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2013 : 3:30:23 PM
|
Thanks, Bill!
Please continue to submit more data, the wiki can easily be repaired, that's no problem.
Could anyone please transcribe the base-plate engravings I mentioned in the link above?
Regards,
Christian |
Edited by - Niko80 on Aug 11 2013 3:39:02 PM |
|
|
Christopher Sabine
ChrisS
Spain
29 Posts |
Posted - Aug 15 2013 : 10:38:54 PM
|
I have 2 Fed-1e, both with 5 screws in the base plate.
s/n 175475 lens 174208/14
s/n 183885 lens 180983/2 12
I find this Berdsk question very interesting - to me it gives real character to the cameras. In my opinion the question of what was made where is almost insoluble (I say almost - we may yet!) for a number of reasons.
1 - I would expect that any unused Kharkov passports would be used up in Berdsk before printing new Berdsk ones, assuming they took the passports to Berdsk - they may have destroyed them before the evacuation, or left them behind.
2 - We do not know that the date of the 'S' s/n 180024 is the real date - the evacuation was a big upheaval and they may have just completed a whole bunch of passports for all completed or near completed cameras at any time prior to or after the evacuation - I am very suspicious of passport dates at the best of times, my guess is they were probably done in batches pretty much as and when.
3 - The Red Flag cameras were a new build (completely different vulcanite amongst other things) and may have been produced at Berdsk - but the Berdsk passport for one of them I would discount for the same reasons as 1 above, ie they would use up the Berdsk ones before printing more Kharkov ones after the return. Could the Red Flags have been produced at the KMZ factory? It seems rather unlikely they would set up a complete production line with new parts just to make the Red Flags when they would soon be returning to Kharkov.
My two Fed-1e are absolutely identical, and I also have a very late 1d s/n 173012 which is also identical apart from the engraving. I would say that both my 1e are made from the same parts as the 1d, which would probably mean that all 3 used parts made at Kharkov before the evacuation. It is interesting that no 183885 still seems to use Kharkov parts and it is the second highest s/n recorded for a 1e.
I did a bit of passport research a while ago (I can't find my records at the moment) but I remember being highly sceptical about that date for 180024. I do not think that we will ever be able to say which cameras were assembled in Berdsk without further documentary evidence. We need many more passports from this period - not very likely, although they must have produced something at Berdsk otherwise there would be no need for a Berdsk passport. Too many imponderables to be sure of anything, but it's fun trying.
ATB ChrisS. |
|
|
Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
|
Posted - Aug 16 2013 : 10:08:12 AM
|
Hello Christopher,
I'm sorry I have to warn everyone it's just my subjective opinion, this topic of Berdsk cameras bothers me a lot and I've been doing a lot of thinking regarding these cameras and reading about the WWII period in Soviet Union. The more I read about how things were during the war the more I am beginning to think that this camera was manufactured in Kharkov either before and or after the move to Berdsk or both, since it doesn't seem likely during those hard times in extreme shortages of military equipment and ammunition when all the factories retooled to manufacture production for war, the Berdsk factory went through all the trouble to keep making civilian cameras that the war could easily do without... it's just not very probable, almost unrealistic when you have all women and children working 24/7 making tank parts, shells, bomb, grenades, bullets everywhere in USSR, you have all of the sudden FED cameras made..
Your opinions are welcome.
Cheers,
Vlad |
|
|
Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
|
Posted - Aug 16 2013 : 12:11:55 PM
|
Hi Vlad,
I agree with you 100%. There is really no indication anywhere that any parts were made at Berdsk, and in my opinion, there was probably the assembly of parts that already existed, brought along from the evacuation at Kharkov.
The mysteries behind undocumented or lost histories concerning the Soviet cameras are intriguing, but collectors do have a tendency not to always understand and put themselves in the place and time and imagine (or learn through reading, etc. as you are doing, Vlad) what was really going on. This was a very hard and tragic time for the Russian people in general.
Very well said, Vlad.
