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Alfa2
Poland
349 Posts |
 Posted - Apr 07 2016 : 2:46:00 PM
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Usually I don't buy compilation of cameras. But this time I made an exception.
This what in not on photos is lens number: 15541.
Interesting camera, insn't it ?
(If I placed photos wrong way pls write me how to correct them)
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Edited by - Alfa2 on Apr 07 2016 2:49:08 PM |
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4251 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Apr 07 2016 : 4:26:02 PM
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Hi,
It looks like a regular FED 1e just has a strange speed dial that does look like it's from FED-Zorki... |
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Jacques M.
France
2599 Posts |
Posted - Apr 08 2016 : 03:19:28 AM
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A very interesting camera, for sure!
The mechanism certainly belongs to a Zorki, with that crisp paint and the shape of the lock. Idem for the frame counter. The speed dial is a Fed-Zorki's, as Vlad said.
The cover is strange. At first sight, it's a good old Fed 1e's. But I wonder: the chrome is really very smooth. The serial number is regular for a 1e, but the ciphers are really smaller than the original ones.
So, an exciting camera, Alfa!
BTW: what's the shape of the rangefinder? Fed's or Zorki's?
Jacques.
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - Apr 08 2016 : 06:17:57 AM
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Seems to be a Zorki-1b with a re-engraved top plate. The serial number should be much wider. The vulcanite could be Zorki too.
I'm sure you would prefer a real Fed-1e. But still, the engraving looks really nice, maybe even better than the real one.
Jacques, I checked the wiki and saw you have 5 1e. Are the engravings of those 5 all placed the same, or are some placed more to the front side?
By the way, I rearranged the wiki, much easier now to read and edit. |
Edited by - Lenny on Apr 08 2016 06:37:03 AM |
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Jacques M.
France
2599 Posts |
Posted - Apr 08 2016 : 07:09:19 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lenny
Jacques, I checked the wiki and saw you have 5 1e. Are the engravings of those 5 all placed the same, or are some placed more to the front side?
Four only, Lenny. That's enough! I will correct that...
Right about the position of the text. Its position can slightly vary: front or back, but right or left too. No more than 1mm or so, I think. As if the stencil-plate was not always in the same position. |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - Apr 08 2016 : 07:26:20 AM
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Thanks Jacques,
please keep them in the wiki, you don't need to change the name. |
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Alfa2
Poland
349 Posts |
Posted - Apr 10 2016 : 2:11:53 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
BTW: what's the shape of the rangefinder? Fed's or Zorki's?
I haven't removed top plate but I have 2 new photos which may answer some questions.
On 2nd photo:
- on top Zorki No. 10321
- bottom our strange FED
On my eye, strange FED looks like FED-Zorki but upper plate is replaced with this strange one, bottom plate is replaced with plate from FED (engravings tells it is from FED), lens in from early FED NKVD.
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Edited by - Alfa2 on Apr 10 2016 2:13:08 PM |
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Jacques M.
France
2599 Posts |
Posted - Apr 11 2016 : 10:38:42 AM
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Fine Zorki 1a/1b, s/n 10321...
About your "special" Fed 1e, it's difficult to say. The base of the camera could be a 1a/1b, with the crisp paint, the four nut bolts (to regulate the shutters) and the speed dial.
As for the release button, there is a gradual changing between s/n 9000 and 10600. Always Fed-Zorki type before, Zorki one after, and mixed between the two. As far as I know! Yours is a Zorki one.
For the cover, nothing is clear. The chrome is finer than a Fed 1e's. The general shape is correct, and the engraving too, except for the number. If it's good for a 1e, the ciphers are too small and not in a correct position. For example, have a look at http://ussrphoto.com/Wiki/default.asp?WikiCatID=98&ParentID=1&ContentID=962&Item=FED+1d . It's a 1d, but the ciphers are the same on a 1e.
I think of a Zorki 1a/1b, with a correct Fed 1e cover which could have been rechromed and engraved with the actual serial number. A training at KMZ's?  Who knows...
Amitiés. Jacques.
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - Apr 12 2016 : 07:51:53 AM
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The top plate is from a much later camera. It can be seen on the left side of the plate, earlier plates doesn't have this shape.
These comparison photos side by side are really helpful. It can be seen that the top plate of the 'Fed' is so flat on the top while the Zorki is much more round and doesn't have these edges.
But still, I like the engraving as a Fed-1e and it looks good with this type of chrome. |
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Jacques M.