Regards, Bill
|
|
|
Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
|
Posted - Aug 16 2013 : 1:51:12 PM
|
Thank you Bill for supporting my line of thought, and that's exactly what we can do is recreate the situation to the best of our knowledge but I know that I can't probably even imagine the harsh reality. One other thing I was thinking too that it was probably a very different factory also once it moved to Berdsk since most likely most of the boys (I'm sure girls too) working in the commune were called up to serve in the war, so production of FED was probably mostly taken over by local Berdsk population, losing the camera works expertise in the process.. once again just speculation for discussion's sake..
Also I found an article where one collector claims that BRZ (Berdsk Mechanical Factory) was the factory that accepted FED in Berdsk during evacuation and that 500-1000 FED Berdsk were made there as well as FED-B - a Leica III copy, but the journalist writing the article didn't find any examples of the Berdsk war-time made cameras in the local museum. Here's an auto-translated fragment of the article:
Publisher of the "Wedge" Vadim Komarov collects cameras. An online auction "Molotok" he bought the camera "FED-B", made in the walls of Berdsk radio factory during World War II. Until 1941, the production of cameras has been established at the Kharkov plant, which at the beginning of the war were evacuated to Berdsk. It was believed that the production of cameras stopped. However, Vadim Komarov says that in 1941-1942 the plant produced 800-1000 cameras. According to some reports, beginning in Berdsk produced model "B" - a copy of the camera «Leica III», which adds long-term exposure.
Abbreviation FED means Felix Dzerzhinsky. The first models were produced in 1934. At the end of the 30s produced the so-called second model, it "FED-C" or "commander FED", which was supplied with the lens "FED" 2/50, the shutter speed range has been increased - added shutter speed 1/1000 sec. C 1938 to 1941 produced a modification "FED-B" or "the general's FED", with extended excerpts from 1 sec to 1/1000 sec.
In Berdsk Historical Museum of Art no models were found made in Berdsk during the war. Chief curator of funds Tatiana Ovchinnikov stressed that the special value of the fund collection are "FED" and "press photographer" pre-war years. One of the exhibits found in the garage, took out one berdchaninu inherited. He was there collecting dust forgotten by all. The most surprising is that the camera is a mechanism that allows you to stretch, like a concertina mechanism. Thus conducted focus is activated. "Fotokor-1" was produced from 1930 to 1941. These cameras have become the primary means of shooting by courtesy of the Great Patriotic War.
http://www.kurer-sreda.ru/2012/04/11/64256
|
|
|
Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
|
Posted - Aug 16 2013 : 1:58:59 PM
|
Another fragment from a different article:
С началом Великой Отечественной войны, летом 1941 года в город Бердск было эвакуировано два завода из Бердянска и Харькова выпускавшие до этого знаменитые фотоаппараты ''ФЭД'' (завод им. Дзержинского) и комплектующие. В Бердске, на базе этих заводов было организовано производство топливных агрегатов для двигателей истребителей
ИЛ-2 и оптических прицелов для танков Т-34 и военных самолетов. В 1946 году завод имени Дзержинского был реэвакуирован, а на базе оставшегося завода, на освободивших-
ся площадях, решением правительством СССР от 10 октября 1946 года был организован радиозавод.
Since the beginning of the Great Patriotic War, in the summer of 1941 in the city Berdsk two factories were evacuated from Berdyansk and Kharkov produced before the famous'' cameras FED'' (Plant. Dzerzhinsky), and accessories. In Berdsk and on the basis of these plants was organized by the production of fuel assemblies for engine fighter
IL-2 and optical sights for T-34 tanks and military aircraft. In 1946, the plant was named after Dzerzhinsky unevacuated, and on the basis of the remaining plant, freed-up areas, the decision by the Government of the USSR on October 10, 1946 was organized into Radio Works.
http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/28/162
|
|
|
Niko80
Austria
174 Posts |
Posted - Aug 16 2013 : 3:57:03 PM
|
The way I see it we have absolutely no proof that even a single camera was produced in Berdsk.