France
2599 Posts |
Posted - Apr 12 2016 : 10:25:09 AM
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No doubt, Lenny, you are right: the cover was completely reingraved. There are some very tiny details in the lettering which are different from a genuine 1e, when looked with a magnifyer.
So, I fear you have a Zorki 1a/1b without any Fed part, Alfa. Unless the baseplate which you speak of?
Amitiés. Jacques.
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Edited by - Jacques M. on Apr 12 2016 10:26:40 AM |
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Jacques M.
France
2599 Posts |
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Alfa2
Poland
349 Posts |
Posted - Apr 14 2016 : 03:08:18 AM
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Thank You very much.
You are absolutely right. Top plate of my "Fed" is a fake.
And many thanks for photo of top plate of FED 183231. It is really interesting especaily this "B".
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - Apr 14 2016 : 03:35:40 AM
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| Interesting serial #183231, Jacques. According to Princelle, Fed started evacuating the factory on September 5th. We know the passport of #180024 made on 31/07/1941. Could #183231 still be produced in Kharkov? 3207 cameras within 5 weeks? That are 33333 cameras per year. We also know passport #136157 made on 20/08/1940. They produced over 44.000 cameras in the last 12 months. So #183231 should still be made in Kharkov. The question is if #183231 is real. The left side looks very round and it seems there is an edge in front of the shoe. I have doubts, hard to tell only from this photo. |
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Jacques M.
France
2599 Posts |
Posted - Apr 14 2016 : 10:11:38 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lenny
The question is if #183231 is real. The left side looks very round and it seems there is an edge in front of the shoe. I have doubts, hard to tell only from this photo.
I have another question. Could you produce a photo of one of your 1e-s, taken with the same angle of view, to support your doubts?
If not, I stop there. |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - Apr 14 2016 : 11:33:16 AM
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Jacques, I'm sorry. I didn't want to make you upset.
I don't have a 1e, but now that we should be more certain that nearly all 1e were produced in Kharkov and not Berdsk they should go down in price or at least should not increase in price, so maybe one day I might have one for reasonable money too. I really like the 1e engraving and Fed-1abcde engravings are very interesting, I'm studying them now and your remark about the 'B' was helpful. Thanks Jacques. I wish I could read more about these engravings.
Since these 1e and even some late 1d were once called Berdsk, they were a paradise for faker. So everytime I see a 1e I take a look closer if it could be a real one. It's also poor that there is only one picture in the wiki here and that one is from an bad angle. Someone should upload some pictures of a real 1e please. |
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Fred_L
France
226 Posts |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - Apr 15 2016 : 10:30:13 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Fred_L
Here is mine
It has the 1000/s position but it is not mentioned on speed selector..
Thanks Fred,
is your Fed still working? Do you notice any difference between 1/500 and the spot which could be 1/1000? Maybe very difficult to notice but if you shoot it whitout lens and you let light shine on the curtains, at 1/500 you should still see light mirroring in the pressure plate. Even if the pressure plate is not like a mirror you might see a difference.
Do you mind if we put your serials into the wiki, maybe even both photos? |
Edited by - Lenny on Apr 15 2016 10:33:45 AM |
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Jacques M.
France
2599 Posts |
Posted - Apr 15 2016 : 11:31:09 AM
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For cameras which are more than 70 years old, the 1/1000th is of course theorical.
But mechanically, it corresponds to a special notch. So, do you have 8 notches (Z to 1/500th) or 9 (Z to 1000th) when you cock and check the different speeds with the dial? |
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Fred_L
France
226 Posts |
Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 03:18:45 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lenny
quote:
Originally posted by Fred_L
Here is mine
It has the 1000/s position but it is not mentioned on speed selector..
Thanks Fred,
is your Fed still working? Do you notice any difference between 1/500 and the spot which could be 1/1000? Maybe very difficult to notice but if you shoot it whitout lens and you let light shine on the curtains, at 1/500 you should still see light mirroring in the pressure plate. Even if the pressure plate is not like a mirror you might see a difference.
Do you mind if we put your serials into the wiki, maybe even both photos?
Hi Lenny
No problem to put into the wiki, Thank you very much!!
Fred |
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Fred_L
France
226 Posts |
Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 03:20:01 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
For cameras which are more than 70 years old, the 1/1000th is of course theorical.