This is why I have renamed the corresponding wiki entry to "FED 1e"
I have to agree with Vlad, I am sure there were other priorities than producing cameras back then.
However, as the factory in Berdsk never suffered from war-time damage, the probability that some documents survived should be much higher than in the case of the Kharkov factory. If we could establish a contact to someone from the Berdsk Museum maybe they could have a look at the city archives to see if some documents have survived.
By the way - has anyone ever tried to contact someone from the modern FED-Factory? I don't know how much interest the company has in their own history but it wouldn't be surprising if they do know a lot more than we do.
Chris, I have added the lens numbers of your cameras to the wiki, I hope you don't mind.
Regards,
Christian
|
Edited by - Niko80 on Aug 16 2013 3:59:25 PM |
|
|
Geoff O.
geoffox23
Australia
54 Posts |
Posted - Aug 16 2013 : 5:04:33 PM
|
Hello all
Pages 379 and 380 in the 1200 Cameras book refer to this topic, with some specific time frames and numbers quoted, so I assume that the authors should be able to provide some references.
I cannot trust my google-translated pages to be correct, so would be interested to hear others' thoughts on this data.
Cheers
Geoff |
|
|
Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
|
Posted - Aug 17 2013 : 10:23:21 AM
|
Thanks Geoff for the reference, I looked up those paragraphs and here's that Suglob/Kochergin/Shaternik say on this topic (summarizing): From February to October 1942 the assembly of cameras continues in Berdsk. Supposedly Berdsk cameras started somewhere after No. 165xxx until 173xxx in quantities of 8000 units. In 1943 the kombinat moved under NKAP-SSSP (People's Commissariat of Aviation Manufacture) umbrella raher than NKVD-SSSR and was renamed into "Zavod"(factory), and cameras made from 1946 in Berdsk had engraving "...Zavod of F.E.Dzerzhinsky".
Cheers,
Vlad |
|
|
Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
|
Posted - Aug 17 2013 : 10:33:33 AM
|
Also an interesting classification extract from 1200 Cameras book - FED NKAP (Red Flag) is technically FED-1f and not the encircled FED logo one, because it's the next one in the line that was released after the "Berdsk" when factory returned to Kharkov and made 1800 red flags..
Cheers,
Vlad |
|
|
David Tomlinson
RCCCUK
United Kingdom
208 Posts |
Posted - Aug 17 2013 : 11:20:31 AM
|
I thought you might be interested in this photograph from the book, 'On the Wings of History - 75 Years of the FED Factory 1927-2002'.
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1782013_fed photo.jpg
I believe that the caption reads, ' Assembling the first postwar FED cameras. Berdsk, February 1946'.
David. |
|
|
Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
|
Posted - Aug 17 2013 : 11:29:23 AM
|
Now THAT is the first more or less concrete document we see. Thank you David!
Best regards,
Vlad |
|
|
Niko80
Austria
174 Posts |
Posted - Aug 17 2013 : 6:04:09 PM
|
Nice!
Too bad we can't see what type of FED1 is shown in the photo.
As for the comments in the "1200 Cameras" book, this would mean that the cameras produced at Berdsk would actually have been late FED"d" CCCP-NKVD and all FED 1 "e" were produced after the war.
I am confused...
Are there any references cited?
Also I'd like to point out that I am now the owner of the FED"e" #180024 with the corresponding documents. If there is any information I can provide just let me know.
Regards,
Christian |
|
|
Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
|
Posted - Aug 17 2013 : 6:20:41 PM
|
Nice photo David. I think it may read "Assembly of the first postwar cameras, FED" and so not exactly meaning that it is a photo of the 'assembling' of the cameras, but that it is a photo of the first group of postwar cameras. But, no doubt at Berdsk, if the caption is correct. These guys don't look like the people who do the assembly work, but more like the bosses or executives at the factory who are showing a group of their first post-war production. I suspect that Vlad is correct and that although the manufactured parts were evacuated from Kharkov to Berdsk early in the war, they probably sat around through most of the war, and then camera production (from the Kharkov-made parts) was started again after the war, and the first cameras made were at Berdsk where the parts were located. so, they had the pre-war FED-1e logo on them since that is how the rangefinder housings were engraved while still in Kharkov in the early 1940's.
They look quite pleased to have FED cameras being produced again, no doubt a difficult task as many of the skilled assemblers before the war, had been killed or otherwise not able to work for FED from the results of the war.
Regards, Bill
|
|
|
Lenny
496 Posts |
|
Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Aug 18 2013 : 08:20:22 AM
|
I have not opened the forum since some days, and all is running away!
So, just some "technical" ideas: it really seems to me that the separation due to the war passes between 1e-s and NKAP.
There is no distinction between the second series of 1d-s and 1e-s: all is the same, including the quality of construction.
NKAP-s show some differences, for what we know: generally poor quality of chrome, stretched vulcanite, 1a or 1b buttons, yellow pale/yellow rangefinder, 1d belt and 1c/1d brass shutter box... As if Fed had been obliged to make a series whereas it had not the convenient parts. It makes me think of remaining parts in boards which are assembled in urgency...
The metallurgy of the cover is not always the same. Some have neat angles (like on the 1d or 1e), others are blunt. And many have traces of a vice (probably to hold it when engraving). So, a variability which does not help to know the genuineness... Mine looks genuine, but two letters are not engraved on the cover...
The first 1f are in the continuity of these NKAP-s concerning the general poor quality and the special vulcanite, for example. And as they are very rare, one can wonder if all the series was really made... As for the brass shutter box, we find it up to the s/n around 225000(the aluminium ones were the rule between c. 115000/183000: no shortage of aluminium before the war).
I don't know Soviet history enough to go farther. The logic would be that all the 1e were made before the war, and NKAP after. Or the last part of 1e mounted at KMZ's as training before the official production: surely impossible, even if the comparison between a 1948 Fed-Zorki and a 1e is astonishing: they look like twins...
Anyway, happy of the new turn for this topic!
Amitiés. Jacques.
|
Edited by - Jacques M. on Aug 18 2013 08:22:31 AM |
|
|
Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - Aug 18 2013 : 08:38:20 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by James McGee
As far as I can gather some Berdsk's have only three visible screws in the baseplate, and other Fed Berdsk's have five visible screws. The three visible screws applies only to the Fed Berdsk, and no other Fed-1, so if only three screws are visible, and other parameters are correct then I believe that the camera is without doubt a Berdsk.
The bottom plate is the easiest thing to change on a camera.
Fotoua.com has the Zorki-1 with simplified bottom plate (plate with 3 screws) listed around s/n #51000, but there are many many other Zorkis far behind #51000 with 5 instead 3 screws.
If you call a Fed with 3 screws "Berdsk", I call them "Zorki". |
|
|
Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Aug 18 2013 : 11:14:07 AM
|
In the JLP, it is said that the NKAP s/n 201280 was delivered with a passport printed at Berdsk, signed the 19 of august 1946...
Would it be impossible that the NKAP were in fact the real Berdsk? It's only an idea, probably crazy...