But mechanically, it corresponds to a special notch. So, do you have 8 notches (Z to 1/500th) or 9 (Z to 1000th) when you cock and check the different speeds with the dial?
Hi Jacques..
It has 9 notches.. I have verified
Fred |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 04:11:35 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Fred_L
No problem to put into the wiki, Thank you very much!!
Ok great, thanks Fred,
please tell us your lens serial. |
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Fred_L
France
226 Posts |
Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 06:06:30 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lenny
quote:
Originally posted by Fred_L
No problem to put into the wiki, Thank you very much!!
Ok great, thanks Fred,
please tell us your lens serial.
Ok Lenny
I'll try to make more pics too..
Fred |
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vittorio gabaglio
ricale
Italy
28 Posts |
Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 11:48:33 AM
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I also have a Fed NKVD with 1000/s position but not mentioned on speed selector..
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - Apr 16 2016 : 5:54:29 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ricale
I also have a Fed NKVD with 1000/s position but not mentioned on speed selector..
Thanks Vittorio,
do you think you have 1/1000 speed?
Or could it be that you have 2 slots with 1/500?
Is yours far away from #174456? |
Edited by - Lenny on Apr 16 2016 6:31:23 PM |
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vittorio gabaglio
ricale
Italy
28 Posts |
Posted - Apr 17 2016 : 05:12:25 AM
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| The number is 83059. The curtain is faster than 1/500. The number 1000 is engraved by hand |
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Fred_L
France
226 Posts |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - Apr 17 2016 : 11:21:59 AM
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Thanks Fred,
is there no number at the lock?
#6696 is a nice number because it can be read 9699 too. |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - Apr 17 2016 : 11:38:06 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by ricale
The number is 83059. The curtain is faster than 1/500. The number 1000 is engraved by hand
That's interesting Vittorio.
Could it be Fed produced an Fed-S and sold it much cheaper as a non-S ?
There might be other hidden S. |
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Jacques M.
France
2599 Posts |
Posted - Apr 17 2016 : 12:00:27 PM
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There is no mystery.
About the speeds, the main difference between a Fed S and a regular NKVD is the presence -or not- of a screw on the speed wheel.
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1742016_DSCF2366.JPG
Here, the "announced" speed is the 1/60th. Around, you have the different holes for the speeds from Z to 1/1000th. 9 in total, if I include the 1/60th.
The screw on the speed wheel prevents from reaching the 1/1000th. Here, the foreseen speed is 1/500th:
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1742016_DSCF2368.JPG
The NKVD which have a 1/1000th position simply lack this famous screw. Intentional or not, I don't know.
About having two notches for the same speed (the 1/500th, here), it is mechanically impossible.
Jacques.
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - Apr 17 2016 : 12:44:53 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
About having two notches for the same speed (the 1/500th, here), it is mechanically impossible.
I thought about that Jacques, but maybe somehow mechanically it could fall back to the 1/500 slot. A way a faker would try to make an 'S'. That's why I asked if a speed difference can be seen on the curtains.
I can't imagine Fed would have forgotten to engrave the '1000'. When testing the camera they should have noticed it and then it's not a big deal to change the speed dial. |
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Jacques M.
France
2599 Posts |
Posted - Apr 17 2016 : 2:55:11 PM
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"Thank you for your photos and explanations, Jacques!"
That said, your maybes are certainly right, Lenny! Maybe an error of the factory, maybe a fake, maybe a wrong re-mounting after repair...
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - Apr 17 2016 : 5:24:31 PM
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Thanks Jacques,
so every NKWD should have 1/1000 speed, only the ones which were more reliable were allowed to run 1/1000. Do you think so too Jacques?
And what did KMZ do, it seems in 1948 they didn't test which Fed-Zorkis were reliable enough to run 1/1000, they let all run 1/1000, till the Fed parts were used up.
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Edited by - Lenny on Apr 17 2016 6:03:18 PM |
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Jacques M.
France
2599 Posts |
Posted - Apr 18 2016 : 05:03:44 AM
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We must be more cautious.
My two photos are from 1d-s. Here is an other of my S-s, in fact my earliest (an early 1c).
As you can see, it has an other system...
Last thing. I won't post any more about that question. If we are not wise enough, we will have soon heaps of S-s for sale on the net.
Jacques. |
Edited by - Jacques M. on Apr 18 2016 05:04:58 AM |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - Apr 18 2016 : 06:41:16 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
We must be more cautious.