Jacques. |
|
|
David Tomlinson
RCCCUK
United Kingdom
208 Posts |
Posted - Aug 19 2013 : 10:47:06 AM
|
Having found the photograph above, I thought it might be a good idea to try and translate the accompanying pages. It is taking quite some time, using Google translate, but here is the first part:
'Back in May 1945 the administration decided to restore the production of cameras. The case seemed extremely difficult and almost hopeless. There were many reasons. 'Debugged' production was transferred to Krasnogorsk in late 1942. Special equipment, technology, materials, work in progress and most importantly, most of the optical experts and highly skilled workers were sent to the new location. By 1945, in Krasnogorsk, they had already organised work and started production of cameras. The design of the cameras was as the FED. The anecdotal version of the fist KMZ camera was called FED-Zorki. It was only in 1949, after a number of design changes and modernisation that the small format camera, FED, got its own name, Zorki. A large contribution of the creation of the camera came from the engineers and technicians of the Kharkov plant, M V Strelitsov, A R Trirog, M W Ulanovski and others. Government decision on restoring camera production at plant No. 296 FED was issued in June 1945. However, to organise production in a short time was not possible. We had to start from scratch. Firstly, we needed technical documentation. In July and August drawings were ready. We had to spend a lot of work on pre-production: restore the technical processes to produce tooling and special cutting and measuring instruments. All this, as well as being in the war years was required in a short time. Changes were made in the production structure. In January 1946 workshops 18 and 49 fabricated parts and assemblies of the first post-war camera. For the production of optical lenses there was a special section in workshop 17. At the same time, workshop 23 started to work as an assembly plant. In the fist ten days of February they completed ten cameras. Tests showed good results. We had every reason to believe that the design and fabrication of parts and components met our technical requirements. From the prototypes we went on to serial production. This required additional production capacity and there was not enough. Output as always I such situations required more hard work. The task of making the camera parts got under way. In the production plan of the second quarter of 1946 a small quantity was scheduled, but the task was not easy. To increase quality requirements special equipment, not standard machines, were needed and also skilled workers were required.'
Maybe this poses rather more questions than it answers. When I get the time, I will translate a little more.
David. |
Edited by - RCCCUK on Aug 19 2013 10:49:02 AM |
|
|
Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Aug 19 2013 : 11:44:00 AM
|
Many thanks, David, for the photo and for the translation!
If I understand well, Fed equipment and technology were transferred to Krasnogorsk in 1942. Till now, that fact had not been said clearly. Or I did not know... Anyway, to find identical shutter boxes on Fed 1d/e and 1948 Fed-Zorki is not a hazard...
Really interested too by what is said to resume the production (at Fed-Kharkov, I suppose?) and by the dates. They did not say which cameras were made first, alas... Do we have a way to find that?
Jacques. |
Edited by - Jacques M. on Aug 19 2013 1:36:09 PM |
|
|
Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
|
Posted - Aug 19 2013 : 1:57:41 PM
|
David, thank you for the translation, if you don't mind please post the original Russian text as well, very often Google translates different language nuances differently which can mean something opposite. Thanks again,
Vlad. |
|
|
David Tomlinson
RCCCUK
United Kingdom
208 Posts |
|
Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
|
Posted - Aug 20 2013 : 09:38:24 AM
|
Thank you very much, David, your translation is pretty much spot-on. Here are the main points we get from this:
- No camera producing equipment was moved to Berdsk
- All equipment and most of the specialist staff was moved to KMZ resulting in FED-Zorkis
- No cameras were produced during the War
- Camera production in Berdsk only started in Jan 1946
- Camera produciton equipment had to be reconstructed from scratch in Berdsk plant
- Berdsk plant supposedly made cameras full throttle (at 79.1% capacity due to substandard equipment) up until unevacuation in October 1946(?).
Questions that still loom:
- Which exact cameras were these? FED-1e's or NKAP?
- I'm personally still unclear regarding timeline of the renaming of FED into "Zavod of F.E.Dzerzhinsky", according to Suglob/Shaternik this happened in 1943 which does put FED-1e under the 1946 production timeline rather than NKAP.. lots of conflicting information
|
|
|
Niko80
Austria
174 Posts |
Posted - Aug 20 2013 : 6:58:17 PM
|
Thank you for summarizing the interesting facts, Vlad!
If it's true that camera producing equipment at Berdsk was different from the one used in Kharkov, it seems unlikely to me that some 1e were produced in Kharkov and some in Berdsk, as all 1e cameras look pretty much the same.
If we trust the passports we have which show 1e were made in Kharkov before the war and NKAP in Berdsk after the war I'll vote for the NKAP as these cameras look significantly different.
Is it likely that about 2000 cameras could be produced in Berdsk in the timeframe of 8-10 months?
Also I am a little confused - if neither machinery nor personnel were evacuated to Berdsk, then what else?
Regards,
Christian |
|
|
Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Aug 21 2013 : 03:04:45 AM
|
Vlad,
Fed was given the Red Flag award the 6th of september 1945, by the JLP. It would be logical that a limited series of NKAP-s were made immediately. No problem if it is with spare parts, Christian. So, a passport of august 1946 seems correct.
On the other hand, the same JLP says that NKAP-s were made in 1948...
A specialist of this period should be of great use to compare History and what we know... Perhaps Zoom could help ?
Amitiés. Jacques.
|
|
|
David Tomlinson
RCCCUK
United Kingdom
208 Posts |
Posted - Aug 22 2013 : 02:47:42 AM
|
I am of the opinion that FED NKAP cameras were produced at Berdsk. After all, the Berdsk factory was definitely designated as an NKAP facility.
Does anyone have a passport for a 1e FED that definitely shows that it was manufactured in Berdsk? If equipment, personnel and parts were evacuated to Krasnogork, could it be that in the run up to the FED-Zorki production in 1948 that the FED 1e was assembled there? After all, the FED book states the Krasnogork had started production in 1945.
David. |
|
|
Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Aug 22 2013 : 5:09:57 PM
|
Thanks, David. I completely agree with you.
Jacques. |
|
|
Niko80
Austria
174 Posts |
Posted - Sep 16 2013 : 7:25:12 PM
|
I've updated and extended the FED1'e' wiki article, please tell me what you think!
Also have a look on the commemorative engraving on the base-plate of #179708
I read - or rather guess:
In commemoration of the war
41-45
from B/r 16501
Temniky
B. i.
The first 2 lines are self-explaining and mean the engraving must have been done after 1945.
But what about the rest? Can anyone make sense of the abbreviations B/r and number 16501?
I guess last 2 lines mean the camera was presented to someone named B. I. Temnik.
Regards,
Christian |
|
|
Niko80
Austria
174 Posts |
Posted - Oct 08 2013 : 2:58:06 PM
|
| No one? |
|
|
Yuri Boguslavsky
fedka
USA
240 Posts
My Collection
|
Posted - Oct 12 2013 : 10:46:35 PM
|
<<B/r and number 16501?>>
That is for Russian V/Ch, Voinskaya Chast', or Military Base, 16501 is the base's number.
|
|
|
Niko80
Austria
174 Posts |
Posted - Oct 13 2013 : 3:31:00 PM
|
Awesome, thank you Yuri!
The US Defense Technical Information Center states:
Voinskaya chast' [military unit] — is an organizationally self-sufficient tactical and administrative entity, in all services of the Armed Forces, maintained in accordance with an established shtat [Table of Organization and Equipment]. Voinskaya chast' applies to all regiments, ships of 1st, 2nd, 3rd rank, separate battalions (artillery battalions and air squadrons) not part of a regiment, and even separate companies not part of a battalion and regiment. The term "voinskaya chast'" is used when the actual name of a unit, which consists of its given number, shtat designation (if one is given), and names of its state awards (if the unit has been awarded state decorations), is implied.
Voyskovaya chast' [military unit] — is a conditional, numerical designation of military units (ships), formations and establishments of the Soviet Army, Navy, USSR MVD forces, and border guards of the USSR Committee of State Security.
It is its official designation and has legal force attached to the registering of official documentation. The term "voyskovaya chast'" is used in mutual relations of units and establishments between themselves, with civil departments, organizations, enterprises and private citizens, and even for addressing and sending of all sorts of correspondence and military goods. Units and establishments of the Soviet Army and Navy stationed in the territory of the USSR have a conditional designation "voyskovaya chast'", and those stationed out- side the USSR, "voyskovaya chast'—polevaya pochta [field post office]".
So this would mean that voinskaya chast can be any sort of military unit. I wonder if it would be possible to link the number to a certain unit.