My two photos are from 1d-s. Here is an other of my S-s, in fact my earliest (an early 1c).
As you can see, it has an other system...
Thanks Jacques,
I think so too, and there already might be some of them. But for me, I really don't need 1/1000 and I'm not looking for them. Lenny is very humble  and can fall in love with some 1/500. 1948 Fed-Zorkis is another story because they mostly have 1/1000, but there are so many fakes as we just could see and I don't want to get cheated like Fred was. |
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Fred_L
France
226 Posts |
Posted - Apr 18 2016 : 07:35:01 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lenny
quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
We must be more cautious.
My two photos are from 1d-s. Here is an other of my S-s, in fact my earliest (an early 1c).
As you can see, it has an other system...
Thanks Jacques,
I think so too, and there already might be some of them. But for me, I really don't need 1/1000 and I'm not looking for them. Lenny is very humble and can fall in love with some 1/500. 1948 Fed-Zorkis is another story because they mostly have 1/1000, but there are so many fakes as we just could see and I don't want to get cheated like Fred was.
Hi all...
I think, as Lenny said, that each time we buy 1948 Fed/Zorki, we have the risk to buy a fake, especially on the web..
In fact, the problem is to fix at what price we consider getting cheated...
If price is more or less at regular Fed 1 B or C or NKVD price, I consider it is not a problem and I accept the risk.
These fakes are sometimes really nice and open new questions.. For instance, why my fake 1948 Fed Zorki came with (fake?)collapsible 1948 ZK???
Fred
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - Apr 18 2016 : 08:01:15 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Fred_L
I think, as Lenny said, that each time we buy 1948 Fed/Zorki, we have the risk to buy a fake, especially on the web..
In fact, the problem is to fix at what price we consider getting cheated...
If price is more or less at regular Fed 1 B or C or NKVD price, I consider it is not a problem and I accept the risk.
These fakes are sometimes really nice and open new questions. For instance, why my fake 1948 Fed Zorki came with (fake?)collapsible 1948 ZK???
Of course Fred, if it's not expensive there is not much risk, and if the lot includes an early Fed-2 you want to have, it's easy to make a decision.
The collapsible lens is nice too, but I know nothing about this type of lens and could not decide if real or not, but for the right price it would be nice to have even if it's not genuine. |
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Jacques M.
France
2599 Posts |
Posted - Apr 18 2016 : 12:35:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lenny
Lenny is very humble and can fall in love with some 1/500.
Ha ,ha!
You should have a special look at your lens, Fred. It is impossible to fake a collapsible Zeiss mount, and KMZ never produced them. Even if you don't have the Zeiss number, your lens has Zeiss origins.
About Fed-Zorkis, I am not sure we can always say "this one is genuine, this one is not". OK if the speed dial is wrong and the body is a Fed 1b's... But what about a cover with the engraving of a 1d or 1e Fed inside? We think that the 1/1000th mechanisms could have Fed origins. So, why not some Fed covers reingraved at KMZ's? Heresy? It's the case for numerous 1947/48 Kievs, more or less in the same conditions.
Concerning the shutter box, I have 8x1/500th before s/n 3000 in my data. And 3 more which are fakes, for sure. And many 1/1000th, of course.
Note that Guido has a very interesting article on his site concerning that question. But in German... anyway, it's better than Russian! |
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Lenny
496 Posts |
Posted - Apr 19 2016 : 3:48:23 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
About Fed-Zorkis, I am not sure we can always say "this one is genuine, this one is not". OK if the speed dial is wrong and the body is a Fed 1b's... But what about a cover with the engraving of a 1d or 1e Fed inside? We think that the 1/1000th mechanisms could have Fed origins. So, why not some Fed covers reingraved at KMZ's? Heresy? It's the case for numerous 1947/48 Kievs, more or less in the same conditions.
Concerning the shutter box, I have 8x1/500th before s/n 3000 in my data. And 3 more which are fakes, for sure. And many 1/1000th, of course.
That's an interesting way to see it Jacques, that more Fed parts could be used originally for Fed-Zorkis than only the shutter box and parts of the speed system.
Before #03000 I have 18 in my database with 1/500 and 12 of them I have marked as fakes. This decisions to mark them as fakes must not be accurate because of inexperience and I don't have all the pictures to check them again. But 2/3 of all of them makes me think that all 18 could be fakes, but I never had one of them in my hands. |
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Interesting compilation FED/Zorki