Regards,
Christian
|
Edited by - Niko80 on Oct 13 2013 4:23:00 PM |
|
|
Yuri Boguslavsky
fedka
USA
240 Posts
My Collection
|
Posted - Oct 13 2013 : 9:24:08 PM
|
In theory it would be possible to find out the V/Ch location by number. Locations and numbers were classified in the Soviet times, but with so much time passed, this info should be open. 'Should be' is my opinion.
This organization most likely has your answer, and they do have an English web site
http://eng.mil.ru/en/archival_service/central.htm
|
|
|
Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - Apr 12 2016 : 07:28:36 AM
|
We know the passport of #180024, dated 31/July/1941, long time after the war started on 22/June/1941. The battle of Kiev was from 23/August/1941 till 26/September/1941. It's amazing that they were still producing cameras at the end of July. To write a passport and sign it just takes a minute. It doesn't make sense to write a passport in advance because once you want to package the camera you need to search for the passport. I think it's safe to assume that #180024 was packaged on 31/July/1941, a Thursday.
It is mentioned that A.Braslavskiy has another passport of #175116 from summer 1941. It would be interesting to know the real date because we could calculate how long it took to produce nearly 5000 cameras, and we could calculate how many days it would take to produce the rest of the known Fed-1e. Is #183892 the highest known serial for a Fed-1e?
After the war the last samples of Fed-1e might be assembled and the Red Flag too. Photohistory.ru mentioned that 1316 cameras were produced in 1948. Since the passport of #201280 is from 19/August/1946, those 1316 cameras can't be all Red Flags. The first Fed-1f might have been produced in 1948. |
|
|
levonsa
levonsa
Russia
248 Posts |
Posted - Apr 17 2016 : 4:24:04 PM
|
| FED #210033 was made 10 july 1948. Coll. D.Bessonov |
|
|
Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - Apr 17 2016 : 5:48:59 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by levonsa
FED #210033 was made 10 july 1948. Coll. D.Bessonov
That's interesting.
So Fed produced Fed-Zorkis with 1/1000 speed together with KMZ in Krasnogorsk
and at the same time produced Fed-1f with 1/500 speed in Kharkov.
|
|
|
Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Apr 18 2016 : 05:17:00 AM
|
Thanks, Alexey.
Could you give too the address of the passport?
I suppose that this very early Fed 1f has a special vulcanite?
Amitiés. Jacques. |
|
|
levonsa
levonsa
Russia
248 Posts |
Posted - Apr 20 2016 : 3:30:31 PM
|
| I will ask permission from the owner to publish his picture. |
|
|
levonsa
levonsa
Russia
248 Posts |
|
Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - Apr 23 2016 : 12:58:59 AM
|
Thank you very much Alexey,
FED made some ugly cases at that time.
Very sad that the vulcanite got painted.
I can't read the address, but it seems to be the new location. |
|
|
Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Apr 23 2016 : 03:44:35 AM
|
Thanks a lot, Alexey!
A beautiful 1f, probably one of the first. I wonder if the official numbers don't begin with 210000, even if we find some 1f between 201800 and 210000, perhaps to fool the Plan!
This one has that ultra rare vulcanite. Some of the others have a Red Flag's one, with stretched stripes... My s/n 210921 is already completely regular.
Could somebody translate the location of the factory, so that we can make comparisons with the pre war ones?
Thanks again. Amitiés. Jacques. |
|
|
Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
|
Posted - Apr 23 2016 : 10:22:54 AM
|
| Alexey, very interesting example, thanks for posting! Jacques, the address on this passport on the bottom now is simply - City of Kharkov, FED, Marketing Department. |
|
|
Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Apr 26 2016 : 07:38:12 AM
|
Thanks, Vlad. So, we don't know more about that question of location.
The passport of this very camera is coherent with the JLP which mentions that "the first 20 new Kharkov Feds were made in june 1948".
But the series begun with the s/n 210000...
Amitiés. Jacques. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Fed Berdsk - Known Examples
